Christians and violence?
I believe God controls all whether good or bad. So it is no accident that nuclear weapons exist, or Radicalism, or guns and weapons for mass killing that fall into the hands of crack pots. God visits each sinner with death at their appointed time.
But scripture also tells us the love of many Christians will grow cold throughout the times of tribulation blanketing the world. And this would include our love for enemies. Do we fight against God when he places us in harm's way? Do we trust that he will not tempt us above what we are able? Or that our death leads to far greater bliss than this world can ever provide? Do we trust that shunning violence as Jesus and the Apostles did, while undergoing the most horrible deaths at the hands of sinners, will not also work for us a far greater work in glory?
I know that my time will come. Nothing will speed it up or prevent it. I only hope to be living the Sermon on the Mount, wise as a serpent but harmless as a dove, when it does.
Comments
-
Dave I understand where you are coming from but I find it misguided. Here is a good article on Self Defense and whether or not it is biblical.
-
Thanks for the link. But I think it comes down to a matter of conscience. It would bother some not to use violence to meet violence. And others it would bother the conscience to use violence. I've held both positions based on my understanding of scripture at the time. So I cannot dictate non-resistance as a course of action for Christians, but as a challenge and a goal to press towards.
-
@Dave_L said:
Thanks for the link. But I think it comes down to a matter of conscience. It would bother some not to use violence to meet violence. And others it would bother the conscience to use violence. I've held both positions based on my understanding of scripture at the time. So I cannot dictate non-resistance as a course of action for Christians, but as a challenge and a goal to press towards.I agree on the matter of conscience and I appreciate you saying that. I had gathered that you wanted to force your view on everyone based on other posts so this makes me feel a lot better.
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Thanks for the link. But I think it comes down to a matter of conscience. It would bother some not to use violence to meet violence. And others it would bother the conscience to use violence. I've held both positions based on my understanding of scripture at the time. So I cannot dictate non-resistance as a course of action for Christians, but as a challenge and a goal to press towards.I agree on the matter of conscience and I appreciate you saying that. I had gathered that you wanted to force your view on everyone based on other posts so this makes me feel a lot better.
The Sermon on the Mount did me well over the years. And I hope if God ever puts me to the supreme test of non violence, he will give me the grace to remain faithful.
-
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Thanks for the link. But I think it comes down to a matter of conscience. It would bother some not to use violence to meet violence. And others it would bother the conscience to use violence. I've held both positions based on my understanding of scripture at the time. So I cannot dictate non-resistance as a course of action for Christians, but as a challenge and a goal to press towards.I agree on the matter of conscience and I appreciate you saying that. I had gathered that you wanted to force your view on everyone based on other posts so this makes me feel a lot better.
The Sermon on the Mount did me well over the years. And I hope if God ever puts me to the supreme test of non violence, he will give me the grace to remain faithful.
And we are back to me thinking you view that as the only proper view....
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Thanks for the link. But I think it comes down to a matter of conscience. It would bother some not to use violence to meet violence. And others it would bother the conscience to use violence. I've held both positions based on my understanding of scripture at the time. So I cannot dictate non-resistance as a course of action for Christians, but as a challenge and a goal to press towards.I agree on the matter of conscience and I appreciate you saying that. I had gathered that you wanted to force your view on everyone based on other posts so this makes me feel a lot better.
The Sermon on the Mount did me well over the years. And I hope if God ever puts me to the supreme test of non violence, he will give me the grace to remain faithful.
And we are back to me thinking you view that as the only proper view....
It takes great strength and courage to live the Sermon. But weakness is not the unpardonable sin.
-
@Dave_L said:
But scripture also tells us the love of many Christians will grow cold throughout the times of tribulation blanketing the world. And this would include our love for enemies. Do we fight against God when he places us in harm's way? Do we trust that he will not tempt us above what we are able? Or that our death leads to far greater bliss than this world can ever provide? Do we trust that shunning violence as Jesus and the Apostles did, while undergoing the most horrible deaths at the hands of sinners, will not also work for us a far greater work in glory?
I know that my time will come. Nothing will speed it up or prevent it. I only hope to be living the Sermon on the Mount, wise as a serpent but harmless as a dove, when it does.
Dave,
This part of your post I and many can relate. The essence of to "living the Sermon on the Mount" is to do God's will (Matt 5-7).God will keep you. "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it" (1 Corinthians 10:13).
-- "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21:36).
"I know that my time will come..."
Until that day and hour, take hope. As Jesus promised the earlier disciples and it is applicable to believers today; "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid" (John 14:27). Love, Joy, Peace! CM
-
@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
But scripture also tells us the love of many Christians will grow cold throughout the times of tribulation blanketing the world. And this would include our love for enemies. Do we fight against God when he places us in harm's way? Do we trust that he will not tempt us above what we are able? Or that our death leads to far greater bliss than this world can ever provide? Do we trust that shunning violence as Jesus and the Apostles did, while undergoing the most horrible deaths at the hands of sinners, will not also work for us a far greater work in glory?
I know that my time will come. Nothing will speed it up or prevent it. I only hope to be living the Sermon on the Mount, wise as a serpent but harmless as a dove, when it does.
Dave,
This part of your post I and many can relate. The essence of to "living the Sermon on the Mount" is to do God's will (Matt 5-7).God will keep you. "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it" (1 Corinthians 10:13).
-- "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21:36).
"I know that my time will come..."
Until that day and hour, take hope. As Jesus promised the earlier disciples and it is applicable to believers today; "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid" (John 14:27). Love, Joy, Peace! CM
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. One thing that helps me love enemies and to pity them as they afflict me, is that they are victims too. Knowing God is behind all that they do working it for their bad, just as he works it for my good. Once you grasp this, loving enemies becomes genuine and not just a legalistic requirement we must act out reluctantly. And you can't hate God for it knowing all that he does is Just and right, and for our good.
-
Trying to think of an enemy....
-
@GaoLu said:
Trying to think of an enemy....You've never been persecuted as a Christian?
-
Well, how do you define "persecuted?" This is a god question.
-
@GaoLu said:
Well, how do you define "persecuted?" This is a god question.GaoLu,
Are you saying this is a "good question" or a "God question?Regardless, both Christians and non-Christians alike are shocked with how much suffering and persecution is happening and going on in the world today. We should not be surprised because persecution is not a new problem. Persecution and intolerance are commonly associated and that one develops out of the other. Persecution in its varied forms is the development of a principle based on two opposing ideas that cannot reach a compromise, where the followers of one side do not tolerate the other side.
Christians in the early church have had to suffer terrible penalties for being followers of Christ. They were jailed, fed to lions, and even burned alive. Now Matthew 5:10-12 says, “Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness.” Then it goes on to say, “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you falsely, and all kinds of evil against you.”
What is the opposite of religious freedom? The answer is, “religious persecution.” While religious freedom is a gift of God, a mark of His great love for humanity, persecution bears the signature of the Devil.
Persecution is also part of the whole Christian “package,” in much the same way
that illness and death are a part of our human heritage. It is a reality we cannot avoid—it is an inevitable by-product of the battle between God and the enemy of truth. The apostle Paul wrote that “everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted” (2 Tim 3:12).Persecution Language Permeating the Book of Revelation
The Book of Revelation contains many references to persecution and suffering. The theme permeates the book. Although the word “to persecute” (diōkō) is found just once in Revelation—the dragon persecutes the pure woman, the church (Rev 12:13). There is so much to mine. Say so, if interested. CM
-- See Robert H. Mounce, The Book of Revelation, revised edition. New International Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Wm B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1998), 231-232.
-
Oops...."good."
Regardless, both Christians and non-Christians alike are shocked with how much suffering and persecution is happening and going on in the world today. We should not be surprised because persecution is not a new problem. Persecution and intolerance are commonly associated and that one develops out of the other. Persecution in its varied forms is the development of a principle based on two opposing ideas that cannot reach a compromise, where the followers of one side do not tolerate the other side.
Christians in the early church have had to suffer terrible penalties for being followers of Christ. They were jailed, fed to lions, and even burned alive. Now Matthew 5:10-12 says, “Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness.” Then it goes on to say, “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you falsely, and all kinds of evil against you.”
What is the opposite of religious freedom? The answer is, “religious persecution.” While religious freedom is a gift of God, a mark of His great love for humanity, persecution bears the signature of the Devil.
Persecution is also part of the whole Christian “package,” in much the same way
that illness and death are a part of our human heritage. It is a reality we cannot avoid—it is an inevitable by-product of the battle between God and the enemy of truth. The apostle Paul wrote that “everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted” (2 Tim 3:12).Persecution Language Permeating the Book of Revelation
The Book of Revelation contains many references to persecution and suffering. The theme permeates the book. Although the word “to persecute” (diōkō) is found just once in Revelation—the dragon persecutes the pure woman, the church (Rev 12:13). There is so much to mine. Say so, if interested. CM
-- See Robert H. Mounce, The Book of Revelation, revised edition. New International Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids: Wm B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1998), 231-232.
-
@GaoLu said:
Well, how do you define "persecuted?" This is a god question.“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” (2 Timothy 3:12)
In a number of languages the equivalent of ‘to persecute’ is simply ‘to cause to suffer,’ but persecution is also expressed in terms of ‘to be mean to’ or ‘to threaten’ or ‘to chase from place to place.’
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 498). New York: United Bible Societies.
-
Given that definition, the answer is an unequivocal yes.
