"God" - an acting "person"/"spirit being" or a "team"/"group"?
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In a recent talk with a person about Islam and Christianity, that person brought up the point that it appeared to him that many Christians believe in a "Holy Trinity" .... and he found it disturbing that they were never clear what they actually meant when speaking of "God" and especially so when speaking about scripture passages which just use the term "God".
As an example, he mentioned the first verse in the Bible (Gen 1:1 -- "In the beginning GOD created ...."). Is the word "God" in this verse a reference to one single "person/spirit being" Who created? Or does the word "God" refer to a team/group of three "persons/spirit beings" ?
What about "And God said ...." did a team, group, unit of Three individuals speak? or did just one individual speak?
He was rather disappointed that Christians (he himself considered himself to be a Christian!) seemingly were totally unclear about who or what "God" is and to whom the term refers ... while his moslem acquaintances seemed to have that point very clear because for them there is only One ("Allah") Who Alone is "God".
What do the Trinitarian folks here say? There are hundreds of occurrences of just the term "God" in the Bible ... to whom does the term refer?
Comments
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I think if we take God beyond being a spiritual concept and define him materialistically we end up with an idol. It's easy to do this if we call "one" one thinking materialistically. But not being material, scripture says: (1) There is only one God. (2) The Father is God. (3) The Son is God. (4) The Holy Spirit is God. (5) The Father is not the Son. (6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit. (7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
So knowing this and not forming a mental image alleviates the idol worship associated with physical concepts.
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@Dave_L said:
I think if we take God beyond being a spiritual concept and define him materialistically we end up with an idol. It's easy to do this if we call "one" one thinking materialistically. But not being material, scripture says: (1) There is only one GodYes
(2) The Father is God.
Yes, the Father is this God
(3) The Son is God.No, scripture does NOT say that the Son is God ... it says, that the man Jesus is the Son OF God.
(4) The Holy Spirit is God.
Scripture says that the true God, the Father, is both Holy and Spirit; thus the term "the Holy Spirit" is in a few passages used in reference to God (similar to God being called "the Almighty", "the Creator", "the Ancient of Days", etc)
(5) The Father is not the Son. (6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit.
This should be obvious
(7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
See above ... the term "the Holy Spirit" is actually used in Scripture in reference to God, Who is the Father, the Creator, the Almighty, the Highest, etc
So knowing this and not forming a mental image alleviates the idol worship associated with physical concepts.
Knowing false information but believing it to be true information may easily lead to idol worship and - in this case - to having "three Gods", but living in denial by constantly declaring that they (the three) are only "one God"
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“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”” (Matthew 28:19–20)
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@Dave_L said:
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”” (Matthew 28:19–20)Trinity: The Truth About Matthew 28:19 & 1 John 5:7
Matthew 28:19 In Original Gospel of Matthew: Trinitarian Formula or Not?
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@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”” (Matthew 28:19–20)Trinity: The Truth About Matthew 28:19 & 1 John 5:7
Matthew 28:19 In Original Gospel of Matthew: Trinitarian Formula or Not?
I don't think anyone can counter the fact that Peter baptized in the personal name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit when he baptized in Jesus' name.
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@Dave_L said:
I don't think anyone can counter the fact that Peter baptized in the personal name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit when he baptized in Jesus' name.Everyone I know and every author I've ever read acknowledges and agrees that your claim that "Jesus" is "the personal name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" is false because "Jesus" is NOT the name of his Father, etc. The Father's name is said to be YHWH (Jahwe), not Jesus. In addition, all agree that there is no name at all ever mentioned for the Trinity as a whole, nor the Holy Spirit as a "3rd Godhead person" individually.
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Your claim has no value and no bearing on the matter at all -
My claim is insurmountable. It says the Father, Son, And Holy Spirit have one name - Jesus Christ. And to prove it correct, Peter and all the apostles baptized in Jesus' name.
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@Dave_L said:
My claim is insurmountable. It says the Father, Son, And Holy Spirit have one name - Jesus Christ. And to prove it correct, Peter and all the apostles baptized in Jesus' name.Keep claiming all you want ... it doesn't change error into truth
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How can you or any change Matthew's or Like's words? They need no interpretation.
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@Wolfgang said:
the term "God" in the Bible ... to whom does the term refer?
In Scripture where the term God is used of the one true God this would refer to the Father for both Unitarian and Trinitarian.
Observations:
The Unitarian foundation of God is: One Being of God; uni-personal – Father; Spirit – the emanating personal power/force from the Father; eternal. (Unitarian modalism is not taken into account here)The Trinitarian foundation of God is: One Being of God; tri-personal – Father, Son, Spirit; distinct in personhood; co-eternal; co-equal.
Difference of Being and Person: Ontologically Being is what something is – all things have Being; Personhood, on the other hand, is who a person is. Being and Personhood are not interchangeable. Regarding Being, God is a Spirit Being while John Doe is a Human Being.
Having these few basics will do much to reduce confusion. It will also, for the Trinitarian, be a preventative of sounding like a Modalist at times.
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So in Scripture the term "God" is a sole reference to the Father, the Creator, the Almighty, the Highest, etc ... but then, for Trinitarians, outside of Scripture the term "God" refers to a "Trinity (group, family, three-persons-Godhead)" ???
Observations:
The Unitarian foundation of God is: One Being of God; uni-personal – Father; Spirit – the emanating personal power/force from the Father; eternal. (Unitarian modalism is not taken into account here)One Being = One Individual "person"
The Trinitarian foundation of God is: One Being of God; tri-personal – Father, Son, Spirit; distinct in personhood; co-eternal; co-equal.
One Being = Three Individuals (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) ???
Quite obviously, Trinitarians have a different definition of "One Being" than what is normally the meaning in the English language in such context.Difference of Being and Person: Ontologically Being is what something is – all things have Being; Personhood, on the other hand, is who a person is. Being and Personhood are not interchangeable. Regarding Being, God is a Spirit Being while John Doe is a Human Being.
This seems a rather "artificial" and "forced" explanation .... the final sentence is no different than saying "God is a Spirit person. while John Doe is a human person." In each case, both "God" and "John Doe" are single individual beings/persons ... "God" is not a tri-person being!
Having these few basics will do much to reduce confusion.
Unfortunately, the opposite is the case ... it adds to the confusion.
It will also, for the Trinitarian, be a preventative of sounding like a Modalist at times.
??? The real problem for a Trinitarian is that he/she sounds more like "Three-Theist" when claiming that Three distinct persons/personhoods are supposedly only one Being.
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@Wolfgang said:
So in Scripture the term "God" is a sole reference to the Father, the Creator, the Almighty, the Highest, etc ... but then, for Trinitarians, outside of Scripture the term "God" refers to a "Trinity (group, family, three-persons-Godhead)" ???
Not quite. God, for the Trinitarian, is always tri-personal even if as in this case the Father is the referent. In other words, this reference to the Father does not do away with the second and third persons of the Trinity – Son and Holy Spirit.
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@Pages said:
Not quite. God, for the Trinitarian, is always tri-personal even if as in this case the Father is the referent. In other words, this reference to the Father does not do away with the second and third persons of the Trinity – Son and Holy Spirit.So then, the word "God" in reference to the true God in the Bible refers to "the Father". In other words, "the Father" is that One, Who is the true God.
But then, "God" supposedly is not just the Father, but rather also the Son and the Holy Spirit? So then, when "the Holy Spirit" is mentioned in Scripture in reference to "God", it is not the 3rd person of the Trinity, but also the Father and also the Son? When "the Son" is mentioned, it is not only the 2nd person of the Trinity but also the Father and the Holy Spirit?
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The Biblical Test of a False Teacher is one who does not recognize or openly confess that Jesus is God incarnate. The one who rejects Jesus as God incarnate is not of God and is the spirit of antichrist.
1 Jn 4
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@GaoLu said:
The Biblical Test of a False Teacher is one who does not recognize or openly confess that Jesus is God incarnate.Could you please refer us to the Biblical text which says what you claim? Which scripture speaks about God incarnate or any person or thing "incarnated"??
The one who rejects Jesus as God incarnate is not of God and is the spirit of antichrist.
1 Jn 4I've read through 1John 4 and could not find any verse or passage which teaches what you claim ....
Could it be that you are basing your claim on a false idea in the first place and that is why it is not found in any Biblical text?
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Thos> @Wolfgang said:
I've read through 1John 4 and could not find any verse or passage which teaches what you claim ....
As expected.
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? If you expected that 1John 4 doesn't say or teach what you initially claimed, why did you refer to that chapter?
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@Wolfgang said:
As expected.
? If you expected that 1John 4 doesn't say or teach what you initially claimed, why did you refer to that chapter?
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@Wolfgang said:
So then, the word "God" in reference to the true God in the Bible refers to "the Father".
Yes, most usually, unless the reference is to the Son, or Holy Spirit.
@Wolfgang said:
But then, "God" supposedly is not just the Father, but rather also the Son and the Holy Spirit?
Correct. One Being of God, and tri-personal.
That is to say, within the indivisible one Being of God there exists eternally and equally three actual Persons – Father, Son, Spirit. This construct is neither modalistic, God manifesting Himself in three modes of existence; nor tri-theistic, having one Being and three Beings; nor is it partialism, where each of the Persons are only a part, one-third, of God.
@Wolfgang said:
So then, when "the Holy Spirit" is mentioned in Scripture in reference to "God", it is not the 3rd person of the Trinity, but also the Father and also the Son?
When the Holy Spirit is the referent, then yes, the sole reference is to the third person of the Trinity, and etc.
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@Pages said:
But then, "God" supposedly is not just the Father, but rather also the Son and the Holy Spirit?
Correct. One Being of God, and tri-personal.
That is to say, within the indivisible one Being of God there exists eternally and equally three actual Persons – Father, Son, Spirit. This construct is neither modalistic, God manifesting Himself in three modes of existence; nor tri-theistic, having one Being and three Beings; nor is it partialism, where each of the Persons are only a part, one-third, of God.Hmn ... I find this statement and paragraph utterly confusing and self-contradictory. perhaps "one" is "one but not really one", "person" is "person but not really person", "parts" are "parts but not really parts", etc etc etc ???
To clarify, I used to believe such stuff and took it for truth because pastor, preacher and most folks around me all said it and claimed that they believe this great mystery too ... until I began to apply my mind and my God given abilities of logic and reason (instead of leaving them in the drawer and take others' word without thinking)
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You god is too small.
I was in Sumatra and asked to pray for the Christian wife of a man who worshipped idols. The spiritual warfare was palpable in that house, but that is not my story so let me lurch forward. The husband truly trusted his idols. They were something he could see and understand. They fit his logic and ability to perceive. What he rejected, angrily, was the god of his wife, a god he could not contain, a god he could not fully describe, a god who would not conform to the bounds of his intellect and logic. He could contain his gods and put them on a shelf.
The paradox is that he believed the idols to have power beyond his comprehension and logic. He believed that there were forces beyond his perception that controlled people and events in his life. I would argue he was right on some counts. The evil spiritual presence in that house was dreadful--details of that are for another time.
I prayed that God would break the powers of evil in that household, open the man's heart to spiritual understanding, and keep a hedge of protection around the Christian woman living there.
She understood that God was good, greater than her perception, beyond the bounds of her logical prowess, and yet very real and existing just as He is described in the Bible and experienced in the Christian walk. Her God cannot be contained in any kind of man-made idol, whether of wood, stone, plastic or a concept in her mind.
Her God is very, very, big.
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@GaoLu said:
You god is too small.Why would you have such an idea?
I was in Sumatra and asked to pray for the Christian wife of a man who worshipped idols. The spiritual warfare was palpable in that house, but that is not my story so let me lurch forward. The husband truly trusted his idols. They were something he could see and understand. They fit his logic and ability to perceive. What he rejected, angrily, was the god of his wife, a god he could not contain, a god he could not fully describe, a god who would not conform to the bounds of his intellect and logic. He could contain his gods and put them on a shelf.
Hmn ... and what does this have to do with the discussion about the God of the Bible and what that God, the Creator of heaven and earth, the Almighty, the Most High, the Father of Jesus and those who believe in Him, the Ancient of Days, ++ has revealed about Himself and Who He is?
The paradox is that he believed the idols to have power beyond his comprehension and logic. He believed that there were forces beyond his perception that controlled people and events in his life. I would argue he was right on some counts. The evil spiritual presence in that house was dreadful--details of that are for another time.
There is no paradox, rather an example of a misled person who believes the lie that a statue or the false god it represents has powers which it doesn't have.
I prayed that God would break the powers of evil in that household, open the man's heart to spiritual understanding, and keep a hedge of protection around the Christian woman living there.
Well done ...
She understood that God was good, greater than her perception, beyond the bounds of her logical prowess, and yet very real and existing just as He is described in the Bible and experienced in the Christian walk.
And you want now to give the impression as if I (or any non-trinitarian) did not understand and believe that God is good and greater than their perception and beyond bounds of their logical prowess nor real and existing ????
Did you notice that you not once made reference to the Holy Trinity, but only to God?Her God cannot be contained in any kind of man-made idol, whether of wood, stone, plastic or a concept in her mind.
Her God is very, very, big.So then why do Trinitarians try to contain God in their man-made concept of a "Tri-nity" (initially, by the way, this was in the early stages of the development of that concept and theology only a "Bi-nity", since "Holy Ghost" was only added at a church council later on)?
