Alleged occupation of the Holy Land by Israel
Let me pick up another thread, where there was a comment about Israel's occupation of the land of Palestine.
I don't think that there is an occupation. The Jews have taken back rightful possession of their land.
Proof from the Old Testament, New Testament and the Qur'an.
Men—brothers and fathers—listen: The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was in Mesopotamia, before he settled in Haran, and said to him, ‘Go out from your land and from your relatives and come to the land that I will show you.’ Then he went out from the land of the Chaldeans and settled in Haran. And from there, after his father died, he caused him to move to this land in which you now live. And he did not give him an inheritance in it—not even a footstep—and he promised to give it to him for his possession, and to his descendants after him, although he did not have a child. Acts 7:2-5
When Abram was ninety-nine years old Yahweh appeared to Abram. And he said to him, “I am El-Shaddai; walk before me and be blameless so that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you exceedingly. And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land in which you are living as an alien, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting property. And I will be to them as God.” Genesis 17:1-2 and 8
Remember Moses said to his people: “O my people! Call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you, when He produced prophets among you, made you kings, and gave you what He had not given to any other among the peoples. “O my people! Enter the holy land which Allah hath assigned unto you, and turn not back ignominiously, for then will ye be overthrown, to your own ruin.” Surah 5:20-21
Among Muslims, it might not be the common interpretation, but it is in fact the interpretation of a small minority, and the Quranic text is pretty much straightforward on the question.
So where does the view come from that Israel would be an occupying force, if not from Jihadists who want to exterminate Israel from the map?
Comments
-
Interesting. Also take a look at this:
http://www.aish.com/h/iid/48891682.html -
@Jan said:
I don't think that there is an occupation. The Jews have taken back rightful possession of their land.Such an idea depends on a number of things/conditions ...
Proof from the Old Testament, New Testament and the Qur'an.
Men—brothers and fathers—listen: The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was in Mesopotamia, before he settled in Haran, and said to him, ‘Go out from your land and from your relatives and come to the land that I will show you.’ Then he went out from the land of the Chaldeans and settled in Haran. And from there, after his father died, he caused him to move to this land in which you now live. And he did not give him an inheritance in it—not even a footstep—and he promised to give it to him for his possession, and to his descendants after him, although he did not have a child. Acts 7:2-5
When Abram was ninety-nine years old Yahweh appeared to Abram. And he said to him, “I am El-Shaddai; walk before me and be blameless so that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you exceedingly. And I will give to you and to your offspring after you the land in which you are living as an alien, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting property. And I will be to them as God.” Genesis 17:1-2 and 8One point to consider: Are those Jews who have established a nation/country in the land of Palestine descendants of Abraham ("to you and to your offspring") or are they at large non-Jews by race who -- they or their ancestors -- converted to some form of "Judaism" religion? Subsequently, based on the clear statement in Scripture as to whom God made the promise, it seems non-scriptural that the modern day state of Israel has anything to do with Biblical Israel and the promises that were made to Abraham and his descendants.
Furthermore, when God set forth to Biblical Israel, the twelve tribes who were indeed descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) both the blessings of obedience/believing and the severe consequences of their disobedience/unbelief (e.g. cp Deu 4:27; Deu 28:64), God announced that they would lose the possession of the land and would be scattered among the nations and be left only few in number among the heathen, etc. The Lord Jesus himself prophesied (cp Mt 23:38) that due to their rejection of the Messiah "their house would be left unto them desolate" (=> that is, no nation "Israel" with temple, etc. would be ever re-established ... else Jesus' prophecy about "will be left desolate" would be false and Jesus turned into a false prophet).
When considering the overall scope of Scripture, it should be plain and clear that there is no Biblical evidence or grounds on which a "re-establishing" of an "Israel nation" can be based. Thus it is evident from Scripture, that what has happened in the 20th century in Palestine has NOTHING to do with Biblical prophecy, and actually we are witnessing how some Zionist religious cabal cleverly has falsely used "scripture" to usurp and eventually steal someone else's land to establish for themselves a "safe haven country", and they have done so by cleverly getting Christians to support their erroneous interpretation and greed for power and world dominion ... effectively using the "antisemitism racist bat" and financial hegemony to subdue anyone opposing them (even to the point of control over other countries ... )
So where does the view come from that Israel would be an occupying force, if not from Jihadists who want to exterminate Israel from the map?
For one, that view has been around a lot longer than "jihadists" ... Furthermore, current "Israel" politics and national behavior openly fans the flames and plainly shows that they are robbing and occupying a land they know does not belong to them.
-
God broke the unbelieving off from Israel in Romans 11. He will reattach any who accept Christ. Today's physical Jews are not biblical Jews, nor are they Biblical Israel. They are gentiles occupying Palestine and nothing more.
“For all the promises of God in him [Jesus] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20)
-
@Dave_L said:
God broke the unbelieving off from Israel in Romans 11. He will reattach any who accept Christ.Indeed ... after the rejection of the Messiah by the vast majority and heads of then natural Israel (the descendants of the 12 tribes) -- except for a small remnant (!) -- God still extends His mercy to all Israel in that any who accept the Messiah (that is, believe in Messiah Jesus) will be saved.
Israel with their disobedience and rejection of Messiah Jesus forfeited what God had promised on the premise of their obedience ... which was clearly seen by them being dispersed and scattered among the heathen after the destruction of the land and the city of Jerusalem and the earthly temple as fulfillment of the judgement prophesied (cp. Deu 4 & 28)
Today's physical Jews are not biblical Jews, nor are they Biblical Israel. They are gentiles occupying Palestine and nothing more.
Today it is actually impossible for anyone to even trace and prove that they are a descendant of the Biblical twelve tribes since there are no records etc kept anymore after the destruction of the temple. In addition, such natural biological descent has become irrelevant from God's perspective ... see above. Race and descent do not matter before God, rather any and all of whatever descent who believe in Christ (whether formerly Jew or Gentile) will be saved and have eternal life.
Based on the testimony of Scripture, those Jews living in Palestine forming the population of the modern day nation "Israel" can NOT be Biblical Israel nor make claim to any Biblical promise. By the way, official sources in Israel speak only of "Jew by religion" and not "Jew by descent" (!!!) The same actually is true of any Jews living in any other country in the world. Thus their constant "defense" scream about "antisemitism" is total nonsense when someone criticizes them for wrong doings (and you can be sure, they are not only doing good, or are they???? ) ... in fact, their treatment of people of Semitic decent screams to heaven as the worst antisemitism being practiced by anyone today
-
@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
God broke the unbelieving off from Israel in Romans 11. He will reattach any who accept Christ.Indeed ... after the rejection of the Messiah by the vast majority and heads of then natural Israel (the descendants of the 12 tribes) -- except for a small remnant (!) -- God still extends His mercy to all Israel in that any who accept the Messiah (that is, believe in Messiah Jesus) will be saved.
Israel with their disobedience and rejection of Messiah Jesus forfeited what God had promised on the premise of their obedience ... which was clearly seen by them being dispersed and scattered among the heathen after the destruction of the land and the city of Jerusalem and the earthly temple as fulfillment of the judgement prophesied (cp. Deu 4 & 28)
Today's physical Jews are not biblical Jews, nor are they Biblical Israel. They are gentiles occupying Palestine and nothing more.
Today it is actually impossible for anyone to even trace and prove that they are a descendant of the Biblical twelve tribes since there are no records etc kept anymore after the destruction of the temple. In addition, such natural biological descent has become irrelevant from God's perspective ... see above. Race and descent do not matter before God, rather any and all of whatever descent who believe in Christ (whether formerly Jew or Gentile) will be saved and have eternal life.
Based on the testimony of Scripture, those Jews living in Palestine forming the population of the modern day nation "Israel" can NOT be Biblical Israel nor make claim to any Biblical promise. By the way, official sources in Israel speak only of "Jew by religion" and not "Jew by descent" (!!!) The same actually is true of any Jews living in any other country in the world. Thus their constant "defense" scream about "antisemitism" is total nonsense when someone criticizes them for wrong doings (and you can be sure, they are not only doing good, or are they???? ) ... in fact, their treatment of people of Semitic decent screams to heaven as the worst antisemitism being practiced by anyone today
I believe this is true. But from the onset, Abraham's covenant seed were all foreigners, 300+ and their families, except for Ishmael. Circumcision, now abolished, made one Abraham's seed.
They have always been a religion and never a race. Any born of Abraham's blood was excommunicated from Israel if not circumcised.
-
@Dave_L said:
But from the onset, Abraham's covenant seed were all foreigners, 300+ and their families, except for Ishmael.???? Seems like you have your own definition of "seed", which in our context here is a reference to biological descent ... and I have not read anywhere of Abraham having had 300+ children ?
Circumcision, now abolished, made one Abraham's seed.
You are defining "seed" to your liking ... not a good idea. While circumcision did provide an entrance to covenant relationship, it did NOT make a person to be Abraham's seed.
They have always been a religion and never a race. Any born of Abraham's blood was excommunicated from Israel if not circumcised.
Yes, excommunicated from Israel in the sense of no longer being in the covenant relationship, but not excommunicated from being Abraham's seed.
-
@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
But from the onset, Abraham's covenant seed were all foreigners, 300+ and their families, except for Ishmael.???? Seems like you have your own definition of "seed", which in our context here is a reference to biological descent ... and I have not read anywhere of Abraham having had 300+ children ?
Circumcision, now abolished, made one Abraham's seed.
You are defining "seed" to your liking ... not a good idea. While circumcision did provide an entrance to covenant relationship, it did NOT make a person to be Abraham's seed.
They have always been a religion and never a race. Any born of Abraham's blood was excommunicated from Israel if not circumcised.
Yes, excommunicated from Israel in the sense of no longer being in the covenant relationship, but not excommunicated from being Abraham's seed.
If you study the history of the Jews in the bible, any not circumcised were cut off from the tribe. Originally the tribe amounted to Abraham's 300+ servants and Ishmael his only blood relative.
Jacob inherited all of these plus acquired more while serving his uncle Laban. Isaac inherited all of these plus acquired more servants along with his own children.
The number of Hebrews, also called Israel in Egypt needed the entire land of Goshen to live in.
They came out 400 years later a mixed multitude and continued that way, all considered Abraham's covenant seed through circumcision, not blood.
In Esther's day many became Jews after the slaughter of Haman's followers. And so on...
-
@Dave_L said:
If you study the history of the Jews in the bible, any not circumcised were cut off from the tribe.Not true .... cut off from covenant relationship, but not from tribe.
Originally the tribe amounted to Abraham's 300+ servants and Ishmael his only blood relative.
There is no tribe of Abraham spoken of in Scripture ... you are - once again - making your own definitions of terms.
Jacob inherited all of these plus acquired more while serving his uncle Laban. Isaac inherited all of these plus acquired more servants along with his own children.
??? .... how come there are only 12 tribes of Israel according to 12 bloodline sons ... and not 300+?
The number of Hebrews, also called Israel in Egypt needed the entire land of Goshen to live in.
Yes ... and ?
They came out 400 years later a mixed multitude and continued that way, all considered Abraham's covenant seed through circumcision, not blood.
There is no mention of a "covenant seed" in Scripture ... "seed" in the context refers to bloodline descendants, a "covenant" may have members from various blood lines, depending on the conditions of the covenant.
In Esther's day many became Jews after the slaughter of Haman's followers. And so on...
There may have been non-Israelites who joined Israel in covenant relationship, but that did not make them to be of Abraham's bloodline / seed.
-
Where are the two of you going with this? Land or no land, can't you admit, God has blessed the Jews? Israel wants to live in peace with its neighbors. If people would only admit that Israel has the right to exist. There will be peace. What do you want, push Israel into the sea? Blame Trump for cutting out medical care (by $25 million) to the Palestinians:
- Trump Administration Cuts $25 Million In Medical Aid To Palestinians Gabrielle Ware -- 7:54 AM, Sep 9, 2018
- The Trump administration is cutting $25 million in aid meant to help cover medical costs for Palestinians.
- The funds were for the East Jerusalem Hospital Network, which is made up of six hospitals that mostly provide care for Palestinians. The U.S. State Department announced it would end support on Saturday.
- The move is part of President Donald Trump's plan to pressure the Palestinian Authority into reaching a peace deal with Israel.
- In December, Trump decided to move the U.S. Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem from Tel Aviv, effectively recognizing Jerusalem as Israel's capital.
- The move was controversial because both Israelis and Palestinians claim Jerusalem as their capital.
- In response to the hospital aid cuts, the Palestinian Authority's minister for Jerusalem affairs said: "Let America know that all these acts will not change our position toward our cause one bit. On the contrary, it consolidates our positions toward every issue, including Jerusalem."
- Last month, the Trump administration said it would cut more than $200 million in aid to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.
Love Israel or leave her alone! CM
-
And I will take you from the nations, and I will gather you from all of the lands, and I will bring you to your land. Ez 36:24
This has happened already.
And I will sprinkle on you pure water, and you will be clean from all of your uncleanness, and I will cleanse you from all of your idols. And I will give a new heart to you, and a new spirit I will give into your inner parts, and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh, and I will give to you a heart of flesh. Ez 36:25-26
This has already started to happen. Israel is very slowly opening up to the Gospel.
And I will give my spirit into your inner parts, and I will make it so that you will go in my rules, and my regulations you will remember, and you will do them. And you will dwell in the land that I gave to your ancestors, and you will be to me as a people, and I will be to you as God. Ez 36:27-28
Future promise to Israel. This is not talking about the church as a replacement for Israel. Proof: the third temple of Ezekiel 40-41. We as a church do not need a temple, as Jesus is our temple.
Once Israel repents and turns to Jesus, however, they will be enabled to build a third physical temple, once again as a dwelling place for God's glory.
-
Trump is cutting off money earmarked for medicine in Palestine that is being diverted into terrorism against Isreal and the world. That is really, really smart. Not everyone is that smart.
-
By the way, this month's free book has lots of good stuff on the topic.
-
@Jan said:
By the way, this month's free book has lots of good stuff on the topic.Looking forward to reading that. I presume he would hold to a sort of modernized covenantal-dispensationalism? I made up that term. I think he calls it "promise theology" or “epangelicalism.” Sounds terribly interesting.
-
@GaoLu said:
Trump is cutting off money earmarked for medicine in Palestine that is being diverted into terrorism against Isreal and the world. That is really, really smart. Not everyone is that smart.This is utter NONSENSE! What proof you have for this propaganda? The children and mothers are going to be hurt? Does anyone care? CM
-
Genetically, Jews really are Jews - DNA Evidence:
-
@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
If you study the history of the Jews in the bible, any not circumcised were cut off from the tribe.Not true .... cut off from covenant relationship, but not from tribe.
Originally the tribe amounted to Abraham's 300+ servants and Ishmael his only blood relative.
There is no tribe of Abraham spoken of in Scripture ... you are - once again - making your own definitions of terms.
Jacob inherited all of these plus acquired more while serving his uncle Laban. Isaac inherited all of these plus acquired more servants along with his own children.
??? .... how come there are only 12 tribes of Israel according to 12 bloodline sons ... and not 300+?
The number of Hebrews, also called Israel in Egypt needed the entire land of Goshen to live in.
Yes ... and ?
They came out 400 years later a mixed multitude and continued that way, all considered Abraham's covenant seed through circumcision, not blood.
There is no mention of a "covenant seed" in Scripture ... "seed" in the context refers to bloodline descendants, a "covenant" may have members from various blood lines, depending on the conditions of the covenant.
In Esther's day many became Jews after the slaughter of Haman's followers. And so on...
There may have been non-Israelites who joined Israel in covenant relationship, but that did not make them to be of Abraham's bloodline / seed.
You could not be part of the tribe unless circumcised. You were considered a gentile (foreigner).
-
@C_M_ said:
@GaoLu said:
Trump is cutting off money earmarked for medicine in Palestine that is being diverted into terrorism against Isreal and the world. That is really, really smart. Not everyone is that smart.This is utter NONSENSE! What proof you have for this propaganda? The children and mothers are going to be hurt? Does anyone care? CM
Why should we be sending money to them at all? We have enough financial problems here.
-
@C_M_ I have a friend who is serving in Palestine as a physical therapist. At no cost to the Palestinians. A number of my friends support her financially (I am not presently).
What are you doing, personally, to help the children and mothers of Palestine?
-
@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
@GaoLu said:
Trump is cutting off money earmarked for medicine in Palestine that is being diverted into terrorism against Isreal and the world. That is really, really smart. Not everyone is that smart.This is utter NONSENSE! What proof you have for this propaganda? The children and mothers are going to be hurt? Does anyone care? CM
Why should we be sending money to them at all? We have enough financial problems here.
In a few words: Peace, women/children, and America can afford it. Didn't you say that the economy is doing very well? Mr. Trump, don't do it! Change your mind! CM
-
Please note the above and in your flurry of criticism of everyone else, I ask again, what you never fail to ignore: What are YOU personally doing?
-
@C_M_ said:
@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
@GaoLu said:
Trump is cutting off money earmarked for medicine in Palestine that is being diverted into terrorism against Isreal and the world. That is really, really smart. Not everyone is that smart.This is utter NONSENSE! What proof you have for this propaganda? The children and mothers are going to be hurt? Does anyone care? CM
Why should we be sending money to them at all? We have enough financial problems here.
In a few words: Peace, women/children, and America can afford it. Didn't you say that the economy is doing very well? Mr. Trump, don't do it! Change your mind! CM
How can America afford it? We are over 19 trillion in debt.....
-
@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
@GaoLu said:
Trump is cutting off money earmarked for medicine in Palestine that is being diverted into terrorism against Isreal and the world. That is really, really smart. Not everyone is that smart.
This is utter NONSENSE! What proof you have for this propaganda? The children and mothers are going to be hurt? Does anyone care? CM
Why should we be sending money to them at all? We have enough financial problems here.
In a few words: Peace, women/children, and America can afford it. Didn't you say that the economy is doing very well? Mr. Trump, don't do it! Change your mind! CM
How can America afford it? We are over 19 trillion in debt.....Oh, please, America doesn't care about the deficit. If so:
- Why request a military parade, estimated cost $90 million? Denied!
- Why demand to build a wall at the US Southern Border? est. billions?
- Why continue to fight undeclared wars around the world?
- Why give a big crazy tax cut to the richest people and corporations at the expenses of the lower and middle-class people? The tax cuts are not paid for -- Fake growth.
- Why take so many trips to Florida and NJ (excessive beyond vacations)? Millions!
- Why hold about 500 children from their parents -- marked for indefinitely?
- Why spend almost a billion dollars with the children/parents separation earlier this year?
- Why Mr. Trump put forth no concrete plans for America's Infrastructure as promised? This could have helped the economy.
@GaoLu said: "C_M_ I have a friend who is serving in Palestine as a physical therapist. At no cost to the Palestinians. A number of my friends support her financially (I am not presently)".
What are you doing, personally, to help the children and mothers of Palestine?- N/A (polite answer). I don't share your burden to help and tell ("seen of men", sorry).
- You have elected Mr. Trump as your president. Look to him.
- I am urging the President don't cut off the funds. America has the funds. Mr. Trump is just being mean and nasty. Your President is a poor negotiator. This is why he is cutting the funds, forcing the Palestinians to the table. Shameful tactics.
America under Trump... CM
-
@GaoLu said: "Please note the above and in your flurry of criticism of everyone else..."
Stop there!!! I am just holding up mirrors and connection a few dots of America and your President (who needs help, urgently). CM
-
@C_M_ said:
@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
@GaoLu said:
Trump is cutting off money earmarked for medicine in Palestine that is being diverted into terrorism against Isreal and the world. That is really, really smart. Not everyone is that smart.
This is utter NONSENSE! What proof you have for this propaganda? The children and mothers are going to be hurt? Does anyone care? CM
Why should we be sending money to them at all? We have enough financial problems here.
In a few words: Peace, women/children, and America can afford it. Didn't you say that the economy is doing very well? Mr. Trump, don't do it! Change your mind! CM
How can America afford it? We are over 19 trillion in debt.....Oh, please, America doesn't care about the deficit. If so:
- Why request a military parade, estimated cost $90 million? Denied!
- Why demand to build a wall at the US Southern Border? est. billions?
- Why continue to fight undeclared wars around the world?
- Why give a big crazy tax cut to the richest people and corporations at the expenses of the lower and middle-class people? The tax cuts are not paid for -- Fake growth.
- Why take so many trips to Florida and NJ (excessive beyond vacations)? Millions!
- Why hold about 500 children from their parents -- marked for indefinitely?
- Why spend almost a billion dollars with the children/parents separation earlier this year?
- Why Mr. Trump put forth no concrete plans for America's Infrastructure as promised? This could have helped the economy.
@GaoLu said: "C_M_ I have a friend who is serving in Palestine as a physical therapist. At no cost to the Palestinians. A number of my friends support her financially (I am not presently)".
What are you doing, personally, to help the children and mothers of Palestine?- N/A (polite answer). I don't share your burden to help and tell ("seen of men", sorry).
- You have elected Mr. Trump as your president. Look to him.
- I am urging the President don't cut off the funds. America has the funds. Mr. Trump is just being mean and nasty. Your President is a poor negotiator. This is why he is cutting the funds, forcing the Palestinians to the table. Shameful tactics.
America under Trump... CM
That is a long winded way to admit you are very unhappy, filled with bitterness, raging with criticism, angry at people actually doing something, a do-nothing windbag with nothing useful to do but play troll on internet forums. Got it.
-
@GaoLu said:
That is a long winded way to admit you are very unhappy, filled with bitterness, raging with criticism, angry at people actually doing something, a do-nothing windbag with nothing useful to do but play troll on internet forums. Got it.
GaoLu,
Forgive me, but this statement above sounds like an accurate description of yourself. I know you are angry, afraid, and embarrassed by Mr. Trump because you're so invested in him and his party. Hey, I tried to warn as well as help you. I know, it's hard. I encouraged you not to get so involved with political parties. Jesus is sure and everlasting. Be at peace! CMPS. I hope you would get over your paranoia of trolls. Let it go. CM
-
@C_M_ said: Forgive me
I forgive you.
Moving on, now...
Here are possible suggested boundaries that Israel will likely soon possess. In addition to whatever exact boundaries will be, Christ will eventually rule the World from the nation of Israel at Jerusalem. All that is a future you can depend on.
-
@GaoLu said:
Moving on, now...
Here are possible suggested boundaries that Israel will likely soon possess. In addition to whatever exact boundaries will be, Christ will eventually rule the World from the nation of Israel at Jerusalem. All that is a future you can depend on.Those usurper Zionists in the Anglo/Saxon Empire are quite successful into fooling and brainwashing Christians at large into thinking they as the real "exceptional" people have "a God given right" to rule the world and do so by establishing "the throne of David" and "greater Israel" .... of course without Christ (!!) Only, most likely those millions of Christians duped do not even realize that Christ has no place at all in the "Zionist Jewish" fantasies.
-
@Jan said:
Let me pick up another thread, where there was a comment about Israel's occupation of the land of Palestine.
I don't think that there is an occupation.Neither do I.
@Jan said:
By the way, this month's free book has lots of good stuff on the topic.Thank you for bringing this to my attention!!
-
The outline appears to be the same shape of South Carolina. Anything to this? CM
-
18 On that day Yahweh ⌊made⌋ a covenant with Abram saying, “To your offspring I will give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates river, 19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”
Gen 15,18–21The image seems about accurate, just that we don't know the exact territories of the Amorites etc.
However, what was allotted to the tribes by Joshua was much smaller, and covers Israel and some area of Jordan (Gilead etc.)
![[Deleted User]](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/fcddec765be35f238a0844bd23f54b59/?default=https%3A%2F%2Fvanillicon.com%2F8ce8323767a20f0f45db140c4cd2cea1_200.png&rating=g&size=200)
