Attributes of God

C Mc

What are the attributes of God? When identified, how are they defined? In view of identification and definition would these two ensure the existence of God? CM

Dave_L

@C_M_ said:
What are the attributes of God? When identified, how are they defined? In view of identification and definition would these two ensure the existence of God? CM

This is a difficult question. Because we can make almost anything we like out of God from nature and the scriptures. The bible is full of examples where people did that in their worship of idols. Even making a calf to represent the God who brought them out from Egypt.

So I think it is more an experience in the heart that confirms God's existence. Paul says His Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are His children. And from that point we learn to identify and define God from the scriptures.

GaoLu

Dave spoke well.

I think that God can be known because His attributes are knowable in Scripture, but also outside Scripture.

• "[God] has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man’s heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end." --Ecc 3:11.
• There is much far beyond us, yet God is revealed in nature. --Ps 19:1-6 / Ps 8:3-4
• Historical events reveal God Rom 1:18-21
• Logic leads us to God
• By deduction we can also know some of his infinity, unicity, simplicity and personality.
• We can speculate about other primary attributes of God but don't need to as we do have Scriptures which reveal God's self-existence, immutability, eternality, omnipotence, omniscience, etc.

I am bypassing listing and defining specific atttributes at this point of the conversation, but would say that the identification and definition of God's attributes are not related to ensuring the existence of God. Rather, they are an expression or manifestation of the existence of God. You can't have one without the other. God manifests an attribute set. The specific set exists and must exist because God is.

C Mc

@GaoLu said:
Dave spoke well.

I think that God can be known because His attributes are knowable in Scripture, but also outside Scripture.

GaoLu,
Great and sober insights. You "spoke well." CM

C Mc

Does Jesus possess any of the attributes of God? If so, what are they? If not, why not? CM

[Deleted User]

@C_M_ said:
Does Jesus possess any of the attributes of God?
If so, what are they?

Jesus possessed in and of himself only those attributes of God any other human also has as humans were made in the image of God.

If not, why not?

Other things that are at times said to be "attributes of God" (such as "power to work miracles", "authority to forgive sins", "knowledge beyond what the five senses provide", etc) humans do not have in and of themselves and neither did Jesus have such in and of himself. God gave Jesus such authority and power, which enables Jesus to do miracles, act as God's representative, whom God had sent.

This is clearly stated in Acts 10:38, where we read about the so-called "baptism" of Jesus, at which time God anointed Jesus with holy spirit and power and after which event Jesus went about going good and healing people, etc. Jesus himself also very plainly indicated whether or not he himself had attributes of God, as recorded in John 5:19 when he stated that he could do nothing of himself but did what God, his Father, showed and gave him to do.

Bill_Coley

@Wolfgang said:

This is clearly stated in Acts 10:38, where we read about the so-called "baptism" of Jesus, at which time God anointed Jesus with holy spirit and power and after which event Jesus went about going good and healing people, etc. Jesus himself also very plainly indicated whether or not he himself had attributes of God, as recorded in John 5:19 when he stated that he could do nothing of himself but did what God, his Father, showed and gave him to do.

Thanks for drawing attention to Acts 10.38, Wolfgang, which is another verse that reports Peter's advocacy of an inarguable distinction between Jesus and God. Peter claims Jesus did good things and healed demon-possessed people because "God was with him." There is no indication in the verse or its surrounding context that Peter believed Jesus did good things because he was with himself.

The common sense meaning of Peter's statement and the presentation in which he made it - the meaning that is consistent with Peter's other presentations about Jesus found in Acts - is that he believed Jesus was NOT God.

Trinity advocates in these forums may tell me I'm wrong about Peter's message in Acts 10 and his other presentation in Acts. Please don't just tell me I'm wrong about Peter in Acts, SHOW me. Quote the verses where Peter gives a message about Jesus and God that demonstrates Acts 10.38 and all the other passages I've cited in the "Is Jesus Deity" thread mean something other than what I've claimed they mean.

C Mc

What specifically are some of the revealed attributes of God, besides love and power? God reveals because he wants us to know. It helps in the development of faith and worship. CM

GaoLu

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. -Ben Franklin

[Deleted User]

@GaoLu said:
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. -Ben Franklin

Are you referring to yourself perhaps?
Can't be talking about me because I have not even been convinced by any of the Trinitarian (mostly lacking) "arguments" for a "Holy Trinity Godhead" ... not against my will nor otherwise

GaoLu

> @Wolfgang said:
> @GaoLu said:
> A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still. -Ben Franklin
>
> Are you referring to yourself perhaps?
> Can't be talking about me because I have not even been convinced by any of the Trinitarian (mostly lacking) "arguments" for a "Holy Trinity Godhead" ... not against my will nor otherwise

You and Bill both. Much effort has been made to convince you to no more avail than is indicated in the image above.

I suppose we all take our turn being the donkey. Some issues may matter more than others.

[Deleted User]

@GaoLu said:
You and Bill both. Much effort has been made to convince you to no more avail than is indicated in the image above.

I would say that not much real effort has been made to convince me ... you and others have not even answered in details questions you were asked and instead evaded answering and instead just continued your sermon preaching.

The real interesting point is that I (and Bill as well) have set forth scripture passage after passage with details regarding textual evidence, context evidence, logical and reasonable thinking ... thus you and others have had a much better opportunity to be convinced of the illogical and unreasonable interpretations of your Trinity dogma theology than you have afforded us in your attempt to convince.

Bill_Coley

@GaoLu said:
You and Bill both. Much effort has been made to convince you to no more avail than is indicated in the image above.

@Wolfgang said:
I would say that not much real effort has been made to convince me ... you and others have not even answered in details questions you were asked and instead evaded answering and instead just continued your sermon preaching.

The real interesting point is that I (and Bill as well) have set forth scripture passage after passage with details regarding textual evidence, context evidence, logical and reasonable thinking ... thus you and others have had a much better opportunity to be convinced of the illogical and unreasonable interpretations of your Trinity dogma theology than you have afforded us in your attempt to convince.

I second your response, Wolfgang. Well said.

The most affirming thing I can say about the "much effort" that has been made by Trinity advocates to "convince" us has to do with its remarkable consistency. Time and time again those determined to convince us have complied with three basic principles
1. Cite Scriptures you contend support your view
2. Refuse to engage either the Scriptures those who disagree with you contend support their views, or their responses to the Scriptures you cited in support of your views
3. Tell those who disagree with you they've not addressed the Scriptures that support your view

Time and time again we've...

• ...directly and without evasion engaged the Scriptures cited by Trinity advocates
• ...provided verses/passages - by now, numbering in the dozens - to support our views
• ...asked cogent, relevant questions on the issues raised by our respective views and texts

And time and time again, we have received no substantive responses.

If the fourth, fifth, ... and fifteenth times you ask somebody the same question, they STILL don't have an answer, chances are pretty good, they don't have an answer.

[Deleted User]

@Bill_Coley said:
If the fourth, fifth, ... and fifteenth times you ask somebody the same question, they STILL don't have an answer, chances are pretty good, they don't have an answer.

I would say that not only do they not have an answer, but - because of the manner of questions they were asked - their lack of answer rather plainly demonstrates two things: (a) they realize and thus have been convinced of the error in their position, and (b) they refuse to admit they've fallen prey to deception and rather continue in their error, perhaps for fear of being expelled or kicked out by their denomination with possible severe consequences to their personal life such as loss of job, loss of reputation, loss of friends, etc.

GaoLu

Answers to your doubts are complete and Biblical...so now you are adding dishonesty to denial. At least you could admit that very good answers have been prolifically provided by many people. I wish that were not true.

C Mc

@Wolfgang said:
This is clearly stated in Acts 10:38, where we read about the so-called "baptism" of Jesus, at which time God anointed Jesus with holy spirit and power and after which event Jesus went about going good and healing people, etc. Jesus himself also very plainly indicated whether or not he himself had attributes of God, as recorded in John 5:19 when he stated that he could do nothing of himself but did what God, his Father, showed and gave him to do.

What? Don't you believe Jesus was baptized? Do you accept the biblical account of it? Do you want to correct the statement "...we read about the so-called "baptism" of Jesus"? I hope this was a typo. If not, why do believe the way you do?

----------- ------------ ----------- ---------- -----------

Can we agree on the following:

1. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present?
2. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation?
3. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation?
4. There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons?

Please see the following texts: Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:8. What says ye? CM

[Deleted User]

@C_M_ said:

@Wolfgang said:
This is clearly stated in Acts 10:38, where we read about the so-called "baptism" of Jesus, at which time God anointed Jesus with holy spirit and power and after which event Jesus went about going good and healing people, etc. Jesus himself also very plainly indicated whether or not he himself had attributes of God, as recorded in John 5:19 when he stated that he could do nothing of himself but did what God, his Father, showed and gave him to do.

What?

exactly what I stated regarding what Acts 10:38 says regarding the event and exactly what Jesus said about himself in John 5:19

Don't you believe Jesus was baptized?

John's baptism was for sinners and a baptism of repentance ... I do NOT believe that Jesus was a sinner and in need of a baptism for repentance, do you?

Do you accept the biblical account of it?

Yes, I do ... and I even mentioned the biblical account which tells us what the event was about (Acts 10:38)

Do you want to correct the statement "...we read about the so-called "baptism" of Jesus"?

Why should I correct that statement when it is correct? Many people refer to what happened when Jesus came to John where John was baptizing sinners who repented of their ways and believed his preaching of the Messiah as "baptism of Jesus" and equate it with it ... I do not.
I realize that what happened at the event was the "ceremonial washing" required by the law as part of the installation and at the anointing of the high priest ... it fulfilled a requirement of the law for Jesus to be anointed as the high priest. That it was an anointing ceremony is clear from Acts 10:38, and that it had nothing to do with "confessing sin" is clear from records in Heb which state that Jesus was without sin.

I hope this was a typo. If not, why do believe the way you do?

See above ... no typo, just plain straight forward understanding of Scripture in light of context and overall scope of Scripture.

----------- ------------ ----------- ---------- -----------

Can we agree on the following:

1. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present?

Yes

2. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation?

Yes

3. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation?

Yes

4. There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons?

No
There is one true God ... He is the Father (He also is the Creator, the Almighty, the Holy One of Israel, the Ancient of Days, the Savior, He is Spirit, He is Holy, He is righteous, etc)
God is NOT anyone's Son
The Holy Spirit is NOT a separate "God-Person"

Please see the following texts: Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:8. What says ye?

None of these texts speaks of a "God-unity of three Persons"

Bill_Coley

@GaoLu said:
Answers to your doubts are complete and Biblical...so now you are adding dishonesty to denial. At least you could admit that very good answers have been prolifically provided by many people. I wish that were not true.

I would gladly "admit that very good answers have been prolifically provided by many people" had I actually encountered such answers in this thread.

But you can resolve that difficulty for me, Gao Lu! Please provide me with a substantive summary of the "very good answer" "many people" have provided when it comes to Peter's point of view about Jesus and God, specifically as to the four Acts passages I cited that report consecutive presentations on the matter from Peter.

If you want one specific verse to highlight in your summary, try Acts 10.38, which says God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and with power, and that Jesus was able to was able to do good and execute healings NOT because he was God, but because "God was with him." What is the "very good answer" "many people" have provided as to whether anywhere in that verse or any of the Acts presentations I cited Peter expresses a belief that Jesus is God. (If so, please provide the verses)

Now you might be tempted to call me a bully. That's one way you have evaded legitimate requests such as this in the past.

You might want to tell me you're not going to do the work for me, that the "very good answer" to my question is readily available in the thread if I look for it. That's another way you have evaded requests like this in the past.

Or you may want to turn to some other form of dismissive commentary-cum-personality critique-cum-obvious distraction to avoid fulfilling my request.

BUT PLEASE DON'T!! I genuinely have not seen a "very good answer" to the questions I've raised about Peter's view of Jesus and God. I respect the few posters who have genuinely engaged the issues!! And I'm sure you believe answers abound. But I haven't seen one. Simply point me to it via a substantive summary of what I've obviously missed.

[Deleted User]

@GaoLu said:
Answers to your doubts are complete and Biblical...

Indeed, I would think that there are complete and also Biblical answers to doubts I may have regarding whatever subject or topic.

However, the problem here is that you and others have not provided ANSWERS but rather mostly unrelated "sermon preaching" often in total disregard of the questions you were asked. Sort of like when someone asks you "Would you please tell me how much a basket of strawberries cost?" and you answer "Strawberries grow on fields and in gardens!"

so now you are adding dishonesty to denial.

When looking at the different threads and posts that have been posted on these topics, anyone will notice who is in denial and who is dishonest .. just compare your above claim about complete and Biblical answers.

At least you could admit that very good answers have been prolifically provided by many people.

I certainly would admit such and have done so in some cases ... but how could I do so to answers that we neither good nor have been prolifically provided?

Bill has provided some posts with very good answers ... and what makes them good in my view are the many details and simple plain logic he employs and how he stays on topic. In your and many others' answers such has been missing, and only some general "preaching of the party line" was provided or else some more and different verses of Scripture thrown into the discussion (which, most of the time, both Bill and I then even took the time to reply to those in detail as well, giving textual, contextual evidence for what and why we understand those verses to say.

I wish that were not true.

Well, Gao_Lu, what you assume here is NOT true.

GaoLu

You have spoken your beliefs and been clear. That much seems honest.

[Deleted User]

@GaoLu said:
You have spoken your beliefs and been clear. That much seems honest.

wow ... and why would my detailed explanation of my understanding of scripture passages be dishonest ?? Just because I come to a result that is different from the dogma to which you adhere?

GaoLu

Only one of us is right on a very important matter.

[Deleted User]

@GaoLu said:
Only one of us is right on a very important matter.

I agree ... and I think that careful reading of Scripture, careful consideration of context and overall scope of Scripture are essential to be right. Furthermore, the use of logic and reason are vital, as those are God given abilities so that man can distinguish between truth and error.

C Mc

Does any other "Being" possess the attributes of God? CM

[Deleted User]

@C_M_ said:
Does any other "Being" possess the attributes of God? CM

Man was created in the image and likeness of God (cp. Gen 1:26-27) ... would that mean that human beings possess some attributes of God?

C Mc

It seems to me, that your answer to my question, with a question, is my question. CM

[Deleted User]

@C_M_ said:
It seems to me, that your answer to my question, with a question, is my question. CM

Well then, does that question in any way help to answer the real question of whether or not having attributes of God makes one to actually be God (which is what Trinity proponents basically claim when they say that Jesus possessed attributes of God and therefore was God) ??
IF humans have attributes of God, it obviously does not make them God ... thus the idea of possessing attributes of God makes one to be God is a false claim.

C Mc

Hold up, Mr. Wolfgang, Slow down!

Consider that there is a difference between reflecting and having possession of a thing.
The man may reflect what God is, at the same time not become God. He reflects but doesn't possess. e.g. The moon may reflect the light of the sun, but it's not the sun. Jesus possessed, but only reflect what the Father gave him as our Redeemer and the Second Adam. CM

[Deleted User]

@C_M_ said:
Hold up, Mr. Wolfgang, Slow down!

gladly ... let's ("let us") read what you say and comment on it ...

Consider that there is a difference between reflecting and having possession of a thing. The man may reflect what God is, at the same time not become God. He reflects but doesn't possess. e.g.

I agree .... an image or likeness of someone or something IS NOT that someone or something

The moon may reflect the light of the sun, but it's not the sun.

Yes, by reflecting someone or something one IS NOT that someone or something.

Jesus possessed, but only reflect what the Father gave him as our Redeemer and the Second Adam. CM

?? Not quite sure what you are trying to say with this statement ...first you say "possessed", then you say "but only reflect" ....?

In light of your above stated observations to which I agree, I would add the following scriptures as evidence:

Col 1:14-15 (AV)
14 In whom [Jesus] we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Clearly, if Jesus is the image of the invisible God then Jesus is NOT himself actually God.

Hebr 1:3 (AV)
3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Again, we are clearly informed that Jesus is NOT God, because - as you already mentioned above - an image is NOT the same as that of which it is an image; also, as the moon reflecting the brightness of the sun does not make the moon to be the sun, so neither is Jesus actually God because as he is the reflection / brightness of God's glory.

As for possessing attributes of God, even that does NOT make someone God .... consider that we as believers have been sanctified and made HOLY (holiness is an attribute of God), but does that make us God??

C Mc

Wolfgang,
Until more time: My response was to address "man" -- single nature, made in the image of God; not Jesus, dual (God/man) nature. Jesus incarnates (man) to reflect the Father to condemn sin in the flesh. He humbled himself. The Creator becoming a part of His creation. This is the great mystery humility to redeem humanity. Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God (Phil 2:6). Read the entire chapter. Let's explore this more, to know more about Jesus and His relationship with the Father to save mankind.

Phil. 2: 5-10. (start here. Better yet, read the entire chapter):

5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth.

Don't rush me and don't be dismissive. You and I may still be able to learn something from the Holy Scriptures. You weren't always where you are today. You changed once, you can change again. Lighten up, enjoy the Word. I am working on a larger piece in this subject area for consideration. I don't know it all, neither do you. I am a "proclaimer" of the Word, not a debater of the Word. Be blessed. CM

[Deleted User]

@C_M_ said:
Wolfgang,
Until more time: My response was to address "man" -- single nature, made in the image of God; not Jesus, dual (God/man) nature.

I think there is no further exchange possible, because you do not regard Jesus to be a human being, but something else. IF Jesus was something other than a human being, he could not have been the Messiah nor could he have been "the last [second} Adam".

All scriptures which speak of the man Jesus become invalid and would be false IF your idea of Jesus were true. It is that simple, C_M.

Jesus incarnates (man) to reflect the Father to condemn sin in the flesh.

There is no "incarnation" of Jesus or "incarnation" of God in Scripture ... such is perhaps found in certain heath mythologies, but not in the Bible. Or can you actually point out a scripture which says so (and, please, don't come with John 1:14 because that verse does NOT say Jesus incarnated or God incarnated)?

He humbled himself.

Yes, the man Jesus did make himself servant and that even to the point of giving his life a ransom for many ... and he did not elevate himself but rather was elevated to the position of "right hand of God"

The Creator becoming a part of His creation.

This is straight forward illogical unreasonable nonsense.

This is the great mystery humility to redeem humanity.

Declaring it "the great mystery" is the follow up nonsense big fat false claim so that people would not start thinking about it and actually notice how stupid, unreasonable, illogical the idea and the statement "Creator becomes part of His creation" is.

Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God (Phil 2:6).

Exactly .... since Jesus did NOT even think about grasping at the status of equality with God, why do you and Trinity followers "overtake him" and actually make him God?
Read the entire chapter. Let's explore this more, to know more about Jesus and His relationship with the Father to save mankind.
Thank you for the advice ... have you actually carefully read it, or did you just go by what mostly Trinity colored theologians and authors have interpreted?

Phil. 2: 5-10. (start here. Better yet, read the entire chapter):

5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

So then, we as believers should think as Jesus did ... how could we, if Jesus were "more than" human? Do you consider yourself also to be a God-man? Or do you interpret the passage following in Phi 2:5ff as not applying to you because you are just a man??

6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Did you notice that the verses do NOT say: "Who being God, to be equal with God was something he was and did not need to rob, changed himself as a sign of humility from being God into being a human servant " ???
Did you read what the verses actually say, and do so in light of the statement in v. 5 with its command that believers should think as Jesus did??

8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

As I said above already, it was NOT the God Jesus who humbled himself into being a man, but it was the man Jesus who humbled himself to be servant.

9. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth.

Did you notice here that the verses do not say that he was made God when he was exalted ??

Don't rush me and don't be dismissive.

Take all the time you want ...