The Beginning Of Christianity
To understand the Christian-Jewish relationships, it is helpful to review the beginning of Christianity. A number questions need to be answered for starters:
1. Where did Christianity originate (location)?
2. What was the dominant culture and language?
3. What dilemma is Christianity in the relationship with culture? What was the time period of its founder?
4. Was there any conflict between early Christians and Judaism? If so, what were they and why?
5. Was Christianity heavily indebted to Judaism? If so in what way(s)?
6. Why in about AD 57, Christians were reviled, persecuted, defamed, "made as the filth of the world, and ... the offscouring of all things?" CM
Comments
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In the eyes of the Judaism / Jews at the time, "Christianity" (that is, the followers of Christ) were regarded and labeled as heretics, and persecuted to the death because they had forsaken their religion ... and apparently in the eyes of the religious leadership posed a threat to various aspects of "the established religious system".
By the way, their actions against followers of Christ at the time (culminating in severe persecution to the death) were not much different to what has been seen when certain systems of Islam are involved (cp. Saudi-Arabia ... open a Bible in Riad or Jeddah and start preaching Christ in the market place ... the results will be the same as what the early Christians experienced at Jerusalem and other places during the early decades)
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@C_M_ said:
To understand the Christian-Jewish relationships, it is helpful to review the beginning of Christianity. A number questions need to be answered for starters:
1. Where did Christianity originate (location)?
2. What was the dominant culture and language?
3. What dilemma is Christianity in the relationship with culture? What was the time period of its founder?
4. Was there any conflict between early Christians and Judaism? If so, what were they and why?
5. Was Christianity heavily indebted to Judaism? If so in what way(s)?
6. Why in about AD 57, Christians were reviled, persecuted, defamed, "made as the filth of the world, and ... the offscouring of all things?" CMIf we understand where Christianity and Judaism came from and how they relate to each other historically, we can better answer your questions.
In a bird's-eye view, circumcision culminating in Judaism meant the temporary physical addition of unbelievers to the believing spiritual Seed of Abraham for protective reasons. The unbelievers were the chaff that served the wheat.
So when Christ abolished circumcision on the cross, the spiritual seed remained Israel, and God removed the unbelievers (today's Jews) placing all except the elect among them under his wrath until the end. And these tensions always existed between believers and unbelievers in OT history. And remained under the New Covenant with (pacifist) believers always receiving the persecution. And on a larger scale throughout history, with Christendom and Judaism. With Judaism receiving the brunt of the persecution.
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@C_M_ said:
To understand the Christian-Jewish relationships, it is helpful to review the beginning of Christianity. A number questions need to be answered for starters:
1. Where did Christianity originate (location)?
2. What was the dominant culture and language?
3. What dilemma is Christianity in the relationship with culture? What was the time period of its founder?
4. Was there any conflict between early Christians and Judaism? If so, what were they and why?
5. Was Christianity heavily indebted to Judaism? If so in what way(s)?
6. Why in about AD 57, Christians were reviled, persecuted, defamed, "made as the filth of the world, and ... the offscouring of all things?" CMI'm curious as to why you seem obsessed with Christianity and suppposed anti-semitism or war or prejudice?
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@davidtaylorjr said:
I'm curious as to why you seem obsessed with Christianity and suppposed anti-semitism or war or prejudice?
For now, your curiosity got the best of you.
1. There is no obsession here. Sorry, David, another day, another mislabeling or attempting to label me.
2. These are all legitimate questions to ask of the origin of Christianity.
3. Besides, truth can endure close examination and remains true.
4. If you are unable to answer the questions or not interested in the historical reflection of Christianity, that's alright. You have my permission to skip this thread. CD allows it.
5. My "Supposed anti-semitism or war or prejudice" posts are simply a quest to find the area or root causes of "man's inhumanity to man".I hope you will join me in my quest. If not, I am ok and you are... CM
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@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
I'm curious as to why you seem obsessed with Christianity and suppposed anti-semitism or war or prejudice?
For now, your curiosity got the best of you.
1. There is no obsession here. Sorry, David, another day, another mislabeling or attempting to label me.I didn't label you. You should read my question closer. The word "seem" is key here.
- These are all legitimate questions to ask of the origin of Christianity.
That's fair.
- Besides, truth can endure close examination and remains true.
Agreed
- If you are unable to answer the questions or not interested in the historical reflection of Christianity, that's alright. You have my permission to skip this thread. CD allows it.
Now you are on the offensive.
- My "Supposed anti-semitism or war or prejudice" posts are simply a quest to find the area or root causes of "man's inhumanity to man".
I would argue that there is not an overt history of anti-semitism in the early church.
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Thanks for your understanding. CM
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@C_M_ said:
To understand the Christian-Jewish relationships, it is helpful to review the beginning of Christianity. A number questions need to be answered for starters:
1. Where did Christianity originate (location)?Mainly around Judaea among Jews, and very quickly spread throughout the Greco Roman world.
- What was the dominant culture and language?
This was the time of the Roman Empire, but realistically Greek, Latin/Roman, Jewish and many others.
- What dilemma is Christianity in the relationship with culture?
Not sure what you mean. There was conflict over Jesus as Messiah with the Jews and with Rome regarding who was God.
What was the time period of its founder?
2000 years ago. Answered above.
- Was there any conflict between early Christians and Judaism? If so, what were they and why?
Yes. The Jews didn't like other religions coming in among them or having their people stolen away any better than people today like it. There were apparently even incidents of persecution, although very soon the persecution was stacked very heavily against the Jews and pretty much stayed that way to this day. There are isolated strikes back--both then and today. A handful of these are recorded in the NT.
- Was Christianity heavily indebted to Judaism? If so in what way(s)?
Yes. They worshipped the same God. And they....isn't this question a little too basic?
- Why in about AD 57, Christians were reviled, persecuted, defamed, "made as the filth of the world, and ... the offscouring of all things?" CM
Because people then reacted violently, angrily, politically to being confronted with the Truth of God, just like they do today.
Probably all your questions can be laid to rest with this simple article
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- Was there any conflict between early Christians and Judaism? If so, what were they and why?
Yes. The Jews didn't like other religions coming in among them or having their people stolen away any better than people today like it. There were apparently even incidents of persecution, although very soon the persecution was stacked very heavily against the Jews and pretty much stayed that way to this day. There are isolated strikes back--both then and today. A handful of these are recorded in the NT.
- Was Christianity heavily indebted to Judaism? If so in what way(s)?
Yes. They worshipped the same God. And they....isn't this question a little too basic?
- Why in about AD 57, Christians were reviled, persecuted, defamed, "made as the filth of the world, and ... the offscouring of all things?" CM
Because people then reacted violently, angrily, politically to being confronted with the Truth of God, just like they do today.
Could this explain the existence of Jewish stories against Jesus? "Toledot Jeshu
(Book of the Life of Jesus) ...?"This is a Devastating Hebrew Book to belittle the person of Jesus by ascribing to Him illegitimate birth, magic, witchcraft, and a shameful death.
The main point of the Toledot is that Jesus is a deceiver and a heretic who was crucified by the Jews and his disciples stole his body and deceived others by proclaiming his resurrection. All the Toledot Jeshu editions declared "Jesus Christ to be a bastard."
In this book:
1. Virgin Mary is portrayed in the Toledot as a woman who conceived Jesus as a result of rape by a Roman soldier, Joseph Pandera.
2. "Jeshu" means "may his name be blotted out!": Most Jewish sources avoid the Greek name "Jesus", meaning "savior", and in Hebrew abbreviate Jeschua to Jeshu: "Jeschua" means "Savior", "Jeshu" means "may his name be blotted out!"Is this considered by some, the anti-Jesus book by Jews? Could this be the "smoking gun" of which some in CD hinted about? How do we explain this away? Do we use the same reasonings and rationales we used the explain Luther's remarks and the Early Church Father's?
The things and the coded messages within and about this work are appalling against the Christians. I am equally surprised, of this work, by my Jewish brothers, against Jesus/Christians, as I was about Luther and the Early Church Fathers. How do we reconcile the collection of these statements, works, and sentiments? Are these works having present-day influences? Truth found truth shared. Someone, help me out. CM
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Oh good grief. Are you really wrapped around that axel? Nowadays we have Dan Brown. Back then they had a handful of Dan Browns. Whoop-dee-doo.
The book got the attention of Christians inclined to National Inquirer-type melodrama just like "The Davinci Code" does today. Nothing new under the sun.
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@GaoLu said:
Oh good grief. Are you really wrapped around that axel? Nowadays we have Dan Brown. Back then they had a handful of Dan Browns. Whoop-dee-doo.The book got the attention of Christians inclined to National Inquirer-type melodrama just like "The Davinci Code" does today. Nothing new under the sun.
GaoLu, let me be clear. Are you saying, there's "absolutely positivity", no truth to it? Would you say, it's just literary garbage? CM
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What I did was asked was if you were wrapped around that axle. I haven't known you long but didn't expect this from you. A little rain washes away the whitewash and true colors show through.
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@C_M_ I noticed you ignored my response to you.
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@GaoLu said:
What I did was asked was if you were wrapped around that axle. I haven't known you long but didn't expect this from you. A little rain washes away the whitewash and true colors show through.And...? CM
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Yeah. That was the point. No "and."
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@GaoLu said:
Yeah. That was the point. No "and."It doesn't appear to be another "Dan Brown" type book. WhenI know more I will share more. CM
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(1911–1912). The Jewish Quarterly Review, New Series, II. addresses the "Toledot Jeshu" speaking of Jewish legends. That is how seriously it seems to be taken.
(1923). The Harvard Theological Review, XVI(1–4). also addresses this similarly.
John Gill in his commentary addresses the book as an intentional Jewish scandal to discredit Jesus among the Jews.
I don't think we have anything that was ever intended to be the same low caliber even of Dan Brown. However, the fact that it was used as an attack against truth and used to discredit Jesus caught the attention of Christians. It becomes great fodder for trolls. Same thing happens on forums.
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Thanks for sharing. Don't be so quick to label. Check it out for truth. Even if it proves not, see if it is effective and in what circles? You seem to be too hung up on this troll thing. Let each discovery be a learning experience. Remember, truth can stand close examination. Fear not you are not going to lose your faith. You see, the sky hasn't fallen and no one left CD.
You said, "John Gill in his commentary addresses the book as an intentional Jewish scandal to discredit Jesus among the Jews." How widely was it read then and now? Was it effective and is it being used today? Have you or someone countered it? These are the things to be done, so when others encounter the book or these articles, it can be discussed without the name-calling or fear. "Chin up."
No trolling, just a seeker of information and clarification. "Capiche? CMPS. "Legends" or not, don't muzzle history, let her speak her truth to all, in every era.
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@C_M_ said:
Thanks for sharing. Don't be so quick to label.You keep talking about labeling and being labeled, though I usually don't know to whom or what you are referring. I guess you think that is a bad thing? Or a good thing?
Check it out for truth. Even if it proves not, see if it is effective and in what circles?
I did that in the posts above.
You seem to be too hung up on this troll thing.
Trolling is fun for some kinds of people but fogs up a positive dialog with drivel. I guess that is why some people do it. Probably I have been guilty of it sometimes. Emotional poking for a response. It's fun when I do it, even productive and justifiable, and trolling when the other guy does it.
Let each discovery be a learning experience. Remember, truth can stand close examination. Fear not you are not going to lose your faith. You see, the sky hasn't fallen and no one left CD.
Well said.
You said, "John Gill in his commentary addresses the book as an intentional Jewish scandal to discredit Jesus among the Jews." How widely was it read then and now?
Gill was an English Baptist theologian from the 1600's-1700's. He was quite widely read and still is. He wrote at a time when smear stories about Jesus were popular including the one you brought up. One of the articles I referenced earlier sort of addresses that.
Was it effective and is it being used today? Have you or someone countered it?
Gill? I suppose it was effective. He was influential and wise and trusted. I never countered Gills argument or met anyone who has. I mean, we have the Bible which counters it. What more do you need?
These are the things to be done, so when others encounter the book or these articles, it can be discussed without the name-calling or fear. "Chin up."
No trolling, just a seeker of information and clarification. "Capiche? CMDiscussion is fine. Yet, when a person perpetually paints the world as dark and bad and comes across overwhelmingly with The-sky-is-Falling posts, I would hope we could encourage such a one to know that things aren't all so bad as that. As Christians, we have hope and peace and joy. I am not here to take away your right to live in your melancholy world but may invite you from time to time up into the sunshine. Surely you wouldn't want to revoke my right to do so.
PS. "Legends" or not, don't muzzle history, let her speak her truth to all, in every era.
Don't muzzle Dan Brown either. Or Tom Swift and his Atomic Earth Blaster.
If historical Anti-Christ legends are your gig...whatever. Maybe they don't serve that melancholy streak so well? Just a thought. -
GaoLu,
Thanks for sharing.Mr. Sunshine, are you upset about something or with someone? If so, what is it? If not, jolly good peace! Thanks again, for the information. CM
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@C_M_ said:
GaoLu,
Thanks for sharing.Mr. Sunshine, are you upset about something or with someone? If so, what is it? If not, jolly good peace! Thanks again, for the information. CM
Don't think so. Thanks. I hope you valued the discussion of the topic above. Did you?
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