"Atheists Are Sometimes More Religious Than Christians"
Beyonce performs at the Grammy Awards in Los Angeles in 2017. Lucy Nicholson / Reuters
A new study shows how poorly we understand the beliefs of people who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular.
Americans are deeply religious people—and atheists are no exception. Western Europeans are deeply secular people—and Christians are no exception.
These twin statements are generalizations, but they capture the essence of a fascinating finding in a new study about Christian identity in Western Europe. By surveying almost 25,000 people in 15 countries in the region, and comparing the results with data previously gathered in the U.S., the Pew Research Center discovered three things.
First, researchers confirmed the widely known fact that, overall, Americans are much more religious than Western Europeans. They gauged religious commitment using standard questions, including “Do you believe in God with absolute certainty?” and “Do you pray daily?”
Second, the researchers found that American “nones”—those who identify as atheist, agnostic, or nothing in particular—are more religious than European nones. The notion that religiously unaffiliated people can be religious at all may seem contradictory, but if you disaffiliate from organized religion it does not necessarily mean you’ve sworn off belief in God, say, or prayer...
See also: Being Christian in Western Europe
The majority of Europe’s Christians are non-practicing, but they differ from religiously unaffiliated people in their views on God, attitudes toward Muslims and immigrants, and opinions about religion’s role in society
"Atheists Are Sometimes More Religious Than Christians". Are you inclined to believe this? Is it possible? If so, how? CM
Comments
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I absolutely believe this. When Dawkins said that even the second coming of Jesus wouldn't convince him of the existence of God, as it would be more likely a hallucination, that's pretty much one of the highest expressions of religious conviction I've ever heard.
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I think Atheists are courageous and honest. Because they disavow religious superstition and reject being intimidated by threats they have no way of substantiating. Christians would all be atheists too had God not made himself known to them in the New Birth.
“The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16) (NET)
So it is not blind faith at work in the Christian, nor superstition, but an awareness of God through his presence in our hearts that leads us to believe. Just as we believe the chair we sit in exists. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
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@Dave_L said:
I think Atheists are courageous and honest. Because they disavow religious superstition and reject being intimidated by threats they have no way of substantiating. Christians would all be atheists too had God not made himself known to them in the New Birth.“The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16) (NET)
So it is not blind faith at work in the Christian, nor superstition, but an awareness of God through his presence in our hearts that leads us to believe. Just as we believe the chair we sit in exists. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
I disagree. I don't think they are courageous or honest. They are foolish, don't confuse that with courage. They are not honest, the Bible tells us that nobody truly believes there is no God. They just reject God. Big difference.
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Psalm 14:1
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
I think Atheists are courageous and honest. Because they disavow religious superstition and reject being intimidated by threats they have no way of substantiating. Christians would all be atheists too had God not made himself known to them in the New Birth.“The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16) (NET)
So it is not blind faith at work in the Christian, nor superstition, but an awareness of God through his presence in our hearts that leads us to believe. Just as we believe the chair we sit in exists. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
I disagree. I don't think they are courageous or honest. They are foolish, don't confuse that with courage. They are not honest, the Bible tells us that nobody truly believes there is no God. They just reject God. Big difference.
I'm referring to their refusal to be intimidated by superstition. Whis is what you have if you do not experience Christ personally. But to lump all together as being dishonest is judging others. Granted, people often are honest for the wrong reasons.
-
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
I think Atheists are courageous and honest. Because they disavow religious superstition and reject being intimidated by threats they have no way of substantiating. Christians would all be atheists too had God not made himself known to them in the New Birth.“The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16) (NET)
So it is not blind faith at work in the Christian, nor superstition, but an awareness of God through his presence in our hearts that leads us to believe. Just as we believe the chair we sit in exists. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
I disagree. I don't think they are courageous or honest. They are foolish, don't confuse that with courage. They are not honest, the Bible tells us that nobody truly believes there is no God. They just reject God. Big difference.
I'm referring to their refusal to be intimidated by superstition. Whis is what you have if you do not experience Christ personally. But to lump all together as being dishonest is judging others. Granted, people often are honest for the wrong reasons.
Romans says everyone knows God exists so yes, they are dishonest. Even if it means they are being dishonest with themselves they are dishonest. That's not judging, that's biblical.
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
I think Atheists are courageous and honest. Because they disavow religious superstition and reject being intimidated by threats they have no way of substantiating. Christians would all be atheists too had God not made himself known to them in the New Birth.“The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16) (NET)
So it is not blind faith at work in the Christian, nor superstition, but an awareness of God through his presence in our hearts that leads us to believe. Just as we believe the chair we sit in exists. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
I disagree. I don't think they are courageous or honest. They are foolish, don't confuse that with courage. They are not honest, the Bible tells us that nobody truly believes there is no God. They just reject God. Big difference.
I'm referring to their refusal to be intimidated by superstition. Whis is what you have if you do not experience Christ personally. But to lump all together as being dishonest is judging others. Granted, people often are honest for the wrong reasons.
Romans says everyone knows God exists so yes, they are dishonest. Even if it means they are being dishonest with themselves they are dishonest. That's not judging, that's biblical.
It does not say this. It says evidence exists to leave them without excuse. But who can believe in God in any true sense apart from the new birth? Idols, which any can believe in do not count.
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
I think Atheists are courageous and honest. Because they disavow religious superstition and reject being intimidated by threats they have no way of substantiating. Christians would all be atheists too had God not made himself known to them in the New Birth.“The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16) (NET)
So it is not blind faith at work in the Christian, nor superstition, but an awareness of God through his presence in our hearts that leads us to believe. Just as we believe the chair we sit in exists. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
I disagree. I don't think they are courageous or honest. They are foolish, don't confuse that with courage. They are not honest, the Bible tells us that nobody truly believes there is no God. They just reject God. Big difference.
I'm referring to their refusal to be intimidated by superstition. Whis is what you have if you do not experience Christ personally. But to lump all together as being dishonest is judging others. Granted, people often are honest for the wrong reasons.
Romans says everyone knows God exists so yes, they are dishonest. Even if it means they are being dishonest with themselves they are dishonest. That's not judging, that's biblical.
It does not say this. It says evidence exists to leave them without excuse. But who can believe in God in any true sense apart from the new birth? Idols, which any can believe in do not count.
Satan believes and knows there is a God.
That being said Romans 1:21 clearly states they know there is a God but they reject God.
-
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
I think Atheists are courageous and honest. Because they disavow religious superstition and reject being intimidated by threats they have no way of substantiating. Christians would all be atheists too had God not made himself known to them in the New Birth.“The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16) (NET)
So it is not blind faith at work in the Christian, nor superstition, but an awareness of God through his presence in our hearts that leads us to believe. Just as we believe the chair we sit in exists. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
I disagree. I don't think they are courageous or honest. They are foolish, don't confuse that with courage. They are not honest, the Bible tells us that nobody truly believes there is no God. They just reject God. Big difference.
I'm referring to their refusal to be intimidated by superstition. Whis is what you have if you do not experience Christ personally. But to lump all together as being dishonest is judging others. Granted, people often are honest for the wrong reasons.
Romans says everyone knows God exists so yes, they are dishonest. Even if it means they are being dishonest with themselves they are dishonest. That's not judging, that's biblical.
It does not say this. It says evidence exists to leave them without excuse. But who can believe in God in any true sense apart from the new birth? Idols, which any can believe in do not count.
Satan believes and knows there is a God.
That being said Romans 1:21 clearly states they know there is a God but they reject God.
Satan believes but not by faith. An atheist cannot believe having biblical faith apart from first being born again. If they did believe, it would be more like those who choose to believe in "blind faith" not knowing the true God personally.
-
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
I think Atheists are courageous and honest. Because they disavow religious superstition and reject being intimidated by threats they have no way of substantiating. Christians would all be atheists too had God not made himself known to them in the New Birth.“The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16) (NET)
So it is not blind faith at work in the Christian, nor superstition, but an awareness of God through his presence in our hearts that leads us to believe. Just as we believe the chair we sit in exists. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
I disagree. I don't think they are courageous or honest. They are foolish, don't confuse that with courage. They are not honest, the Bible tells us that nobody truly believes there is no God. They just reject God. Big difference.
I'm referring to their refusal to be intimidated by superstition. Whis is what you have if you do not experience Christ personally. But to lump all together as being dishonest is judging others. Granted, people often are honest for the wrong reasons.
Romans says everyone knows God exists so yes, they are dishonest. Even if it means they are being dishonest with themselves they are dishonest. That's not judging, that's biblical.
It does not say this. It says evidence exists to leave them without excuse. But who can believe in God in any true sense apart from the new birth? Idols, which any can believe in do not count.
Satan believes and knows there is a God.
That being said Romans 1:21 clearly states they know there is a God but they reject God.
Satan believes but not by faith. An atheist cannot believe having biblical faith apart from first being born again. If they did believe, it would be more like those who choose to believe in "blind faith" not knowing the true God personally.
We are not talking about faith, we are talking about existence and belief of that existence. Why are you defending people when the Bible says they are indefensible?
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
I think Atheists are courageous and honest. Because they disavow religious superstition and reject being intimidated by threats they have no way of substantiating. Christians would all be atheists too had God not made himself known to them in the New Birth.“The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16) (NET)
So it is not blind faith at work in the Christian, nor superstition, but an awareness of God through his presence in our hearts that leads us to believe. Just as we believe the chair we sit in exists. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
I disagree. I don't think they are courageous or honest. They are foolish, don't confuse that with courage. They are not honest, the Bible tells us that nobody truly believes there is no God. They just reject God. Big difference.
I'm referring to their refusal to be intimidated by superstition. Whis is what you have if you do not experience Christ personally. But to lump all together as being dishonest is judging others. Granted, people often are honest for the wrong reasons.
Romans says everyone knows God exists so yes, they are dishonest. Even if it means they are being dishonest with themselves they are dishonest. That's not judging, that's biblical.
It does not say this. It says evidence exists to leave them without excuse. But who can believe in God in any true sense apart from the new birth? Idols, which any can believe in do not count.
Satan believes and knows there is a God.
That being said Romans 1:21 clearly states they know there is a God but they reject God.
Satan believes but not by faith. An atheist cannot believe having biblical faith apart from first being born again. If they did believe, it would be more like those who choose to believe in "blind faith" not knowing the true God personally.
We are not talking about faith, we are talking about existence and belief of that existence. Why are you defending people when the Bible says they are indefensible?
Satan is an angelic being who has interacted with God personally from the beginning. So you cannot compare the Atheists to him. You can only compare them to yourself. And if you had anything to do with your salvation, then please, hold them accountable. But since you did not, pity them as you would a blind person walking over a cliff.
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
I think Atheists are courageous and honest. Because they disavow religious superstition and reject being intimidated by threats they have no way of substantiating. Christians would all be atheists too had God not made himself known to them in the New Birth.“The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16) (NET)
So it is not blind faith at work in the Christian, nor superstition, but an awareness of God through his presence in our hearts that leads us to believe. Just as we believe the chair we sit in exists. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
I disagree. I don't think they are courageous or honest. They are foolish, don't confuse that with courage. They are not honest, the Bible tells us that nobody truly believes there is no God. They just reject God. Big difference.
I'm referring to their refusal to be intimidated by superstition. Whis is what you have if you do not experience Christ personally. But to lump all together as being dishonest is judging others. Granted, people often are honest for the wrong reasons.
Romans says everyone knows God exists so yes, they are dishonest. Even if it means they are being dishonest with themselves they are dishonest. That's not judging, that's biblical.
It does not say this. It says evidence exists to leave them without excuse. But who can believe in God in any true sense apart from the new birth? Idols, which any can believe in do not count.
Satan believes and knows there is a God.
That being said Romans 1:21 clearly states they know there is a God but they reject God.
Satan believes but not by faith. An atheist cannot believe having biblical faith apart from first being born again. If they did believe, it would be more like those who choose to believe in "blind faith" not knowing the true God personally.
We are not talking about faith, we are talking about existence and belief of that existence. Why are you defending people when the Bible says they are indefensible?
Satan is an angelic being who has interacted with God personally from the beginning. So you cannot compare the Atheists to him. You can only compare them to yourself. And if you had anything to do with your salvation, then please, hold them accountable. But since you did not, pity them as you would a blind person walking over a cliff.
We are not discussing salvation Dave. That is a completely different topic.
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
I think Atheists are courageous and honest. Because they disavow religious superstition and reject being intimidated by threats they have no way of substantiating. Christians would all be atheists too had God not made himself known to them in the New Birth.“The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16) (NET)
So it is not blind faith at work in the Christian, nor superstition, but an awareness of God through his presence in our hearts that leads us to believe. Just as we believe the chair we sit in exists. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
I disagree. I don't think they are courageous or honest. They are foolish, don't confuse that with courage. They are not honest, the Bible tells us that nobody truly believes there is no God. They just reject God. Big difference.
I'm referring to their refusal to be intimidated by superstition. Whis is what you have if you do not experience Christ personally. But to lump all together as being dishonest is judging others. Granted, people often are honest for the wrong reasons.
Romans says everyone knows God exists so yes, they are dishonest. Even if it means they are being dishonest with themselves they are dishonest. That's not judging, that's biblical.
It does not say this. It says evidence exists to leave them without excuse. But who can believe in God in any true sense apart from the new birth? Idols, which any can believe in do not count.
Satan believes and knows there is a God.
That being said Romans 1:21 clearly states they know there is a God but they reject God.
Satan believes but not by faith. An atheist cannot believe having biblical faith apart from first being born again. If they did believe, it would be more like those who choose to believe in "blind faith" not knowing the true God personally.
We are not talking about faith, we are talking about existence and belief of that existence. Why are you defending people when the Bible says they are indefensible?
Satan is an angelic being who has interacted with God personally from the beginning. So you cannot compare the Atheists to him. You can only compare them to yourself. And if you had anything to do with your salvation, then please, hold them accountable. But since you did not, pity them as you would a blind person walking over a cliff.
We are not discussing salvation Dave. That is a completely different topic.
How can anyone believe in God if God does not grant it?
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
I think Atheists are courageous and honest. Because they disavow religious superstition and reject being intimidated by threats they have no way of substantiating. Christians would all be atheists too had God not made himself known to them in the New Birth.“The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16) (NET)
So it is not blind faith at work in the Christian, nor superstition, but an awareness of God through his presence in our hearts that leads us to believe. Just as we believe the chair we sit in exists. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
I disagree. I don't think they are courageous or honest. They are foolish, don't confuse that with courage. They are not honest, the Bible tells us that nobody truly believes there is no God. They just reject God. Big difference.
I'm referring to their refusal to be intimidated by superstition. Whis is what you have if you do not experience Christ personally. But to lump all together as being dishonest is judging others. Granted, people often are honest for the wrong reasons.
Romans says everyone knows God exists so yes, they are dishonest. Even if it means they are being dishonest with themselves they are dishonest. That's not judging, that's biblical.
It does not say this. It says evidence exists to leave them without excuse. But who can believe in God in any true sense apart from the new birth? Idols, which any can believe in do not count.
Satan believes and knows there is a God.
That being said Romans 1:21 clearly states they know there is a God but they reject God.
Satan believes but not by faith. An atheist cannot believe having biblical faith apart from first being born again. If they did believe, it would be more like those who choose to believe in "blind faith" not knowing the true God personally.
We are not talking about faith, we are talking about existence and belief of that existence. Why are you defending people when the Bible says they are indefensible?
Satan is an angelic being who has interacted with God personally from the beginning. So you cannot compare the Atheists to him. You can only compare them to yourself. And if you had anything to do with your salvation, then please, hold them accountable. But since you did not, pity them as you would a blind person walking over a cliff.
We are not discussing salvation Dave. That is a completely different topic.
How can anyone believe in God if God does not grant it?
You are confusing two different things. We are not talking about believing and following God for salvation, we are talking about belief in the existence of a god at all (which has been revealed to all men and is known by all) which does not save anyone. You can believe and know God exists and still reject him.
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
I think Atheists are courageous and honest. Because they disavow religious superstition and reject being intimidated by threats they have no way of substantiating. Christians would all be atheists too had God not made himself known to them in the New Birth.“The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16) (NET)
So it is not blind faith at work in the Christian, nor superstition, but an awareness of God through his presence in our hearts that leads us to believe. Just as we believe the chair we sit in exists. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
I disagree. I don't think they are courageous or honest. They are foolish, don't confuse that with courage. They are not honest, the Bible tells us that nobody truly believes there is no God. They just reject God. Big difference.
I'm referring to their refusal to be intimidated by superstition. Whis is what you have if you do not experience Christ personally. But to lump all together as being dishonest is judging others. Granted, people often are honest for the wrong reasons.
Romans says everyone knows God exists so yes, they are dishonest. Even if it means they are being dishonest with themselves they are dishonest. That's not judging, that's biblical.
It does not say this. It says evidence exists to leave them without excuse. But who can believe in God in any true sense apart from the new birth? Idols, which any can believe in do not count.
Satan believes and knows there is a God.
That being said Romans 1:21 clearly states they know there is a God but they reject God.
Satan believes but not by faith. An atheist cannot believe having biblical faith apart from first being born again. If they did believe, it would be more like those who choose to believe in "blind faith" not knowing the true God personally.
We are not talking about faith, we are talking about existence and belief of that existence. Why are you defending people when the Bible says they are indefensible?
Satan is an angelic being who has interacted with God personally from the beginning. So you cannot compare the Atheists to him. You can only compare them to yourself. And if you had anything to do with your salvation, then please, hold them accountable. But since you did not, pity them as you would a blind person walking over a cliff.
We are not discussing salvation Dave. That is a completely different topic.
How can anyone believe in God if God does not grant it?
You are confusing two different things. We are not talking about believing and following God for salvation, we are talking about belief in the existence of a god at all (which has been revealed to all men and is known by all) which does not save anyone. You can believe and know God exists and still reject him.
We are talking about the reprobate being without excuse. But what good would it do if they can only grasp false concepts of God if they tried? And why should we loathe them as though they could ever change their ways?
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
I think Atheists are courageous and honest. Because they disavow religious superstition and reject being intimidated by threats they have no way of substantiating. Christians would all be atheists too had God not made himself known to them in the New Birth.“The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16) (NET)
So it is not blind faith at work in the Christian, nor superstition, but an awareness of God through his presence in our hearts that leads us to believe. Just as we believe the chair we sit in exists. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
I disagree. I don't think they are courageous or honest. They are foolish, don't confuse that with courage. They are not honest, the Bible tells us that nobody truly believes there is no God. They just reject God. Big difference.
I'm referring to their refusal to be intimidated by superstition. Whis is what you have if you do not experience Christ personally. But to lump all together as being dishonest is judging others. Granted, people often are honest for the wrong reasons.
Romans says everyone knows God exists so yes, they are dishonest. Even if it means they are being dishonest with themselves they are dishonest. That's not judging, that's biblical.
It does not say this. It says evidence exists to leave them without excuse. But who can believe in God in any true sense apart from the new birth? Idols, which any can believe in do not count.
Satan believes and knows there is a God.
That being said Romans 1:21 clearly states they know there is a God but they reject God.
Satan believes but not by faith. An atheist cannot believe having biblical faith apart from first being born again. If they did believe, it would be more like those who choose to believe in "blind faith" not knowing the true God personally.
We are not talking about faith, we are talking about existence and belief of that existence. Why are you defending people when the Bible says they are indefensible?
Satan is an angelic being who has interacted with God personally from the beginning. So you cannot compare the Atheists to him. You can only compare them to yourself. And if you had anything to do with your salvation, then please, hold them accountable. But since you did not, pity them as you would a blind person walking over a cliff.
We are not discussing salvation Dave. That is a completely different topic.
How can anyone believe in God if God does not grant it?
You are confusing two different things. We are not talking about believing and following God for salvation, we are talking about belief in the existence of a god at all (which has been revealed to all men and is known by all) which does not save anyone. You can believe and know God exists and still reject him.
We are talking about the reprobate being without excuse. But what good would it do if they can only grasp false concepts of God if they tried? And why should we loathe them as though they could ever change their ways?
No, we are talking about there is no true atheist. And nobody has said anything about loathing anyone.
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
I think Atheists are courageous and honest. Because they disavow religious superstition and reject being intimidated by threats they have no way of substantiating. Christians would all be atheists too had God not made himself known to them in the New Birth.“The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16) (NET)
So it is not blind faith at work in the Christian, nor superstition, but an awareness of God through his presence in our hearts that leads us to believe. Just as we believe the chair we sit in exists. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
I disagree. I don't think they are courageous or honest. They are foolish, don't confuse that with courage. They are not honest, the Bible tells us that nobody truly believes there is no God. They just reject God. Big difference.
I'm referring to their refusal to be intimidated by superstition. Whis is what you have if you do not experience Christ personally. But to lump all together as being dishonest is judging others. Granted, people often are honest for the wrong reasons.
Romans says everyone knows God exists so yes, they are dishonest. Even if it means they are being dishonest with themselves they are dishonest. That's not judging, that's biblical.
It does not say this. It says evidence exists to leave them without excuse. But who can believe in God in any true sense apart from the new birth? Idols, which any can believe in do not count.
Satan believes and knows there is a God.
That being said Romans 1:21 clearly states they know there is a God but they reject God.
Satan believes but not by faith. An atheist cannot believe having biblical faith apart from first being born again. If they did believe, it would be more like those who choose to believe in "blind faith" not knowing the true God personally.
We are not talking about faith, we are talking about existence and belief of that existence. Why are you defending people when the Bible says they are indefensible?
Satan is an angelic being who has interacted with God personally from the beginning. So you cannot compare the Atheists to him. You can only compare them to yourself. And if you had anything to do with your salvation, then please, hold them accountable. But since you did not, pity them as you would a blind person walking over a cliff.
We are not discussing salvation Dave. That is a completely different topic.
How can anyone believe in God if God does not grant it?
You are confusing two different things. We are not talking about believing and following God for salvation, we are talking about belief in the existence of a god at all (which has been revealed to all men and is known by all) which does not save anyone. You can believe and know God exists and still reject him.
We are talking about the reprobate being without excuse. But what good would it do if they can only grasp false concepts of God if they tried? And why should we loathe them as though they could ever change their ways?
No, we are talking about there is no true atheist. And nobody has said anything about loathing anyone.
I disagree. Evidence exists for God through creation. But people always give credit for this to idols or philosophies to the point they die and kill defending it. Unless you know Christ through experience, you do the same.
An example might be when Stephen at the time of his martyrdom said: “But God turned away from them and gave them over to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the prophets: ‘It was not to me that you offered slain animals and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, was it, house of Israel? But you took along the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of the god Rephan, the images you made to worship, but I will deport you beyond Babylon.’” (Acts 7:42–43)
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
I think Atheists are courageous and honest. Because they disavow religious superstition and reject being intimidated by threats they have no way of substantiating. Christians would all be atheists too had God not made himself known to them in the New Birth.“The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children.” (Romans 8:16) (NET)
So it is not blind faith at work in the Christian, nor superstition, but an awareness of God through his presence in our hearts that leads us to believe. Just as we believe the chair we sit in exists. Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
I disagree. I don't think they are courageous or honest. They are foolish, don't confuse that with courage. They are not honest, the Bible tells us that nobody truly believes there is no God. They just reject God. Big difference.
I'm referring to their refusal to be intimidated by superstition. Whis is what you have if you do not experience Christ personally. But to lump all together as being dishonest is judging others. Granted, people often are honest for the wrong reasons.
Romans says everyone knows God exists so yes, they are dishonest. Even if it means they are being dishonest with themselves they are dishonest. That's not judging, that's biblical.
It does not say this. It says evidence exists to leave them without excuse. But who can believe in God in any true sense apart from the new birth? Idols, which any can believe in do not count.
Satan believes and knows there is a God.
That being said Romans 1:21 clearly states they know there is a God but they reject God.
Satan believes but not by faith. An atheist cannot believe having biblical faith apart from first being born again. If they did believe, it would be more like those who choose to believe in "blind faith" not knowing the true God personally.
We are not talking about faith, we are talking about existence and belief of that existence. Why are you defending people when the Bible says they are indefensible?
Satan is an angelic being who has interacted with God personally from the beginning. So you cannot compare the Atheists to him. You can only compare them to yourself. And if you had anything to do with your salvation, then please, hold them accountable. But since you did not, pity them as you would a blind person walking over a cliff.
We are not discussing salvation Dave. That is a completely different topic.
How can anyone believe in God if God does not grant it?
You are confusing two different things. We are not talking about believing and following God for salvation, we are talking about belief in the existence of a god at all (which has been revealed to all men and is known by all) which does not save anyone. You can believe and know God exists and still reject him.
We are talking about the reprobate being without excuse. But what good would it do if they can only grasp false concepts of God if they tried? And why should we loathe them as though they could ever change their ways?
No, we are talking about there is no true atheist. And nobody has said anything about loathing anyone.
I disagree. Evidence exists for God through creation. But people always give credit for this to idols or philosophies to the point they die and kill defending it. Unless you know Christ through experience, you do the same.
An example might be when Stephen at the time of his martyrdom said: “But God turned away from them and gave them over to worship the host of heaven, as it is written in the book of the prophets: ‘It was not to me that you offered slain animals and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, was it, house of Israel? But you took along the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of the god Rephan, the images you made to worship, but I will deport you beyond Babylon.’” (Acts 7:42–43)
Once again you are changing the argument. We are not saying they believe in God as He is, but that they by nature must and do believe there is a God. Nobody believes there is not a God, not really.
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Everybody believes there is a god of some sort. Everything has a cause (god). To some it's matter, to others it's an idol of their making. But these are all atheists because they do not think God (capital G) exists. Why do they not think God exists? Because he only reveals himself to whom he will.
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@Dave_L said:
Everybody believes there is a god of some sort. Everything has a cause (god). To some it's matter, to others it's an idol of their making. But these are all atheists because they do not think God (capital G) exists. Why do they not think God exists? Because he only reveals himself to whom he will.No I am saying they don't think he does not exist, they just reject him outright and say he doesn't because he doesn't fit their belief system.
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
Everybody believes there is a god of some sort. Everything has a cause (god). To some it's matter, to others it's an idol of their making. But these are all atheists because they do not think God (capital G) exists. Why do they not think God exists? Because he only reveals himself to whom he will.No I am saying they don't think he does not exist, they just reject him outright and say he doesn't because he doesn't fit their belief system.
I believe atheism is a form of idol worship. In that it recognizes cause (creator) and effect (created) relationships. This leaves them without excuse. But it does not mean they can discern God in truth. This is a gift God gives to some through Christ and withholds from others.
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
Everybody believes there is a god of some sort. Everything has a cause (god). To some it's matter, to others it's an idol of their making. But these are all atheists because they do not think God (capital G) exists. Why do they not think God exists? Because he only reveals himself to whom he will.No I am saying they don't think he does not exist, they just reject him outright and say he doesn't because he doesn't fit their belief system.
I believe atheism is a form of idol worship. In that it recognizes cause (creator) and effect (created) relationships. This leaves them without excuse. But it does not mean they can discern God in truth. This is a gift God gives to some through Christ and withholds from others.
I agree, but that's not what we are talking about.
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
Everybody believes there is a god of some sort. Everything has a cause (god). To some it's matter, to others it's an idol of their making. But these are all atheists because they do not think God (capital G) exists. Why do they not think God exists? Because he only reveals himself to whom he will.No I am saying they don't think he does not exist, they just reject him outright and say he doesn't because he doesn't fit their belief system.
I believe atheism is a form of idol worship. In that it recognizes cause (creator) and effect (created) relationships. This leaves them without excuse. But it does not mean they can discern God in truth. This is a gift God gives to some through Christ and withholds from others.
I agree, but that's not what we are talking about.
I think it is what we are talking about. Creation takes away everyone's excuse for not seeking the true God whom they naturally find repugnant when preached. You can call it foolishness, but without the gift of salvation, idol worship is their only remaining option.
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
Everybody believes there is a god of some sort. Everything has a cause (god). To some it's matter, to others it's an idol of their making. But these are all atheists because they do not think God (capital G) exists. Why do they not think God exists? Because he only reveals himself to whom he will.No I am saying they don't think he does not exist, they just reject him outright and say he doesn't because he doesn't fit their belief system.
I believe atheism is a form of idol worship. In that it recognizes cause (creator) and effect (created) relationships. This leaves them without excuse. But it does not mean they can discern God in truth. This is a gift God gives to some through Christ and withholds from others.
I agree, but that's not what we are talking about.
I think it is what we are talking about. Creation takes away everyone's excuse for not seeking the true God whom they naturally find repugnant when preached. You can call it foolishness, but without the gift of salvation, idol worship is their only remaining option.
Ok Dave, I'm not going to argue with you, you tend to go off on these tangents and rarely stay on the topic or grasp the topic that we are on, I don't know which.
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
Everybody believes there is a god of some sort. Everything has a cause (god). To some it's matter, to others it's an idol of their making. But these are all atheists because they do not think God (capital G) exists. Why do they not think God exists? Because he only reveals himself to whom he will.No I am saying they don't think he does not exist, they just reject him outright and say he doesn't because he doesn't fit their belief system.
I believe atheism is a form of idol worship. In that it recognizes cause (creator) and effect (created) relationships. This leaves them without excuse. But it does not mean they can discern God in truth. This is a gift God gives to some through Christ and withholds from others.
I agree, but that's not what we are talking about.
I think it is what we are talking about. Creation takes away everyone's excuse for not seeking the true God whom they naturally find repugnant when preached. You can call it foolishness, but without the gift of salvation, idol worship is their only remaining option.
Ok Dave, I'm not going to argue with you, you tend to go off on these tangents and rarely stay on the topic or grasp the topic that we are on, I don't know which.
It's OK to throw in the sponge. Thanks for trying to prove your point.
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
Everybody believes there is a god of some sort. Everything has a cause (god). To some it's matter, to others it's an idol of their making. But these are all atheists because they do not think God (capital G) exists. Why do they not think God exists? Because he only reveals himself to whom he will.No I am saying they don't think he does not exist, they just reject him outright and say he doesn't because he doesn't fit their belief system.
I believe atheism is a form of idol worship. In that it recognizes cause (creator) and effect (created) relationships. This leaves them without excuse. But it does not mean they can discern God in truth. This is a gift God gives to some through Christ and withholds from others.
I agree, but that's not what we are talking about.
I think it is what we are talking about. Creation takes away everyone's excuse for not seeking the true God whom they naturally find repugnant when preached. You can call it foolishness, but without the gift of salvation, idol worship is their only remaining option.
Ok Dave, I'm not going to argue with you, you tend to go off on these tangents and rarely stay on the topic or grasp the topic that we are on, I don't know which.
It's OK to throw in the sponge. Thanks for time well spent.
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@Dave_L said:
I think Atheists are courageous...It is pretty easy to be courageous when you live in a country that allows freedom of speech and freedom of religion. However, when you live in a sectarian and or strickly theocratic state it may not be as easy.
QUESTIONS FOR THOUGHT AND/OR DISCUSSION:
Where do the courageous outspoken Atheists live? In places like Iraq, Iran, Saudia Arabia? If not why?What social class do outspoken Atheists usually hold? Are there working class individuals who have could lose everything for standing out or are they under-middle and upper-class, individuals, who have financially and professional security.
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I find the following to be interesting:
(1) "Atheist gatherings are mostly white, male Diversity remains quite an elusive dynamic among nonbelievers in the United States."
https://www.mysanantonio.com/news/religion/article/Atheist-gatherings-are-mostly-white-male-944612.php(2)"Some non-believers are working to combat white male dominance within the movement and make room for everyone to explore secular community."
https://hazlitt.net/longreads/who-gets-be-atheist(3)Are most atheists in America middle-class white men? (Various answers)
https://www.quora.com/Are-most-atheists-in-America-middle-class-white-men -
I ponder the argument that women may be more spiritually sensitive—whatever that means. Why are 80% of Christians in Asia and Africa women?
No doubt there are various answers. -
@Mitchell said:
@Dave_L said:
I think Atheists are courageous...It is pretty easy to be courageous when you live in a country that allows freedom of speech and freedom of religion. However, when you live in a sectarian and or strickly theocratic state it may not be as easy.
QUESTIONS FOR THOUGHT AND/OR DISCUSSION:
Where do the courageous outspoken Atheists live? In places like Iraq, Iran, Saudia Arabia? If not why?What social class do outspoken Atheists usually hold? Are there working class individuals who have could lose everything for standing out or are they under-middle and upper-class, individuals, who have financially and professional security.
I was commenting on the courage to throw off religious superstition, but you have made them even more courageous bringing to light the persecution they experience in religiously superstitious regimes.
The reason for their courage to throw off superstition is that unless God imparts the new birth, people only worship idols. They even have false concepts of Jesus they worship and preach every sunday in Church.
