Do You Have to Believe in the Trinity to be Saved?
Disclaimer (PLEASE READ):
The posting of this video does not automatically equate to an endorsement of all the ideas expressed by the presenter John Schoenheit, nor of his fellowship and or affiliations. This video is posted for the purpose of eliciting reactions to the line of thought/argument reflected in the video.
Romans 10:9-10 - "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."
Comments
-
Mitchell, after reading the question in the topic line -- "Do You Have to Believe in the Trinity to be Saved?" -- and noticing the quote from Rom 10:9-10, my simple answer to the question is: NO!
-
Believing in your idea of Christ does not mean you believe in Christ. The Pharisees all believed in Christ, just not the true Christ.
-
Buddhists and Muslims believe in Christ. Probably voodoo priests and witchdoctors do too. And I bet a dollar the devil does.
-
Romans 10:9-10 doesn't use the term "Christ" and neither did Wolfgang in his reply to the OP. Romans 10:9-10 speaks of Jesus being Lord(or LORD), not of his being Messiah/Christ and it speaks of the importance of believing that God raised Jesus from the dead.
Do, Buddhists, Muslims, and so-called Pharisees believe that Jesus is Lord(LORD) and that God raised him from the dead?
-
Now, back to the question:
Does one have to Believe in the Trinity to be Saved? **
Or, **at the moment one is constituted as saved how much does he/she have to understand -
@Dave_L said:
Believing in your idea of Christ does not mean you believe in Christ. The Pharisees all believed in Christ, just not the true Christ.The Pharisees did NOT believe in Christ ... they rejected Jesus as the Christ.
Seems like you have a strange idea of to what "believe in (on) Christ" refers. To help you along, one could translate "put their trust (as regards redemption and salvation) in Christ"
-
@GaoLu said:
Buddhists and Muslims believe in Christ. Probably voodoo priests and witchdoctors do too. And I bet a dollar the devil does.You too have a weird idea or concept of to what "believe/trust in Christ" is about ...
While Buddhists, Muslims, etc may believe that Jesus lived about 2000 years ago, or believe that he is a prophet, or believe that he was a man of God, etc etc ... to believe such things about Jesus Christ does NOT equal what the Scriptures speak of as "to believe in (on) Christ".
Now, to come back to Rom 10:9-10, these verses do not particularly speak about "believe in(on) Christ" but speak about "believe in your heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead. Do you think that Buddhists or Moslems believe that God raised Jesus from the dead?
A short note about your mention of "the devil" also "believing in Christ" .... quite obviously, the devil does NOT believe(trust) in Christ, but something very interesting is mentioned in Scripture => the devils know and believe that only ONE (and not three) is God, and they are absolutely correct about that truth, and it makes them tremble.
-
@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
Believing in your idea of Christ does not mean you believe in Christ. The Pharisees all believed in Christ, just not the true Christ.The Pharisees did NOT believe in Christ ... they rejected Jesus as the Christ.
Seems like you have a strange idea of to what "believe in (on) Christ" refers. To help you along, one could translate "put their trust (as regards redemption and salvation) in Christ"
The Pharisees "Christ" did not match the true Christ so they rejected him. They worshipped satan by default thinking they worshipped God.
-
Mitchell,
Would you consider the post below a substantive contribution to the OP? The text, Rom. 10:9-10, reflects the first Christian creed or confession of faith was short but profound, “_That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord’ [Kurios], and believe with your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved_” (Rom 10:9).“Personal, transformative knowledge of Christ is based on the historical truth of Scripture, constituting propositional knowledge. Otherwise, a belief in “Jesus” without knowledge of the true referent (perfect God and perfect man) and the historical content (His teaching, His redemptive work on the cross, His resurrection and ascension, etc.) could be cultic and dangerous.” This obviously doesn’t mean that one must know everything about Jesus to be saved.
Rom. 10:9-13, 17 further tells us what’s the nature of faith that connects us with the living God and Christ. The Scripture is never an end in itself, but the means to know Christ, of whom the Scriptures testify. Faith and assurance of salvation cannot exist for one moment without their root in the living God and Savior of the Scripture.
One must be born-again, confessing Jesus as Savior and Lord (John 3:3, Rom. 10:9). Having a correct doctrine of beliefs is important to how we relate to God. This is one of the needs for theology.
Some need to be reminded that texts in the OT which speak of Jehovah are applied to Jesus in the NT. Compare:
- Isa. 40:3 with Matt. 3:3
- Jer. 23:6 with 1 Cor. 1:30
- Joel 2:32 with Rom. 10:9-13
- Ps. 130:7, 8 with Matt. 1:21, etc.
Note – “It is in full harmony with these definitions of His lordship cited from the Lord's own lips that the evangelist himself (Matt. 3: 3) applies to Him the term ' Lord ' in that prophecy of Isaiah in which there is promised ' a voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make ye ready the way of the Lord,' Jehovah; thus identifying His coming with the promised advent of Jehovah, and His person with Jehovah who was to come."
God's offer of salvation is universal. Christ had revealed to Paul the simple truth that the best of human works cannot earn eternal life because all have broken God's law in the past. Christ died for our sins and offers us salvation as a free gift if only we will believe. Belief is more than mental assent, or acceptance of a set of facts. It is reaching out in gratitude and taking into the heart the saving presence of the Saviour Himself. This is why does Paul stress so strongly the importance of faith (Rom. 1:16, 17) Rom. 10:9 (compare Eph. 2:8-10).
Rom. 10:9-11 (compare Titus 3:5-7; Eph. 2:8- 10), spells out how are we saved. Paul restates the point. Faith is the means of salvation because it is a response to God's free grace. The Revised Standard Version translates Romans 10:10: "For man believes with his heart and so is justified." The Greek translates literally: "For he believes in his heart unto righteousness." Faith in Christ results in righteousness of heart. As Paul has already said, faith in Christ results in the law's being written on the heart. Righteousness of heart is perfect conformity to the will of God as expressed in His law. Salvation (justification) is the gift of the righteousness of Christ to the heart of the believer.
It is not enough to believe ABOUT Christ; we must believe IN Him. CM
SOURCE:
-- St Francis Magazine Vol 10, No 3 | August 2014
-- The Lord of Glory," B. B. Warfield, pp. 72, 73. -
@C_M_ said:
It is not enough to believe ABOUT Christ; we must believe IN Him. CMExactly, and that is precisely the point of my second post on this thread!
-
@Mitchell said:
Disclaimer (PLEASE READ):
The posting of this video does not automatically equate to an endorsement of all the ideas expressed by the presenter John Schoenheit, nor of his fellowship and or affiliations. This video is posted for the purpose of eliciting reactions to the line of thought/argument reflected in the video.Romans 10:9-10 - "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."
Thanks for the link to video, Brian.
I am blessed by the name of the presenter's website - biblicalunitarian.com - and then, when I made a brief visit there, by a page it devotes to questions the site believes needs to be answered as to whether Jesus was God. On the page you'll find some of the same arguments Wolfgang and I have made for years on the CD forums.
Overall, the video presentation deftly presents its case that a person does NOT have to believe in the doctrine of the Trinity in order to be saved. It's probably clear from my many posts on the subject that I agree completely with the presenter.
-
Thanks for taking the time to view the video Bill Coley!
I hope that others will view the video and provide their reactions to it as well. -
I confess I did not view the video yet and failed to address the obvious importance of Believing about and believing in Jesus, as well as acknowledging Jesus as Lord. My apologies for a too-hasty response. I had better bow out for a bit as my life is just too busy now to participate effectively.
-
@GaoLu said:
I confess I did not view the video yet and failed to address the obvious importance of Believing about and believing in Jesus, as well as acknowledging Jesus as Lord. My apologies for a too-hasty response. I had better bow out for a bit as my life is just too busy now to participate effectively.All the posts will be here when you can focus, GaoLu. CM
-
@Bill_Coley said:
I am blessed by the name of the presenter's website - biblicalunitarian.com - and then, when I made a brief visit there, by a page it devotes to questions the site believes needs to be answered as to whether Jesus was God. On the page you'll find some of the same arguments Wolfgang and I have made for years on the CD forums.Our arguments, as those on that linked page, are made on the basis that logic and reason must be applied in order to understand the Scriptures correctly and in order to determine Biblical truth from theological error.
The regular basis of Trinity theology adherents and their approach to understand Scripture in light of their theology is to basically do away with logic and reason ... and they do so in a rather pragmatic way by saying "you can't understand God by human logic or reason". What they ignore is the fact that their own claim that they "know God is a Holy Trinity" is only the product of human illogical and unreasonable thinking. -
I respect you very highly and value your words, especially your admonition with gratitude. Your counsel is welcome any time.
Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But deceitful are the kisses of an enemy. Pr 27:6
-
@Mitchell said:
Do you have to believe in the Trinity to be saved?The title in the OP besides the clip should be considered independently. To answer this question, one must provide answers to several more questions:
- Is the Trinity seen active throughout the Bible?
- Are all Scriptures given by inspiration?
- Is the Bible the ultimate written authority when it comes to understanding God?
- Is heavenly revelation requires Divine illuminations?
- Beyond every man "given a measure of faith", is it not true that "faith comes by faith hearing the Word of God"?
- What's the relationship of the Father with Son and Son with Father, and the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son?
- Is the Trinity a revelation of God?
- Is the Trinity a "biblical Janus" and distant beings?
- In Matt. 3: 16-17, at the baptism of Jesus, was this the manifestation of the Trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit or a trinitarian display of a heavenly ventriloquist?
- Matt. 3:16 -- "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him."
- Matt. 3: 17 -- "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".
- Is it possible that the Trinity three separate being yet, one God?
Finally, because the reality of question number ten is beyond human comprehension, does this makes it impossible? What are your answers and the conclusion? CM
-
@C_M_ said:
The title in the OP besides the clip should be considered independently. To answer this question, one must provide answers to several more questions:- Is the Trinity seen active throughout the Bible?
No. In fact, I contend that the Trinity is not "seen active" in the Bible at all.
- Are all Scriptures given by inspiration?
Yes, but I'm not sure how informative my response to your question can be since "given by inspiration" is a loaded phrase, one subject to a variety of interpretations and meanings. What do you mean by "given by inspiration," CM?
- Is the Bible the ultimate written authority when it comes to understanding God?
"Ultimate," for sure, but not the only one.
- Is heavenly revelation requires Divine illuminations?
I don't understand this question.
- Beyond every man "given a measure of faith", is it not true that "faith comes by faith hearing the Word of God"?
Paul makes that point in Romans 10.17, where his focus is the Gospel, or "the word about Christ."
- What's the relationship of the Father with Son and Son with Father, and the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son?
Paul summarizes the Father/Son of God relationship rather directly in Romans 1: (emphasis added)
1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, > 3 concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord,
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ro 1:1–4). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
A passage that calls to mind Peter's sermon in Jerusalem found in Acts 2:
Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ac 2:36). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
In both instances, God's action gives Jesus his position - as Son of God, and as Lord and Christ.
- Is the Trinity a revelation of God?
No. In my view, it is a good faith theological construction of human beings.
- Is the Trinity a "biblical Janus" and distant beings?
From Wikipedia, I know what a "Janus" is; I don't think the Trinity is one. I don't understand your reference to "distant beings."
- In Matt. 3: 16-17, at the baptism of Jesus, was this the manifestation of the Trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit or a trinitarian display of a heavenly ventriloquist?
- Matt. 3:16 -- "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him."
- Matt. 3: 17 -- "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".
I don't understand your decision to make those two outcomes the options of your question. The Matthew text makes a clear distinction between God and God's son (there is no reference in the text to God as "Father"). So I don't see the text as trinitarian at all, whether through manifestation or ventriloquism.
- Is it possible that the Trinity three separate being yet, one God?
Some - perhaps many - of the people who hold to a trinitarian point of view believe in some form of a three-yet-one structure to God's identity. In my view, such constructions misread Scripture, but that doesn't stop me from respecting the viewpoint.
Finally, because the reality of question number ten is beyond human comprehension, does this makes it impossible? What are your answers and the conclusion? CM
Much/Most of God is "beyond human comprehension," but that hasn't and won't stop us humans from trying to figure who God is and what God wants. In my view, Jesus was clearly the ultimate insight/revelation into both questions, though not himself God.
-
No ... the Trinity is seen nowhere at any time at all in the Bible
- Are all Scriptures given by inspiration?
Yes
- Is the Bible the ultimate written authority when it comes to understanding God?
Yes
- Is heavenly revelation requires Divine illuminations?
Not necesssarily ... once revealed it is in the realm that can be known by man (cp Deu 29:29)
- Beyond every man "given a measure of faith", is it not true that "faith comes by faith hearing the Word of God"?
Cp Rom 10:17
- What's the relationship of the Father with Son and Son with Father, and the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son?
Already that you speak of a relationship between shows that they can NOT be One acting Being or entity.
- Is the Trinity a revelation of God?
No ... it is an invention of men
- Is the Trinity a "biblical Janus" and distant beings?
Sometimes one might think it is, hearing or reading arguments of Trinitarians trying to find arguments or descriptions in order to convince themselves and others.
- In Matt. 3: 16-17, at the baptism of Jesus, was this the manifestation of the Trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit or a trinitarian display of a heavenly ventriloquist?
It was neither
- Matt. 3:16 -- "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him."
The man Jesus of Nazareth is mentioned, and the verse describes his anointing with God's holy spirit and power (cp Acts 10:38)
- Matt. 3: 17 -- "And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".
God, Who is Jesus' Father, is mentioned as making an audible declaration about the man Jesus of Nazareth.
- Is it possible that the Trinity three separate being yet, one God?
No ... the Trinity is actually an impossibility.
Finally, because the reality of question number ten is beyond human comprehension, does this makes it impossible?
I have not seen a "question 10" in your list above ...
Human comprehension is not a measure or proof whether something is possible or not; however, one cannot think up and fantasize something impossible and then declare it to be "divine" and therefore possible.What are your answers and the conclusion? CM
See above
-
@Bill_Coley said:
- Is the Trinity a "biblical Janus" and distant beings?
From Wikipedia, I know what a "Janus" is; I don't think the Trinity is one. I don't understand your reference to "distant beings."
@Wolfgang said:
@C_M_ said: > 12. Is it possible that the Trinity three separate being yet, one God?
No ... the Trinity is actually an impossibility.
Finally, because the reality of question number ten is beyond human comprehension, does this makes it impossible?
I have not seen a "question 10" in your list above ...
Bill & Wolfgang,
Thanks for taking the time to consider my questions.CORRECTIONS! CORRECTIONS! CORRECTIONS!
Bill, typo in question # 8 is the problem. It should have been "distinct" and NOT "distant". The question # 8 should have read"
Is the Trinity a "biblical Janus" or distinct Beings (three)?
Now, Bill, what says, ye?
Wolfgang, # 12 was misnumbered as you can well see. It should have been # 10 and not 12. Please forgive me for the typo. Would I be correct to assume your answer remains, after the clarification? CM
Post edited by C Mc on -
@C_M_ said:
Wolfgang, # 12 was misnumbered as you can well see. It should have been # 10 and not 12. Please forgive me for the typo. Would I be correct to assume your answer remains, after the clarification? CMMy answer remains the same ....
NOW, I would appreciate reading answers to these questions from you and other Trinity followers ... any takers? If you don't have answers to the questions, perhaps you have some comments to the answers Bill and I gave? Let's see them ....
-
Not that it matters, but here's the way I see it. God saves people who can't read. Even babies, or imbeciles. Do they believe God is a trinity (as defined in the Ecumenical Creeds)? How can they?
But for those born from above who have bibles and read them, God removes the blinders people naturally have to spiritual truth. And they are able to interpret scripture on a different level than say, the way you would read a cookbook.
And without ever learning a creed or doctrine, a spiritual person will see the threeness of the one God in scripture. And conclude, God is unlike all else. There is nothing in the physical world to mimic this. It is a spiritual truth to be taken in faith and not by sight.
-
Trinity adherents limit God to THREE "persons" - Father, Son, Holy Ghost ... on what basis do they do that?
Is God not Creator, Holy One, High and Lofty One, Almighty, Ancient of Days ... to name some ? What happened to these "Godhead-persons" ? -
@Wolfgang said:
Trinity adherents limit God to THREE "persons" - Father, Son, Holy Ghost ... on what basis do they do that?
Is God not Creator, Holy One, High and Lofty One, Almighty, Ancient of Days ... to name some ? What happened to these "Godhead-persons" ?You are almost here. Stop thinking materialistically and trying to understand at that level. One God, three entities, the physical term person tries to represent but falls short of.
-
@C_M_ said: 2. Are all Scriptures given by inspiration?
@Bill_Coley said: Yes, but I'm not sure how informative my response to your question can be since "given by inspiration" is a loaded phrase, one subject to a variety of interpretations and meanings. What do you mean by "given by inspiration," CM?Bill,
When I speak of the Bible is "given by inspiration", I meant that the writers of the Bible wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. "Inspiration"-- means God "breathed."- "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Tim 3:16-17).
The apostle Paul taught many centuries after the OT was written. This means that the Scriptures were given by inspiration of God:
- To make one wise unto salvation through faith in Christ.
- To present trustworthy and authoritative doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.
- To help believers become "perfect [mature], thoroughly furnished unto all good works." The idea that revelation must be trustworthy requires that significant biblical revelation content concerning salvation, doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness must have been communicated accurately through the Scriptures.
The inspired writers employed cultural materials and presented their messages in terms of their contemporary language and thought forms seen in the words and varied literary forms and genres in both the OT and NT.
The Bible indicates the different ways the persons inspired by the Spirit spoke in thought structures familiar with their listeners.
- The OT is mostly stories, poetry, sayings, and prophecies, expressed in concrete images and set in a narrative and metaphoric framework.
- The NT records that Jesus spoke in parables to the crowds, the people of the land.
- Jesus shifted to the organization of the rabbinic Midrash when He was speaking to those exposed to the rabbinic traditions of His day.
- Paul used the form of Greek speeches, elaboration, and argumentation in his writings. Though Paul's concerns remained evangelistic and pastoral, yet many times the framework of thought was abstract, conceptual, and logical.
@C_M_ said: 4. Is heavenly revelation requires Divine illuminations?
@Bill_Coley said: I don't understand this question.If Scripture is God-given, it could reasonably be assumed it will take divine enlightenment or illuminations? Interpretation is frequently needed when revelation content is given. And it is also often needed at later times when changing circumstances call for new and different applications of spiritual principles presented in the previous revelation.
Because of the need for an accurate understanding of the content of revelation, and because fallen human nature is unable to fully grasp spiritual realities (1 Cor 2:12-14), the guidance of the Holy Spirit is necessary to ensure correct interpretation. For the purposes of these reflections on revelation, this guidance or "illumination" may be defined as God, through the Holy Spirit, enlightening the minds of human beings so they might correctly interpret, understand, and apply the spiritual message of revelation. Without this illumination, revelation is incomplete.
In sum:
- Rev 22:18, 19 -- “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book”.
- Prov 30:5 -- “Every word of God is pure; he is a shield unto them that trust in Him, add thou not unto his words lest he reprove thee and thou be found a liar”.
- Deut 4:2 -- “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it”. CM
SOURCE for further reading:
-- James L. Bailey and Lyle D. Vander Broek, Literary Forms in the New Testament: A Handbook (Louisville: Westminster, 1992).
-
Greetings Dave,
And thanks for visiting this thread and adding the following thought:
@Dave_L said:
Not that it matters, but here's the way I see it. God saves people who can't read. Even babies, or imbeciles. Do they believe God is a trinity (as defined in the Ecumenical Creeds)? How can they?I think the above response matters because:
(ONE) it actually touches on the Question asked in the OP.
(TWO) Makes clear or at least hints at the Sovereignty of God concerning soteriology. We can't merit nor can we earn salvation. -
@C_M_ said:
8. Is the Trinity a "biblical Janus" and distant beings?From Wikipedia, I know what a "Janus" is; I don't think the Trinity is one. I don't understand your reference to "distant beings."
Bill, typo in question # 8 is the problem. It should have been "distinct" and NOT "distant". The question # 8 should have read"
Is the Trinity a "biblical Janus" or distinct Beings (three)?
Now, Bill, what says, ye?
Thanks for the clarification, CM.
It's not clear to me why the Trinity must be either a "biblical Janus" or "three distinct beings." But given those options, it seems to me that for advocates of trinitarian theology, the Trinity connotes three distinct components of the same God, hence I lean toward the "distinct beings" option. As a person who does not support trinitarian theology, I contend the question you ask is basically moot, neither option being necessary to describe a construct that in my view is not supported by Scripture.
-
@C_M_ said:
When I speak of the Bible is "given by inspiration", I meant that the writers of the Bible wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. "Inspiration"-- means God "breathed."- "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Tim 3:16-17).
Thanks for the clarification, one I sought principally to gauge the role inerrancy plays in your definition of inspiration. I believe all Scripture is inspired - that God had a role in its writing, collection, and interpretation - but I don't believe all Scripture is inerrant. For me, that makes the whole of Scripture trustworthy, but not inerrant.
However, whether Scripture is inspired or inerrant is of questionable usefulness when it comes to the Trinity, I contend, because in my view the concept is not supported by Scripture.
-
@Dave_L said:
@Wolfgang said:
Trinity adherents limit God to THREE "persons" - Father, Son, Holy Ghost ... on what basis do they do that?
Is God not Creator, Holy One, High and Lofty One, Almighty, Ancient of Days ... to name some ? What happened to these "Godhead-persons" ?You are almost here. Stop thinking materialistically and trying to understand at that level. One God, three entities, the physical term person tries to represent but falls short of.
Ok, so I change from "persons" to your term "entities" ... it just doesn't change a thing. Why are there only three ENTITIES in your God? Why are the other ENTITIES not being considered and what happened to these "Godhead-entities" ??
![[Deleted User]](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/fcddec765be35f238a0844bd23f54b59/?default=https%3A%2F%2Fvanillicon.com%2F8ce8323767a20f0f45db140c4cd2cea1_200.png&rating=g&size=200)
