USA .... quo vadis?

I can hardly believe this is going on in America. Things started going down hill when Clinton got elected, and then when George W. Bush got elected. Obama must be the most corrupt, or how else could things be so bad?

Welcome back to the forums.

A brief Google search on election-related "Red Mirages" highlighted a well-known and oft-reported possibility, once polls close tonight. The basic idea is that several states - Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, for example - will report their election day voting results before, perhaps well before, they report their early- and absentee voting results (since they didn't start counting early votes until today). Because the data suggest strongly that election day votes will trend strongly in the president's favor, while early- and absentee votes will trend strongly in Vice President Biden's favor, a "red mirage" will arise if people (and presidential candidates) interpret early, and therefore election day-heavy, results as evidence of a Trump lead/win. The president MIGHT end up winning those states, of course, but since the majority of the initial counted votes in such states will be mainly those cast on election-day, indications of a Trump advantage could well be a "mirage."

There is also the possibility of a "blue mirage." Florida, for example, is likely to report all of its early- and absentee vote totals well before it reports its final election-day votes. In that case, early results may trend toward Mr. Biden, but his lead may well be a "mirage," giving a false or misleading impression of a Biden lead/victory in the state.

The moral of the story: Don't count your electors before they're hatched. Election results in each state won't be final until ALL the votes - early, absentee, and election day - are counted. First returns tonight will not necessarily accurately predict final results.

Moral #2 of the story: While political partisans and conspiracy theorists might couch red and blue "mirages" as attempts to paint this election as "illegitimate," the truth is such mirages ARE a thing, but a thing that cautions patience as we wait for final election results, NOT a thing that declares the election's illegitimacy.

As I said in my previous post, welcome back to the forums.

My post to which you're apparently responding with these two sentences contained no accusations/suggestions of election illegitimacy or even irregularity. It contained what I intended to be an objective depiction of election day "mirages," both red ones and blue ones. Since the possibility of misleading early vote totals has been widely reported over the last month or so, I assumed the details I offered would not be controversial to an informed voter such as you.

Facts such as the ones I presented in my previous post do not fit well in categories such as "right" and "stupid." "Right," yes, because facts are, by definition, "right" (a.k.a. true). But "stupid," no.

Do you contest the accuracy of any part of my summary of red and blue "mirages"? Or is your post here simply an expression of your partisan political views?

This claim is really, really hard to defend given the president's repeated campaign claim that the only way he will lose the election is if it is "rigged," and the Republican Party's numerous efforts, in both state and federal courts, to get legitimately cast votes thrown out (Google 127,000 votes in Harris County, Texas, and the lawsuits brought in Pennsylvania) For an organization which you allege "does everything" to claim illegitimate vote counts, the Democratic Party sure hasn't filed many lawsuits. But then again, court dockets have been filled with GOP litigation.

Why didn't Hillary Clinton think of this objection four years ago?! Why, she just accepted her loss across three rust belt states by a cumulative total of 70,000 votes - in Michigan, by a SMALLER percentage than by which Biden will beat Trump. She didn't tweet about possible "violence in the streets." She didn't "claim" to win any states she hadn't actually won. She didn't ask to inspect ballots. She didn't even demand a recount! And worst of all, she conceded on election night, following the wimpy pattern of almost all previous losers of presidential elections (tells you why they were LOSERS, doesn't it?).

And to think all she would have had to do was post pictures of mail in stacked up cartons and call our attention to all the "mysterious votes showing up, all for (Republicans)." And even if THEY might not have thought we would notice, we would have!!

What might have been.

And there is NO evidence - NONE - that the Democrats are cheating now... as ballots are in the control of county and state boards of elections in the remaining undecided states.

• Of course, Eric Trump retweeted a QAnon conspiracy theory that Trump votes were being burned. The burned ballots turned out to be sample ballots, not Trump ballots.
• And perhaps lots of people promoted the falsehood attached to the image Wolfgang posted in another thread - that the image depicted discarded Trump ballots.

So yes, there are theories and accusations, but no proof.

Want evidence of the corrupt nature of the Trump campaign's current protests? They're suing to disrupt vote counts Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Georgia - where currently Trump leads - but NOT suing to disrupt the vote count in Arizona, where Trump currently trails. In his first claim of victory early Wednesday morning, Mr Trump demanded that the vote counting stop!... except in Arizona, where he trailed.

I guess the president believes they only "cheat" in states where he's behind.

He DID tell us during the campaign that the "only way" he'd lose is if the election were "rigged." So the logic is all but impermeable:

• He can only lose if the election is rigged
• He's losing
• Therefore, the election is rigged! And stop counting votes!... but only in states where the election is rigged (i.e. where he's losing)

The ONLY thing missing from Mr. Trump's elegant argument - and your single sentence claim - is evidence... because there is none.

@Bill_Coley our resident liberal hack, refuses to see what is going on. Bill how do 130k ballots show up in the middle of the night and every one of them are a vote for Biden? That is statistically impossible.

An artful dodge of the issue.

In a previous post you claimed that Biden had received "130k ballots [that showed] up in the middle of the night and every one of them are a vote for Biden." I then explained and documented the origin and resolution of approximately that number of Biden "votes" that briefly displayed in Michigan's returns until the correction of a clerical error in a single county. You asked how such "votes" could "show up in the middle of the night, and every one of them a vote for Biden." I proved both how they showed up and that they were promptly removed. Your post offers no comment on the now-established fact that there was NOTHING nefarious about the mistake, or on the fact that at least one of the people who launched concerns about those "votes" deleted her tweet once she learned the truth. In your previous post, you raised alarm, of sorts, about those votes. Don't you now owe us to comment directly on the FACTS of that matter?

I ask you again the questions I posed in my previous post: When it comes to those 130k Biden "votes," I took the time to investigate before reaching a conclusion. Did you? Did you do ANY additional research to verify the truthfulness of the claim before you posted it in this thread? Did you know, for example, about the corrected clerical error in Michigan when you posted? Or did you simply parrot what you had seen in your politically partisan newsfeeds?

And in your latest post you refer to other "mysterious 4am dumps...happening in other places as well, all for Biden." First, the vote "dump" you cited in a previous post didn't happen in the way your post seemed to purport it did. Second, give us links to credible news reports about these "mysterious 4am dumps." It's easy - and potentially corrosive to our body politic - to CLAIM misconduct. What you need to do - and won't be able to do in the current vote counting process - is to PROVE misconduct. Show us your evidence.

You claim Republicans are being kept out of vote counting centers. Everything I've heard about that alleged issue is that it is not true. Again, provide documentation for your claim.

And finally you claim the existence of boarded-up windows at vote counting centers. I can't find ANY evidence of that. Please provide documentation.

There's a theme to this post: You can't just CLAIM things, even if your favorite politically partisan "news" sources tell you they're true. You have to prove them, as in show that they're objectively true. Your first claim - about the Biden 130k votes - was not what you purported it to be. Now you have a chance to prove that your latest claims ARE what you claim them to be.

1. They refuse to let poll observers in.
2. Actually it has been proven, NOT debunked.
3. Anyone of them that made the accusation.
4. It was a baseless impeachment with zero evidence required for impeachment.
5. Bi-Partisan? When the Secstate of PA says Trump doesn't deserve the title President? That's Bi-Partisan? No. They are keeping Trumps people out and boarding up windows. And the President is not trying to stop the counts. He is trying to stop UNOBSERVED counts.

As you say, facts matter.

THIS IS AN ILLEGAL FRAUDULENT ELECTION.

I won't play the "whack-a-mole" game with you, Wolfgang, in which I debunk every conspiracy theory you post in these forums. In part, I won't play that game because there will be no end to such theories now that Joe Biden is the presumptive president-elect, and I have other things to do with my time than address a steady stream of baseless claims. But I also won't play that game with you because of your long-established practice of refusing even to mention, let alone directly engage, the questions or considerations I raise to you on matters related to politics and government. Time after time and time after time over our years together in these forums, you have refused even to acknowledge the existence of questions I asked in my responses to your conspiracy theories.

So, I won't play whack-a-mole with you, but as a template for what would be my response to all of your future conspiracy theories, I offer the following in response to your "interesting facts" post:

1. Mr Roberts claims that the 138,000-0 vote addition in Biden's favor occurred "during the early hours of morning when no one was watching." If no one was watching, how was it discovered and corrected? Isn't the fact that the state corrected the error proof that someone was watching?
2. Roberts asks, "How does the BBC know that the sudden jump in votes for Biden wasn’t fraud that when exposed was explained away by crooked officials as a “data entry error”? In form, Roberts's question can convert ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING into a conspiracy theory: How do we know Wolfgang hasn't murdered three dozen people during his lifetime? How do we know Donald Trump doesn't use his daily "executive time" to plot a one world government over which he would be the dictator? The only defense against such absurdity is this question: What's your proof? In the case of the 138,000 votes, there is NO proof of fraud - none - because none occurred.
3. Roberts then claims that "the exact same thing occurred in neighboring Wisconsin at about the same time. So we had two simultaneous “data entry errors” in two critical contested states that wiped out Trump’s lead? How likely is that?" It's not likely at all, at least in this case... because it didn't happen. Wisconsin simply reported its absentee and early votes, which as any objective observer of the American election knows, have leaned decidedly toward Biden because Democrats voted early and by mail FAR, FAR, FAR more than did Republicans (recall that throughout his campaign Mr. Trump told his followers to vote in person, and not to trust voting by mail) There is NO evidence - none - that "the exact same thing" happened in Wisconsin because what happened in Wisconsin was a report of votes that reflected the political reality of absentee/mail-in vs. in-person voting this year (AND there was no Wisconsin vote update in which Mr Biden received ALL of the reported votes... which by definition means what happened in Wisconsin was not "the exact same thing" as happened in the Michigan clerical error).
4. Finally, Mr Roberts claims that, "correcting the “data entry error” did not result in the reappearance of Trump’s lead. So how was the error corrected?" Examine the every two hour Michigan vote count that was part of the article to which I previously linked:

IF the 138,000-0 vote dump was not corrected, in that graph there should be a time frame that reports a significant increase in votes for Biden but hardly any for Mr Trump. There is no such time period. Mr Trump's vote count increases every two hours, and at about the pace we would expect given his performance in previous periods. Ergo, the 138,000 vote error WAS corrected.

BOTTOM LINE: Mr Roberts's claims are baseless and false, as is the entire conspiracy theory you raise by your post, Wolfgang. There is NO evidence - NONE - to support the claim because NOTHING fraudulent happened. It was a mistake that election officials found and corrected, full stop. But of course, that's the nature of conspiracy theories. There is NEVER any evidence to support them because they are ALWAYS baseless and false.

Because you have a long history of trafficking in and posting baseless and false conspiracy theories in these forums, I fully expect that you will post additional ones going forward; such is your right. As you do, somewhere in the back of your mind remember that if I wanted to, I could likely debunk every single one of your theories, and in response, if our shared posting history is any indication, you wouldn't even MENTION, let alone directly engage, the substance of my debunking posts. Why not? 1) That's your approach to questions and assertions of fact that dispute your points of view - you refuse even to acknowledge their existence; 2) My debunking posts would be based on facts and truth, and that's a field on which no conspiracy theory dares to tread.

You won't because he is not. THis is a fraud.

There is plenty of evidence of the Fraud, you refuse to see it. You are a liberal hack an the ultimate idiot.