Matthew 19:9 Divorce and Remarriage loophole?
Comments
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
It remains, IF this happened, as it does every day not only in the world, but in churches too. Adultery would result. Do churches send more to hell than they do to heaven in today's divorce for any reason climate?Divorce is unforgiveness, and that too sends people to hell.
First, churches do not send people to hell.
Second, you did not answer any of my points.
Third, I don't believe divorce and unforgiveness are synonyms. And I don't believe there is Scripture to back that unforgiveness sends people to hell.How many divorces do you have in your church? Are you divorced?
Why are you now trying to point fingers instead of actually answering the questions that have shown flaws in your interpretation? Your questions are neither relevant to this discussion or appropriate for a public forum.
Thanks for the reply. We have other problems with your view. One is: “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come so that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.” (John 10:10) (NET)
I've noticed healing and preservation of families in churches where divorce does not exist, unless an unbeliever divorces a believer. And these families are strong and thriving.
But your doctrine helps destroy families when they reach their breaking point. It gives them open access to unforgiveness, adultery and in a word, a slippery slope to hell.
So I would think any divorce option is satanic in nature, because it does what Jesus said he came to undo.
We've already established the innocent wife divorced from an adulterous husband in Matthew 19:9b also commits adultery along with the man she marries. Proving your use of the "except clause" is in error.
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
It remains, IF this happened, as it does every day not only in the world, but in churches too. Adultery would result. Do churches send more to hell than they do to heaven in today's divorce for any reason climate?Divorce is unforgiveness, and that too sends people to hell.
First, churches do not send people to hell.
Second, you did not answer any of my points.
Third, I don't believe divorce and unforgiveness are synonyms. And I don't believe there is Scripture to back that unforgiveness sends people to hell.How many divorces do you have in your church? Are you divorced?
Why are you now trying to point fingers instead of actually answering the questions that have shown flaws in your interpretation? Your questions are neither relevant to this discussion or appropriate for a public forum.
Thanks for the reply. We have other problems with your view. One is: “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come so that they may have life, and may have it abundantly.” (John 10:10) (NET)
This has nothing to do with the topic.
I've noticed healing and preservation of families in churches where divorce does not exist, unless an unbeliever divorces a believer. And these families are strong and thriving.
Nobody is disputing that and is irrelevant to the topic. The topic is not, is it better to not divorce than to divorce, the topic is whether or not divorce and remarriage are permitted in certain situations according to Scripture and the answer is overwhelmingly, yes, it is.
But your doctrine helps destroy families when they reach their breaking point. It gives them open access to unforgiveness, adultery and in a word, a slippery slope to hell.
So I would think any divorce option is satanic in nature, because it does what Jesus said he came to undo.
???
We've already established the innocent wife divorced from an adulterous husband in Matthew 19:9b also commits adultery along with the man she marries. Proving your use of the "except clause" is in error.
No we have not established that at all. What we have established is that you have misread the passage and don't know the actual scenario, then you try to change the scenario to fit your narrative but it doesn't work that way.
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Here's something else we touched on. Jesus abolished the Old Covenant (divorce). And no where does he import it into the New Covenant. Divorce does not exist in any true sense. So everyone who "divorces" and remarries commits adultery. Because God does not recognize human divorce laws.
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@Dave_L said:
Here's something else we touched on. Jesus abolished the Old Covenant (divorce). And no where does he import it into the New Covenant. Divorce does not exist in any true sense. So everyone who "divorces" and remarries commits adultery. Because God does not recognize human divorce laws.We have no evidence of that. Divorce also was not part of the covenant.
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
Here's something else we touched on. Jesus abolished the Old Covenant (divorce). And no where does he import it into the New Covenant. Divorce does not exist in any true sense. So everyone who "divorces" and remarries commits adultery. Because God does not recognize human divorce laws.We have no evidence of that. Divorce also was not part of the covenant.
Divorce was part of the OT civil law.
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
Here's something else we touched on. Jesus abolished the Old Covenant (divorce). And no where does he import it into the New Covenant. Divorce does not exist in any true sense. So everyone who "divorces" and remarries commits adultery. Because God does not recognize human divorce laws.We have no evidence of that. Divorce also was not part of the covenant.
Divorce was part of the OT civil law.
Which is different than the covenant. That being said, you can't say divorce was abolished by Christ. Christ gave an allotment for divorce and so did Paul. So obviously it was not abolished.
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
Here's something else we touched on. Jesus abolished the Old Covenant (divorce). And no where does he import it into the New Covenant. Divorce does not exist in any true sense. So everyone who "divorces" and remarries commits adultery. Because God does not recognize human divorce laws.We have no evidence of that. Divorce also was not part of the covenant.
Divorce was part of the OT civil law.
Which is different than the covenant. That being said, you can't say divorce was abolished by Christ. Christ gave an allotment for divorce and so did Paul. So obviously it was not abolished.
The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. This included all of the peripheral laws as well.
“And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.” (Exodus 34:28) (KJV 1900)
“And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.” (Deuteronomy 4:13) (KJV 1900)
and so on.....
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
Here's something else we touched on. Jesus abolished the Old Covenant (divorce). And no where does he import it into the New Covenant. Divorce does not exist in any true sense. So everyone who "divorces" and remarries commits adultery. Because God does not recognize human divorce laws.We have no evidence of that. Divorce also was not part of the covenant.
Divorce was part of the OT civil law.
Which is different than the covenant. That being said, you can't say divorce was abolished by Christ. Christ gave an allotment for divorce and so did Paul. So obviously it was not abolished.
The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. This included all of the peripheral laws as well.
“And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.” (Exodus 34:28) (KJV 1900)
“And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.” (Deuteronomy 4:13) (KJV 1900)
and so on.....
I'm noticing a pattern that when someone points something out to you that doesn't fit your theology you just ignore it or try to distract with an irrelevant passage or anecdote. Please address what I said concerning Jesus and Paul's words.
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
Here's something else we touched on. Jesus abolished the Old Covenant (divorce). And no where does he import it into the New Covenant. Divorce does not exist in any true sense. So everyone who "divorces" and remarries commits adultery. Because God does not recognize human divorce laws.We have no evidence of that. Divorce also was not part of the covenant.
Divorce was part of the OT civil law.
Which is different than the covenant. That being said, you can't say divorce was abolished by Christ. Christ gave an allotment for divorce and so did Paul. So obviously it was not abolished.
The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. This included all of the peripheral laws as well.
“And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.” (Exodus 34:28) (KJV 1900)
“And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.” (Deuteronomy 4:13) (KJV 1900)
and so on.....
The NT does not provide for divorce. Paul says if an unbeliever divorces a believer, the believer is not under bondage to them. But the believer must remain single. When Jesus abolished the Old Covenant, he did not import divorce, which BTW he hates, into the New Covenant.
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@Dave_L said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
Here's something else we touched on. Jesus abolished the Old Covenant (divorce). And no where does he import it into the New Covenant. Divorce does not exist in any true sense. So everyone who "divorces" and remarries commits adultery. Because God does not recognize human divorce laws.We have no evidence of that. Divorce also was not part of the covenant.
Divorce was part of the OT civil law.
Which is different than the covenant. That being said, you can't say divorce was abolished by Christ. Christ gave an allotment for divorce and so did Paul. So obviously it was not abolished.
The Ten Commandments were the Old Covenant. This included all of the peripheral laws as well.
“And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.” (Exodus 34:28) (KJV 1900)
“And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.” (Deuteronomy 4:13) (KJV 1900)
and so on.....
The NT does not provide for divorce. Paul says if an unbeliever divorces a believer, the believer is not under bondage to them. But the believer must remain single. When Jesus abolished the Old Covenant, he did not import divorce, which BTW he hates, into the New Covenant.
The very passage we are discussing suggests otherwise.
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Find an example of Christians divorcing Christians in the NT. We have mention of unbelievers divorcing believers. But that is all.
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@Dave_L said:
Find an example of Christians divorcing Christians in the NT. We have mention of unbelievers divorcing believers. But that is all.Is that really the best argument you have? That's not even an argument at all. The NT is not a chronicle of all the lives of NT believers so you cannot base your argument on that. I have based my argument on actual Scripture, I have no idea what you are basing yours on.
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Thanks for your continued interest in this. I'm saying Jesus abolished divorce when he abolished the Law on the cross. This means, people marry for life without any NT provision for divorce. If God provided for divorce under the New Covenant, we would have NT scripture saying so.
But you think it is OK to use the now defunct divorce laws which I am saying result in adultery. Also, these defunct laws break families when they reach their weakest point. Which involves those who teach them in the devil's work. Jesus heals and protects marriages.
So, this is why I ask for scriptural examples of Christians not forgiving Christians in the NT, but divorcing them instead.
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@Dave_L said:
Thanks for your continued interest in this. I'm saying Jesus abolished divorce when he abolished the Law on the cross. This means, people marry for life without any NT provision for divorce. If God provided for divorce under the New Covenant, we would have NT scripture saying so.That's just it Dave, we DO have NT Scripture saying so.
But you think it is OK to use the now defunct divorce laws which I am saying result in adultery. Also, these defunct laws break families when they reach their weakest point. Which involves those who teach them in the devil's work. Jesus heals and protects marriages.
That is your own interpretation but definitely not based on Scripture. There are certain scenarios when your interpretation of divorce is correct, but not all.
So, this is why I ask for scriptural examples of Christians not forgiving Christians in the NT, but divorcing them instead.
Jesus' and Paul's words. We don't need a specific example of a specific couple. Why do you need a specific example? That makes no sense.
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This means, nobody in the NT teaches your position.............
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@Dave_L said:
This means, nobody in the NT teaches your position.............Except for Paul and Jesus, but if you think they are nobody.....
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If Jesus abolished divorce along with the Old Covenant on the cross, which he did, nobody teaches it as an option for Christians. And all who divorce are not divorced in God's sight. But are guilty of unforgiveness and adultery if the remarry.
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@Dave_L said:
If Jesus abolished divorce along with the Old Covenant on the cross, which he did, nobody teaches it as an option for Christians. And all who divorce are not divorced in God's sight. But are guilty of unforgiveness and adultery if they remarry.
He did not abolish the Old Covenant. How do you come to that conclusion? And once again, you ignore that both Jesus and Paul gave allotments for divorce. So how does that reconcile with your position?
And how does divorce make you guilty of unforgiveness? You need to answer these questions to refute my position but you continually ignore those points.
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“Indeed, a time is coming,” says the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I delivered them from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them,” says the LORD.” (Jeremiah 31:31–32) (NET)
“When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13) (NET)
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@Dave_L said:
“Indeed, a time is coming,” says the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I delivered them from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them,” says the LORD.” (Jeremiah 31:31–32) (NET)
“When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13) (NET)
That is very different than abolishing it, Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law, but that still doesn't address the other points I made to you that you conveniently ignore.
Paul very clearly states in 1 Cor 7 that there are circumstances in which divorce are permitted. This was AFTER the death on the cross by Christ. So this idea about the old covenant is irrelevant and you now have to wrestle with the NT and leave the OT out of it because it doesn't help your argument.
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
“Indeed, a time is coming,” says the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I delivered them from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them,” says the LORD.” (Jeremiah 31:31–32) (NET)
“When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13) (NET)
That is very different than abolishing it, Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law, but that still doesn't address the other points I made to you that you conveniently ignore.
“He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.” (Colossians 2:14) (NET)
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
“Indeed, a time is coming,” says the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I delivered them from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them,” says the LORD.” (Jeremiah 31:31–32) (NET)
“When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13) (NET)
That is very different than abolishing it, Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law, but that still doesn't address the other points I made to you that you conveniently ignore.
“He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.” (Colossians 2:14) (NET)
We are off of that topic, we are moving on to the fact that the NT allots for divorce. Do you have no answer to that?
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
“Indeed, a time is coming,” says the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I delivered them from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them,” says the LORD.” (Jeremiah 31:31–32) (NET)
“When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13) (NET)
That is very different than abolishing it, Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law, but that still doesn't address the other points I made to you that you conveniently ignore.
“He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.” (Colossians 2:14) (NET)
We are off of that topic, we are moving on to the fact that the NT allots for divorce. Do you have no answer to that?
We are quite on topic. I presented 4 problems with your view, we are discussing a second problem at this time. Prove from scripture Christians can divorce Christians. Or provide examples from Holy Writ where they did. Jesus abolished divorce when he abolished the Old Covenant.
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
“Indeed, a time is coming,” says the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.It will not be like the old covenant that I made with their ancestors when I delivered them from Egypt. For they violated that covenant, even though I was like a faithful husband to them,” says the LORD.” (Jeremiah 31:31–32) (NET)
“When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.” (Hebrews 8:13) (NET)
That is very different than abolishing it, Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law, but that still doesn't address the other points I made to you that you conveniently ignore.
“He has destroyed what was against us, a certificate of indebtedness expressed in decrees opposed to us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.” (Colossians 2:14) (NET)
We are off of that topic, we are moving on to the fact that the NT allots for divorce. Do you have no answer to that?
We are quite on topic. I presented 4 problems with your view, we are discussing a second problem at this time. Prove from scripture Christians can divorce Christians. Or provide examples from Holy Writ where they did. Jesus abolished divorce when he abolished the Old Covenant.
I have addressed every one of your problems, I have also proven that there are circumstances where Christians can divorce Christians, from Jesus' own words.
At this point, the only person who has not refuted claims and shown from Scripture a backing of their position is you.
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We have not seen any scriptural support from you proving we are still under the Old Covenant, or even part of it.
We have not seen any scriptural support saying Christians can Not Forgive and divorce each other.
We have not seen any scriptural support from you saying the innocent wife, divorced from the adulterous husband in Matthew 19:9 Does Not commit adultery when she remarries. Jesus says she does, along with the man she marries.
We have not seen any scriptural support from you saying we must forgive "except" for adultery.
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@Dave_L said:
We have not seen any scriptural support from you proving we are still under the Old Covenant, or even part of it.Nothing to do with this topic
We have not seen any scriptural support saying Christians can Not Forgive and divorce each other.
I've never claimed that. But I also don't think divorce and unforgiveness are bound together.
We have not seen any scriptural support from you saying the innocent wife, divorced from the adulterous husband in Matthew 19:9 Does Not commit adultery when she remarries. Jesus says she does, along with the man she marries.
I've given support that in that verse there is no innocent wife. The wife in the except clause was the adulterer.
We have not seen any scriptural support from you saying we must forgive "except" for adultery.
I've never claimed such.
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You're all hat and no cattle Reformed. Simply back your claims with scripture and the ranch is yours.
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@Dave_L said:
You're all hat and no cattle Reformed. Simply back your claims with scripture and the ranch is yours.I already did, the only one not doing so is you.
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We've been turning several stones in this discussion. What about the WCF's permission of divorce on grounds of adultery? Wouldn't this be a damnable heresy in that divorce involves unforgiveness, and we must forgive before God will forgive us?
Not to mention, the entire mention of divorce by the WCF is void of meaning since it was an OT allowance terminated by the New Covenant.
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@Dave_L said:
We've been turning several stones in this discussion. What about the WCF's permission of divorce on grounds of adultery? Wouldn't this be a damnable heresy in that divorce involves unforgiveness, and we must forgive before God will forgive us?
Divorce is not equal to unforgiveness. So no. Jesus allows for this in the passage this thread is about.
Not to mention, the entire mention of divorce by the WCF is void of meaning since it was an OT allowance terminated by the New Covenant.
You have yet to prove this with Scripture.
