Two Tribulations?

[Deleted User]

@Dave_L said:

@Wolfgang said:
Since you mentioned earlier some points that supposedly prove your ideas, I would think that you can point out Scripture textual basis (hopefully with the relevant details pointed out) for your ideas?

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:” (Matthew 24:15–16) (KJV 1900)

Yes, and what does this have to do with a Jewish Great tribulation? Was Jesus speaking to (apostate) Jews and/or those Jews persecuting the Christians who believed on him as their Messiah? Or was Jesus speaking to disciples (Christians) specifically mentioning in this passage those believers living in Judea and Jerusalem to flee to the mountains? Also, who actually fled when it happened ... the Christians or the non-Christian apostate Jews?

“But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.” (1 Corinthians 14:24–25) (KJV 1900)

Now, what does this passage speaking specifically to the proper manner of conduct in a Christian assembly and thereby reproving misbehavior at the assembly at Corinth have to do with the topic at hand (the Great tribulation at the end of that OT age)?? My simple answer is: Nothing!

Dave_L

@Wolfgang said:

@Dave_L said:

@Wolfgang said:
Since you mentioned earlier some points that supposedly prove your ideas, I would think that you can point out Scripture textual basis (hopefully with the relevant details pointed out) for your ideas?

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:” (Matthew 24:15–16) (KJV 1900)

Yes, and what does this have to do with a Jewish Great tribulation? Was Jesus speaking to (apostate) Jews and/or those Jews persecuting the Christians who believed on him as their Messiah? Or was Jesus speaking to disciples (Christians) specifically mentioning in this passage those believers living in Judea and Jerusalem to flee to the mountains? Also, who actually fled when it happened ... the Christians or the non-Christian apostate Jews?

“But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.” (1 Corinthians 14:24–25) (KJV 1900)

Now, what does this passage speaking specifically to the proper manner of conduct in a Christian assembly and thereby reproving misbehavior at the assembly at Corinth have to do with the topic at hand (the Great tribulation at the end of that OT age)?? My simple answer is: Nothing!

Jesus told the disciples to leave town when they saw the signs leading up to the great tribulation. And not one believer remained as Jerusalem fell.

C Mc

@ CM said: For a better understanding of the conception of the Parousia in Matt 24, it is necessary to explore briefly some Old Testament theophany passages. The most important passage is that of the theophany on Mount Sinai, setting the pattern for many other theophanies (Exod 19:16-25 is the first occurrence of theophany unless one goes back to creation).

@ Wolfgang said: One must be careful not to "knit together" items which textually or contextually do not relate to each other. I am wondering with the above, is the parousia (coming, presence) of the son of Man spoken of by Jesus in Mt 24 something like a theophany? or is it not something different? Which characteristics of both would indicate such?

Parousia = "coming." There are two parallel terms in:

• Matt 24:14
• Matt 24:30

The term "Parousia," is the subject of the signs.

In the Gospels, the term Parousia is found only in Matt 24.

• Matthew uses it four times in chap. 24.

The term Parousia is the keyword in the main structure of Matt 24. It becomes clear how important this term is to understanding Matt 24 as a whole and 24:27-31 in particular.

The Four Parousia Passages in Matt 24

• I. The questions of the disciples (24:3)

• II. The answers of Jesus (24: 4-51)

  • A. The signs of the close of the age (4-26)
  • B. The signs of the Parousia (27-31)
  • C. The time of the close of the age (32-35)
  • D. The time of the Parousia (36-51).

The Apocalyptic literature written in Greek, the term Parousia is found only a few times use the term as the meaning of "presence." They used the term to describe the coming of God and most of these carry a non-eschatological meaning, with a few exceptions. In the LXX: 2 Macc 8:12; 15:21; 3 Macc 3:17.

The Book of Revelation was written after Matthew. Therefore, it can't be a source of Matt 24. It also reflects earlier aspects of the apocalyptic tradition. There is a relation between the Gospels and Revela­tion. However, there is striking similarity that exists between Matt 24:27-31 and Rev 1:7, in the motif of Christ coming on the clouds and that of the tribes' mourning, a pattern which does not occur elsewhere in the New Testament.

Rev 6 has been considered as an extended interpretation of the Olivet Discourse. John is following the pattern of wars, famine, and pestilence found in the Synoptic Apocalypse. Especially in the sixth seal (Rev 6:12-17), we notice a distinct parallel with the Matthean Parousia scene. Rev 6:12-13:

• "When he opened the sixth seal. . . . there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale."

The two chapters and has presented a strong case for the dependence of Rev 6 on the eschatological discourse. Rev 6 reproduces almost all the signs of Matt 24:

1. Gospel: Matt 24:14; (Rev 6:1, 2)
2. War: Matt 24:6, 7,10; Mark 13:7, 8, 12; Luke 21:9, 10, 16, 25; (Rev 6:5, 6).
3. Famine: Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11 (Rev 6:5, 6).
4. Pestilence: Luke 21:11 (Rev 6:7,8).
5. Persecution: Matt 24:9,10; Matt 10:17-22; Mark 13:9,11-13; Luke 21:12,16,17 (Rev 6:9-10).
6. Heavenly signs: Matt 24:29; Mark 13:24,25; Luke 21:25,26 (Rev 6:12,13).
7. Tribes mourn: Matt 24:30 (Rev 6:15-17)
8. Coming of the Son of Man: Matt 24:30; Mark 24:26; Luke 21:27 (Rev 6:17).

The 
term Parousia is NOT frequent in the New Testament

• It occurs twenty-four times

Of the 24 in the NT, "Parousia" is used only fourteen times in Paul's writings:

• Matt. 24:3, 27, 37, 39
• 1 Cor. 15:23; 16:17
• 2 Cor. 7: 6, 7; 10:10
• Phil. 1: 26 2:12
• 1 Thess. 2: 19; 3:13; 4:15; 5:23
• 2 Thess. 2: 1, 8, 9
• Jas 5:7, 8
• 2 Pet 1:16; 3:4, 12
• 1 John 2:28

Please note the "signs of the Parousia" [Matt 24:3, 27, 37, 39
]. Liddell viewed the word "Parousia" in Greek is that of presence, and by implication, arrival:

1. Presence, of persons
2. Arrival or visit, of a royal personage
3. Occasions
4. Official visit
5. In the NT, the Advent

The above is what the first-century Christians thought when they read the term Parousia in the Gospel of Matthew.

In the first-century language, the Parousia was above all the coming of a king and a feast for the people. A new era began in Greece with the Parousia of the Emperor.
 Matthew's use of the term Parousia four
times in a single chapter suggests that Matthew exhibits a joyful expectation of the event.

The earliest times the Old Testament speaks of the coming of God:

• The coming of God in direct self-attestation and in the cultus (Exod 20:24).
• The coming of God in history (Isa 19:1; 30:27).
• The coming of God as the world King (Deut 33:2, 26).
• The coming of the Messiah (Zech 9:9; Dan 7:13) [See 0epke].

---

A background to Matthew's use of Parousia. We need to look at the Old Testament theophanies. Matthew describes the second coming of Christ in theophanic language in Matt 24:27-31. T. F. Glasson points out how the motif of Parousia is deeply rooted in Old Testament theophany. He believed that many passages of the Old Testament declare that at some future time Yahweh will descend in glory from heaven to destroy His enemies or to judge the world: this Advent is in some cases preceded by tribulation and followed by the Lord's reign. He observes that these passages draw their imagery as a rule from the manifestation at Sinai, which may be described as the original Theophany.

The phenomena of theophanies of the Old Testament are of many different forms and kinds. A very rich and varied terminology gathers about the theophanies. The imagery and symbolism more impressive than in theophany [See Knight].

The term "theophany" is, not a biblical word. It derives from the Greek word "thophaneia", which is a compound of the noun "theos" and the verb "phanein" (to appear, to make manifest). There is no Hebrew equivalent for this term. God manifests Himself, and the Unknown One condescends to make Himself known.

• He comes.
• He appears
• He descends, and history is punctuated by the divine arrivals (see Eliade).

In his book Eliade has properly grasped their significance in the history of religion:

• "The God of Jewish people is no longer an Oriental divinity, creator of archetypal gestures, but a personality who ceaselessly intervenes in history, who reveals his will through events. Directly ordered by the will of Yahweh, history appears as a series of theophanies, negative or positive, each of which has its intrinsic value."

I hope this helps and put our discussion on better footing. Let's keep sharing. CM

SOURCES:

• -- Liddell, Henry George, and Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1992., 1343.
• -- Oepke, Albrecht. "parousia." Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Edited by Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich. Translated and edited by Geoffrey Bromiley. Grand Rapids, HI: W. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1964-1976. 5:858-71.
• -- Glasson, Thomas Francis. The Second Advent: The Origin of the New Testament Doctrine. London: Epworth Press, 1963. 167-87.
• -- Knight, George A. F. "Theophany." The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. 1987. 4:827-31.
• -- Eliade, Marcea. Cosmos and History: The Myth of the Eternal Return. Translated by W. R. Trask. New York: Harper & Row Publishers, 1959. pp 104-7.

PS. Wolfgang, your questions: 1). Is the parousia (coming, presence) of the son of Man spoken of by Jesus in Mt 24 something like a theophany? 2) Or is it not something different? 3). Which characteristics of both would indicate such? CM

[Deleted User]

@Dave_L said:

@Wolfgang said:

@Dave_L said:

@Wolfgang said:
Since you mentioned earlier some points that supposedly prove your ideas, I would think that you can point out Scripture textual basis (hopefully with the relevant details pointed out) for your ideas?

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:” (Matthew 24:15–16) (KJV 1900)

Yes, and what does this have to do with a Jewish Great tribulation? Was Jesus speaking to (apostate) Jews and/or those Jews persecuting the Christians who believed on him as their Messiah? Or was Jesus speaking to disciples (Christians) specifically mentioning in this passage those believers living in Judea and Jerusalem to flee to the mountains? Also, who actually fled when it happened ... the Christians or the non-Christian apostate Jews?

“But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.” (1 Corinthians 14:24–25) (KJV 1900)

Now, what does this passage speaking specifically to the proper manner of conduct in a Christian assembly and thereby reproving misbehavior at the assembly at Corinth have to do with the topic at hand (the Great tribulation at the end of that OT age)?? My simple answer is: Nothing!

>

Jesus told the disciples to leave town when they saw the signs leading up to the great tribulation. And not one believer remained as Jerusalem fell.

I have been saying this all along .... so what is your point? These Christians (followers of Jesus Christ) suffered great tribulation and escaped it with their lives because they remained faithful and adhered to Jesus' prophetic warning.

The prophecy of this great tribulation concerned Christians and not Jews ... another clear indication that there is only one great tribulation spoken of in all the NT writings.

[Deleted User]

@C_M_ said:
@ CM said: For a better understanding of the conception of the Parousia in Matt 24, it is necessary to explore briefly some Old Testament theophany passages. The most important passage is that of the theophany on Mount Sinai, setting the pattern for many other theophanies (Exod 19:16-25 is the first occurrence of theophany unless one goes back to creation).

@ Wolfgang said: One must be careful not to "knit together" items which textually or contextually do not relate to each other. I am wondering with the above, is the parousia (coming, presence) of the son of Man spoken of by Jesus in Mt 24 something like a theophany? or is it not something different? Which characteristics of both would indicate such?

>

... {a lot of info in the word parousia etc etc etc} ...

>

I hope this helps and put our discussion on better footing. Let's keep sharing. CM

Actually, those quotes on word meanings and contexts in which the respective words are used, do give a lot more information on various aspects regarding the Greek word and the ideas of the authors whose work you quoted.

SOURCES:

• -- Liddell, Henry George, and Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1992., 1343.
• -- Oepke, Albrecht. "parousia." Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Edited by Gerhard Kittel and Gerhard Friedrich. Translated and edited by Geoffrey Bromiley. Grand Rapids, HI: W. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1964-1976. 5:858-71.
• -- Glasson, Thomas Francis. The Second Advent: The Origin of the New Testament Doctrine. London: Epworth Press, 1963. 167-87.
• -- Knight, George A. F. "Theophany." The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. 1987. 4:827-31.
• -- Eliade, Marcea. Cosmos and History: The Myth of the Eternal Return. Translated by W. R. Trask. New York: Harper & Row Publishers, 1959. pp 104-7.

PS. Wolfgang, your questions: 1). Is the parousia (coming, presence) of the son of Man spoken of by Jesus in Mt 24 something like a theophany? 2) Or is it not something different? 3). Which characteristics of both would indicate such? CM

While I appreciate your time and effort in compiling the information from all those sources mentioned above on the word parousia etc., I am missing the answers to those questions I asked.

It seems to me like if I had asked whether the ABC Cooking pot was on the stove or not, you gave a wonderful explanation about what ABC cooking pots are, but did not really answer the question whether that wonderful pot was on the stove or not.

C Mc

@Wolfgang said:

While I appreciate your time and effort in compiling the information from all those sources mentioned above on the word parousia etc., I am missing the answers to those questions I asked.

1. Wolfgang, thanks for your acknowledgment of efforts put forth for change. One may desire what one wants of others, but at the end of the day, one can only change oneself. I am doing what I can in hopes that others would follow in haste. I am being the change I want others to be here in CD.
2. I know you're not hanging on for dear life, waiting for an answer, from me to your questions of which you probably know the answer already.
3. In the event you don't, I signaled to you the need to mine the passage in its context, keywords, themes, structure, genre, time and audience. In this case, "parousia" happened to be that word in this chapter. In view of its OT background, you may have concluded the answers to some of your questions.
4. If a proper foundation is laid with the overall view to read out of the text, you would be able to connect the dots for yourself. This approach can be helpful to all for a better understanding of the silent readers and potential new participants. I believe it will cut down on much of the misunderstandings, reading personal bias into the texts, and limit the "needless" back and forth and avoid spiritual nausea.
5. If CD is going to attract, enrich the understanding of viewers and users, and live up to its true potentials of being "second-to-none" in Christian discussions (Debate), more substantive content, in e-ink, must be displayed in our exchanges.
6. I, readily, acknowledged that everyone can't, won't, or have the time to do what I am doing or even go in the direction of where I am headed. However, I hold out the hope that some would duplicate it or set a standard that would exceed mine.
7. The Bible and its truth are too precious not to mine the depths of its bowels for the living of life in view of eternity.
8. One of the good things, CD has room to accommodate all. Everyone doesn't have to be the same or do the same thing, we just have to accept and appreciate the diversity of gifts, talents, time, and scholarship. CD's structure ensures this with its multiple menus.
9. My quest for CD is to be one of quality over quantity (people, the frequency of exchanges, or certitude fool-ology.

@ Wolfgang said: "It seems to me like if I had asked whether the ABC Cooking pot was on the stove or not, you gave a wonderful explanation about what ABC cooking pots are, but did not really answer the question whether that wonderful pot was on the stove or not".

As much as you felt I didn't answer your question (or at least, not directly), be assured, we're certain on the identity of the ABC Cooking pot, if for nothing else. Since your sublimed illustration is not as weighty as the message of Matt 24, and the pot wasn't boiling over, be patient with me.

When it comes to answering your questions...

"Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you've fed him for a lifetime."

Mining the Scriptures... CM

[Deleted User]

@C_M_ said:
3. In the event you don't, I signaled to you the need to mine the passage in its context, keywords, themes, structure, genre, time and audience. In this case, "parousia" happened to be that word in this chapter. In view of its OT background, you may have concluded the answers to some of your questions.

my simple point was this: "Theophanies" and "parousia" are different things, and as such OT passages of so-called theophanies are not really an OT background to the use and meaning of the word "coming {parousia}" in the NT passage mentioned.

4. If a proper foundation is laid with the overall view to read out of the text, you would be able to connect the dots for yourself. This approach can be helpful to all for a better understanding of the silent readers and potential new participants. I believe it will cut down on much of the misunderstandings, reading personal bias into the texts, and limit the "needless" back and forth and avoid spiritual nausea.

This will only be the case, if and when items are actually connected by topic, context, etc.

5. If CD is going to attract, enrich the understanding of viewers and users, and live up to its true potentials of being "second-to-none" in Christian discussions (Debate), more substantive content, in e-ink, must be displayed in our exchanges.

As far as I am concerned, I have provided detailed content in many posts and especially so in many replies to post where I even quoted the points and in detail answered to questions and points raised.

7. The Bible and its truth are too precious not to mine the depths of its bowels for the living of life in view of eternity.

Indeed ... that being my main reason to not fill my posts with theological commentaries and all kinds of extra-biblical material. Instead, I endeavor to stick with the actual text of Scripture, provide context from Scripture, give overall scope from Scripture, adding perhaps here and there language points as they relate to the Biblical text being studied.

"Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you've fed him for a lifetime."

I have endeavored to hold to this principle for many years and even decades ... Actually, many times I ask questions in replies to certain points raised by others rather than just stating a view, the intent is to encourage the other person to get their fishing gear out and catch that fish for themselves.