Capital Punishment: Should a Christian Support State-Sponsored Executions?

GaoLu

Don't worry. Not me, but Bill injected your name in there to make smoke, as a red herring. It doesn't involve you.

Bill_Coley

@GaoLu said:
Back then it seemed like a remote possibility that Bill was faking being Wolfgang, but the notion came up, since Bill seemed to have multiple proliferating identities at that time. Soon after confrontation, most of the fakes disappeared. And boy was Bill defensive about the obvious! It got so funny and sad to see the frenzied and frightened scurry. In the end, we knew that "Wolfgang" was one of the identities Bill probably did not fake. It is entirely possible there were others.

So, Bill, it is understandable that you use the one and only moniker that you could possibly use as a flimsy escape. That's OK. You make regular blind exposures of yourself, usually small subtle ones, and sometimes huge glaring ones like your obviously fake impossibly anachronistic reference to C_M_. Just too many lies and deceptions to cover. Might want to start over. But, we will still know who and what you are.

It's this kind of content in your responses to me, Gao Lu, that serves as an identity check: It assures me that the post indeed comes from you.

GaoLu

At least my identity is real, huh Bill? Not playing games pretending or trolling myself. Huh.

Yiundomit yiur way. I’ll domit mine. Thanks for the oft-parroted honor. I can live for weeks in a good complement.

[Deleted User]

@Bill_Coley said:
In Deut 17, God is NOT responsible for offenses/crime committed. But God IS responsible for the fact that death is the punishment for certain offenses/crimes. The punishment for those crimes COULD HAVE BEEN removal from the community, either permanently or a defined period of time, or some other punishment. But it wasn't; it was death. And the reason it was death, according to the text, is that God chose it to be death.

well, well ... this sort of equates "being responsible" with "being to blame" ... because the "smarty fellows" now would blame God for the offender suffering death penalty because - according to them - had God prescribed a different punishment, the offender could have remained alive
See, in our day and time, it seems to me that "being responsible" is usually used as a synonym for "being to be blamed", "being guilty for having caused", etc ....

I didn't ask "Who is to blame?" I simply asked who created the penalties that resulted in offenders' deaths?

See above concerning today's usage of the expression of being responsible and by extension blame, guilt and punishment, etc.

My simple take is this: Yes, God prescribed the penalties. No, God is not responsible (nor to be blamed for, guilty of) the result of the offender's death.

Bill_Coley

@GaoLu said:
At least my identity is real, huh Bill? Not playing games pretending or trolling myself. Huh.

Yiundomit yiur way. I’ll domit mine. Thanks for the oft-parroted honor. I can live for weeks in a good complement.

Your barrage of personal and obsession-driven attacks against me, Gao Lu, has reached a disquieting pitch and pace, so I will no longer respond to it, not even with the boilerplate content about a post's content verifying your authorship.

I remain willing to engage your posts when they contain content appropriate for forums whose expectation is that you will "criticize ideas, not people."

GaoLu

Bill (and aliases), we know who and what you are. If others choose to engage your buffoonery, that is their business. As you probably notice, I rarely engage you directly, but rather occasionally highlight what has become obvious to those who have known you for a while, that you stoop to any low level to discredit God, Jesus, the Bible, God's people and righteousness. You have no other cause.

You have never made any effort to glorify God, build his church or to understand the Bible. You pointedly avoid doing so. Your efforts are focused on using politics as a distraction from doing so. Sadly, it has worked and most CD participants with something of value to add, have left. Thankfully @reformed has stuck around. If anyone gets on a spiritual or Biblical topic you ignore it or resort to standard liberal intolerant bullying and intimidation of anybody who disagrees with you, and the desire to stop any expression of any alternative view or way of thinking. Well, you failed. If your only remaining solution to having your covers pulled off is to shut up in hopes that I will do the same--then dream on.

You made a really stupid mistake revealing the depth of your deceit and now you just apparently can't think of anything else to do. I have no intention of going light on your chicanery. You want more--stick around.

You can respond or not, I don't care. I will keep doing as I see fit.

reformed

@GaoLu said:
Bill (and aliases), we know who and what you are. If others choose to engage your buffoonery, that is their business. As you probably notice, I rarely engage you directly, but rather occasionally highlight what has become obvious to those who have known you for a while, that you stoop to any low level to discredit God, Jesus, the Bible, God's people and righteousness. You have no other cause.

You have never made any effort to glorify God, build his church or to understand the Bible. You pointedly avoid doing so. Your efforts are focused on using politics as a distraction from doing so. Sadly, it has worked and most CD participants with something of value to add, have left. Thankfully @reformed has stuck around. If anyone gets on a spiritual or Biblical topic you ignore it or resort to standard liberal intolerant bullying and intimidation of anybody who disagrees with you, and the desire to stop any expression of any alternative view or way of thinking. Well, you failed. If your only remaining solution to having your covers pulled off is to shut up in hopes that I will do the same--then dream on.

You made a really stupid mistake revealing the depth of your deceit and now you just apparently can't think of anything else to do. I have no intention of going light on your chicanery. You want more--stick around.

You can respond or not, I don't care. I will keep doing as I see fit.

Here Here!

GaoLu

Think I am overdoing a good thing?

I found this interesting: https://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2018/august/why-you-got-blocked-whats-okay-and-not-okay-on-social-media.html

C Mc

@GaoLu said:
Bill (and aliases)...

Who are these "aliases"? Are they real or imagined? Can you, GaoLu, quickly identify them, so we can get back to the OP? Wolfgang was beginning to lay foundation food for thought on the subject. CM

GaoLu

You know all you need to know and so does everyone else. That is all I ever intended. It's painted in red all over the living room by the perpetrator for those who need to know. I may point it out again from time to time as needed.

Now back to Wolfgang's fine foundational food on executions.

C Mc

@GaoLu said:
You know all you need to know and so does everyone else. That is all I ever intended. It's painted in red all over the living room by the perpetrator for those who need to know. I may point it out again from time to time as needed.

Now back to Wolfgang's fine foundational food on executions.

Your repeating what I said about Wolfgang's contribution is alright with me. However, I just want to know if there is any truth to this "alias"-thing? Or at least, this alias fever has broken. CM

GaoLu

Oh, I am sure it will go on.

C Mc

At last, back to the OP. CM

GaoLu

One might also note that, as happened with various Bill-aliases on the old forum, we also note on the new forum, where when Bill goes absent briefly, his alias(s) always go absent at the same time for the same duration.

Curing this could require a lot more work for some, which isn't necessary.

C Mc

Should there be no capital punishment or only under strict guidelines as below?

Exo. 23:7 -- No capital punishment based on circumstantial evidence.
Deu. 25:23 -- Not inflicting excessive corporal punishment.

It is necessary to remember that Deuteronomy’s legislation, although it provides timeless principles, its application is intended to be applied in a theocracy context. Capital punishment. Is America a theocracy? Should she kill or not kill?

SOURCE:
Wright, Christopher. Deuteronomy, New International Biblical Commentary, Peabody, Massachusetts, 1996, pg 166.

reformed

@C_M_ said:
Should there be no capital punishment or only under strict guidelines as below?

Exo. 23:7 -- No capital punishment based on circumstantial evidence.
Deu. 25:23 -- Not inflicting excessive corporal punishment.

It is necessary to remember that Deuteronomy’s legislation, although it provides timeless principles, its application is intended to be applied in a theocracy context. Capital punishment. Is America a theocracy? Should she kill or not kill?

SOURCE:
Wright, Christopher. Deuteronomy, New International Biblical Commentary, Peabody, Massachusetts, 1996, pg 166.

Capital punishment was instituted before the Israel Theocracy actually. It is a principle because man is made in the image of God. See Genesis 9:6

Jan

@reformed said:
Capital punishment was instituted before the Israel Theocracy actually. It is a principle because man is made in the image of God. See Genesis 9:6

But this was not the point. CM pointed out that God has prescribed very strict regulations to protect the defendant from false accusations, of which CM has pointed out only two.

Some more:

• absolute certainty of guilt was required, not only a certainty beyond a reasonable doubt (Deut. 17:4)
• conviction required two or more eye witnesses (Deut. 19:5)
• execution was to be done by the same eyewitnesses (Deut. 17:7)
• perjury in a murder case would also carry capital punishment as sentence (Deut. 19:6)
• cities of refuge would be established where perpetrators could claim asylum (Deut. 4:41)

Source: Feinberg, J. S., & Feinberg, P. D. (1993). Ethics for a Brave new world. Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books.

So far proponents of capital punishment have failed provide an explanation on why all of these regulations are completely ignored today by all countries that exercise capital punishment, including the USA.

reformed

@Jan said:

@reformed said:
Capital punishment was instituted before the Israel Theocracy actually. It is a principle because man is made in the image of God. See Genesis 9:6

But this was not the point. CM pointed out that God has prescribed very strict regulations to protect the defendant from false accusations, of which CM has pointed out only two.

Some more:

• absolute certainty of guilt was required, not only a certainty beyond a reasonable doubt (Deut. 17:4)
• conviction required two or more eye witnesses (Deut. 19:5)
• execution was to be done by the same eyewitnesses (Deut. 17:7)
• perjury in a murder case would also carry capital punishment as sentence (Deut. 19:6)
• cities of refuge would be established where perpetrators could claim asylum (Deut. 4:41)

Source: Feinberg, J. S., & Feinberg, P. D. (1993). Ethics for a Brave new world. Wheaton, IL: Crossway Books.

So far proponents of capital punishment have failed provide an explanation on why all of these regulations are completely ignored today by all countries that exercise capital punishment, including the USA.

We aren't debating regulations. We are debating whether there should or should not be capital punishment. The Bible is clear that there should.

Jan

@reformed said:

We aren't debating regulations. We are debating whether there should or should not be capital punishment. The Bible is clear that there should.

That's debatable as well, but I'm feeling gracious today, so I grant you that it does.
In that case, ignoring all those regulations turn capital punishment, as executed in the USA and other countries today, into a perversion of God's decree.

reformed

@Jan said:

@reformed said:

We aren't debating regulations. We are debating whether there should or should not be capital punishment. The Bible is clear that there should.

That's debatable as well, but I'm feeling gracious today, so I grant you that it does.
In that case, ignoring all those regulations turn capital punishment, as executed in the USA and other countries today, into a perversion of God's decree.

You can't even blanketly say that. Different states have different laws and regulations. So in actuality you would need to look at a state by state basis.

Jan

@reformed said:

You can't even blanketly say that. Different states have different laws and regulations. So in actuality you would need to look at a state by state basis.

Okay, so please name one state of your choice that executes the death penalty, and we can examine the regulations one by one.

Since, for example, I'm not aware of any city of refuge in the States, maybe it's only half a perversion of God's decree in individual states, and not a full perversion.

Therefore the question should be: Should a Christian Support State-Sponsored half-perversions of God's decree?

reformed

@Jan said:

@reformed said:

You can't even blanketly say that. Different states have different laws and regulations. So in actuality you would need to look at a state by state basis.

Okay, so please name one state of your choice that executes the death penalty, and we can examine the regulations one by one.

Since, for example, I'm not aware of any city of refuge in the States, maybe it's only half a perversion of God's decree in individual states, and not a full perversion.

Therefore the question should be: Should a Christian Support State-Sponsored half-perversions of God's decree?

Of course, the question of God's decree is this: Do we go by the references you cited or simply Gen 9:6? The references you cited are all to the governance of Ancient Israel. There is no reason to believe those are all also the governances of all governments going forward. So I think you jump ahead of yourself a little bit by declaring that is God's decrees for all governments of all time going forward.

C Mc

Thanks, Jan.

Also, please re-read my Posts (# 1,755, August 13), on page 1 of this thread.

Besides, the first biblical injunction against killing the human person appears in the book of Genesis in relation to the observation that every human being has been created in God’s image (Genesis 9:6). Peace ultimately involves the divine dimension. To achieve peace and to reconcile with one another brings about the recovery of the original divine imprint.

Genesis 9:6, states that it is a serious offense to destroy the life of another human being because a person is made in the image and reflect God. According to James 3:8-10, the sacredness of human life made in the image of God precludes not only violent actions against others but also harmful verbal expressions (see Davis below). Being made in God's image makes capital punishment an affront and unacceptable according to sacred scripture. CM

SOURCE:
-- Davis, John Jefferson. 1984. Abortion and the Christian. Phillipsburg, New Jersey: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co, pg 36.

reformed

@C_M_ said:
Thanks, Jan.

Also, please re-read my Posts (# 1,755, August 13), on page 1 of this thread.

Besides, the first biblical injunction against killing the human person appears in the book of Genesis in relation to the observation that every human being has been created in God’s image (Genesis 9:6). Peace ultimately involves the divine dimension. To achieve peace and to reconcile with one another brings about the recovery of the original divine imprint.

Genesis 9:6, states that it is a serious offense to destroy the life of another human being because a person is made in the image and reflect God. According to James 3:8-10, the sacredness of human life made in the image of God precludes not only violent actions against others but also harmful verbal expressions (see Davis below). Being made in God's image makes capital punishment an affront and unacceptable according to sacred scripture. CM

SOURCE:
-- Davis, John Jefferson. 1984. Abortion and the Christian. Phillipsburg, New Jersey: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co, pg 36.

Except Scripture called for capital punishment, therefore your interpretation is wrong.

C Mc

@Jan said:

@reformed said:

You can't even blanketly say that. Different states have different laws and regulations. So in actuality you would need to look at a state by state basis.

Okay, so please name one state of your choice that executes the death penalty, and we can examine the regulations one by one...

Key states that consistently and seems to enjoy killing people by means of executing the death penalty are FL, GA, AL, TX, and La. Did you notice they are the Southern States? CM

Jan

@reformed said:
Of course, the question of God's decree is this: Do we go by the references you cited or simply Gen 9:6? The references you cited are all to the governance of Ancient Israel. There is no reason to believe those are all also the governances of all governments going forward. So I think you jump ahead of yourself a little bit by declaring that is God's decrees for all governments of all time going forward.

So the question is: were defendants in the ancient Israelite theocracy worthier to be protected from false accusations and miscarriage of justice, than defendants in the USA today?

If you just go for Gen 9:6, that's pick & mix. Jesus came to fulfil all of the O.T. law, from Genesis to Deuteronomy.

Why would God want a minimal protection of defendants anyway?

Obviously, so that something like this would not happen:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_in_the_United_States

reformed

@Jan said:

@reformed said:
Of course, the question of God's decree is this: Do we go by the references you cited or simply Gen 9:6? The references you cited are all to the governance of Ancient Israel. There is no reason to believe those are all also the governances of all governments going forward. So I think you jump ahead of yourself a little bit by declaring that is God's decrees for all governments of all time going forward.

So the question is: were defendants in the ancient Israelite theocracy worthier to be protected from false accusations and miscarriage of justice, than defendants in the USA today?

If you just go for Gen 9:6, that's pick & mix. Jesus came to fulfil all of the O.T. law, from Genesis to Deuteronomy.

Why would God want a minimal protection of defendants anyway?

Obviously, so that something like this would not happen:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wrongful_convictions_in_the_United_States

Technically Gen. 9:6 is not part of the law. It is contained in the books of the law but is not part of the law that Christ came to fulfill.

Jan

@reformed said:
Technically Gen. 9:6 is not part of the law. It is contained in the books of the law but is not part of the law that Christ came to fulfill.

Why? It clearly is "a law". It's part of the books of the law, just part of a different covenant than most of the other laws in the books of the law.

Did Jesus say that he came to fulfil the law of Moses, or the law in general?

It does seem like special pleading to me.

C Mc

IN LIGHT OF THE SIXTH COMMANDMENT--

Offenses Punishable by Death in Old Testament Times -- Offenses which carried the death sentence under the theocracy:

• a. He that smiteth a man till he dies. Exodus 21:12.
• b. Cursing father or mother. Exodus 21:17.
• c. Owner of an ox who knows his ox to be dangerous but does not keep him in and the ox kills a person. Exodus 21:29.
• d. One with a familiar spirit a wizard, a witch. Exodus 22:18; Leviticus 20:27.
• e. Sacrificing unto any god but the Lord. Exodus 22:20.
• f. Whoever offered children to Molech* [See below notes on "Molech"]. Lev. 20:1-5.
• g. Adultery. Leviticus 20:10.
• h. Worshiping other gods. Deuteronomy 17:1-5.
• i. A stubborn and rebellious son, a glutton and a drunkard. Deuteronomy 21:18-21.
• j. Stealing a man and selling him. Deuteronomy 24:7.

There are also a few cases in the biblical legal collections in which the perpetrator of a crime that is considered to be particularly offensive to the deity is subject to both deaths by human hands and the divine penalty. In these instances, which are
rare, the combination of human and divine punishment is intended to be mutually re-enforcing. For example, Lev 20:2-5, in which the one who engages in the worship of Molech is both stoned by the community and suffers the divine penalty by the hand of the deity. In the case of violation of the Sabbath in Exod 31:14, if the person is caught, the punishment is both the death penalty (by human hand) and divine, while if the person is not caught, the punishment is only divine.

In conclusion, do we kill or not kill, that's the question? CM

Notes on Molech:

• In Punic circles, the technical term for the type of sacrifice usually involving an infant was called a mulk.* The Hebrew equivalent of this word occurs eight times in the Old Testament as molek (or molech—k and ch represent the same Hebrew letter). Prior to the discovery of the Punic steles by archeologists, it was thought that this was a god of the Ammonites, following 1 Kings 11:7.

• However, in the Punic steles, this word was definitely not a divinity. A glance at the parallel passages (1 Kings 11:5, 33; 2 Kings 23: 13) at once solves this predicament, for it is immediately seen that these verses state Milcom to be the god of the Ammonites.

• Thus, in the days before vowels were written (vowels were not written into Biblical texts until well after the time of Christ), a sloppy scribe mistranscribed mlkm simply as mlk, an easy mistake since mlk is not only the consonantal spelling involved in our word molek but also the spelling of the Hebrew word for "king" (melek). Thus 1 Kings 11:7 should have Milcom as the correct god of the Ammonites, not Molech. This leaves us with seven occurrences of the word molech, each of which is used in the context of child sacrifice.

• Unfortunately, the "pre-archeology" translators of the Bible did not know that there was a particular Canaanite sacrificial rite called a mulk (in He brew, molek), and so, taking the scribal error of 1 Kings 11:7 as a basis, they translated all the passages as if the child sacrifices were being offered to a god named Molech. Now, with the help of the understanding which archeological excavations have given us, we know that the phrases in question should be translated as in this example, "Any man . . . who gives any of his children for a molech-sacrifice shall be put to death" (Lev. 20:2).

SOURCES:
-- Wold, Donald J. “The Kareth Penalty in P: 1-6 and 20 in volume 1 of the SBL Seminar Papers, 1979. 2 vols. Missoula: Scholars Press, 1979.
-- Hasel, G.F. “t"rfK.” TDOT 7:339-352.
-- Levine, Baruch A. Leviticus. JPS Torah Commentary. Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society, 1989., pp 241-242