Nasim Aghdam - No bottom to the Stupid Barrel?
Comments
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
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@GaoLu said:
She was a nice lady. Exercise enthusiast who cared about animals and healthy vegan eating. The media describes her as a Persian enthusiast. Mmhmmm.She was also Iranian.
She also marched into Youtube and opened fire. Investigators are searching for a reason.
Tough one to figure out. Such a nice lady and all.
From the reports I've read, Aghdam's crime is not hard to explain, and - surprise, surprise - the explanation has nothing to do with her being Iranian.
As THIS ARTICLE spells out in helpful detail, Aghdam was a YouTuber, a person who creates YouTube content in search of financial reward. She felt aggrieved when YouTube changed the rules by which people could monetize their content. In addition, she was apparently upset by YouTube actions against some of her videos about veganism. Sadly, her anger with the policy and editorial changes grew to the point where, last week, she entered YouTube headquarters with a gun, injured three people and killed herself.
So Aghdam's crime had nothing to do with her being of Iranian descent, and had everything to do with her contemptible, detestable, and violent reaction to YouTube's actions. So unrelated to her Iranian heritage was her crime that I wonder whether you might replace that sentence in your OP with a more relevant statement... such as
She also had a gun.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
-
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
Yes, but certain conditions must prevail before he returns. And those conditions are rife.
-
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
Yes, but certain conditions must prevail before he returns. And those conditions are rife.
And have been for thousands of years. That is my whole point.
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
Yes, but certain conditions must prevail before he returns. And those conditions are rife.
And have been for thousands of years. That is my whole point.
You miss the similarities of Sodom & Gomorrah in today's culture that did not exist until recently. And the pollution and corruption of all flesh in Noah's day. “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6:11) (KJV 1900)
These are signs of the times you are missing.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
Yes, but certain conditions must prevail before he returns. And those conditions are rife.
And have been for thousands of years. That is my whole point.
You miss the similarities of Sodom & Gomorrah in today's culture that did not exist until recently. And the pollution and corruption of all flesh in Noah's day. “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6:11) (KJV 1900)
These are signs of the times you are missing.
You should do some history research on how things were in the Roman Empire.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
Yes, but certain conditions must prevail before he returns. And those conditions are rife.
And have been for thousands of years. That is my whole point.
You miss the similarities of Sodom & Gomorrah in today's culture that did not exist until recently. And the pollution and corruption of all flesh in Noah's day. “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6:11) (KJV 1900)
These are signs of the times you are missing.
You should do some history research on how things were in the Roman Empire.
Nothing as widespread and wicked as today. Abortion rates alone separate us from any other time in history.
-
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
Yes, but certain conditions must prevail before he returns. And those conditions are rife.
And have been for thousands of years. That is my whole point.
You miss the similarities of Sodom & Gomorrah in today's culture that did not exist until recently. And the pollution and corruption of all flesh in Noah's day. “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6:11) (KJV 1900)
These are signs of the times you are missing.
You should do some history research on how things were in the Roman Empire.
Nothing as widespread and wicked as today. Abortion rates alone separate us from any other time in history.
Clearly not getting anywhere with you.
https://www.logos.com/product/28579/basic-bible-interpretation
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
Yes, but certain conditions must prevail before he returns. And those conditions are rife.
And have been for thousands of years. That is my whole point.
You miss the similarities of Sodom & Gomorrah in today's culture that did not exist until recently. And the pollution and corruption of all flesh in Noah's day. “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6:11) (KJV 1900)
These are signs of the times you are missing.
You should do some history research on how things were in the Roman Empire.
Nothing as widespread and wicked as today. Abortion rates alone separate us from any other time in history.
Clearly not getting anywhere with you.
https://www.logos.com/product/28579/basic-bible-interpretation
Thanks for the link, I'll check into it. But please consider the value of the word "as" as in the days of Noah. It broadens the scope of what Jesus said to the Jewish mind of his day.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
Yes, but certain conditions must prevail before he returns. And those conditions are rife.
And have been for thousands of years. That is my whole point.
You miss the similarities of Sodom & Gomorrah in today's culture that did not exist until recently. And the pollution and corruption of all flesh in Noah's day. “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6:11) (KJV 1900)
These are signs of the times you are missing.
You should do some history research on how things were in the Roman Empire.
Nothing as widespread and wicked as today. Abortion rates alone separate us from any other time in history.
Clearly not getting anywhere with you.
https://www.logos.com/product/28579/basic-bible-interpretation
Thanks for the link, I'll check into it. But please consider the value of the word "as" as in the days of Noah. It broadens the scope of what Jesus said to the Jewish mind of his day.
I have considered it, and even showed you what it points to.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
Yes, but certain conditions must prevail before he returns. And those conditions are rife.
And have been for thousands of years. That is my whole point.
You miss the similarities of Sodom & Gomorrah in today's culture that did not exist until recently. And the pollution and corruption of all flesh in Noah's day. “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6:11) (KJV 1900)
These are signs of the times you are missing.
You should do some history research on how things were in the Roman Empire.
Nothing as widespread and wicked as today. Abortion rates alone separate us from any other time in history.
Clearly not getting anywhere with you.
https://www.logos.com/product/28579/basic-bible-interpretation
Thanks for the link, I'll check into it. But please consider the value of the word "as" as in the days of Noah. It broadens the scope of what Jesus said to the Jewish mind of his day.
I have considered it, and even showed you what it points to.
when Satan, the common "enemy" of mankind, the avowed and implacable enemy of Christ and his people, "shall come" into the world, and into the church, as he will in the latter day; and has already entered "like" an impetuous flood, threatening to carry all before him, introducing a flood of immorality and profaneness, as in the days of Noah and Lot, to which the times of the Son of Man's coming are likened, Lu 17:26 or else a flood of error and heresy of all sorts; see Re 12:15 and likewise a flood of persecution, as will be at the slaying of the witnesses, that hour of temptation that will come upon all the earth, to try the inhabitants of it, Re 3:10.
John Gill. (n.d.). Exposition on the Entire Bible (Is 59:19).
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
Yes, but certain conditions must prevail before he returns. And those conditions are rife.
And have been for thousands of years. That is my whole point.
You miss the similarities of Sodom & Gomorrah in today's culture that did not exist until recently. And the pollution and corruption of all flesh in Noah's day. “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6:11) (KJV 1900)
These are signs of the times you are missing.
You should do some history research on how things were in the Roman Empire.
Nothing as widespread and wicked as today. Abortion rates alone separate us from any other time in history.
Clearly not getting anywhere with you.
https://www.logos.com/product/28579/basic-bible-interpretation
Thanks for the link, I'll check into it. But please consider the value of the word "as" as in the days of Noah. It broadens the scope of what Jesus said to the Jewish mind of his day.
I have considered it, and even showed you what it points to.
when Satan, the common "enemy" of mankind, the avowed and implacable enemy of Christ and his people, "shall come" into the world, and into the church, as he will in the latter day; and has already entered "like" an impetuous flood, threatening to carry all before him, introducing a flood of immorality and profaneness, as in the days of Noah and Lot, to which the times of the Son of Man's coming are likened, Lu 17:26 or else a flood of error and heresy of all sorts; see Re 12:15 and likewise a flood of persecution, as will be at the slaying of the witnesses, that hour of temptation that will come upon all the earth, to try the inhabitants of it, Re 3:10.
John Gill. (n.d.). Exposition on the Entire Bible (Is 59:19).
Thank you for offering John Gill's interpretation. Nonetheless, if you take the whole of Scripture in, you will see the full quote of Christ and the full meaning.
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@dct112685 said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
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@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
Yes, but certain conditions must prevail before he returns. And those conditions are rife.
And have been for thousands of years. That is my whole point.
You miss the similarities of Sodom & Gomorrah in today's culture that did not exist until recently. And the pollution and corruption of all flesh in Noah's day. “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6:11) (KJV 1900)
These are signs of the times you are missing.
You should do some history research on how things were in the Roman Empire.
Nothing as widespread and wicked as today. Abortion rates alone separate us from any other time in history.
Clearly not getting anywhere with you.
https://www.logos.com/product/28579/basic-bible-interpretation
Thanks for the link, I'll check into it. But please consider the value of the word "as" as in the days of Noah. It broadens the scope of what Jesus said to the Jewish mind of his day.
I have considered it, and even showed you what it points to.
when Satan, the common "enemy" of mankind, the avowed and implacable enemy of Christ and his people, "shall come" into the world, and into the church, as he will in the latter day; and has already entered "like" an impetuous flood, threatening to carry all before him, introducing a flood of immorality and profaneness, as in the days of Noah and Lot, to which the times of the Son of Man's coming are likened, Lu 17:26 or else a flood of error and heresy of all sorts; see Re 12:15 and likewise a flood of persecution, as will be at the slaying of the witnesses, that hour of temptation that will come upon all the earth, to try the inhabitants of it, Re 3:10.
John Gill. (n.d.). Exposition on the Entire Bible (Is 59:19).
Thank you for offering John Gill's interpretation. Nonetheless, if you take the whole of Scripture in, you will see the full quote of Christ and the full meaning.
I am doing what you suggest. But think of it this way. 1. conditions will exists as they did in Noah's day and in Lot's day. = overt wickedness. 2. Against this backdrop we can expect Christ's return without warning.
“So also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near, right at the door. I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” (Matthew 24:33–35) (NET)
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@Dave_L said:
@dct112685 said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
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@Dave_L said:
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
Yes, but certain conditions must prevail before he returns. And those conditions are rife.
And have been for thousands of years. That is my whole point.
You miss the similarities of Sodom & Gomorrah in today's culture that did not exist until recently. And the pollution and corruption of all flesh in Noah's day. “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6:11) (KJV 1900)
These are signs of the times you are missing.
You should do some history research on how things were in the Roman Empire.
Nothing as widespread and wicked as today. Abortion rates alone separate us from any other time in history.
Clearly not getting anywhere with you.
https://www.logos.com/product/28579/basic-bible-interpretation
Thanks for the link, I'll check into it. But please consider the value of the word "as" as in the days of Noah. It broadens the scope of what Jesus said to the Jewish mind of his day.
I have considered it, and even showed you what it points to.
when Satan, the common "enemy" of mankind, the avowed and implacable enemy of Christ and his people, "shall come" into the world, and into the church, as he will in the latter day; and has already entered "like" an impetuous flood, threatening to carry all before him, introducing a flood of immorality and profaneness, as in the days of Noah and Lot, to which the times of the Son of Man's coming are likened, Lu 17:26 or else a flood of error and heresy of all sorts; see Re 12:15 and likewise a flood of persecution, as will be at the slaying of the witnesses, that hour of temptation that will come upon all the earth, to try the inhabitants of it, Re 3:10.
John Gill. (n.d.). Exposition on the Entire Bible (Is 59:19).
Thank you for offering John Gill's interpretation. Nonetheless, if you take the whole of Scripture in, you will see the full quote of Christ and the full meaning.
I am doing what you suggest. But think of it this way. 1. conditions will exists as they did in Noah's day and in Lot's day. = overt wickedness. 2. Against this backdrop we can expect Christ's return without warning.
That is what I have said since you and I have started this debate. What I am arguing against, is your assertion that somehow those conditions have not always existed.
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@dct112685 said:
@Dave_L said:
@dct112685 said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
Yes, but certain conditions must prevail before he returns. And those conditions are rife.
And have been for thousands of years. That is my whole point.
You miss the similarities of Sodom & Gomorrah in today's culture that did not exist until recently. And the pollution and corruption of all flesh in Noah's day. “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6:11) (KJV 1900)
These are signs of the times you are missing.
You should do some history research on how things were in the Roman Empire.
Nothing as widespread and wicked as today. Abortion rates alone separate us from any other time in history.
Clearly not getting anywhere with you.
https://www.logos.com/product/28579/basic-bible-interpretation
Thanks for the link, I'll check into it. But please consider the value of the word "as" as in the days of Noah. It broadens the scope of what Jesus said to the Jewish mind of his day.
I have considered it, and even showed you what it points to.
when Satan, the common "enemy" of mankind, the avowed and implacable enemy of Christ and his people, "shall come" into the world, and into the church, as he will in the latter day; and has already entered "like" an impetuous flood, threatening to carry all before him, introducing a flood of immorality and profaneness, as in the days of Noah and Lot, to which the times of the Son of Man's coming are likened, Lu 17:26 or else a flood of error and heresy of all sorts; see Re 12:15 and likewise a flood of persecution, as will be at the slaying of the witnesses, that hour of temptation that will come upon all the earth, to try the inhabitants of it, Re 3:10.
John Gill. (n.d.). Exposition on the Entire Bible (Is 59:19).
Thank you for offering John Gill's interpretation. Nonetheless, if you take the whole of Scripture in, you will see the full quote of Christ and the full meaning.
I am doing what you suggest. But think of it this way. 1. conditions will exists as they did in Noah's day and in Lot's day. = overt wickedness. 2. Against this backdrop we can expect Christ's return without warning.
That is what I have said since you and I have started this debate. What I am arguing against, is your assertion that somehow those conditions have not always existed.
They always existed but never at today's UNIVERSAL level. Had they existed at the level of Sodom and Gomorrah and at the level they did in Noah's day, Jesus would not be able to use them as examples.
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@Dave_L said:
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@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
Yes, but certain conditions must prevail before he returns. And those conditions are rife.
And have been for thousands of years. That is my whole point.
You miss the similarities of Sodom & Gomorrah in today's culture that did not exist until recently. And the pollution and corruption of all flesh in Noah's day. “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6:11) (KJV 1900)
These are signs of the times you are missing.
You should do some history research on how things were in the Roman Empire.
Nothing as widespread and wicked as today. Abortion rates alone separate us from any other time in history.
Clearly not getting anywhere with you.
https://www.logos.com/product/28579/basic-bible-interpretation
Thanks for the link, I'll check into it. But please consider the value of the word "as" as in the days of Noah. It broadens the scope of what Jesus said to the Jewish mind of his day.
I have considered it, and even showed you what it points to.
when Satan, the common "enemy" of mankind, the avowed and implacable enemy of Christ and his people, "shall come" into the world, and into the church, as he will in the latter day; and has already entered "like" an impetuous flood, threatening to carry all before him, introducing a flood of immorality and profaneness, as in the days of Noah and Lot, to which the times of the Son of Man's coming are likened, Lu 17:26 or else a flood of error and heresy of all sorts; see Re 12:15 and likewise a flood of persecution, as will be at the slaying of the witnesses, that hour of temptation that will come upon all the earth, to try the inhabitants of it, Re 3:10.
John Gill. (n.d.). Exposition on the Entire Bible (Is 59:19).
Thank you for offering John Gill's interpretation. Nonetheless, if you take the whole of Scripture in, you will see the full quote of Christ and the full meaning.
I am doing what you suggest. But think of it this way. 1. conditions will exists as they did in Noah's day and in Lot's day. = overt wickedness. 2. Against this backdrop we can expect Christ's return without warning.
That is what I have said since you and I have started this debate. What I am arguing against, is your assertion that somehow those conditions have not always existed.
They always existed but never at today's UNIVERSAL level. Had they existed at the level of Sodom and Gomorrah and at the level they did in Noah's day, Jesus would not be able to use them as examples.
Unless, of course, the purpose was to say it can be at anytime.
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@dct112685 said:
@Dave_L said:
@dct112685 said:
@Dave_L said:
@dct112685 said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
Yes, but certain conditions must prevail before he returns. And those conditions are rife.
And have been for thousands of years. That is my whole point.
You miss the similarities of Sodom & Gomorrah in today's culture that did not exist until recently. And the pollution and corruption of all flesh in Noah's day. “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6:11) (KJV 1900)
These are signs of the times you are missing.
You should do some history research on how things were in the Roman Empire.
Nothing as widespread and wicked as today. Abortion rates alone separate us from any other time in history.
Clearly not getting anywhere with you.
https://www.logos.com/product/28579/basic-bible-interpretation
Thanks for the link, I'll check into it. But please consider the value of the word "as" as in the days of Noah. It broadens the scope of what Jesus said to the Jewish mind of his day.
I have considered it, and even showed you what it points to.
when Satan, the common "enemy" of mankind, the avowed and implacable enemy of Christ and his people, "shall come" into the world, and into the church, as he will in the latter day; and has already entered "like" an impetuous flood, threatening to carry all before him, introducing a flood of immorality and profaneness, as in the days of Noah and Lot, to which the times of the Son of Man's coming are likened, Lu 17:26 or else a flood of error and heresy of all sorts; see Re 12:15 and likewise a flood of persecution, as will be at the slaying of the witnesses, that hour of temptation that will come upon all the earth, to try the inhabitants of it, Re 3:10.
John Gill. (n.d.). Exposition on the Entire Bible (Is 59:19).
Thank you for offering John Gill's interpretation. Nonetheless, if you take the whole of Scripture in, you will see the full quote of Christ and the full meaning.
I am doing what you suggest. But think of it this way. 1. conditions will exists as they did in Noah's day and in Lot's day. = overt wickedness. 2. Against this backdrop we can expect Christ's return without warning.
That is what I have said since you and I have started this debate. What I am arguing against, is your assertion that somehow those conditions have not always existed.
They always existed but never at today's UNIVERSAL level. Had they existed at the level of Sodom and Gomorrah and at the level they did in Noah's day, Jesus would not be able to use them as examples.
Unless, of course, the purpose was to say it can be at anytime.
Jesus could have easily omitted the setting and said be ready for when you think not etc. But I believe he gives us the setting using the two unique examples of Lot's and Noah's day.
In my eschatology, Jesus' return can be at any time, even today.
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@Dave_L said:
@dct112685 said:
@Dave_L said:
@dct112685 said:
@Dave_L said:
@dct112685 said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
Yes, but certain conditions must prevail before he returns. And those conditions are rife.
And have been for thousands of years. That is my whole point.
You miss the similarities of Sodom & Gomorrah in today's culture that did not exist until recently. And the pollution and corruption of all flesh in Noah's day. “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6:11) (KJV 1900)
These are signs of the times you are missing.
You should do some history research on how things were in the Roman Empire.
Nothing as widespread and wicked as today. Abortion rates alone separate us from any other time in history.
Clearly not getting anywhere with you.
https://www.logos.com/product/28579/basic-bible-interpretation
Thanks for the link, I'll check into it. But please consider the value of the word "as" as in the days of Noah. It broadens the scope of what Jesus said to the Jewish mind of his day.
I have considered it, and even showed you what it points to.
when Satan, the common "enemy" of mankind, the avowed and implacable enemy of Christ and his people, "shall come" into the world, and into the church, as he will in the latter day; and has already entered "like" an impetuous flood, threatening to carry all before him, introducing a flood of immorality and profaneness, as in the days of Noah and Lot, to which the times of the Son of Man's coming are likened, Lu 17:26 or else a flood of error and heresy of all sorts; see Re 12:15 and likewise a flood of persecution, as will be at the slaying of the witnesses, that hour of temptation that will come upon all the earth, to try the inhabitants of it, Re 3:10.
John Gill. (n.d.). Exposition on the Entire Bible (Is 59:19).
Thank you for offering John Gill's interpretation. Nonetheless, if you take the whole of Scripture in, you will see the full quote of Christ and the full meaning.
I am doing what you suggest. But think of it this way. 1. conditions will exists as they did in Noah's day and in Lot's day. = overt wickedness. 2. Against this backdrop we can expect Christ's return without warning.
That is what I have said since you and I have started this debate. What I am arguing against, is your assertion that somehow those conditions have not always existed.
They always existed but never at today's UNIVERSAL level. Had they existed at the level of Sodom and Gomorrah and at the level they did in Noah's day, Jesus would not be able to use them as examples.
Unless, of course, the purpose was to say it can be at anytime.
Jesus could have easily omitted the setting and said be ready for when you think not etc. But I believe he gives us the setting using the two unique examples of Lot's and Noah's day.
In my eschatology, Jesus' return can be at any time, even today.
I'm not contesting that Dave, do you even read what I say or do you just spout off whatever drivel you feel like putting in the box?
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I can see "the days of Noah" where the earth was filled with violence happening in America. And to an extent around the world in the news. So I often wonder like the plethora of geezers in every generation before me if these aren't "signs of the times". That is, just before the Lord returns.Do you realize there has always been this level of violence since the days of Noah? The world has only experienced very short times (right after creation and immediately after the flood) where there was not high levels of violence.
I do not think the technology in Noah's day produced the level of destruction we have today. Consider the World Wars, and the number of personal weapons that kill far more than spears, rocks and clubs ever could.
That has nothing to do with it.
It has everything to do with it. Today's world is full of violence. The question is, are you contributing to it? I'm not....
Stay on topic Dave.
How is Violence not on topic when the topic is about a violent act?
That part was on topic, but you made a personal attack with: "The question is are you contributing to it? I'm not...." That was injected from our other thread about self-defense.
How can adding weapons not contribute to violence?
That's not the question Dave. Of course they contribute to violence. But my point is many say we are starting to look like the days of Noah. The problem is, the world has ALWAYS looked like the days of Noah ever since the fall. That's the whole point.
But, if the days of Noah serve as an indication of Jesus' return, how could any other time in history serve the purpose, before his birth?
I think you should do some study on that passage and look at why he was talking about the days of Noah.
“For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
“The earth was ruined in the sight of God; the earth was filled with violence. God saw the earth, and indeed it was ruined, for all living creatures on the earth were sinful. So God said to Noah, “I have decided that all living creatures must die, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. Now I am about to destroy them and the earth.” (Genesis 6:11–13) (NET)
Sounds like today, eh?
It sounds like the past 4,000 years. Let me give you a hint, the passage has nothing to do with predicting when the return will be.
It has everything to do with showing the world situation leading up the Christ's return. That is the reason Jesus used Noah to show us the conditions. It is not anything like the events many look for today.
You really need to take a hermeneutics class. The passage you quoted shows the intent. "And they knew nothing until they were taken away"
That's what it is talking about. The world will be shocked when it happens. It has nothing to do with how degraded the world is.
If Noah's days were violent, according to Genesis, and Jesus says the days leading up to his return will be like them, how would sound hermeneutics draw any different conclusion from what I said?
I've already answered that question for you.
I can understand your position but the scope of Noah's days are much broader than you allow for.
What do you mean....
If we use the entire bible for a description of Noah's days, we can see more than if we limit them to "marrying and giving in marriage" as is the norm today. But your narrow view rules out the "great tribulation theory".
What in the world are you talking about? Have you even been reading what I am saying? I have not limited it to marrying and giving in marriage, in fact, I haven't even mentioned that.
If you confine your "Days of Noah" to “For just like the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be. For in those days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah entered the ark. And they knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away. It will be the same at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:37–39) (NET)
And do not consider Genesis on the same, you shoot your own foot (no pun intended) because there is no room for a great tribulation.
Dave, you should probably re-read what I have written. You have no idea what you are talking about with regard to what I have said.
You cannot find a great tribulation in Matthew 24:37-39. Only peaceful conditions leading up to Christ's return. They don't marry while getting their heads cut off...etc.
READ WHAT I HAVE READ. Good grief, what is wrong with you?
You cannot use Matthew 24:37-39 to prove the earth will not be violent as it is today. Only that business will continue as usual leading up to Christ's return. And this against the violent backdrop we have today.
This proves you aren't reading, or at least comprehending, what I have actually said. I did not say the earth will not be violent. Not once did I say that. I am saying that is not what the passage is trying to say. The passage is talking about the earth will be surprised when his return comes. It has nothing to do with predicting the time of that return.
But Jesus said it will be as in the days of Noah.
Yes read the FULL statement.
“Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage—right up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot, people were eating, drinking, buying, selling, planting, building; but on the day Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26–29) (NET)
But we know why destruction came in both scenarios. If the conditions leading up to the destruction were not important, why didn't Jesus omit them? He doesn't need them to say what you would limit him to saying.
I didn't say they weren't important. I contend that it means he could come back ANYTIME because the world will always be as in the days of Noah. But that goes to show, he was not giving us a barometer to pick his return, rather, he was saying they will be surprised. You need to look at all the synoptics to get the proper interpretation.
It is important not to limit the meaning of the word "as" in the days of Noah. Because it identifies the situation preceding the judgement. As I understand, the Lord can return any moment now, nothing yet to fulfill before his return. Because we are in the days of Noah preceding the judgement, metaphorically speaking.
See that's where you were wrong, it's not talking about the conditions coming before the judgement, that's part of it, but that has been the last 4,000 years, it was like that even when Christ made the statement. It is talking about the NEXT PHRASE in the passage where it talks about them being surprised.
As they were surprised in the days of Noah, so it will be when Christ returns.
Yes, but certain conditions must prevail before he returns. And those conditions are rife.
And have been for thousands of years. That is my whole point.
You miss the similarities of Sodom & Gomorrah in today's culture that did not exist until recently. And the pollution and corruption of all flesh in Noah's day. “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6:11) (KJV 1900)
These are signs of the times you are missing.
You should do some history research on how things were in the Roman Empire.
Nothing as widespread and wicked as today. Abortion rates alone separate us from any other time in history.
Clearly not getting anywhere with you.
https://www.logos.com/product/28579/basic-bible-interpretation
Thanks for the link, I'll check into it. But please consider the value of the word "as" as in the days of Noah. It broadens the scope of what Jesus said to the Jewish mind of his day.
I have considered it, and even showed you what it points to.
when Satan, the common "enemy" of mankind, the avowed and implacable enemy of Christ and his people, "shall come" into the world, and into the church, as he will in the latter day; and has already entered "like" an impetuous flood, threatening to carry all before him, introducing a flood of immorality and profaneness, as in the days of Noah and Lot, to which the times of the Son of Man's coming are likened, Lu 17:26 or else a flood of error and heresy of all sorts; see Re 12:15 and likewise a flood of persecution, as will be at the slaying of the witnesses, that hour of temptation that will come upon all the earth, to try the inhabitants of it, Re 3:10.
John Gill. (n.d.). Exposition on the Entire Bible (Is 59:19).
Thank you for offering John Gill's interpretation. Nonetheless, if you take the whole of Scripture in, you will see the full quote of Christ and the full meaning.
I am doing what you suggest. But think of it this way. 1. conditions will exists as they did in Noah's day and in Lot's day. = overt wickedness. 2. Against this backdrop we can expect Christ's return without warning.
That is what I have said since you and I have started this debate. What I am arguing against, is your assertion that somehow those conditions have not always existed.
They always existed but never at today's UNIVERSAL level. Had they existed at the level of Sodom and Gomorrah and at the level they did in Noah's day, Jesus would not be able to use them as examples.
Unless, of course, the purpose was to say it can be at anytime.
Jesus could have easily omitted the setting and said be ready for when you think not etc. But I believe he gives us the setting using the two unique examples of Lot's and Noah's day.
In my eschatology, Jesus' return can be at any time, even today.
I'm not contesting that Dave, do you even read what I say or do you just spout off whatever drive you feel like putting in the box?
I always look forward to your posts. Even if I disagree with them. But I think the "days of Noah" phrase could easily be replaced by "days of Saul, or David" if they did not in themselves have certain descriptive meaning.
