Are Guns for Cowards?
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?
Comments
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@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
Can you point to an example in the NT where Jesus or his followers killed anyone protecting others or themselves? We have many examples where they did not.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
Can you point to an example in the NT where Jesus or his followers killed anyone protecting others or themselves? We have many examples where they did not.
No but I can point to verses where the Bible permits it, however I cannot point to one verse where the Bible prohibits it.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
Can you point to an example in the NT where Jesus or his followers killed anyone protecting others or themselves? We have many examples where they did not.
No but I can point to verses where the Bible permits it, however I cannot point to one verse where the Bible prohibits it.
The Sermon prohibits physical resistance of evil and nowhere does the NT permit Christians to kill people.
-
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
Can you point to an example in the NT where Jesus or his followers killed anyone protecting others or themselves? We have many examples where they did not.
No but I can point to verses where the Bible permits it, however I cannot point to one verse where the Bible prohibits it.
The Sermon prohibits physical resistance of evil and nowhere does the NT permit Christians to kill people.
Not it does not prohibit resistance. I've already shown you that, you disagree, and that is fine but you can't say 100% it prohibits it. And, in case you haven't noticed, the NT isn't the only Scriptures.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
Can you point to an example in the NT where Jesus or his followers killed anyone protecting others or themselves? We have many examples where they did not.
No but I can point to verses where the Bible permits it, however I cannot point to one verse where the Bible prohibits it.
The Sermon prohibits physical resistance of evil and nowhere does the NT permit Christians to kill people.
Not it does not prohibit resistance. I've already shown you that, you disagree, and that is fine but you can't say 100% it prohibits it. And, in case you haven't noticed, the NT isn't the only Scriptures.
You must appeal to the Old Covenant to support violence. But Christ abolished the Old Covenant replacing it with the New. And the Sermon on the Mount forms the backbone of all NT ethics. In it we must not (physically) resist evil, or return violence for violence. And we must love enemies. And as Paul says the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
Can you point to an example in the NT where Jesus or his followers killed anyone protecting others or themselves? We have many examples where they did not.
No but I can point to verses where the Bible permits it, however I cannot point to one verse where the Bible prohibits it.
The Sermon prohibits physical resistance of evil and nowhere does the NT permit Christians to kill people.
Not it does not prohibit resistance. I've already shown you that, you disagree, and that is fine but you can't say 100% it prohibits it. And, in case you haven't noticed, the NT isn't the only Scriptures.
You must appeal to the Old Covenant to support violence. But Christ abolished the Old Covenant replacing it with the New. And the Sermon on the Mount forms the backbone of all NT ethics. In it we must not (physically) resist evil, or return violence for violence. And we must love enemies. And as Paul says the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual.
That is your opinion.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
Can you point to an example in the NT where Jesus or his followers killed anyone protecting others or themselves? We have many examples where they did not.
No but I can point to verses where the Bible permits it, however I cannot point to one verse where the Bible prohibits it.
The Sermon prohibits physical resistance of evil and nowhere does the NT permit Christians to kill people.
Not it does not prohibit resistance. I've already shown you that, you disagree, and that is fine but you can't say 100% it prohibits it. And, in case you haven't noticed, the NT isn't the only Scriptures.
You must appeal to the Old Covenant to support violence. But Christ abolished the Old Covenant replacing it with the New. And the Sermon on the Mount forms the backbone of all NT ethics. In it we must not (physically) resist evil, or return violence for violence. And we must love enemies. And as Paul says the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual.
That is your opinion.
It is not my opinion. The NT fully supports my position.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
Can you point to an example in the NT where Jesus or his followers killed anyone protecting others or themselves? We have many examples where they did not.
No but I can point to verses where the Bible permits it, however I cannot point to one verse where the Bible prohibits it.
The Sermon prohibits physical resistance of evil and nowhere does the NT permit Christians to kill people.
Not it does not prohibit resistance. I've already shown you that, you disagree, and that is fine but you can't say 100% it prohibits it. And, in case you haven't noticed, the NT isn't the only Scriptures.
You must appeal to the Old Covenant to support violence. But Christ abolished the Old Covenant replacing it with the New. And the Sermon on the Mount forms the backbone of all NT ethics. In it we must not (physically) resist evil, or return violence for violence. And we must love enemies. And as Paul says the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual.
That is your opinion.
It is not my opinion. The NT fully supports my position.
That is your opinion, others are of a different opinion.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
Can you point to an example in the NT where Jesus or his followers killed anyone protecting others or themselves? We have many examples where they did not.
No but I can point to verses where the Bible permits it, however I cannot point to one verse where the Bible prohibits it.
The Sermon prohibits physical resistance of evil and nowhere does the NT permit Christians to kill people.
Not it does not prohibit resistance. I've already shown you that, you disagree, and that is fine but you can't say 100% it prohibits it. And, in case you haven't noticed, the NT isn't the only Scriptures.
You must appeal to the Old Covenant to support violence. But Christ abolished the Old Covenant replacing it with the New. And the Sermon on the Mount forms the backbone of all NT ethics. In it we must not (physically) resist evil, or return violence for violence. And we must love enemies. And as Paul says the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual.
That is your opinion.
It is not my opinion. The NT fully supports my position.
That is your opinion, others are of a different opinion.
I offer no opinion. Only Christs' words in the Sermon on the Mount. And the fact that nowhere in the NT do we see them compromising his teaching.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
Can you point to an example in the NT where Jesus or his followers killed anyone protecting others or themselves? We have many examples where they did not.
No but I can point to verses where the Bible permits it, however I cannot point to one verse where the Bible prohibits it.
The Sermon prohibits physical resistance of evil and nowhere does the NT permit Christians to kill people.
Not it does not prohibit resistance. I've already shown you that, you disagree, and that is fine but you can't say 100% it prohibits it. And, in case you haven't noticed, the NT isn't the only Scriptures.
You must appeal to the Old Covenant to support violence. But Christ abolished the Old Covenant replacing it with the New. And the Sermon on the Mount forms the backbone of all NT ethics. In it we must not (physically) resist evil, or return violence for violence. And we must love enemies. And as Paul says the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual.
That is your opinion.
It is not my opinion. The NT fully supports my position.
That is your opinion, others are of a different opinion.
I offer no opinion. Only Christs' words in the Sermon on the Mount. And the fact that nowhere in the NT do we see them compromising his teaching.
Your opinion is where you ignore the Old Testament and say that Christ is prohbiting self defense in all situations. That is opinion that is debated by many.
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
Can you point to an example in the NT where Jesus or his followers killed anyone protecting others or themselves? We have many examples where they did not.
No but I can point to verses where the Bible permits it, however I cannot point to one verse where the Bible prohibits it.
The Sermon prohibits physical resistance of evil and nowhere does the NT permit Christians to kill people.
Not it does not prohibit resistance. I've already shown you that, you disagree, and that is fine but you can't say 100% it prohibits it. And, in case you haven't noticed, the NT isn't the only Scriptures.
You must appeal to the Old Covenant to support violence. But Christ abolished the Old Covenant replacing it with the New. And the Sermon on the Mount forms the backbone of all NT ethics. In it we must not (physically) resist evil, or return violence for violence. And we must love enemies. And as Paul says the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual.
That is your opinion.
It is not my opinion. The NT fully supports my position.
That is your opinion, others are of a different opinion.
I offer no opinion. Only Christs' words in the Sermon on the Mount. And the fact that nowhere in the NT do we see them compromising his teaching.
Your opinion is where you ignore the Old Testament and say that Christ is prohbiting self defense in all situations. That is opinion that is debated by many.
I think we should remove ourselves from those who soft pedal the Sermon on the Mount. Especially when they lead others to do the exact opposite. John says: “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ [Sermon on the Mount], hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” (2 John 9–11)
-
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
Can you point to an example in the NT where Jesus or his followers killed anyone protecting others or themselves? We have many examples where they did not.
No but I can point to verses where the Bible permits it, however I cannot point to one verse where the Bible prohibits it.
The Sermon prohibits physical resistance of evil and nowhere does the NT permit Christians to kill people.
Not it does not prohibit resistance. I've already shown you that, you disagree, and that is fine but you can't say 100% it prohibits it. And, in case you haven't noticed, the NT isn't the only Scriptures.
You must appeal to the Old Covenant to support violence. But Christ abolished the Old Covenant replacing it with the New. And the Sermon on the Mount forms the backbone of all NT ethics. In it we must not (physically) resist evil, or return violence for violence. And we must love enemies. And as Paul says the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual.
That is your opinion.
It is not my opinion. The NT fully supports my position.
That is your opinion, others are of a different opinion.
I offer no opinion. Only Christs' words in the Sermon on the Mount. And the fact that nowhere in the NT do we see them compromising his teaching.
Your opinion is where you ignore the Old Testament and say that Christ is prohbiting self defense in all situations. That is opinion that is debated by many.
I think we should remove ourselves from those who soft pedal the Sermon on the Mount. Especially when they lead others to do the exact opposite. John says: “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ [Sermon on the Mount], hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” (2 John 9–11)
I am telling you that the Sermon on the Mount does nothing of the sort to prohibit self-defense. The OT permits self-defense. In the SOTM Jesus is talking about revenge, not defense.
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
Can you point to an example in the NT where Jesus or his followers killed anyone protecting others or themselves? We have many examples where they did not.
No but I can point to verses where the Bible permits it, however I cannot point to one verse where the Bible prohibits it.
The Sermon prohibits physical resistance of evil and nowhere does the NT permit Christians to kill people.
Not it does not prohibit resistance. I've already shown you that, you disagree, and that is fine but you can't say 100% it prohibits it. And, in case you haven't noticed, the NT isn't the only Scriptures.
You must appeal to the Old Covenant to support violence. But Christ abolished the Old Covenant replacing it with the New. And the Sermon on the Mount forms the backbone of all NT ethics. In it we must not (physically) resist evil, or return violence for violence. And we must love enemies. And as Paul says the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual.
That is your opinion.
It is not my opinion. The NT fully supports my position.
That is your opinion, others are of a different opinion.
I offer no opinion. Only Christs' words in the Sermon on the Mount. And the fact that nowhere in the NT do we see them compromising his teaching.
Your opinion is where you ignore the Old Testament and say that Christ is prohbiting self defense in all situations. That is opinion that is debated by many.
I think we should remove ourselves from those who soft pedal the Sermon on the Mount. Especially when they lead others to do the exact opposite. John says: “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ [Sermon on the Mount], hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” (2 John 9–11)
I am telling you that the Sermon on the Mount does nothing of the sort to prohibit self-defense. The OT permits self-defense. In the SOTM Jesus is talking about revenge, not defense.
You are not following Christ if you think killing enemies is permissible.
-
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
Can you point to an example in the NT where Jesus or his followers killed anyone protecting others or themselves? We have many examples where they did not.
No but I can point to verses where the Bible permits it, however I cannot point to one verse where the Bible prohibits it.
The Sermon prohibits physical resistance of evil and nowhere does the NT permit Christians to kill people.
Not it does not prohibit resistance. I've already shown you that, you disagree, and that is fine but you can't say 100% it prohibits it. And, in case you haven't noticed, the NT isn't the only Scriptures.
You must appeal to the Old Covenant to support violence. But Christ abolished the Old Covenant replacing it with the New. And the Sermon on the Mount forms the backbone of all NT ethics. In it we must not (physically) resist evil, or return violence for violence. And we must love enemies. And as Paul says the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual.
That is your opinion.
It is not my opinion. The NT fully supports my position.
That is your opinion, others are of a different opinion.
I offer no opinion. Only Christs' words in the Sermon on the Mount. And the fact that nowhere in the NT do we see them compromising his teaching.
Your opinion is where you ignore the Old Testament and say that Christ is prohbiting self defense in all situations. That is opinion that is debated by many.
I think we should remove ourselves from those who soft pedal the Sermon on the Mount. Especially when they lead others to do the exact opposite. John says: “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ [Sermon on the Mount], hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” (2 John 9–11)
I am telling you that the Sermon on the Mount does nothing of the sort to prohibit self-defense. The OT permits self-defense. In the SOTM Jesus is talking about revenge, not defense.
You are not following Christ if you think killing enemies is permissible.
That is your opinion.
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
Can you point to an example in the NT where Jesus or his followers killed anyone protecting others or themselves? We have many examples where they did not.
No but I can point to verses where the Bible permits it, however I cannot point to one verse where the Bible prohibits it.
The Sermon prohibits physical resistance of evil and nowhere does the NT permit Christians to kill people.
Not it does not prohibit resistance. I've already shown you that, you disagree, and that is fine but you can't say 100% it prohibits it. And, in case you haven't noticed, the NT isn't the only Scriptures.
You must appeal to the Old Covenant to support violence. But Christ abolished the Old Covenant replacing it with the New. And the Sermon on the Mount forms the backbone of all NT ethics. In it we must not (physically) resist evil, or return violence for violence. And we must love enemies. And as Paul says the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual.
That is your opinion.
It is not my opinion. The NT fully supports my position.
That is your opinion, others are of a different opinion.
I offer no opinion. Only Christs' words in the Sermon on the Mount. And the fact that nowhere in the NT do we see them compromising his teaching.
Your opinion is where you ignore the Old Testament and say that Christ is prohbiting self defense in all situations. That is opinion that is debated by many.
I think we should remove ourselves from those who soft pedal the Sermon on the Mount. Especially when they lead others to do the exact opposite. John says: “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ [Sermon on the Mount], hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” (2 John 9–11)
I am telling you that the Sermon on the Mount does nothing of the sort to prohibit self-defense. The OT permits self-defense. In the SOTM Jesus is talking about revenge, not defense.
You are not following Christ if you think killing enemies is permissible.
That is your opinion.
It is not my opinion. I would gladly cower behind a gun if Jesus didn't teach otherwise.
-
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
Can you point to an example in the NT where Jesus or his followers killed anyone protecting others or themselves? We have many examples where they did not.
No but I can point to verses where the Bible permits it, however I cannot point to one verse where the Bible prohibits it.
The Sermon prohibits physical resistance of evil and nowhere does the NT permit Christians to kill people.
Not it does not prohibit resistance. I've already shown you that, you disagree, and that is fine but you can't say 100% it prohibits it. And, in case you haven't noticed, the NT isn't the only Scriptures.
You must appeal to the Old Covenant to support violence. But Christ abolished the Old Covenant replacing it with the New. And the Sermon on the Mount forms the backbone of all NT ethics. In it we must not (physically) resist evil, or return violence for violence. And we must love enemies. And as Paul says the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual.
That is your opinion.
It is not my opinion. The NT fully supports my position.
That is your opinion, others are of a different opinion.
I offer no opinion. Only Christs' words in the Sermon on the Mount. And the fact that nowhere in the NT do we see them compromising his teaching.
Your opinion is where you ignore the Old Testament and say that Christ is prohbiting self defense in all situations. That is opinion that is debated by many.
I think we should remove ourselves from those who soft pedal the Sermon on the Mount. Especially when they lead others to do the exact opposite. John says: “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ [Sermon on the Mount], hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” (2 John 9–11)
I am telling you that the Sermon on the Mount does nothing of the sort to prohibit self-defense. The OT permits self-defense. In the SOTM Jesus is talking about revenge, not defense.
You are not following Christ if you think killing enemies is permissible.
That is your opinion.
It is not my opinion. I would gladly cower behind a gun if Jesus didn't teach otherwise.
It is an opinion Dave. A bad one, but an opinion nonetheless.
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
Obviously, the crackpots using guns would never think of picking a fair fight. But how about those who cling to them and trust in them? In my experience it takes more courage not to own a gun than it does to own one. And I think of the early church, many of whom faced grizzly deaths upholding Christ's admonitions for loving enemies and his words more than their own lives. And the Apostles who paid with their lives refusing to use violence against others. What do you think?Hogwash
I'm just saying the Sermon on the Mount separates the men from the boys.
I'm saying you misapply the SOM
The Apostles and early church lived and died by it. Jesus lived and died according to it leaving us an example to follow. Did he and the Apostles, or early church mislead us?
I think you are confusing persecution for personal religious beliefs and defense of the innocent.
I don't think the Sermon allows for this. We must love God more than violence.
Self defense is not about loving violence Dave. You are being utterly ridiculous with your definitions.
People always turn to what they trust in most. Money lovers always turn to money. Gun lovers always turn to violence.
That's simply just not true. I am a gun lover, but I don't always turn to violence. Here is a shocker, I don't even own a gun. But I love shooting guns. It's fun, relaxing, and just cool. So you shouldn't make ridiculous generalizations.
Can you point to an example in the NT where Jesus or his followers killed anyone protecting others or themselves? We have many examples where they did not.
No but I can point to verses where the Bible permits it, however I cannot point to one verse where the Bible prohibits it.
The Sermon prohibits physical resistance of evil and nowhere does the NT permit Christians to kill people.
Not it does not prohibit resistance. I've already shown you that, you disagree, and that is fine but you can't say 100% it prohibits it. And, in case you haven't noticed, the NT isn't the only Scriptures.
You must appeal to the Old Covenant to support violence. But Christ abolished the Old Covenant replacing it with the New. And the Sermon on the Mount forms the backbone of all NT ethics. In it we must not (physically) resist evil, or return violence for violence. And we must love enemies. And as Paul says the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but spiritual.
That is your opinion.
It is not my opinion. The NT fully supports my position.
That is your opinion, others are of a different opinion.
I offer no opinion. Only Christs' words in the Sermon on the Mount. And the fact that nowhere in the NT do we see them compromising his teaching.
Your opinion is where you ignore the Old Testament and say that Christ is prohbiting self defense in all situations. That is opinion that is debated by many.
I think we should remove ourselves from those who soft pedal the Sermon on the Mount. Especially when they lead others to do the exact opposite. John says: “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ [Sermon on the Mount], hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” (2 John 9–11)
I am telling you that the Sermon on the Mount does nothing of the sort to prohibit self-defense. The OT permits self-defense. In the SOTM Jesus is talking about revenge, not defense.
You are not following Christ if you think killing enemies is permissible.
That is your opinion.
It is not my opinion. I would gladly cower behind a gun if Jesus didn't teach otherwise.
It is an opinion Dave. A bad one, but an opinion nonetheless.
If you can overthrow Jesus' words, I know of several guns I'd like to trust in more than God. That is, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
Post edited by Dave_L on
