Can the public bear arms against the Civil Magistrate without sinning, according to the bible?

Dave_L

Many gun enthusiasts think their calling is to overthrow government should some justifiable reason happen. But this is not in line with scripture. Under the New Covenant, God ordained the Civil Magistrates to bear the sword against evildoers. But never did he ordain the people to bear the sword against evil magistrates.

Romans chapter thirteen begins: “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” (Romans 13:1–4)

Paul does not say here people in general are the Civil Magistrate, he speaks to people in the second person. And he speaks of the Magistrate in the third person.

God also placed the Civil Magistrate in control of any sent for punishing evildoers. Peter says: “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.” (1 Peter 2:13–14)

This means if any person or group with a private arsenal wishes to use them on others, they cannot do so independently of the Civil Magistrate. They obviously cannot use them against the magistrate.

During Christ's ministry, vigilante groups staged many revolts. Indeed, after Peter used his newly bought sword to cut off Malchus’ ear, they framed Jesus for being a vigilante. And this fulfilled the prophecy about them numbering Jesus with the transgressors. But, being innocent of the charges, Jesus rebuked Peter for using the sword vigilante style and restored the ear.

Later James brings those, probably the Zealots, to task for waring against the system saying:

“From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.” (James 4:1–3)

Paul says, the weapons of our warfare are not carnal (2 Corinthians 10:4). And to pray for rulers that we might live in peace (1 Timothy 2:1–2).

Jesus and the early Christians, and later many Anabaptists gave us examples to follow. In the face of violence. They refused to fight. They instead left homes, families, jobs, and belongings, and many gave up life itself, refusing to compromise Christ.

[Deleted User]

@Dave_L said:
Many gun enthusiasts think their calling is to overthrow government should some justifiable reason happen. But this is not in line with scripture. Under the New Covenant, God ordained the Civil Magistrates to bear the sword against evildoers. But never did he ordain the people to bear the sword against evil magistrates.

I consider this idea a false interpretation of Rom 13:1ff ...

The passage does NOT say that civil magistrates are ordained of God, it does state that there are "higher powers" which are ordained of God, and the church is to submit to those powers ordained of God.

Obviously, Hitler was not ordained of God ... else those who joined in his crimes were doing God's will while those who opposed him were violating God's will.
USA presidents are not ordained of God, they are elected in a presidential election .... just have a look at their fruit and you will know that most (if not all) were opposed to God, no matter how many "nice words" they put out and how "religious" they were.

dct112685

@Wolfgang said:

@Dave_L said:
Many gun enthusiasts think their calling is to overthrow government should some justifiable reason happen. But this is not in line with scripture. Under the New Covenant, God ordained the Civil Magistrates to bear the sword against evildoers. But never did he ordain the people to bear the sword against evil magistrates.

I consider this idea a false interpretation of Rom 13:1ff ...

The passage does NOT say that civil magistrates are ordained of God, it does state that there are "higher powers" which are ordained of God, and the church is to submit to those powers ordained of God.

Obviously, Hitler was not ordained of God ... else those who joined in his crimes were doing God's will while those who opposed him were violating God's will.
USA presidents are not ordained of God, they are elected in a presidential election .... just have a look at their fruit and you will know that most (if not all) were opposed to God, no matter how many "nice words" they put out and how "religious" they were.

I agree with you Wolfgang. @Dave_L you should really re-read, re-study, and re-think your interpretation of Romans 13. Your interpretation is not Biblical.

Dave_L

@Wolfgang said:

@Dave_L said:
Many gun enthusiasts think their calling is to overthrow government should some justifiable reason happen. But this is not in line with scripture. Under the New Covenant, God ordained the Civil Magistrates to bear the sword against evildoers. But never did he ordain the people to bear the sword against evil magistrates.

I consider this idea a false interpretation of Rom 13:1ff ...

The passage does NOT say that civil magistrates are ordained of God, it does state that there are "higher powers" which are ordained of God, and the church is to submit to those powers ordained of God.

Obviously, Hitler was not ordained of God ... else those who joined in his crimes were doing God's will while those who opposed him were violating God's will.
USA presidents are not ordained of God, they are elected in a presidential election .... just have a look at their fruit and you will know that most (if not all) were opposed to God, no matter how many "nice words" they put out and how "religious" they were.

I hope you do not wind up like Nebuchadnezzar. “This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.” (Daniel 4:17)

“Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,” (Titus 3:1)

And ..............

“For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:” (Romans 13:3)

Rulers = Power in Romans 13:3

ἄρχω, used as subst.: one who is in a position of leadership, esp. in a civic capacity.
① one who has eminence in a ruling capacity, ruler, lord, prince
ⓐ of earthly figures, οἱ ἄ. τῶν ἐθνῶν Mt 20:25; cp. B 9:3 (Is 1:10); οἱ ἄ. the rulers Ac 4:26 (Ps 2:2). W. δικαστής of Moses (in quot. of Ex 2:14): 7:27, 35 and 1 Cl

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 140). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

Dave_L

@davidtaylorjr said:

@Wolfgang said:

@Dave_L said:
Many gun enthusiasts think their calling is to overthrow government should some justifiable reason happen. But this is not in line with scripture. Under the New Covenant, God ordained the Civil Magistrates to bear the sword against evildoers. But never did he ordain the people to bear the sword against evil magistrates.

I consider this idea a false interpretation of Rom 13:1ff ...

The passage does NOT say that civil magistrates are ordained of God, it does state that there are "higher powers" which are ordained of God, and the church is to submit to those powers ordained of God.

Obviously, Hitler was not ordained of God ... else those who joined in his crimes were doing God's will while those who opposed him were violating God's will.
USA presidents are not ordained of God, they are elected in a presidential election .... just have a look at their fruit and you will know that most (if not all) were opposed to God, no matter how many "nice words" they put out and how "religious" they were.

I agree with you Wolfgang. @Dave_L you should really re-read, re-study, and re-think your interpretation of Romans 13. Your interpretation is not Biblical.

Like I said to Wolfgang: I hope you do not wind up like Nebuchadnezzar. “This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.” (Daniel 4:17)

“Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,” (Titus 3:1)

And .............

“For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:” (Romans 13:3)

Rulers = Power in Romans 13:3

ἄρχω, used as subst.: one who is in a position of leadership, esp. in a civic capacity.
① one who has eminence in a ruling capacity, ruler, lord, prince
ⓐ of earthly figures, οἱ ἄ. τῶν ἐθνῶν Mt 20:25; cp. B 9:3 (Is 1:10); οἱ ἄ. the rulers Ac 4:26 (Ps 2:2). W. δικαστής of Moses (in quot. of Ex 2:14): 7:27, 35 and 1 Cl

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 140). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

dct112685

@Dave_L As I recall, the Hebrews rebelled against Babylon repeatedly under God's direction. How does that fit into your theories?

Dave_L

@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L As I recall, the Hebrews rebelled against Babylon repeatedly under God's direction. How does that fit into your theories?

They had Babylon's blessings in Esther's day to kill off hoards who followed Hamman. And they returned to Judah under Babylon's finances.

dct112685

@Dave_L said:

@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L As I recall, the Hebrews rebelled against Babylon repeatedly under God's direction. How does that fit into your theories?

They had Babylon's blessings in Esther's day to kill off hoards who followed Hamman. And they returned to Judah under Babylon's finances.

Um, I'm referring to the book of Daniel, I'm sure you have heard of it?

Dave_L

@davidtaylorjr said:

@Dave_L said:

@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L As I recall, the Hebrews rebelled against Babylon repeatedly under God's direction. How does that fit into your theories?

They had Babylon's blessings in Esther's day to kill off hoards who followed Hamman. And they returned to Judah under Babylon's finances.

Um, I'm referring to the book of Daniel, I'm sure you have heard of it?

In Romans 13 the "higher powers" are the occupying rulers. The "powers" are the occupied rulers. And we are to honor the "higher powers". And so it was in Daniel. Although we like Daniel might suffer under them as Christians.