If everything is determined is prayer meaningful?
Comments
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I am unable to follow your logic, so I don't know what to add that would be helpful.
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I'm asking if God can will not to be holy? Or will to be unwise? Or will to not have perfect knowledge after having it? By this I'm saying free will does not exist in God, and much less in the creature.
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I think we are asking foolish questions that bring into question the goodness and character of God. God is bound by no one or by any characteristic. What God does and is and declares good is what makes it so. You got your cart before your horse, which makes the whole thing look wrong.
Of course God has free will. Anything else is absurd.
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Just so you won't say I didn't answer your questions, here goes:
I'm asking if God can will not to be holy?
God can will anything He wants. He wills righteous things.
Or will to be unwise?
Of course He could. He won't.
Or will to not have perfect knowledge after having it?
Logically He can do anything if He is a god at all. Otherwise He isn't.
There is such a thing as foolish questions. Let me offer a couple more common examples
1. Can God make a rock so big he cannot pick it up?
2. Can God save a man so much that the man cannot be lost?Why foolish? Because they bring into question the character of God. God will do the right thing. Any question that doubts that is foolish.
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@GaoLu said:
I think we are asking foolish questions that bring into question the goodness and character of God. God is bound by no one or by any characteristic. What God does and is and declares good is what makes it so. You got your cart before your horse, which makes the whole thing look wrong.Of course God has free will. Anything else is absurd.
@GaoLu said:
Just so you won't say I didn't answer your questions, here goes:I'm asking if God can will not to be holy?
God can will anything He wants. He wills righteous things.
Or will to be unwise?
Of course He could. He won't.
Or will to not have perfect knowledge after having it?
Logically He can do anything if He is a god at all. Otherwise He isn't.
There is such a thing as foolish questions. Let me offer a couple more common examples
1. Can God make a rock so big he cannot pick it up?
2. Can God save a man so much that the man cannot be lost?Why foolish? Because they bring into question the character of God. God will do the right thing. Any question that doubts that is foolish.
Please consider that God and man can only choose according to their nature. But you cannot choose your nature. If you could, it would be your nature to do so.
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@Dave_L said:
Please consider that God and man can only choose according to their nature. But you cannot choose your nature. If you could, it would be your nature to do so.Nature is an outcome or description of what a person chooses, not some mechanical cause. God is not a robot any more than your imaginary robot people. God is good because He is not a robot and chooses good. He wants the same from His loved ones.
It is the nature of sinners to sin because they have a sin-nature, meaning it is their nature to sin. This ain't rocket science. Sin-nature isn't genetics. No, it isn't. I said NO! Did we get it from Adam? Yes. Adam had it. We have it and so far everyone in between. But we choose sin for ourselves just fine and Adam didn't make us do it. Stop passing the buck and take responsibility for yourself and your sin. Further, knock off denying faith that is real. Without real faith you can't please God. Your mockery of faith (as you describe it being forced on a person) is an offense to Christ and the Gospel.
I don't care that much if you want to be Covenental or Calvinist, Dispensationalist or Arminian, but get your fundamental theology right because you are seriously confused and in your case I think it matters.
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@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
Please consider that God and man can only choose according to their nature. But you cannot choose your nature. If you could, it would be your nature to do so.Nature is an outcome or description of what a person chooses, not some mechanical cause. God is not a robot any more than your imaginary robot people. God is good because He is not a robot and chooses good. He wants the same from His loved ones.
It is the nature of sinners to sin because they have a sin-nature, meaning it is their nature to sin. This ain't rocket science. Sin-nature isn't genetics. No, it isn't. I said NO! Did we get it from Adam? Yes. Adam had it. We have it and so far everyone in between. But we choose sin for ourselves just fine and Adam didn't make us do it. Stop passing the buck and take responsibility for yourself and your sin. Further, knock off denying faith that is real. Without real faith you can't please God. Your mockery of faith (as you describe it being forced on a person) is an offense to Christ and the Gospel.
I don't care that much if you want to be Covenental or Calvinist, Dispensationalist or Arminian, but get your fundamental theology right because you are seriously confused and in your case I think it matters.
Is God good because he chooses to be good? Or does he choose to be good because he is good?
If goodness was not his nature, how could he be good enough to will being good? If God willed any of his attributes, you make him a created being. And temporal at that. Time is created, eternity is not.
Your grasp is not on the God of the bible, but on something else entirely.
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I cannot see any logic to your comment. Can you try again?
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@GaoLu said:
I cannot see any logic to your comment. Can you try again?I asked: Is God good because he chooses to be good? Or does he choose to be good because he is good? We can further illustrate this by asking if a person is a thief because they steal? Or if they steal because they are by nature a thief?
Answer: Jesus says theft comes from the heart. It is in a person's nature to be a thief. " "for out of the heart comes..... murders, adultery, etc.
The converse is, God (Jesus) did not do these evil things because of his Holy nature. God (Jesus) chooses good because he is good.
The rest of your efforts to make God his own creator, by willing his perfections, introduces time into the Godhead. But God is eternal (without beginning or end, including all his perfections).
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@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
I cannot see any logic to your comment. Can you try again?I asked: Is God good because he chooses to be good? Or does he choose to be good because he is good? We can further illustrate this by asking if a person is a thief because they steal? Or if they steal because they are by nature a thief?
God has a nature to be a certain way because he chooses to be that way. I am sure that is far from a good description of God, but is surely better than making some idea God's master which is assuredly wrong.
A thief steals because he chooses to steal. He can choose not to steal. That one was easy.
It is my opinion that you are mixing up your verbs and nouns here and there which leads to theological schizophrenia.
Answer: Jesus says theft comes from the heart. It is in a person's nature to be a thief. " "for out of the heart comes..... murders, adultery, etc.
Aye. Jesus' words are true! You hit it spot on and I might have missed it! A person isn't a thief because they are a robot or programmed or genetically a thief. Like Jesus said, the choice comes right out of their own will and volition, from the heart, and they own their guilt and sin fully. Good point!
The converse is, God (Jesus) did not do these evil things because of his Holy nature. God (Jesus) chooses good because he is good.
That is up for theological grabs and I suspect is largely theological jargon used to obscure wild speculation. We could discuss for weeks whether Jesus could or could not have sinned and whether that meant in the present (then) tense or from a future perspective, etc., etc.
It is my opinion, and I see both sides and straddle the fence, that Jesus the man could have chosen to do other than He did. He chose of His own will to do right. That is a matter for volumes of debate and I don't intend to engage it further here in this thread even if you do.
The rest of your efforts to make God his own creator, by willing his perfections, introduces time into the Godhead.
Dave you invent impossible ideas and then attribute them to others. That is a very obvious logical fallacy. You have been informed of that so many times and don't seem to mind continuing to do so. How can anyone have a conversation like that? I won't take your bait. I don't think any of those things. They are your own wild imagination.
But God is eternal (without beginning or end, including all his perfections).
Amen.
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@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
I cannot see any logic to your comment. Can you try again?I asked: Is God good because he chooses to be good? Or does he choose to be good because he is good? We can further illustrate this by asking if a person is a thief because they steal? Or if they steal because they are by nature a thief?
God has a nature to be a certain way because he chooses to be that way. I am sure that is far from a good description of God, but is surely better than making some idea God's master which is assuredly wrong.
A thief steals because he chooses to steal. He can choose not to steal. That one was easy.
It is my opinion that you are mixing up your verbs and nouns here and there which leads to theological schizophrenia.
Answer: Jesus says theft comes from the heart. It is in a person's nature to be a thief. " "for out of the heart comes..... murders, adultery, etc.
Aye. Jesus' words are true! You hit it spot on and I might have missed it! A person isn't a thief because they are a robot or programmed or genetically a thief. Like Jesus said, the choice comes right out of their own will and volition, from the heart, and they own their guilt and sin fully. Good point!
The converse is, God (Jesus) did not do these evil things because of his Holy nature. God (Jesus) chooses good because he is good.
That is up for theological grabs and I suspect is largely theological jargon used to obscure wild speculation. We could discuss for weeks whether Jesus could or could not have sinned and whether that meant in the present (then) tense or from a future perspective, etc., etc.
It is my opinion, and I see both sides and straddle the fence, that Jesus the man could have chosen to do other than He did. He chose of His own will to do right. That is a matter for volumes of debate and I don't intend to engage it further here in this thread even if you do.
The rest of your efforts to make God his own creator, by willing his perfections, introduces time into the Godhead.
Dave you invent impossible ideas and then attribute them to others. That is a very obvious logical fallacy. You have been informed of that so many times and don't seem to mind continuing to do so. How can anyone have a conversation like that? I won't take your bait. I don't think any of those things. They are your own wild imagination.
But God is eternal (without beginning or end, including all his perfections).
Amen.
You say: "God has a nature to be a certain way because he chooses to be that way." = God is created and not eternal. Where did God get the wisdom to will anything if he did not already have it?
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What on earth does God having choice have to do with whether or not He was created? or eternal? What does wisdom or getting it have to do with will?
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@GaoLu said:
What on earth does God having choice have to do with whether or not He was created? or eternal? What does wisdom or getting it have to do with will?How does blind unknowing will power know enough to will anything? This is how you misrepresent God if you insist he willed his nature.
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How does blind unknowing will power know enough to will anything?
I am afraid I cannot answer that. I have no idea what it means. Actually, I am trying to be kind here, but I don't think it makes any sense.
God if you insist he willed his nature.
I am not sure that means either (if anything), but I will try to offer something of value in response: Nature in the sense we are discussing describes the characteristics of a being. The characteristics we are describing (such as love, mercy, kindness, judgment, purity, holiness, etc.) are all those having to do with free personal volition.
Dave, the God of the Bible is much greater and bigger and far better than you describe.
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@GaoLu said:
How does blind unknowing will power know enough to will anything?
I am afraid I cannot answer that. I have no idea what it means. Actually, I am trying to be kind here, but I don't think it makes any sense.
God if you insist he willed his nature.
I am not sure that means either (if anything), but I will try to offer something of value in response: Nature in the sense we are discussing describes the characteristics of a being. The characteristics we are describing (such as love, mercy, kindness, judgment, purity, holiness, etc.) are all those having to do with free personal volition.
Dave, the God of the Bible is much greater and bigger and far better than you describe.
You have serious flaws in your ideas about God. One, you make him created by willing his attributes. You introduce time into the Godhead saying God became more than what he started out as. This robs him of his eternality. You also deny his eternal perfections, saying he changed. Any change in his nature means he wasn't already perfect, or that he changed from perfection to imperfection. That is, if he wills to be perfect, it means he was not.
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How you arrive at your conclusions was once a mystery to me. Now...I am assuming distortion is intentional, so I am not going to bother.
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@GaoLu said:
How you arrive at your conclusions was once a mystery to me. Now...I am assuming distortion is intentional, so I am not going to bother.I'm only saying God does not change. This means his nature (perfect knowledge, perfect wisdom, perfect love, etc.) determined his will.
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@Mitchell said:
If everything is really determined/predestined/fated to happen beforehand is prayer meaningful?
Why? or Why not?CM ask:
-- I wonder, what type of prayers do you have in mind?
-- Are all prayers effective and meaningful?
-- Still, are all prayers answered?
-- Is the premise of your question valid, to start?If you have answered this somewhere, ok. In reading this old thread, I may have missed it. If not, share your thoughts. CM
