Death before the Fall?

Dave_L

I wonder if death isn't a natural part of God's creation. But spiritual death is not. When Adam died after sinning, he died spiritually immediately which he would not have had he remained sinless. But he died physically some 900 years later as he would have anyway.

The unnatural death Adam died was spiritual death. Viewed as separation from the love of God and exposure to his wrath instead. And it was this death that spread to all, with its other out workings of wrath, sickness and violence. Based on our union with Adam.

If physical death in the animal kingdom and ours is not natural, and resulted from Adam's sin as many insist, it could well be that God created violence and death preemptively. Having incorporated the certainty of Adam's sin into his plan. Just as Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world.

When God saw all that he created was good, even in view of this it certainly was if we consider the big picture.

I haven't settled in on this but hope to see what others think.

Jan

I consider myself an old-earth progressive vreationist, and have no issue with animal and plant death occurring prior to the fall.

The two relevant passages that young-earth creationists usually take as evidence that there was no animal death are Romans 5:12 and Genesis 1:31.

As for Romans 5:12, this passage is about human death. It clearly says that death spread to all people, not to all of creation.

Here's a Facebook post by Hugh Ross about the topic, and an article by Lee Irons.
As for Genesis 1:31, young earthers make the mistake assuming that animal death would not be "very good". Animal death controls population size, provides us with delicious pork chops, and animals have no immortal soul like we do. God's command before the fall was to subdue the earth - which includes plants and animals.

Dave_L

@Jan said:
I consider myself an old-earth progressive vreationist, and have no issue with animal and plant death occurring prior to the fall.

The two relevant passages that young-earth creationists usually take as evidence that there was no animal death are Romans 5:12 and Genesis 1:31.

As for Romans 5:12, this passage is about human death. It clearly says that death spread to all people, not to all of creation.

Here's a Facebook post by Hugh Ross about the topic, and an article by Lee Irons.
As for Genesis 1:31, young earthers make the mistake assuming that animal death would not be "very good". Animal death controls population size, provides us with delicious pork chops, and animals have no immortal soul like we do. God's command before the fall was to subdue the earth - which includes plants and animals.

Thanks...interesting.

C Mc

Gentlemen (Jan/Dave),
Let's take a step back. God made Adam and Eve (perfect-"in the Image God"--complete and without decay or deficiencies). The earth was "good." There were not death or any need for death. Our first parents didn't experience the death of a blade of grass before the fall. In fact, Adam and Eve were vegetarians, but better yet, vegans before fall. Meat eating was introduced, in command/directive, only after the flood, more out of necessity because all the plant life were destroyed by the flood waters. Flesh-eating was to be a "stop-gap" measure only. Our bodies, teeth, and our digestive system were designed for a plant-based diet. Let's not lose sight of the exception and the rule.

Death came about as a result of sin. Sin separates decay and destroys. This is where the Rom 5:15, text fits in here. For now, consider this: No death before sin. Can there be death before life? CM

C Mc

NO DEATH BEFORE SIN: Furthermore...
Death is an enemy! When God created the human family, He designed that its members should live forever. Death goes against our most basic nature. And that’s because, from inception, we were created to live forever. Death was to be unknown to us.

In Adam, the whole human race was initiated into sin and guilt. He becomes the source of sin, and Christ (the Second Adam) becomes the Source of deliverance from sin, both its guilt and its power. Obviously, one cannot fully explain sin (the “mystery of iniquity” or “lawlessness” [2 Thess. 2:7, KJV and NKJV]), but Paul declares that in Christ there is hope for victory over it.

Dave_L

Thanks CM. This is why I tempered my original post with God building death into the creation preemptively based on the certainty of Adam's sin. That is, God designed sharks and other carnivores around this principle. Even if they didn't kill before the fall took place in time. But even if death occured before that time, it would have been based on Adam's sin.

[Deleted User]

@C_M_ said:
Death came about as a result of sin. Sin separates decay and destroys. This is where the Rom 5:15, text fits in here. For now, consider this: No death before sin. Can there be death before life? CM

God had clearly told Adam that he would "die the death" ("surely die") on the very day he would transgress God's commandment and thereby would sin.

So then, the rather simple logical and reasonable conclusion from reading the rest of the record in Gen 3 is that Adam did not die (in the sense of "death" as the end of his natural life on earth) on that very day ... thus God could not have been speaking about death as the end of man's natural life on earth. It then follows, that this type of death (a man's end of natural life on earth) can not be the result of sin.

Now then, what type of "death" did occur on the very day Adam sinned as a result? What happened on that day is that because of his sin, Adam was with his sin a dead man, having forfeited the eternal life which would have been in store for him. The result of sin, and the death Adam experienced on that very day was "death" (in the sense of "no life in eternity in the presence of God").
Correspondingly, it is eternal life (and not prolonged natural life on earth) that is the result of redemption and salvation from sin.

[Deleted User]

@C_M_ said:
NO DEATH BEFORE SIN: Furthermore...
Death is an enemy! When God created the human family, He designed that its members should live forever. Death goes against our most basic nature. And that’s because, from inception, we were created to live forever. Death was to be unknown to us.

I agree that God's plan for the human family He created was to have eternal life .... however, I do not believe that this was to happen as "continue to live a natural life on earth forever".

I deem it necessary to make a clear distinction between (a) death as the end of man's natural life on earth, and (b) death as no eternal life in the presence of God. See my earlier comment where I explained in more detail some important Scripture facts about these.

GaoLu

I presume then that to you "death" for a person means they utterly cease to exist, body. soul and spirit; and God sort of re-creates them in the future? Maybe resurrects or recreates certain of their molecules somehow?

[Deleted User]

@GaoLu said:
I presume then that to you "death" for a person means they utterly cease to exist, body. soul and spirit; and God sort of re-creates them in the future? Maybe resurrects or recreates certain of their molecules somehow?

I believe that a careful reading of 1Co 15:35-ff provides the answer:

1Kor 15,35 But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up ? and with what body do they come ?
1Kor 15,36 [Thou] fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Kor 15,37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other [grain]:
1Kor 15,38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
...
...

C Mc

@Wolfgang said:

@C_M_ said:
NO DEATH BEFORE SIN: Furthermore...

I agree that God's plan for the human family He created was to have eternal life .... however, I do not believe that this was to happen as "continue to live a natural life on earth forever".

I wonder, why not? No sin, no death, no decay, no separation. If Adam and Eve (two grown people) didn't disobey, they would be where God placed them forever. They and their surroundings were perfect. CM

[Deleted User]

@C_M_ said:

@Wolfgang said:
I agree that God's plan for the human family He created was to have eternal life .... however, I do not believe that this was to happen as "continue to live a natural life on earth forever".

I wonder, why not? No sin, no death, no decay, no separation. If Adam and Eve (two grown people) didn't disobey, they would be where God placed them forever. They and their surroundings were perfect. CM

Cp. Gen 3 ... what death happened on the day Adam sinned? was it "death" as the end of his natural life on earth or was it "death" as the loss of eternal life? Which life - "natural life on earth" or "eternal life in the presence of God [heaven]" - is restored through redemption from sin?

Where in Scripture are we told that God placed them on earth forever?

Was the garden in which they were placed "perfect" (sort of like "an all good utopia") or was evil present there in the garden? where did temptation happen, outside or inside the garden?

I would think that the obvious answers to those simple questions will help to understand and give you an answer to your question "why not?" ...