The Prayer of Faith

Dave_L

“Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.” (Mark 11:24)

Have you ever prayed for a need, or for a person, and could not doubt that God heard your prayer and said yes? Other times we pray and the heavens seem as brass. But several times, the scriptures say we can know God answered our prayers before we see them answered.

John says; “And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:” (1 John 5:14)

“And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.” (1 John 5:15)

But how do we know we asked according to God’s will? Notice John says we know we have the results before we see them if we ask according to God’s will. The simple answer is, if he gives us faith in the matter, we know it is his will. If we do not have faith, it is not God’s will to provide our petition.

So Jesus says; “And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.” (Matthew 21:22)

How do we distinguish between faith and positive thinking? Many in the Word of Faith movement kill themselves claiming healing based on Mark 11:24. They mistake positive thinking for faith. They think if you force yourself to believe and act on it without stopping, it obligates God to produce whatever it is you are thinking of.

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1)

The NET bible says;

“Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see.” (Hebrews 11:1)

Faith is not us convincing ourselves, it is the Spirit who lives in us bearing witness with our spirit causing us to believe.

The Spirit produces Faith, and this causes you to think positively about a matter. But positive thinking will not produce faith. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. And if faith is not already present, all the positive thinking in the world will not conjure it up.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit who bears witness with our spirit. And if we have the witness of the Spirit in our hearts about any particular matter, we then have faith God is answering our prayers.

GaoLu

@Dave_L said:
“Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.” (Mark 11:24)

Have you ever prayed for a need, or for a person, and could not doubt that God heard your prayer and said yes?

Yes.

Other times we pray and the heavens seem as brass. But several times, the scriptures say we can know God answered our prayers before we see them answered.

God answers.

John says; “And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:” (1 John 5:14)

“And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.” (1 John 5:15)

Good passages of truth and encouragement there.

But how do we know we asked according to God’s will? Notice John says we know we have the results before we see them if we ask according to God’s will. The simple answer is, if he gives us faith in the matter, we know it is his will. If we do not have faith, it is not God’s will to provide our petition.

Uh oh. Dave's one-man theology is popping up.
Dave's Theology Point #4 [Short version] Faith is just pretend, because it is something God has and not something man has, that God forces on the man, which isn't the man's faith at all, so we don't really know what it is, but Dave calls it faith anyway.

So Jesus says; “And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.” (Matthew 21:22)

How do we distinguish between faith and positive thinking?

You raise an important question here. I wonder if there is some fuzzy gray overlap between the two. Another question might be, "How important is it to distinguish between the two? I think it may be important, but I suspect you are hedging toward Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 which I think utterly misrepresetnts God, man and logic at the most fundamental level.

Many in the Word of Faith movement kill themselves claiming healing based on Mark 11:24. They mistake positive thinking for faith. They think if you force yourself to believe and act on it without stopping, it obligates God to produce whatever it is you are thinking of.

Excellent point. God is not forced to do anything--Being soverign and God and all, He has free will if anyone ever did!

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1)

The NET bible says;

“Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see.” (Hebrews 11:1)

Excellent, excellent points.

Faith is not us convincing ourselves, it is the Spirit who lives in us bearing witness with our spirit causing us to believe.

The Spirit bears witness. That doesn't cause us to believe. On the other hand, I will stew on your point here, because There is something about how once you know God personally, when you have heard His voice repeatedly, when you have seen His hand working close up, when the Spirit of God moves in your heart--how could you not believe? I think you have a good point, but that it could be more accurately articulated. I don't know if I have achieved that above or not.

The Spirit produces Faith, and this causes you to think positively about a matter. But positive thinking will not produce faith. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. And if faith is not already present, all the positive thinking in the world will not conjure it up.

I still go with Free Will. The Spirit may help us or influence us, but He does not "make" us do anything unless God is working in an exceptional way for a special purpose. God created authentic creatures with actual faith and actual love, not robots.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit who bears witness with our spirit. And if we have the witness of the Spirit in our hearts about any particular matter, we then have faith God is answering our prayers.

Faith is the fruit of the Spirit--but not forced upon us. Rather we are invited, the Spirit Woo's us and we of our own free volition respond--which is what makes our response meaningful.

Some good thoughts, Dave. Thanks. We have a significantly different interpretation of them, but learning the variety of perspectives is informative and interesting.

Dave_L

@GaoLu said:

@Dave_L said:
“Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.” (Mark 11:24)

Have you ever prayed for a need, or for a person, and could not doubt that God heard your prayer and said yes?

Yes.

Other times we pray and the heavens seem as brass. But several times, the scriptures say we can know God answered our prayers before we see them answered.

God answers.

John says; “And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:” (1 John 5:14)

“And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.” (1 John 5:15)

Good passages of truth and encouragement there.

But how do we know we asked according to God’s will? Notice John says we know we have the results before we see them if we ask according to God’s will. The simple answer is, if he gives us faith in the matter, we know it is his will. If we do not have faith, it is not God’s will to provide our petition.

Uh oh. Dave's one-man theology is popping up.
Dave's Theology Point #4 [Short version] Faith is just pretend, because it is something God has and not something man has, that God forces on the man, which isn't the man's faith at all, so we don't really know what it is, but Dave calls it faith anyway.

So Jesus says; “And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.” (Matthew 21:22)

How do we distinguish between faith and positive thinking?

You raise an important question here. I wonder if there is some fuzzy gray overlap between the two. Another question might be, "How important is it to distinguish between the two? I think it may be important, but I suspect you are hedging toward Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 which I think utterly misrepresetnts God, man and logic at the most fundamental level.

Many in the Word of Faith movement kill themselves claiming healing based on Mark 11:24. They mistake positive thinking for faith. They think if you force yourself to believe and act on it without stopping, it obligates God to produce whatever it is you are thinking of.

Excellent point. God is not forced to do anything--Being soverign and God and all, He has free will if anyone ever did!

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1)

The NET bible says;

“Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see.” (Hebrews 11:1)

Excellent, excellent points.

Faith is not us convincing ourselves, it is the Spirit who lives in us bearing witness with our spirit causing us to believe.

The Spirit bears witness. That doesn't cause us to believe. On the other hand, I will stew on your point here, because There is something about how once you know God personally, when you have heard His voice repeatedly, when you have seen His hand working close up, when the Spirit of God moves in your heart--how could you not believe? I think you have a good point, but that it could be more accurately articulated. I don't know if I have achieved that above or not.

The Spirit produces Faith, and this causes you to think positively about a matter. But positive thinking will not produce faith. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. And if faith is not already present, all the positive thinking in the world will not conjure it up.

I still go with Free Will. The Spirit may help us or influence us, but He does not "make" us do anything unless God is working in an exceptional way for a special purpose. God created authentic creatures with actual faith and actual love, not robots.

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit who bears witness with our spirit. And if we have the witness of the Spirit in our hearts about any particular matter, we then have faith God is answering our prayers.

Faith is the fruit of the Spirit--but not forced upon us. Rather we are invited, the Spirit Woo's us and we of our own free volition respond--which is what makes our response meaningful.

Some good thoughts, Dave. Thanks. We have a significantly different interpretation of them, but learning the variety of perspectives is informative and interesting.

I think the key to understanding this is in trying to doubt. If you can doubt, it is mental or intellectual assent and not faith. But if you doubt and faith remains steadfast in your heart, you can differentiate between faith and mental assent.

The only way I can relate to "Dave's one man theology" is if I were to claim the same about you based on my ignorance of the theologies you've studied.