Faith/trust/believing - "blind" or "based on information"?
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It seems to me that for Christians of different denominational backgrounds, the term "faith/trust/believing (Gr. pistis)" are used quite differently with slightly different meanings. Quite often it is claimed that "to have faith/to believe/to trust" is what is necessary when one doesn't really know about someone or something ... almost as if "faith/trust/believing" were not needed in those cases where one has information about someone or something.
It seems to me that "faith/trust/believing" actually require first a basis information concerning someone or something, else how could one even have "faith/trust/believing" in that person or something to be believed/trusted ??
Rom 10,14-17
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed ? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher ?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent ? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Does this passage from Rom 10:14-17 not in detail clearly show the above mentioned principle, that "faith/trust/believing" requires a basis of some information? and that such differing ideas of essentially "blind faith" are unbiblical?
Comments
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@Wolfgang said:
It seems to me that for Christians of different denominational backgrounds, the term "faith/trust/believing (Gr. pistis)" are used quite differently with slightly different meanings. Quite often it is claimed that "to have faith/to believe/to trust" is what is necessary when one doesn't really know about someone or something ... almost as if "faith/trust/believing" were not needed in those cases where one has information about someone or something.It seems to me that "faith/trust/believing" actually require first a basis information concerning someone or something, else how could one even have "faith/trust/believing" in that person or something to be believed/trusted ??
Rom 10,14-17
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed ? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard ? and how shall they hear without a preacher ?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent ? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.Does this passage from Rom 10:14-17 not in detail clearly show the above mentioned principle, that "faith/trust/believing" requires a basis of some information? and that such differing ideas of essentially "blind faith" are unbiblical?
I think if we define faith as faithfulness, it is a characteristic of the born again nature before any might come into contact with the gospel. But the gospel even in Abel's and Abraham's day produced targeted saving faith in the true God and saved folks from idol worship.
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I think if we define faith as faithfulness,
Why would you do that?
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Faithfulness defines what James speaks of when he says faith without works is dead.
πίστις, εως, ἡ (Hes., Hdt.+; ranging in meaning from subjective confidence to objective basis for confidence).
① that which evokes trust and faith
ⓐ the state of being someone in whom confidence can be placed, faithfulness, reliability, fidelity, commitment
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 818). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
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Words and meanings matter to me. When a person juggles words and terms with abandon, communication becomes rather difficult.
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@Wolfgang said:
It seems to me that "faith/trust/believing" actually require first a basis information concerning someone or something, else how could one even have "faith/trust/believing" in that person or something to be believed/trusted ??
Yes, one has to have a prior knowledge, albeit small, but he or she must first hear to have faith. The four questions in Rom 10:14-15, to Paul, it appears that sinners must call on the Lord if they are to be saved. That's the reason for the series of questions. In short, both Jews and Gentiles must be evangelized. Everyone must hear and respond to the good news.
Faith includes facts and knowledge. However, it goes beyond human reasonings. Faith is in a person; not in just, a feeling or wishful thinking. Please note, "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen...." (Heb. 11:1).
Please read the rest of Hebrew chapter 11- "Faith's Hall of Fame."
In sum, faith is "a daily walk, not a leap into the dark." How do we get more faith? Next time. Only trust Him! CM
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@Dave_L said:
Faithfulness defines what James speaks of when he says faith without works is dead.On what is this assumption based?
Although in other context, the Gr. word "pistis" has the meaning of "faithfulness", I do not think that the statement in James "faith/believing without works is dead" is describing "faithfulness", nor does "faithfulness" define what James states.It seems to me that James is very simply emphasizing that "believing/faith" (which is an action of the mind, trusting, etc.) is "dead", that is, it brings about nothing, if the person does not follow up on their "faith/believing" conviction with appropriate action/"works".
@Dave_L said:
πίστις, εως, ἡ (Hes., Hdt.+; ranging in meaning from subjective confidence to objective basis for confidence).
① that which evokes trust and faith
ⓐ the state of being someone in whom confidence can be placed, faithfulness, reliability, fidelity, commitmen
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 818). Chicago: .University of Chicago Press.As for an example of a context where pistis would better be translated "faithfulness", I would point anyone's attention to the listing of fruit of the spirit in Gal 5:22 (as several Bible translations do translate it ...cp ASV, Luther [German Bible], etc ...
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@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
Faithfulness defines what James speaks of when he says faith without works is dead.On what is this assumption based?
Although in other context, the Gr. word "pistis" has the meaning of "faithfulness", I do not think that the statement in James "faith/believing without works is dead" is describing "faithfulness", nor does "faithfulness" define what James states.It seems to me that James is very simply emphasizing that "believing/faith" (which is an action of the mind, trusting, etc.) is "dead", that is, it brings about nothing, if the person does not follow up on their "faith/believing" conviction with appropriate action/"works".
@Dave_L said:
πίστις, εως, ἡ (Hes., Hdt.+; ranging in meaning from subjective confidence to objective basis for confidence).
① that which evokes trust and faith
ⓐ the state of being someone in whom confidence can be placed, faithfulness, reliability, fidelity, commitmen
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 818). Chicago: .University of Chicago Press.As for an example of a context where pistis would better be translated "faithfulness", I would point anyone's attention to the listing of fruit of the spirit in Gal 5:22 (as several Bible translations do translate it ...cp ASV, Luther [German Bible], etc ...
Isn't faithfulness faith in action?
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Faithfulness defines what James speaks of when he says faith without works is dead.
I would love to understand this logic. You may be on to something, but if so, it is slipping right past me.
I don't like playing eternal guessing games (sometimes I wish you would just shot straight) but I will try:
"Faithfulness without works is dead" Is that what you are saying James means?
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@GaoLu said:
Faithfulness defines what James speaks of when he says faith without works is dead.
I would love to understand this logic. You may be on to something, but if so, it is slipping right past me.
I don't like playing eternal guessing games (sometimes I wish you would just shot straight) but I will try:
"Faithfulness without works is dead" Is that what you are saying James means?
It is really simple. How do you know your dog trusts you? In this case trust = faith. You do not know he trust you until you see him wag his tail and follow you around. This is the dog's faithfulness to you. People always say a dog such as this is a faithful companion.
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Your example is colorful and good. Makes sense. It does not address my question, however. If the dog has faith it will behave faithfully. True. But that was not your argument.
Your argument, I think, that was that pistis means, not faith, but faithfulness--at least in some passages where it would better accommodate your theology. I argued that that was unlikely at least in the James passage.
There is no logic in the rendering: "Faithfulness without works is dead." Yet you turned the words back from faithfulness to faith and gave the excellent dog example.
So, make up your mind. Which way is it? (I am not giving it to you both ways)
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πίστις, εως, ἡ (Hes., Hdt.+; ranging in meaning from subjective confidence to objective basis for confidence).
① that which evokes trust and faith
ⓐ the state of being someone in whom confidence can be placed, faithfulness, reliability, fidelity, commitmentArndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 818). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
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OK. You found a word in a dictionary. Now apply it meaningfully to the passage.
We have been down this road before that every synonym or possible definition of a word can't just be plugged in higgledy piggledy into a passage even when it becomes non-sensical. The example you give above is just that. If not, show me how.
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@Dave_L said:
It is really simple. How do you know your dog trusts you? In this case trust = faith. You do not know he trust you until you see him wag his tail and follow you around.yes, I see the dog's believing, his trust in me in the various situations.
@Dave_L said:
This is the dog's faithfulness to you.Not necessarily ... "faithfulness" is the quality (but not an action) describing consistent, steady, repeated displays of trust, believing, etc.
I have plenty of experience with dogs ... and I know from experience how despite wagging his tail and doing in some situations, the dog may not quite be faithful, reliable, at all ... because in other situations he does not believe or trust me but rather does his own thing (especially when still rather young).
@Dave_L said:
People always say a dog such as this is a faithful companion.And I am pretty sure from my experience with dogs and people, that they are using the term "faithful companion" to describe not necessarily faithfulness in a sense of reliability behavior, but in terms of the dog "unconditionally - as free from prejudices - wanting to be with his human person".
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@GaoLu said:
OK. You found a word in a dictionary. Now apply it meaningfully to the passage.We have been down this road before that every synonym or possible definition of a word can't just be plugged in higgledy piggledy into a passage even when it becomes non-sensical. The example you give above is just that. If not, show me how.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,” (Galatians 5:22) NET
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22) KJV
31.88 πίστιςc, εως f: the state of being someone in whom complete confidence can be placed—‘trustworthiness, dependability, faithfulness.’ μὴ ἡ ἀπιστία αὐτῶν τὴν πίστιν τοῦ θεοῦ καταργήσει ‘that doesn’t mean that their lack of faithfulness annuls the faithfulness of God’ Ro 3:3.
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 376). New York: United Bible Societies.
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@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
It is really simple. How do you know your dog trusts you? In this case trust = faith. You do not know he trust you until you see him wag his tail and follow you around.yes, I see the dog's believing, his trust in me in the various situations.
@Dave_L said:
This is the dog's faithfulness to you.Not necessarily ... "faithfulness" is the quality (but not an action) describing consistent, steady, repeated displays of trust, believing, etc.
I have plenty of experience with dogs ... and I know from experience how despite wagging his tail and doing in some situations, the dog may not quite be faithful, reliable, at all ... because in other situations he does not believe or trust me but rather does his own thing (especially when still rather young).
@Dave_L said:
People always say a dog such as this is a faithful companion.And I am pretty sure from my experience with dogs and people, that they are using the term "faithful companion" to describe not necessarily faithfulness in a sense of reliability behavior, but in terms of the dog "unconditionally - as free from prejudices - wanting to be with his human person".
I'm saying people usually understand "faithfulness" as loyalty and trust. And so does the Bible which we are to preach in the vulgar tongue of the people we address.
