The Sins of the Fathers
Oprah Winfrey gets first look at memorial to lynching victims in Montgomery
How do you bear up under their sins, sharing the same ethnicity, of those who murdered innocent African Americans by the thousands? This also would include Native Americans and Mexicans.
Once, while living in Tennessee during the early 70s, my landlord told of a black man the locals hung for drinking from a "white only" drinking fountain. We later heard how a local cafe closed early and refused to serve an African American family who entered during normal business hours.
How do you relate to this?
Comments
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I have a real problem when people start talking about bearing the sins of other white men. Sins do not transfer to others, they are the fault of those that committed them and nobody else.
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@reformed said:
I have a real problem when people start talking about bearing the sins of other white men. Sins do not transfer to others, they are the fault of those that committed them and nobody else.The Old Testament is rife with God visiting the sins of the fathers to the children. Adam for instants. Granted he was our representative, but nonetheless it did happen.
“keeping loyal love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin. But he by no means leaves the guilty unpunished, responding to the transgression of fathers by dealing with children and children’s children, to the third and fourth generation.”” (Exodus 34:7) (NET)
All of the curses where wicked Israelites, including those in the siege of Jerusalem where the wicked ate their young.
Jeconiah's curse where none of his descendants (including Jesus) would reign in Judea forever. (Of course Jesus reigns in heavenly Jerusalem above). And other instances throughout the Old Testament.
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
I have a real problem when people start talking about bearing the sins of other white men. Sins do not transfer to others, they are the fault of those that committed them and nobody else.The Old Testament is rife with God visiting the sins of the fathers to the children. Adam for instants. Granted he was our representative, but nonetheless it did happen.
“keeping loyal love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin. But he by no means leaves the guilty unpunished, responding to the transgression of fathers by dealing with children and children’s children, to the third and fourth generation.”” (Exodus 34:7) (NET)
All of the curses where wicked Israelites, including those in the siege of Jerusalem where the wicked ate their young.
Jeconiah's curse where none of his descendants (including Jesus) would reign in Judea forever. (Of course Jesus reigns in heavenly Jerusalem above). And other instances throughout the Old Testament.
That is very different than being responsible and held accountable for the sins of others.
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
I have a real problem when people start talking about bearing the sins of other white men. Sins do not transfer to others, they are the fault of those that committed them and nobody else.The Old Testament is rife with God visiting the sins of the fathers to the children. Adam for instants. Granted he was our representative, but nonetheless it did happen.
“keeping loyal love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin. But he by no means leaves the guilty unpunished, responding to the transgression of fathers by dealing with children and children’s children, to the third and fourth generation.”” (Exodus 34:7) (NET)
All of the curses where wicked Israelites, including those in the siege of Jerusalem where the wicked ate their young.
Jeconiah's curse where none of his descendants (including Jesus) would reign in Judea forever. (Of course Jesus reigns in heavenly Jerusalem above). And other instances throughout the Old Testament.
That is very different than being responsible and held accountable for the sins of others.
Nonetheless, it happens.
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
I have a real problem when people start talking about bearing the sins of other white men. Sins do not transfer to others, they are the fault of those that committed them and nobody else.The Old Testament is rife with God visiting the sins of the fathers to the children. Adam for instants. Granted he was our representative, but nonetheless it did happen.
“keeping loyal love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin. But he by no means leaves the guilty unpunished, responding to the transgression of fathers by dealing with children and children’s children, to the third and fourth generation.”” (Exodus 34:7) (NET)
All of the curses where wicked Israelites, including those in the siege of Jerusalem where the wicked ate their young.
Jeconiah's curse where none of his descendants (including Jesus) would reign in Judea forever. (Of course Jesus reigns in heavenly Jerusalem above). And other instances throughout the Old Testament.
That is very different than being responsible and held accountable for the sins of others.
Nonetheless, it happens.
But shouldn't
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
I have a real problem when people start talking about bearing the sins of other white men. Sins do not transfer to others, they are the fault of those that committed them and nobody else.The Old Testament is rife with God visiting the sins of the fathers to the children. Adam for instants. Granted he was our representative, but nonetheless it did happen.
“keeping loyal love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin. But he by no means leaves the guilty unpunished, responding to the transgression of fathers by dealing with children and children’s children, to the third and fourth generation.”” (Exodus 34:7) (NET)
All of the curses where wicked Israelites, including those in the siege of Jerusalem where the wicked ate their young.
Jeconiah's curse where none of his descendants (including Jesus) would reign in Judea forever. (Of course Jesus reigns in heavenly Jerusalem above). And other instances throughout the Old Testament.
That is very different than being responsible and held accountable for the sins of others.
Nonetheless, it happens.
But shouldn't
God did not fail in his plan. He works all things after the council of his will.
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
I have a real problem when people start talking about bearing the sins of other white men. Sins do not transfer to others, they are the fault of those that committed them and nobody else.The Old Testament is rife with God visiting the sins of the fathers to the children. Adam for instants. Granted he was our representative, but nonetheless it did happen.
“keeping loyal love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin. But he by no means leaves the guilty unpunished, responding to the transgression of fathers by dealing with children and children’s children, to the third and fourth generation.”” (Exodus 34:7) (NET)
All of the curses where wicked Israelites, including those in the siege of Jerusalem where the wicked ate their young.
Jeconiah's curse where none of his descendants (including Jesus) would reign in Judea forever. (Of course Jesus reigns in heavenly Jerusalem above). And other instances throughout the Old Testament.
That is very different than being responsible and held accountable for the sins of others.
Nonetheless, it happens.
But shouldn't
God did not fail in his plan. He works all things after the council of his will.
How is that related to what we are talking about?
-
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
I have a real problem when people start talking about bearing the sins of other white men. Sins do not transfer to others, they are the fault of those that committed them and nobody else.The Old Testament is rife with God visiting the sins of the fathers to the children. Adam for instants. Granted he was our representative, but nonetheless it did happen.
“keeping loyal love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin. But he by no means leaves the guilty unpunished, responding to the transgression of fathers by dealing with children and children’s children, to the third and fourth generation.”” (Exodus 34:7) (NET)
All of the curses where wicked Israelites, including those in the siege of Jerusalem where the wicked ate their young.
Jeconiah's curse where none of his descendants (including Jesus) would reign in Judea forever. (Of course Jesus reigns in heavenly Jerusalem above). And other instances throughout the Old Testament.
That is very different than being responsible and held accountable for the sins of others.
Nonetheless, it happens.
But shouldn't
God did not fail in his plan. He works all things after the council of his will.
How is that related to what we are talking about?
Condemning children for the sins of the fathers. If God reprobates entire families, Esau and Edom.
"For I have told him that I am about to judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knew, because his sons brought a curse on themselves and he did not rebuke them. 1 Samuel 3:13
and I will make your house like the house of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, and like the house of Baasha the son of Ahijah, because of the provocation with which you have provoked Me to anger, and because you have made Israel sin.1 Kings 21:22
and so on........ -
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
I have a real problem when people start talking about bearing the sins of other white men. Sins do not transfer to others, they are the fault of those that committed them and nobody else.The Old Testament is rife with God visiting the sins of the fathers to the children. Adam for instants. Granted he was our representative, but nonetheless it did happen.
“keeping loyal love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin. But he by no means leaves the guilty unpunished, responding to the transgression of fathers by dealing with children and children’s children, to the third and fourth generation.”” (Exodus 34:7) (NET)
All of the curses where wicked Israelites, including those in the siege of Jerusalem where the wicked ate their young.
Jeconiah's curse where none of his descendants (including Jesus) would reign in Judea forever. (Of course Jesus reigns in heavenly Jerusalem above). And other instances throughout the Old Testament.
That is very different than being responsible and held accountable for the sins of others.
Nonetheless, it happens.
But shouldn't
God did not fail in his plan. He works all things after the council of his will.
How is that related to what we are talking about?
Condemning children for the sins of the fathers. If God reprobates entire families, Esau and Edom.
"For I have told him that I am about to judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knew, because his sons brought a curse on themselves and he did not rebuke them. 1 Samuel 3:13
and I will make your house like the house of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, and like the house of Baasha the son of Ahijah, because of the provocation with which you have provoked Me to anger, and because you have made Israel sin.1 Kings 21:22
and so on........You are taking things out of context.
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
I have a real problem when people start talking about bearing the sins of other white men. Sins do not transfer to others, they are the fault of those that committed them and nobody else.The Old Testament is rife with God visiting the sins of the fathers to the children. Adam for instants. Granted he was our representative, but nonetheless it did happen.
“keeping loyal love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin. But he by no means leaves the guilty unpunished, responding to the transgression of fathers by dealing with children and children’s children, to the third and fourth generation.”” (Exodus 34:7) (NET)
All of the curses where wicked Israelites, including those in the siege of Jerusalem where the wicked ate their young.
Jeconiah's curse where none of his descendants (including Jesus) would reign in Judea forever. (Of course Jesus reigns in heavenly Jerusalem above). And other instances throughout the Old Testament.
That is very different than being responsible and held accountable for the sins of others.
Nonetheless, it happens.
But shouldn't
God did not fail in his plan. He works all things after the council of his will.
How is that related to what we are talking about?
Condemning children for the sins of the fathers. If God reprobates entire families, Esau and Edom.
"For I have told him that I am about to judge his house forever for the iniquity which he knew, because his sons brought a curse on themselves and he did not rebuke them. 1 Samuel 3:13
and I will make your house like the house of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, and like the house of Baasha the son of Ahijah, because of the provocation with which you have provoked Me to anger, and because you have made Israel sin.1 Kings 21:22
and so on........You are taking things out of context.
How is this? I'm only showing that God curses (reprobates) entire families for generations to come. Simple Calvinism shows this whether you are infra - or supra lapsarian.
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Dave/David,
Are we explaining the text or referring to deeds of the past that manifested themselves in future generations? e.g. social welfare, aids, working with arsenic or radiation. The exposure-outcome will be seen in future generations. Please clarify or narrow this thread to have a fruitful discussion. CM -
@C_M_ said:
Dave/David,
Are we explaining the text or referring to deeds of the past that manifested themselves in future generations? e.g. social welfare, aids, working with arsenic or radiation. The exposure-outcome will be seen in future generations. Please clarify or narrow this thread to have a fruitful discussion. CMWe are speaking Bible.
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@C_M_ said:
Dave/David,
Are we explaining the text or referring to deeds of the past that manifested themselves in future generations? e.g. social welfare, aids, working with arsenic or radiation. The exposure-outcome will be seen in future generations. Please clarify or narrow this thread to have a fruitful discussion. CMI'm talking about how white people today are in no way to be held responsible for the sins of white people in the past. It's a ridiculous notion.
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@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
Dave/David,
Are we explaining the text or referring to deeds of the past that manifested themselves in future generations? e.g. social welfare, aids, working with arsenic or radiation. The exposure-outcome will be seen in future generations. Please clarify or narrow this thread to have a fruitful discussion. CMI'm talking about how white people today are in no way to be held responsible for the sins of white people in the past. It's a ridiculous notion.
I agree. However, they may not be responsible, but they do share the benefits (wealth, education, property, laws, etc.) if a people were oppressed, repressed and depressed and gain and profit were made. The ill-gotten gains are passed on as an inheritance to children and offsprings, estate, etc.
I don't know how much or how well you know American History, but much injustice has taken place with the assistance of segments of the Federal/State Governments. Some steps (by law/personal compassion) need to be taken to right many wrongs, for many people, over many years. CM
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@C_M_ said:
@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
Dave/David,
Are we explaining the text or referring to deeds of the past that manifested themselves in future generations? e.g. social welfare, aids, working with arsenic or radiation. The exposure-outcome will be seen in future generations. Please clarify or narrow this thread to have a fruitful discussion. CMI'm talking about how white people today are in no way to be held responsible for the sins of white people in the past. It's a ridiculous notion.
I agree. However, they may not be responsible, but they do share the benefits (wealth, education, property, laws, etc.) if a people were oppressed, repressed and depressed and gain and profit were made. The ill-gotten gains are passed on as an inheritance to children and offsprings, estate, etc.
I don't know how much or how well you know American History, but much injustice has taken place with the assistance of segments of the Federal/State Governments. Some steps (by law/personal compassion) need to be taken to right many wrongs, for many people, over many years. CM
No they don't. We have had a black president, this race baiting is out of control. Nobody today is impacted by slavery or harmed by things that happened 150 years ago. There are people today who were impacted by segregation etc, but restitution has been made, they are free. Nothing is owed by me or anyone else unless someone actually committed a crime.
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CM, I'm showing generational curses in the bible. But I think we see this today as well where the parents' sins affect generations. Babies born with aids etc. Drunk drivers kill their families along with themselves. Abortion permanently removes entire generations etc.
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@Dave_L said:
CM, I'm showing generational curses in the bible. But I think we see this today as well where the parents' sins affect generations. Babies born with aids etc. Drunk drivers kill their families along with themselves. Abortion permanently removes entire generations etc.I don't think anyone here is disputing that.
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
CM, I'm showing generational curses in the bible. But I think we see this today as well where the parents' sins affect generations. Babies born with aids etc. Drunk drivers kill their families along with themselves. Abortion permanently removes entire generations etc.I don't think anyone here is disputing that.
Just in case they are.........
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@Dave_L said:
Abortion permanently removes entire generations etc.How is this so? A thing must be, to not be.
What wipes out generations are guns and wars. The dropping of the atomic bombs on two Japanese cities, slavery, the murder of Americans, Iqai war, poisoned water in Flint, Michigan, the Vietnam War, The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiments, inadequate medical care of American poor citizenry, KKK lynchings, Oklahoma City Bombing, World Trade Center collapse, etc. These things wipe out generations. They have documented history.
Please read the book: "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee". It is a history of Native Americans in the American West in the 1860s and 1870s, focusing upon the transition from traditional ways of living, to living on reservations and their treatment during that period.
Do they still actually teach American History in its public Schools? Any history for this matter? Let's keep it real when you talk about "permanently removal of entire generations." CM
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@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
Abortion permanently removes entire generations etc.How is this so? A thing must be, to not, to be.
What wipes out generations are guns and wars. The dropping of the atomic bombs on two Japanese cities, slavery, the murder of Americans, Iqai war, poisoned water in Flint, Michigan, the Vietnam War, The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiments, inadequate medical care of American poor citizenry, KKK lynchings, Oklahoma City Bombing, World Trade Center collapse, etc. These things wipe out generations. They have documented history.
Please read the book: "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee". It is a history of Native Americans in the American West in the 1860s and 1870s, focusing upon the transition from traditional ways of living, to living on reservations and their treatment during that period.
Do they still actually teach American History in its public Schools? Any history for this matter? Let's keep it real when you talk about "permanently removal of entire generations." CM
Abortion wipes out generations because it kills millions.
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@reformed said:
Abortion wipes out generations because it kills millions.
If you are referring to the 6 million Jews of WW II, you make sense. That's real! CM
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@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
I don't know how much or how well you know American History, but much injustice has taken place with the assistance of segments of the Federal/State Governments. Some steps (by law/personal compassion) need to be taken to right many wrongs, for many people, over many years. CM
No they don't. We have had a black president, this race baiting is out of control. Nobody today is impacted by slavery or harmed by things that happened 150 years ago. There are people today who were impacted by segregation etc, but restitution has been made, they are free. Nothing is owed by me or anyone else unless someone actually committed a crime.
David,
Please re-read my post closely. Until I can comment justly, check with Jan to see how you can erase your above post. Please, it is too telling you as a person, your comprehension of American History, bias education, etc. The sad truth is, you believe what you wrote. Please don't ever preach, your above statement, in your church. CM -
@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
Abortion permanently removes entire generations etc.How is this so? A thing must be, to not be.
What wipes out generations are guns and wars. The dropping of the atomic bombs on two Japanese cities, slavery, the murder of Americans, Iqai war, poisoned water in Flint, Michigan, the Vietnam War, The Tuskegee Syphilis Experiments, inadequate medical care of American poor citizenry, KKK lynchings, Oklahoma City Bombing, World Trade Center collapse, etc. These things wipe out generations. They have documented history.
Please read the book: "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee". It is a history of Native Americans in the American West in the 1860s and 1870s, focusing upon the transition from traditional ways of living, to living on reservations and their treatment during that period.
Do they still actually teach American History in its public Schools? Any history for this matter? Let's keep it real when you talk about "permanently removal of entire generations." CM
If you look at abortion biblically, it most certainly removes potentially millions of future generations from ever existing. Study Traducianism, the biblical view that we are personally the sum total of our ancestors, and would not exists if any had been different from who they were.
Post edited by Dave_L on -
Are you saying the killing of babies via abortion doesn't happen??? I'm confused....
@C_M_ said:
@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
I don't know how much or how well you know American History, but much injustice has taken place with the assistance of segments of the Federal/State Governments. Some steps (by law/personal compassion) need to be taken to right many wrongs, for many people, over many years. CM
No they don't. We have had a black president, this race baiting is out of control. Nobody today is impacted by slavery or harmed by things that happened 150 years ago. There are people today who were impacted by segregation etc, but restitution has been made, they are free. Nothing is owed by me or anyone else unless someone actually committed a crime.
David,
Please re-read my post closely. Until I can comment justly, check with Jan to see how you can erase your above post. Please, it is too telling you as a person, your comprehension of American History, bias education, etc. The sad truth is, you believe what you wrote. Please don't ever preach, your above statement, in your church. CMWhy would I erase my post? I haven't said anything out of line.
