Jesus and his God ...

Pages

@Wolfgang

Because of this truth, I don't think it to be a good idea to make a theology of the fact that in John only in this place the term is used in John.

Understand your point – rest assured I’m aware of the totality of Scripture and the danger that can come about from ignoring or discarding parts of it – thankfully I’m not a student of Marcion.

And especially so, since we are not talking about John's words as used in his narrative, but about Jesus' words as recorded by John.

All Scripture is... (cf. 2Tim. 3:16) I really don’t think you intended to make a ‘red letter’ Bible argument in stating your case.

And Jesus himself spoke of God being the believers' heavenly Father in other places as well.

Yes, he did.

So then, since according to your above statement "believers are brothers by adoption" and they are "TRUE brothers" of Jesus, are you saying Jesus also was God's Son by adoption like the believers are ? If not, what do you mean with "TRUE brothers of Jesus"??

No, Jesus was not adopted by the Father.

That believers can now truly be brothers of Jesus; and that brotherhood, including believers adoption by the Father, is only made possible by the resurrection event (cf. Ro. 8:29; Heb. 2:11; 1Pe. 1:3).

what about the fact that you use Trinity based arguments to interpret Scripture when Scripture does not even mention what you claim? For example, ideas about a previous special relationship between God and Jesus prior to Jesus' conception and birth, etc. which is not found in Scripture but is an integral part of church council established Trinity dogma?

Thank you for your compliment, and I do consider your statement here a compliment in that you recognize I have articulated my position, found in the second observation - original post; whereby you have no question that it expressed Scripture in a trinitarian vocabulary that gave answer to the original question – even though you are in disagreement with it.

I maintain that Scripture itself is to be the driving force of one’s theology. I consider the councils to have debated and framed the vocabulary most useful and precise to explain that which is found within Scripture.

I do think that these passages are plain and clear in teaching that the Lord Jesus Christ has a God above him, and this God is his Father...

Fully agree.

...and not the Lord Jesus Christ himself.

I take you to mean by this phrase that you don’t consider the Father and Jesus as being the same person. If this is what you are wishing to convey – then I’m in agreement, as I’m not a modalist.

The God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ is the same true God, God and Father, of all those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Agree.

in regards to Jesus having not only a Father above him,...

To add another interesting statement of Jesus recorded in John 17...

As to the Scripture references you have provided, last two posts above, (2Cor. 11:31; Eph. 1:3; 1Pet. 1:3; Jn. 17:3, 20:17) I simply respond by directing you back to my second observation section in my original post regarding “θεόν μου“ where I answer why Jesus has a God and how this does not negate the Trinity. My response to the above Scripture references is identical to my response at Jn. 20:17.

To Whom was Jesus praying? V.1 states that he was praying to his Father in heaven. Is this a different Father from that Father Whom he mentions in Joh 20:17? Is this a different Father from that Father to Whom he instructed his disciples to pray?

It is the same Father referenced in Jn.17:3, 20:17 and Matt. 6:9.

According to Jesus' statement in Scripture (John 17:3), he regards this Father to be the ONLY ONE Who is true God ... Jesus leaves no room at all to include anyone else besides his Father as "true God".

Agree.

Also, this important truth that only the Father is true God, is stated in other NT writings as well (e.g., cp. several passages in Pauline epistles)

Agree with you here as well.

Pages

@GaoLu said:

Therefore, in Trinitarian theology the Father began relating to the Son as his God the moment the second person of the Trinity entered into the created order (cf. Phil. 2:7-8) taking on flesh "σὰρξ ἐγένετο" (cf. Jn. 1:14); and it is for this reason that Jesus, both true man true God, can speak of the first person of the Trinity, the Father, as “θεόν μου”.

I appreciate your clarity and explanations. You have a keen grasp of the word and fine ability to articulate theology that is helpful to me. If you think it might be helpful for us, could you expand a little on the notion above?

First, let thank you. I will say that what I wrote prior to the statement you selected sets up the background – ie., the OT passages listed – if why Jesus has a God is in anyway related to what you wish to have more information about. Perhaps your inquiry is concerned with the incarnation and/or two natures. Not being certain requires I ask you for more information.

[Deleted User]

@Pages said:
All Scripture is... (cf. 2Tim. 3:16) I really don’t think you intended to make a ‘red letter’ Bible argument in stating your case.

No "red letter" Bible intended ... but observing who is recorded to have said what and to whom and when etc are rather important objective keys to gain a correct understanding of what the Scriptures record and teach.

So then, since according to your above statement "believers are brothers by adoption" and they are "TRUE brothers" of Jesus, are you saying Jesus also was God's Son by adoption like the believers are ? If not, what do you mean with "TRUE brothers of Jesus"??

No, Jesus was not adopted by the Father.

Indeed .... so then what do you mean with "TRUE" in your expression "believers are TRUE brothers of Jesus"? In other words, in which way do both believers and Jesus have God as their Father?

That believers can now truly be brothers of Jesus; and that brotherhood, including believers adoption by the Father, is only made possible by the resurrection event (cf. Ro. 8:29; Heb. 2:11; 1Pe. 1:3).

See above ... you say believers have God as their father by adoption, Jesus has God as his Father not by adoption ... then here you throw in "the resurrection event" (do you mean the resurrection of Jesus? or the resurrection of the believers?) ... but what do you mean with "TRUE brothers" ?

what about the fact that you use Trinity based arguments to interpret Scripture when Scripture does not even mention what you claim? For example, ideas about a previous special relationship between God and Jesus prior to Jesus' conception and birth, etc. which is not found in Scripture but is an integral part of church council established Trinity dogma?

Thank you for your compliment, and I do consider your statement here a compliment in that you recognize I have articulated my position, found in the second observation - original post; whereby you have no question that it expressed Scripture in a trinitarian vocabulary that gave answer to the original question – even though you are in disagreement with it.

Nice try (almost reminiscent of politicians' typical talk) ... I did NOT make a compliment at all but rather pointed out that you were doing the opposite of what you claimed. Instead of taking Scripture as your base of argument in order to get a correct understanding, you were taking Trinity dogma as your base in order to interpret Scripture in a particular way.

I maintain that Scripture itself is to be the driving force of one’s theology. I consider the councils to have debated and framed the vocabulary most useful and precise to explain that which is found within Scripture.

I regard the dogma's declared at church councils are man made doctrine and by no means expressing what Scripture teaches regarding God, Jesus or Holy Spirit.

I do think that these passages are plain and clear in teaching that the Lord Jesus Christ has a God above him, and this God is his Father...

Fully agree.

Do you? Do you realize that he himself then is not and can not be himself that God?

...and not the Lord Jesus Christ himself.

I take you to mean by this phrase that you don’t consider the Father and Jesus as being the same person. If this is what you are wishing to convey – then I’m in agreement, as I’m not a modalist.

I do not consider Jesus and his Father to be the same person, and subsequently do not consider Jesus and his Father to be the same God.

As to the Scripture references you have provided, last two posts above, (2Cor. 11:31; Eph. 1:3; 1Pet. 1:3; Jn. 17:3, 20:17) I simply respond by directing you back to my second observation section in my original post regarding “θεόν μου“ where I answer why Jesus has a God and how this does not negate the Trinity. My response to the above Scripture references is identical to my response at Jn. 20:17.

Of course they negate the Trinity idea of Jesus also being God. Or are you promoting a Trinity that has three Gods with the God Jesus having the God Father as his God above him??

According to Jesus' statement in Scripture (John 17:3), he regards this Father to be the ONLY ONE Who is true God ... Jesus leaves no room at all to include anyone else besides his Father as "true God".

Agree.

So then what is your idea and definition of the Trinity? If you consider Jesus to be God (as all Trinitarians I have come to know believe) you would of course contradict what Jesus himself declared as recorded in Joh 17:3 and as is recorded in other NT passages as well.

Also, this important truth that only the Father is true God, is stated in other NT writings as well (e.g., cp. several passages in Pauline epistles)

Agree with you here as well.

I suppose I need some clarification regarding what kind of "Trinity" you have in mind, as your comments appear somewhat self-contradictory

Pages

@Wolfgang said:

So then, since according to your above statement "believers are brothers by adoption" and they are "TRUE brothers" of Jesus, are you saying Jesus also was God's Son by adoption like the believers are ? If not, what do you mean with "TRUE brothers of Jesus"??

No, Jesus was not adopted by the Father.

Indeed .... so then what do you mean with "TRUE" in your expression "believers are TRUE brothers of Jesus"? In other words, in which way do both believers and Jesus have God as their Father?

That believers can now truly be brothers of Jesus; and that brotherhood, including believers adoption by the Father, is only made possible by the resurrection event (cf. Ro. 8:29; Heb. 2:11; 1Pe. 1:3).

See above ... you say believers have God as their father by adoption, Jesus has God as his Father not by adoption ... then here you throw in "the resurrection event" (do you mean the resurrection of Jesus? or the resurrection of the believers?) ... but what do you mean with "TRUE brothers" ?

Jesus’ resurrection is meant. I’ll repost from my original statement below.
...of the Father’s unique relationship by nature to His Son, and that by adoption to believers (cf. Heb. 2:11). ... and share the same Father and God; this sonship of believers having come about through the resurrection of Jesus (cf. 1Pet. 1:3).

As for ‘true’ it is being used in the sense of real or accurate.

If you consider Jesus to be God (as all Trinitarians I have come to know believe) you would of course contradict what Jesus himself declared as recorded in Joh 17:3 and as is recorded in other NT passages as well.

My question to you – why would you believe there is a contradiction as described above in light of my previous response regarding the passages you cite? I’ll repost that response below.

Second observation:
Why Jesus can say “θεόν μου” at v. 17b and not negate the Trinity – two points follow:

1. God is “the God of all flesh” and all flesh is “under the law” (cf. Jer. 32:27; Gal. 4:4).

2. Scripture says to worship God and obey God (cf. Ex. 23:25; Lev. 18:4).

The person Jesus is flesh (cf. Ro. 1:3, 8:3; 1John 4:2) by way of a virgin birth (cf. Matt. 1:23; Luke 1:34-35) subject to God and His Law (cf. Jn. 6:38, 8:29), and it is through his obedience that the Law is fulfilled (cf. Matt. 5:17).

Therefore, in Trinitarian theology the Father began relating to the Son as his God the moment the second person of the Trinity entered into the created order (cf. Phil. 2:7-8) taking on flesh "σὰρξ ἐγένετο" (cf. Jn. 1:14); and it is for this reason that Jesus, both true man true God, can speak of the first person of the Trinity, the Father, as “θεόν μου”.

In short, “θεόν μου” does not provide evidence against the Trinity; rather, it demonstrates the humanity of the second person of the Trinity and the relationship of Father to Son after the Son’s incarnation.

As to the ..."kind of "Trinity"" question

I suppose I need some clarification regarding what kind of "Trinity" you have in mind, as your comments appear somewhat self-contradictory

Standard orthodox trinitarian. Where God is one Being, tri-personal having three actual distinct co-eternal co-equal Persons, Father, Son, and Spirit. That the Persons are in unity and share the essence of the one Being of God.

Off topic: what is the best way to go about quoting parts of a post (to include previous quote history) when wanting to reply to specific parts of the post? I seem to be very challenged at this task.

[Deleted User]

@Pages said:

@Wolfgang said:

I’ll repost from my original statement below.
...of the Father’s unique relationship by nature to His Son, and that by adoption to believers (cf. Heb. 2:11). ... and share the same Father and God; this sonship of believers having come about through the resurrection of Jesus (cf. 1Pet. 1:3).

As for ‘true’ it is being used in the sense of real or accurate.

Ok ... and what then is the point you are trying to make? That Jesus could call his Father God because the believers can call their heavenly Father God? or that Jesus only had a God during the particular time between his conception and birth and then his resurrection from the dead? or what?

If you consider Jesus to be God (as all Trinitarians I have come to know believe) you would of course contradict what Jesus himself declared as recorded in Joh 17:3 and as is recorded in other NT passages as well.

My question to you – why would you believe there is a contradiction as described above in light of my previous response regarding the passages you cite?

The contradiction arises due to the truth that the true God can NOT Himself have a God, and the contradiction then is between (a) Jesus acknowledging that he has a God (NOT that he is that God), and (b) the Trinity doctrine claiming that Jesus actually is God.

Furthermore, any claim that Jesus is God at whatever time, contradicts Jesus' words that the Father ALONE is the true God.

I’ll repost that response below.

Second observation:
Why Jesus can say “θεόν μου” at v. 17b and not negate the Trinity – two points follow:
1. God is “the God of all flesh” and all flesh is “under the law” (cf. Jer. 32:27; Gal. 4:4).
2. Scripture says to worship God and obey God (cf. Ex. 23:25; Lev. 18:4).
The person Jesus is flesh (cf. Ro. 1:3, 8:3; 1John 4:2) by way of a virgin birth (cf. Matt. 1:23; Luke 1:34-35) subject to God and His Law (cf. Jn. 6:38, 8:29), and it is through his obedience that the Law is fulfilled (cf. Matt. 5:17).

Therefore, in Trinitarian theology the Father began relating to the Son as his God the moment the second person of the Trinity entered into the created order (cf. Phil. 2:7-8) taking on flesh "σὰρξ ἐγένετο" (cf. Jn. 1:14); and it is for this reason that Jesus, both true man true God, can speak of the first person of the Trinity, the Father, as “θεόν μου”.

In short, “θεόν μου” does not provide evidence against the Trinity; rather, it demonstrates the humanity of the second person of the Trinity and the relationship of Father to Son after the Son’s incarnation.

See above ... many words and reasoning not based on Scripture simple truth but on Trinity theology doctrine instead. All those many words do not really address nor solve the contradiction mentioned above ...

Put in few plain words, what you are trying to argue is this: From eternity past to about 2000 years ago Jesus was God, then for about 30 years this God Jesus became a man, and after his resurrection and forever Jesus again changed back from man to God.
Such man fabricated Trinity theology flat out contradicts what the Bible teaches about the true God.

Standard orthodox trinitarian. Where God is one Being, tri-personal having three actual distinct co-eternal co-equal Persons, Father, Son, and Spirit. That the Persons are in unity and share the essence of the one Being of God.

See above ... a mixture of "persons","God", "essence", "being", etc ... therewith "muddying the waters" to confuse people and more easily "convince" them of the whole thing actually being a big mystery.