Does or can God have a God and a Father?
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Hi everyone,
reading along in the NASB95 translation; I noticed once again in Eph 1:3 and also in 2Co 1:3 that the text in these verses states that the Lord Jesus Christ has a "God and Father"
Eph 1:3 (NASB95)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
2Co 1:3 (NASB95)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
Now, please note ... these epistles speak of the risen and ascended Lord Jesus Christ, who is seated at the right hand of God, not about Jesus prior to his death. Trinity doctrine speaks of the ascended Christ as being GOD.
Some questions to consider in order to determine whether (a) the Scripture text is true, or (b) the Trinity doctrine is true. Does God or can God have a God above Him? How many Gods would that make? Does or can God even have a Father? Obviously, two contradicting positions can NOT both be true.
A note to @Dave_L (applicable to all): Please don't jump on your "you have to think spiritually" train.
Comments
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@Wolfgang said:
Hi everyone,reading along in the NASB95 translation; I noticed once again in Eph 1:3 and also in 2Co 1:3 that the text in these verses states that the Lord Jesus Christ has a "God and Father"
Eph 1:3 (NASB95)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,2Co 1:3 (NASB95)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,Now, please note ... these epistles speak of the risen and ascended Lord Jesus Christ, who is seated at the right hand of God, not about Jesus prior to his death. Trinity doctrine speaks of the ascended Christ as being GOD.
Some questions to consider in order to determine whether (a) the Scripture text is true, or (b) the Trinity doctrine is true. Does God or can God have a God above Him? How many Gods would that make? Does or can God even have a Father? Obviously, two contradicting positions can NOT both be true.
A note to @Dave_L (applicable to all): Please don't jump on your "you have to think spiritually" train.
You need to understand God does not change. Always Father, Always Son begotten of the Father (before the incarnation) and always Holy Spirit.
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@Dave_L said:
You need to understand God does not change.I do understand that quite well ... For this very reason, there can NOT be any "God became man", as that would constitute a change
Always Father
One can only be a Father from the time when there are children ...
Always Son begotten of the Father
God can NOT be anyone's son, for God cannot be begotten or have a Father
(before the incarnation)
this "limitation" itself go against your earlier "does not change"
and always Holy Spirit.
Indeed ... God has always been HOLY, and God has always been SPIRIT (which has nothing whatever to do with a "3rd God-Person Trinity"
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@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
You need to understand God does not change.I do understand that quite well ... For this very reason, there can NOT be any "God became man", as that would constitute a change
Always Father
One can only be a Father from the time when there are children ...
Always Son begotten of the Father
God can NOT be anyone's son, for God cannot be begotten or have a Father
(before the incarnation)
this "limitation" itself go against your earlier "does not change"
and always Holy Spirit.
Indeed ... God has always been HOLY, and God has always been SPIRIT (which has nothing whatever to do with a "3rd God-Person Trinity"
God cannot become a Father, or a Son, or a Holy Spirit since he is eternal. He eternally is The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all distinct persons in the one Spirit called God.
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@Dave_L said:
God cannot become a Father, or a Son, or a Holy Spirit since he is eternal.Your PREMISE is non-biblical ... because the God of the Bible is not a "3-God-Person Godhead/God Trinity". Such a construct was fabricated and then "cut in stone" as supposedly "Christian doctrine" at the councils of the 4th century AD.
He eternally is The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all distinct persons in the one Spirit called God.
"distinct persons IN the one Spirit called God" ... what is that supposed to mean? The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit each are a in a Spirit? What are you talking about?
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@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
God cannot become a Father, or a Son, or a Holy Spirit since he is eternal.Your PREMISE is non-biblical ... because the God of the Bible is not a "3-God-Person Godhead/God Trinity". Such a construct was fabricated and then "cut in stone" as supposedly "Christian doctrine" at the councils of the 4th century AD.
He eternally is The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all distinct persons in the one Spirit called God.
"distinct persons IN the one Spirit called God" ... what is that supposed to mean? The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit each are a in a Spirit? What are you talking about?
If you think of God spiritually instead of physically, you will see:
the doctrine of the Trinity can be summarized in seven statements. (1) There is only one God. (2) The Father is God. (3) The Son is God. (4) The Holy Spirit is God. (5) The Father is not the Son. (6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit. (7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
The Athanasian Creed puts it this way: “Now this is the catholic [universal] faith: That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons, nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit, still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.”
Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects monarchianism which believes in only one person (mono) and maintains that the Son and the Spirit subsists in the divine essence as impersonal attributes not distinct and divine Persons.
Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects modalism which believes that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are different names for the same God acting in different roles or manifestations (like the well-intentioned but misguided “water, vapor, ice” analogy).
Orthodox Trinitarianism rejects Arianism which denies the full deity of Christ.
And finally, orthodox Trinitarianism rejects all forms of tri-theism, which teach that the three members of the Godhead are, to quote a leading Mormon apologist, “three distinct Beings, three separate Gods.”
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@Dave_L said:
If you think of God spiritually instead of physically, you will see:Again ... PLEASE, @Dave_L , explain what you mean with "think spiritually" ... what does that mean? how does one do that? what is "thinking spiritually"? Is the mental process of thinking a different one from thinking some other way?
the doctrine of the Trinity can be summarized in seven statements. (1) There is only one God. (2) The Father is God. (3) The Son is God. (4) The Holy Spirit is God. (5) The Father is not the Son. (6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit. (7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
...
...This has been already shown to be a list of self-contradictory statements ( cp ... statements (2)-(4) contradict statement (1).
Just repeating your earlier (and already refuted) posts from another threat doesn't make anything better, @Dave_L ... only makes you look like a rebellious little kid who keeps insisting on its words to be true even when showed that they are not correct.
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@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
If you think of God spiritually instead of physically, you will see:Again ... PLEASE, @Dave_L , explain what you mean with "think spiritually" ... what does that mean? how does one do that? what is "thinking spiritually"? Is the mental process of thinking a different one from thinking some other way?
the doctrine of the Trinity can be summarized in seven statements. (1) There is only one God. (2) The Father is God. (3) The Son is God. (4) The Holy Spirit is God. (5) The Father is not the Son. (6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit. (7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
...
...This has been already shown to be a list of self-contradictory statements ( cp ... statements (2)-(4) contradict statement (1).
Just repeating your earlier (and already refuted) posts from another threat doesn't make anything better, @Dave_L ... only makes you look like a rebellious little kid who keeps insisting on its words to be true even when showed that they are not correct.
Nothing I said has been refuted since around 300 CE. Far more learned than any of us have tried and failed. We need to see why you and others with similar views were considered heretics by all of Christendom until present. It is for good reason.
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@Dave_L said:
Nothing I said has been refuted since around 300 CE. Far more learned than any of us have tried and failed.So you think .... just as the apostate Jewish leadership thought ...
We need to see why you and others with similar views were considered heretics by all of Christendom until present. It is for good reason.
Perhaps for the same reason the Jewish leadership considered Jesus to be a heretic and considered the first followers of Jesus to be a heresy and cult?
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@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
Nothing I said has been refuted since around 300 CE. Far more learned than any of us have tried and failed.So you think .... just as the apostate Jewish leadership thought ...
We need to see why you and others with similar views were considered heretics by all of Christendom until present. It is for good reason.
Perhaps for the same reason the Jewish leadership considered Jesus to be a heretic and considered the first followers of Jesus to be a heresy and cult?
I think you, in denying the trinity are more in line with Judaism and Islam. Christianity is the only religion in the world that worships God in trinity. The rest believe as you and they do.
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@Dave_L said:
I think you, in denying the trinity are more in line with Judaism and Islam.We have had that one before as well ...
Judaism and Islam are actually correct in regards to believing that only One Alone (rather than THREE either together or separate each) is God.
Judaism's error is in rejecting Jesus as the Messiah God has sent.
Islam's error is in having a different God from the God of the Bible as their one God.Christianity is the only religion in the world that worships God in trinity. The rest believe as you and they do.
Careful ... indeed, most of so-called organized Christian denominational Christendom worships a THREE Person Trio as their God. There has been and is even today a comparatively small remnant who hold to the Biblical truth that the God of the Bible is NOT three "persons" but only one person => the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator, the Almighty, the Ancient of Days, the Holy One of Israel, the Holy Spirit, who is YHWH by name.
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@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
I think you, in denying the trinity are more in line with Judaism and Islam.We have had that one before as well ...
Judaism and Islam are actually correct in regards to believing that only One Alone (rather than THREE either together or separate each) is God.
Judaism's error is in rejecting Jesus as the Messiah God has sent.
Islam's error is in having a different God from the God of the Bible as their one God.Christianity is the only religion in the world that worships God in trinity. The rest believe as you and they do.
Careful ... indeed, most of so-called organized Christian denominational Christendom worships a THREE Person Trio as their God. There has been and is even today a comparatively small remnant who hold to the Biblical truth that the God of the Bible is NOT three "persons" but only one person => the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Creator, the Almighty, the Ancient of Days, the Holy One of Israel, the Holy Spirit, who is YHWH by name.
Like I said, you are closer to Islam and Judaism than you are to Christianity which is the only religion to worship God in trinity.
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@Wolfgang said:
Some questions to consider in order to determine whether (a) the Scripture text is true, or (b) the Trinity doctrine is true. Does God or can God have a God above Him? How many Gods would that make? Does or can God even have a Father? Obviously, two contradicting positions can NOT both be true.The United States of America has one President, who is a son, husband, and father.
What is a father's role in a family ? What does a son do ?
Questions to consider includes presupposition: (a) or (b) is true. The use of "or" implies only one being true. Another alternative is both (a) and (b) are true.
Humanly Thankful for one awesome God who has three intelligent persona's that glorify each other: (brief summary)
- Father sets direction (knows date & time when Jesus will return physically to earth)
- Son's Holy Blood sacrifice provided a Loving way for every sinner to become Holy
- Spirit teaches Truth and Righteousness plus convicts of sin (also does mighty miracles)
Literally confessing (calling) my sin the same as God sees it allows God's Holy blood to wash my mess away, which allows me to become Holy like the one True God
Thankful for author and finisher of Faith placing daily reminders of Sunrise and Sunset (between East and West) about God's Holy Blood sacrifice
Without shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins. God's plan of Holy redemption was designed before world existed. Trinity describes three spiritual aspects of one True Loving God.Thankful God provides a way for us to know Him: ask God to open our eyes so we can behold His Wonders. Psalm 119:18
@Wolfgang said:
Please don't jump on your "you have to think spiritually" train.Convex corollary is choosing to interpret scripture figuratively when can literally be true. For example, denying diety of Jesus prevents seeing Jesus as God in many scriptures. Matthew 26:59-68 includes Caiaphas dramatically calling Jesus a liar (blasphemer) by tearing his robe after Jesus answered truthfully. Yet Caiaphas' unbelief was part of God's Holy plan for redemption from sin. Crucifixion fulfilled many prophecies written centuries earlier that include Psalm 22 & Isaiah 52:13-53:12
Keep Smiling
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
@Wolfgang said:
Some questions to consider in order to determine whether (a) the Scripture text is true, or (b) the Trinity doctrine is true. Does God or can God have a God above Him? How many Gods would that make? Does or can God even have a Father? Obviously, two contradicting positions can NOT both be true.The United States of America has one President, who is a son, husband, and father.
Is that president his own son? his own father? his own husband?
What is a father's role in a family ? What does a son do ?
So then, are "Creator", "Almighty", "Holy One of Israel", "Ancient of Days" further God-Persons in that Multi-Person Godhead "Multinity" ??
Questions to consider includes presupposition: (a) or (b) is true. The use of "or" implies only one being true. Another alternative is both (a) and (b) are true.
Contradictory points can NOT be both true.
@Wolfgang said:
Please don't jump on your "you have to think spiritually" train.Convex corollary is choosing to interpret scripture figuratively when can literally be true. For example, denying diety of Jesus prevents seeing Jesus as God in many scriptures.
Assuming a theology and interpreting Scripture to "support" such assumption is not leading to truth...
Matthew 26:59-68 includes Caiaphas dramatically calling Jesus a liar (blasphemer) by tearing his robe after Jesus answered truthfully. Yet Caiaphas' unbelief was part of God's Holy plan for redemption from sin. Crucifixion fulfilled many prophecies written centuries earlier that include Psalm 22 & Isaiah 52:13-53:12
?? are you trying to tell us that Jesus answered Caiaphas that he was God ? are you perhaps incorrectly reading what Caiaphas asked? Does your Bible read differently from the ones I have been reading ?
Keep Smiling
Instead of keeping smiling you might give your study of Scripture a bit more serious note ..
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@Wolfgang said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
@Wolfgang said:
Some questions to consider in order to determine whether (a) the Scripture text is true, or (b) the Trinity doctrine is true. Does God or can God have a God above Him? How many Gods would that make? Does or can God even have a Father? Obviously, two contradicting positions can NOT both be true.The United States of America has one President, who is a son, husband, and father.
Is that president his own son? his own father? his own husband?
President Donald Trump is the son of Fred Trump & Mary Anne MacLeod; currently married to his third wife: Melania Knauss; and father of five children: Donald Jr, Ivanka, Eric, Tiffany, Barron.
What is a father's role in a family ? What does a son do ?
So then, are "Creator", "Almighty", "Holy One of Israel", "Ancient of Days" further God-Persons in that Multi-Person Godhead "Multinity" ??
?? "Multinity" is not an entry in many of my dictionaries ??
Phrase "like father, like son" has an intriguing amount of truth as children reflect behavior of their parents. Every human alive has a father so can relate to descriptive terms father and son for relationship. Caveat: a number of fathers have provoked their children to anger so can be difficult to seek/appreciate God's wonderful Love.Questions to consider includes presupposition: (a) or (b) is true. The use of "or" implies only one being true. Another alternative is both (a) and (b) are true.
Contradictory points can NOT be both true.
From your perspective, points (a) and (b) are contradictory while my view is (a) and (b) are complementary.
@Wolfgang said:
Please don't jump on your "you have to think spiritually" train.Convex corollary is choosing to interpret scripture figuratively when can literally be true. For example, denying diety of Jesus prevents seeing Jesus as God in many scriptures.
Assuming a theology and interpreting Scripture to "support" such assumption is not leading to truth...
Concur assumptions can be a basis for eisegesis (read into text assumed beliefs). Denying diety of Jesus prevents recognizing Jesus as God in scripture text. Revelation 22:13 includes Jesus saying: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." while Isaiah 44:6 includes God saying "I am the First and I am the Last; apart from me there is no God."
Matthew 26:59-68 includes Caiaphas dramatically calling Jesus a liar (blasphemer) by tearing his robe after Jesus answered truthfully. Yet Caiaphas' unbelief was part of God's Holy plan for redemption from sin. Crucifixion fulfilled many prophecies written centuries earlier that include Psalm 22 & Isaiah 52:13-53:12
?? are you trying to tell us that Jesus answered Caiaphas that he was God ? are you perhaps incorrectly reading what Caiaphas asked? Does your Bible read differently from the ones I have been reading ?
Yes: Caiaphas was seeking a reason for the death penalty. False witnesses failed to provide reason. Truthful reply by Jesus, a Jew, to the Jewish High Priest provided Caiaphas a legal reason for death penalty: blasphemy for a man declaring himself to be God (using Jewish terminology). Caiaphas refused to believe truthful diety claim by Jesus so wanted Jesus put to death according to Jewish law for blasphemy.
Keep Smiling
Instead of keeping smiling you might give your study of Scripture a bit more serious note ..
Learning Greek provides new meaning for phrase "that's Greek to me" since can read parts of Bible (LXX & NT) while other parts are Greek. Thankful for visual filter highlighting in Logos Bible Software so can "see" range of Greek verbal expression plus pray to God for understanding. A number of biblical authors assume Jewish cultural understanding: e.g. Matthew begins with Jewish legal lineage of Jesus (shows Joseph was a descendant of King David and Solomon). John 7:37 includes phrase "last day of the festival" without explanation of immense Joy at the second temple for drink offering (with reference to Isaiah 12).
By the way, Keep Smiling reflects Philippians 4:4 (plus have cried many times while so know Joy of The Lord does not depend on circumstances).
Keep Smiling -
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
@Wolfgang said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
The United States of America has one President, who is a son, husband, and father.Is that president his own son? his own father? his own husband?
President Donald Trump is the son of Fred Trump & Mary Anne MacLeod; currently married to his third wife: Melania Knauss; and father of five children: Donald Jr, Ivanka, Eric, Tiffany, Barron.
I did know those facts ...
... point is, they don't make your illustration applicable to God. Your "president" is still only ONE person ... father, son and husband are NOT three persons of one president, are they??
Actually, your idea would illustrate nicely that there is only ONE God-person, who is known as "the Father", "the Holy Spirit", "the Creator", the Ancient of Days", "the HolyOne of Israel", etc... However, please note very carefully => God is not "a Son", because God can NOT have a Father or Mother!!What is a father's role in a family ? What does a son do ?
So then, are "Creator", "Almighty", "Holy One of Israel", "Ancient of Days" further God-Persons in that Multi-Person Godhead "Multinity" ??
?? "Multinity" is not an entry in many of my dictionaries ??
Of course not ... I took the liberty to adjust "Tri-nity" (with supposedly 3 persons) to "Multi-nity" if there were supposedly more persons ...
Phrase "like father, like son" has an intriguing amount of truth as children reflect behavior of their parents. Every human alive has a father so can relate to descriptive terms father and son for relationship. Caveat: a number of fathers have provoked their children to anger so can be difficult to seek/appreciate God's wonderful Love.
Actually, the man Christ Jesus, due to his perfect obedience to his Father, God, very much reflected God in what he spoke and what he did. Remember Jesus' words, "He, who has seen me, has seen the Father?"
Questions to consider includes presupposition: (a) or (b) is true. The use of "or" implies only one being true. Another alternative is both (a) and (b) are true.
Contradictory points can NOT be both true.
From your perspective, points (a) and (b) are contradictory while my view is (a) and (b) are complementary.
God is NOT a man, nor can a man be God; furthermore Jesus is a man. To then claim that Jesus IS God would not be a complimentary statement but rather a contradictory statement and therefore either "Jesus is God" or else "Jesus is a man" is not true.
Concur assumptions can be a basis for eisegesis (read into text assumed beliefs). Denying diety of Jesus prevents recognizing Jesus as God in scripture text.
The truth is, there is no scripture text which has Jesus as God ...
Revelation 22:13 includes Jesus saying: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." while Isaiah 44:6 includes God saying "I am the First and I am the Last; apart from me there is no God."
"First and last" is a Hebrew idiom to denote "only one" ... and then context must determine in which regard the "first and last" person is the only one. YHWH, Jesus' father, the Creator, the Almighty, etc is indeed THE ONLY God ...and Jesus himself affirmed this truth in John 17:3. The man Jesus is the only one in a different matter, he is the only true Messiah.
?? are you trying to tell us that Jesus answered Caiaphas that he was God ? are you perhaps incorrectly reading what Caiaphas asked? Does your Bible read differently from the ones I have been reading ?
Yes: Caiaphas was seeking a reason for the death penalty. False witnesses failed to provide reason. Truthful reply by Jesus, a Jew, to the Jewish High Priest provided Caiaphas a legal reason for death penalty: blasphemy for a man declaring himself to be God (using Jewish terminology).
But Jesus did NOT declare himself to be God, and his accusers did NOT accuse or declare Jesus to be God or to have claimed to be God !!!
Can you read ?? "Son of God" is NOT the same as "God", is it? "God the Son" does not even occur in the Bible anywhere ...Caiaphas refused to believe truthful diety claim by Jesus so wanted Jesus put to death according to Jewish law for blasphemy.
NO ... the blasphemy in the eyes and accusations of the Jews was that Jesus claimed to be the promised Messiah, that son of Abraham and son of David, and as Messiah God's only begotten Son.
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@Wolfgang said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
@Wolfgang said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
Questions to consider includes presupposition: (a) or (b) is true. The use of "or" implies only one being true. Another alternative is both (a) and (b) are true.Contradictory points can NOT be both true.
From your perspective, points (a) and (b) are contradictory while my view is (a) and (b) are complementary.
God is NOT a man, nor can a man be God; furthermore Jesus is a man. To then claim that Jesus IS God would not be a complimentary statement but rather a contradictory statement and therefore either "Jesus is God" or else "Jesus is a man" is not true.
Concur assumptions can be a basis for eisegesis (read into text assumed beliefs). Denying diety of Jesus prevents recognizing Jesus as God in scripture text.
The truth is, there is no scripture text which has Jesus as God ...
Gospel of John has many "I AM" sayings by Jesus. Greek verb εἰμι can be translated "I am" while Jesus also used first person pronoun Ἐγώ to emphasize I AM God Almighty in Holy human flesh. The man Jesus used the Name of God in reference to himself (God's name had been given to Moses at the burning bush in Exodus 3). John 10:22-42 includes Jewish reaction to Jesus saying "ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν" = "I and The Father are one" so Jews picked up stones to kill Jesus because of blasphemy. Jews heard and understood Jesus = God.
?? are you trying to tell us that Jesus answered Caiaphas that he was God ? are you perhaps incorrectly reading what Caiaphas asked? Does your Bible read differently from the ones I have been reading ?
Yes: Caiaphas was seeking a reason for the death penalty. False witnesses failed to provide reason. Truthful reply by Jesus, a Jew, to the Jewish High Priest provided Caiaphas a legal reason for death penalty: blasphemy for a man declaring himself to be God (using Jewish terminology).
But Jesus did NOT declare himself to be God, and his accusers did NOT accuse or declare Jesus to be God or to have claimed to be God !!!
Can you read ?? "Son of God" is NOT the same as "God", is it? "God the Son" does not even occur in the Bible anywhere ...Caiaphas refused to believe truthful diety claim by Jesus so wanted Jesus put to death according to Jewish law for blasphemy.
NO ... the blasphemy in the eyes and accusations of the Jews was that Jesus claimed to be the promised Messiah, that son of Abraham and son of David, and as Messiah God's only begotten Son.
Jesus truthfully answered Caiaphas by referring to two scriptures Psalm 110:1 and Daniel 7:13 Caiaphas understood what Jesus said about being eternal God in human flesh and cried out "Blasphemy !" Both Psalm 110 and Daniel 7 include prophecies yet to be fulfilled.
Sermon on the Mount includes a sad statement by Jesus in Matthew 7:23 with reference to the last few verses of Psalm 6. Not knowing Jesus personally provides the One True God reason to send workers of lawlessness (sinners) to a permanent place of torment (lake of fire). Like God, personally have no desire for anyone to experience eternal torment that lacks Holy Love of God. Am praying for you (plus many more people) for God to send dreams, visions, and open eyes so we can recognize God, which allows each person to choose repentance (turning) from their sins, asking God for forgiveness with cleansing from unrighteousness so we can truly Love God (and one another).
John 14:6 Jesus answered: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No comes to the Father except through me." If Jesus was only a man, how can we have a personal relationship with him in God's truth for eternal life ? Jesus began His answer in John 14:6 by using God's Name to refer to Himself. Knowing God personally, especially Jesus, is different than knowing about God (with theological assumptions). True encounter with Jesus changes how to live (since now have eternal God living inside). Thankful for God's immense Holy Loving presence so want to imitate God, to be Holy as God is Holy Thankful Ephesians 5:18-20 includes being filled with the Holy Spirit so my heart sings and Praises my Lord God and King many times every day Thankful to be a tall two year old child of God who is living and learning more of God's Love 
Keep Smiling -
To come back to the original post ... how can God have a Father God and there only be one God? Can God (such as when you claim Jesus=God) even have a Father? One God (God the Son) has another God (God the Father) as his Father???
Doesn't anyone here notice how illogical and nonsensical the Trinity fantasy is?? -
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
The United States of America has one President, who is a son, husband, and father.
President Donald Trump is the son of Fred Trump & Mary Anne MacLeod; currently married to his third wife: Melania Knauss; and father of five children: Donald Jr, Ivanka, Eric, Tiffany, Barron.The fact that Donald Trump is father TO his children in no way suggests that he IS his children (or that his children are him!) any more than does the fact that he is husband TO Melania mean that he IS Melania (or that Melania is him). In truth, the fact that Mr Trump is father to his children by definition means that the president is NOT his children and vice versa.
That in the Gospels Jesus claims to have a God (Matthew 27.46; John 20.17) - a connection supported at least twice in Revelation (Revelation 1.6; 21.6) - suggests strongly that he (Jesus) believed that he was not God. One who IS God cannot have a God unless there is more than one God, an option Jesus specifically rejected - Mark 12.29.
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@Wolfgang said:
To come back to the original post ... how can God have a Father God and there only be one God? Can God (such as when you claim Jesus=God) even have a Father? One God (God the Son) has another God (God the Father) as his Father???
Doesn't anyone here notice how illogical and nonsensical the Trinity fantasy is??What is your understanding of Matthew 22:41-45 ? How could the Messiah (Christ) be both Lord אָדוֹן and David's Son ?
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
“ ‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.” ’
If then David calls him ‘Lord’, how can he be his son?”Keep Smiling
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
@Wolfgang said:
To come back to the original post ... how can God have a Father God and there only be one God? Can God (such as when you claim Jesus=God) even have a Father? One God (God the Son) has another God (God the Father) as his Father???
Doesn't anyone here notice how illogical and nonsensical the Trinity fantasy is??What is your understanding of Matthew 22:41-45 ? How could the Messiah (Christ) be both Lord אָדוֹן and David's Son ?
I should refuse to answer your question until you answer the questions you were asked first ...
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.
He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,
“ ‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.” ’
If then David calls him ‘Lord’, how can he be his son?”So then, according to your idea, since David mentioned TWO Lords, David actually spoke of TWO Gods there ?? Or could it be, that your Trinity influenced idea about is false and David must have meant something different, since he did not believe in multiple Gods?
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@Bill_Coley said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
The United States of America has one President, who is a son, husband, and father.
President Donald Trump is the son of Fred Trump & Mary Anne MacLeod; currently married to his third wife: Melania Knauss; and father of five children: Donald Jr, Ivanka, Eric, Tiffany, Barron.The fact that Donald Trump is father TO his children in no way suggests that he IS his children (or that his children are him!) any more than does the fact that he is husband TO Melania mean that he IS Melania (or that Melania is him). In truth, the fact that Mr Trump is father to his children by definition means that the president is NOT his children and vice versa.
I am waiting to read what @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus will comment on your clarification showing that his idea of a "Trinity" illustration is quite obviously incorrect.
That in the Gospels Jesus claims to have a God (Matthew 27.46; John 20.17) - a connection supported at least twice in Revelation (Revelation 1.6; 21.6) - suggests strongly that he (Jesus) believed that he was not God. One who IS God cannot have a God unless there is more than one God, an option Jesus specifically rejected - Mark 12.29.
I agree !
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Thankful for this discussion that is helping me appreciate more of God's Love
Augustine is correct that the New Testament is in the Old concealed while the Old Testament is in the New revealed.
Psalm 110 shows One True Triune God: Holy Spirit inspired David to write "The Lord (God the Father) said to my Lord (God the Son)" over 3,000 years ago. A similar prophetic passage is Jeremiah 23:5-6
“The days are coming,” says יהוהADONAI
when I will raise a righteous Branch for David.
He will reign as king and succeed,
he will do what is just and right in the land.
In his days Y’hudah will be saved,
Isra’el will live in safety,
and the name given to him will be
יהוהADONAI Tzidkenu [יהוהADONAI our righteousness].David H. Stern, Complete Jewish Bible: An English Version of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and B’rit Hadashah (New Testament), 1st ed. (Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications, 1998), Je 23:5–6.
Seriously studying scripture with Holy Spirit teaching Truth and Righteousness is an ongoing treasure hunt. Looking forward to enjoying more Godly gems
while humanly praying Ephesians 5:14-21 (and cognizant my human existence has two natures constantly at war: Holy Spirit vs sinful self). Thankful can be singing: "Holy, Holy, Holy, is our God Almighty, ..." plus "Jesus Loves me ..."@Bill_Coley said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
The United States of America has one President, who is a son, husband, and father.
President Donald Trump is the son of Fred Trump & Mary Anne MacLeod; currently married to his third wife: Melania Knauss; and father of five children: Donald Jr, Ivanka, Eric, Tiffany, Barron.The fact that Donald Trump is father TO his children in no way suggests that he IS his children (or that his children are him!) any more than does the fact that he is husband TO Melania mean that he IS Melania (or that Melania is him). In truth, the fact that Mr Trump is father to his children by definition means that the president is NOT his children and vice versa.
A person at my door tried to illustrate one God by referring to one President. One True God created man (Adam) in His image. Every human alive is more than one physical body plus more than the work they do. Many humans are able to ask "Who is God ?" and "What is the purpose of my life ?" The President has a massive job to do while still needing to Love and Be Loved.
@Wolfgang said:
Doesn't anyone here notice how illogical and nonsensical the Trinity fantasy is??The need to Love and Be Loved provided One True God reason to become a Triune God having three immensely interconnected intelligent persona's with distinct purposes who truly Love One Another while sharing/possessing One Image.
Without becoming a Triune God, how could One True God provide Holy way for redemption from sin ?
Triune God allowed God the Word to leave His throne in heaven (right hand of God the Father) so Holy Spirit conceived Holy human baby in a righteous virgin woman. Subsequently a Son was born. One name that Jesus refers to Himself is "Son of Man" since Mary was a descendant from Adam whose genealogy is in Luke 3. The Messiah is both God (eternal nature of One True God) and Human (descendant of David - both physically and legally as Matthew 1:1-16 has legal lineage of Joseph).
Jesus, God the Word in Holy human flesh used "Abba" and "Father" for the aspect of One True Triune God ruling on His throne in heaven. Sermon on the Mount includes prayer addressed to God the Father that includes Your Will be done...
Referring to Triune part of God who sets the direction (Will) as Father allows us humans to relate from our childhood when we needed help/direction from those raising us. As a child, we experienced father concept. Caveat: human parents are sinners, who can fail to express God's Love plus human children are sinners who can choose to disobey. From listening to many parents, one of the first words from a young child is "mine" showing selfish sinner nature inherited from Adam. Humanly wonder about words Jesus spoke to Joseph & Mary (since Jesus is Holy nature of God's Love).
When Jesus prays, He enjoys intimate Love communion and fellowship within True Triune God that existed before this world was created (and before God the Word choose to inhabit Holy human flesh about 2,000 years ago). During earthly ministry, Jesus = God praying to the True Triune God continued intimate Love communion and fellowship, which included Himself.
By the way, the President's job pales in comparison to the scope and magnitude of God's Will. Nature of Love allows each human to choose whether to Love God and do His Will (or not). True Triune God wants Holy people in heaven who Love Him. If you Love God, you gladly keep His commandments and do His Will (so your actions doing good deeds shows your Love for the One True God).
For Gentiles, the only way to eternal life with the True Triune God is trusting Jesus: turning from our sins so Holy blood of Jesus can cleanse within.
For Jews, prophecy in Hosea 1:9-10 still applies: (keeping promise made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob)
And he said, “⌊Name him⌋ Lo-ammi,
for you are not my people
and I am not your God.
The number of the children of Israel
will be like the sand of the sea
that cannot be measured or counted;
and in the place where it is said to them,
“You are not my people,”
it will be said to them,
“Children of the living God.”W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), Ho 1:9–10.
How millions of Jews will experience Yeshua HaMashiach personally is a mystery to me.
Note: Jesus is not a name that Yeshua had during His earthly ministry. Latin translation of IESUS morphed over centuries into JESUS. For English speakers, the One True Triune God knows when you are using Jesus for a wonderful Love relationship with the One True God. Cuss words reveal unholy heart (along with insulting the One True Triune God, which is a perverse proof of diety).
@Bill_Coley said:
That in the Gospels Jesus claims to have a God (Matthew 27.46; John 20.17) - a connection supported at least twice in Revelation (Revelation 1.6; 21.6) - suggests strongly that he (Jesus) believed that he was not God. One who IS God cannot have a God unless there is more than one God, an option Jesus specifically rejected - Mark 12.29.Mark 12:29 quotes Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God (Elohim) is One" Elohim is plural that reflects True nature of Triune God who is One.
Redemption plan needed Holy blood (without imperfection) to be shed for payment of sin. During crucifixion, Jesus offered His own Holy human body (sinless) as the sacrifice for all unholy sin (everyone over all time). Before being arrested, Jesus prayed with sweat of blood as He dreaded upcoming separation/tearing within Triune God when penalty for all unholiness would be placed on God the Word (Himself) for sacrifice. Matthew 27:46 and John 19:28 record Holy Righteous parts of Triune God forsaking stinking smelly sacrifice. Holy Father and Holy Spirit intensely Love the Son of Man, but had to separate from the unholy stench, which was the most painful part of crucifixion. After Jesus yielded up his spirit (died physically), the six inch thick tall curtain separating the Holy of Holies in the Temple was torn from top to bottom Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:38, Luke 23:45 (reflecting the separation/tearing within the True Triune God plus showing Holy way to God now open for everyone)
Was the One True God evil when He created an angel of light with free will and placed that angel into the wondrous stream of worship to One True God with that angel subsequently wanting to be worshiped as god (sinful rebellion) ? Isaiah 14:12-21
(adversary's love for the One True God turned into powerful, deceptive hatred, which is only exceeded by the One True God's Love. adversary will use anything to interfere in human Love relationship with the One True Triune God, including lies: Jesus is only a man and is confused about identity.)Believing Jesus is in the eternal One True Triune God fits the context of Revelation 1:4-8 that describes a Glorious destination for those whose sins have been washed clean by God's Holy blood. 1 John 1:9 If we confess (literally same speak) our sins, then God is faithful to forgive us our sins plus cleanse from unrighteousness. Thankful for the uncomfortable cleansing of unrighteousness in my life so now enjoy Holy Loving communion and fellowship with the One True Triune God
Believing the lie Jesus is only a man makes understanding scripture difficult (illogical): e.g. How could this man's blood cleanse sin against the One True God ?@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
Revelation 22:13 includes Jesus saying: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." while Isaiah 44:6 includes God saying "I am the First and I am the Last; apart from me there is no God."@Wolfgang said:
"First and last" is a Hebrew idiom to denote "only one" ... and then context must determine in which regard the "first and last" person is the only one. YHWH, Jesus' father, the Creator, the Almighty, etc is indeed THE ONLY God ...and Jesus himself affirmed this truth in John 17:3. The man Jesus is the only one in a different matter, he is the only true Messiah.Believing the lie that Jesus is only a man prevents recognition of Jesus using One True God descriptions about Himself: the First and the Last as well as Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, describes the One True Triune God, who has provided a Holy way to Love and Be Loved
Keep Smiling
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
Psalm 110 shows One True Triune God: Holy Spirit inspired David to write "The Lord (God the Father) said to my Lord (God the Son)" over 3,000 years ago.Do you not realize that you are actually reading a "God-Trio" INTO the text and that the Scripture text nowhere has anything about a "Triune Gid" (more accurately this should perhaps be "God-Trio")?
Scripture only knows of ONE single Spirit person/being, Who ALONE is the true God. His name is revealed as YHWH. He (that One Person) is described din Scripture as "the Creator", "the Almighty", "the Holy Spirit", "the Holy One", "the Father", "the Ancient of Days", etc
There is NO "God the Son" in Scripture.
There is also no "God the Holy Spirit" in the sense of a second or third or otherwise additional God-person in Scripture, just as "the Creator" is not a separate God-Person, "the Almighty" is not a separate God-Person, "the Father" is not a separate God-Person", etc.
Psalm 110 mentions king David speaking prophetically (a) of God, YHWH, ... "The LORD said ...."; (b) of the Messiah ... that man, whom God would sent and who would be appointed Lord of Lords and King of Kings. Truth is very simple ...
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When looking at human history, one can see from Biblical Scripture and historical information how the knowledge that the true God, the Creator, the Almighty is only ONE acting "Spirit Person" was lost in most of Adam's progeny within a few generations and was replaced with counterfeit "God-concepts" instead ... The true believers in the line leading to Abraham and descendants continued to maintain the truth about GOD being only One Person, while in other branches of humanity in the ancient world different "theological" ideas developed and ruled the vast majority of humanity. Interestingly, in many or most of the ancient "religions, there was always some kind of TRIO of Gods at the top of their "heavenly host" concepts.
Not long after Jesus and his apostles during NT times, such a "TRIO idea" similar to ancient mythologies became intermingled in Christendom under the influence of certain "church fathers" of mostly pagan religious background.
The ideas of adding a "God-Son" showed up in endeavors to make the human Messiah, the man Christ Jesus, into "more than a man, a God-man". Once that idea was pushed to the top, ideas about a "theotokos" concept for that God-man's mother Mary showed up, and to complete the concept of a TRIO of Gods at the top the idea of "the Holy Spirit" as a separate "God-Person" was pushed through and established.
Since the truth of the true God as only One Person could not be done away with, as it all too obviously contradicted the pagan influenced "Trinity" / "Trio of Gods" theology, a "Mystery solution" was propagated .... á la "there is only One God, and He is mysteriously three persons", etc etc etc ....
The belief of the Trinity was pushed and established by political power, including severe persecution of anyone questioning this "Christian mythology" even to the death by sword or being burned at the stake. The persecution continues in most of so-called Christendom to this day, where anyone questioning the "Trinity" is ex-communicated, put down as heretic, excluded from any kind of service within a "church community" etc ...
It is indeed sad to see how the vast majority of those who call themselves "followers of Christ" are following a pagan myth without realizing what they are actually being taught to do ...
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@Wolfgang said:
There is NO "God the Son" in Scripture.Pray asking God to open your eyes followed by serious Bible Study examining the letter of 1st John for God, Son, Love, and Life.
"And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."
W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), 1 Jn 5:11–12.
If Jesus was only a man, how could trusting Jesus give eternal life in God ? how could this man's blood atone for sin against God ?
Keep Smiling
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
Psalm 110 shows One True Triune God: Holy Spirit inspired David to write "The Lord (God the Father) said to my Lord (God the Son)" over 3,000 years ago.Though there is disagreement among scholars about the origin and intentions of Psalm 110, most believe - and I contend there is a strong case to be made that - the second "lord" in Psalm 110.1 is not a deity at all, but rather the king; the Psalm is classified as a "royal psalm." Notice that in the NRSV and the NIV, the second "lord" of the verse is not capitalized.
A similar prophetic passage is Jeremiah 23:5-6
In my view, in its proper context the prophet's message is not best understood as a vision of a divine messiah to come 600 years in the future, but rather of a human leader who will lead Babylonian and other exiles back home in the near future (e.g. Jeremiah 23.6 refers to the saving of both Judah and Israel - obviously time-limited references; Jeremiah 23.8 refers to the return of people from "the north country" (Assyria? Perhaps even Babylon?)
Seriously studying scripture with Holy Spirit teaching Truth and Righteousness is an ongoing treasure hunt. Looking forward to enjoying more Godly gems
while humanly praying Ephesians 5:14-21 (and cognizant my human existence has two natures constantly at war: Holy Spirit vs sinful self). Thankful can be singing: "Holy, Holy, Holy, is our God Almighty, ..." plus "Jesus Loves me ..."Notice the clear distinction between God (the Father) and Jesus (the "Lord" and "Christ"). The writer calls for thanks that are offered in the name of, but not TO Jesus. The thanks are to God, not Jesus.
A person at my door tried to illustrate one God by referring to one President. One True God created man (Adam) in His image. Every human alive is more than one physical body plus more than the work they do. Many humans are able to ask "Who is God ?" and "What is the purpose of my life ?" The President has a massive job to do while still needing to Love and Be Loved.
In my view, this does not respond to the challenge I raised to your apparent suggestion that the Trump family analogy is materially relevant to Trinitarian discussions. I still contend that your analogy is not relevant. Are there ways you believe it IS relevant to the Trinity matter?
The need to Love and Be Loved provided One True God reason to become a Triune God having three immensely interconnected intelligent persona's with distinct purposes who truly Love One Another while sharing/possessing One Image.
Do you have a biblical basis for your contention about the role of God's "need to Love and be Loved" in the origins of a tri-part Godhead? I am particularly curious about your suggestion that God's "need... to be Loved" played a role. Please say some more.
Without becoming a Triune God, how could One True God provide Holy way for redemption from sin ?
I don't understand how redemption from sin required a "Triune God." Please say some more. What could prohibit a God who can do anything from redeeming humanity through any means that God chose, including a human savior?
Triune God allowed God the Word to leave His throne in heaven (right hand of God the Father) so Holy Spirit conceived Holy human baby in a righteous virgin woman. Subsequently a Son was born. One name that Jesus refers to Himself is "Son of Man" since Mary was a descendant from Adam whose genealogy is in Luke 3. The Messiah is both God (eternal nature of One True God) and Human (descendant of David - both physically and legally as Matthew 1:1-16 has legal lineage of Joseph).
Your take here, in my view, assumes a Trinitarian connection between Jesus and God that doesn't exist. I contend that neither Jesus (most prominently), nor his disciples, nor Paul in the NT asserts such a connection. Yes, there are occasional verses which can be read to support your view, but the most sensible interpretation of the VAST majority of verses in the Gospels and the rest of the NT clearly that there is not a Trinitarian connection between God and Jesus, that Jesus is NOT God.
Jesus, God the Word in Holy human flesh used "Abba" and "Father" for the aspect of One True Triune God ruling on His throne in heaven. Sermon on the Mount includes prayer addressed to God the Father that includes Your Will be done...
Yes. YOUR will, God, not mine, be done, Jesus prays. In the Garden of Gethsemene on the night of his arrest, Jesus asks for the same basic outcome. At first, he prays for God to take the cup away from him, but NOT in the end! Jesus' final word is NOT my will, but YOUR will be done, God. Again, the distinction Jesus draws between himself and God is, in my view, very clear.
When Jesus prays, He enjoys intimate Love communion and fellowship within True Triune God that existed before this world was created (and before God the Word choose to inhabit Holy human flesh about 2,000 years ago). During earthly ministry, Jesus = God praying to the True Triune God continued intimate Love communion and fellowship, which included Himself.
Again it seems to me that your conclusion in favor of the Trinity determines your observations about Jesus. The vast majority of NT verses, in my view, dispute your conclusion.
Mark 12:29 quotes Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God (Elohim) is One" Elohim is plural that reflects True nature of Triune God who is One.
In context, I believe it's clear that Jesus quotes the Deuteronomy verse to assert the existence of one, not multiple Gods. The religious law teacher affirms Jesus' word in Mark 12.32. In addition, the brief study I conducted of the term "Elohim" convinced me that though the term is grammatically plural, when it refers to the God of Israel, its meaning is singular - that is, ONE God.
Redemption plan needed Holy blood (without imperfection) to be shed for payment of sin. During crucifixion, Jesus offered His own Holy human body (sinless) as the sacrifice for all unholy sin (everyone over all time). Before being arrested, Jesus prayed with sweat of blood as He dreaded upcoming separation/tearing within Triune God when penalty for all unholiness would be placed on God the Word (Himself) for sacrifice.
A small thing, but this is a favorite nitpick of mine: Luke does NOT say Jesus sweated blood. Luke says Jesus' sweat fell to the ground like "great drops of blood" (Luke 22.44).
Where in the Gospels' presentation of the Garden scene do you find support for your view that Jesus "dreaded upcoming separation/tearing within Triune God"? My reading of the texts leads me to believe he simply didn't want to die.
Believing Jesus is in the eternal One True Triune God fits the context of Revelation 1:4-8 that describes a Glorious destination for those whose sins have been washed clean by God's Holy blood. 1 John 1:9 If we confess (literally same speak) our sins, then God is faithful to forgive us our sins plus cleanse from unrighteousness. Thankful for the uncomfortable cleansing of unrighteousness in my life so now enjoy Holy Loving communion and fellowship with the One True Triune God
I disagree. Revelation 1.4-8 quite clearly distinguishes between Jesus and God. Revelation 1.5-6 describe Jesus as the one who has "freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father." Jesus has a God, John says. One who IS God does not, cannot, have a God, unless there is more than one God, which there is not.
Believing the lie Jesus is only a man makes understanding scripture difficult (illogical): e.g. How could this man's blood cleanse sin against the One True God ?
This is a thread all to itself, in my view, but for the moment it will suffice for me to say I don't think the New Testament defines Jesus as "only a man." Also, I guess I should say, I disagree with your suggestion that our view of the relationship between God and Jesus is a "lie."
Revelation 22:13 includes Jesus saying: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." while Isaiah 44:6 includes God saying "I am the First and I am the Last; apart from me there is no God."
Revelation 1.8, in which God claims to be the Alpha and Omega "who is, and was, and is to come" is the better parallel to Rev 22.13, in my view. BUT Revelation 1.4-5 make clear John's view that Jesus is NOT "the one who is, and was, and is to come," that is, is NOT God.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
@Wolfgang said:
There is NO "God the Son" in Scripture.Pray asking God to open your eyes followed by serious Bible Study examining the letter of 1st John for God, Son, Love, and Life.
Thank you for your encouragement ... God has opened my eyes 4 decades ago to learn from Scripture that He - God - is not a TRIO, a TRINITY or similar construct, and that such ideas were introduced into the Christian church already in the first few centuries AD and establishing apostate "Christianity" as propagated especially by the Roman Church.
"And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."
W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), 1 Jn 5:11–12.Now, what does this have to do with a supposed Holy Trinity ???
If Jesus was only a man, how could trusting Jesus give eternal life in God ? how could this man's blood atone for sin against God ?
What do you mean with "only a man"? Are there men who are more than a man? Are you really meaning to say that Jesus was not a man (because that seems to be what your statement propagates)?
Do you really want to know the answers? If so, start receiving truth, for example from Rom 5:12-15 ...
Keep Smiling
Post edited by [Deleted User] on -
@Bill_Coley said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
Psalm 110 shows One True Triune God: Holy Spirit inspired David to write "The Lord (God the Father) said to my Lord (God the Son)" over 3,000 years ago.Though there is disagreement among scholars about the origin and intentions of Psalm 110, most believe - and I contend there is a strong case to be made that - the second "lord" in Psalm 110.1 is not a deity at all, but rather the king; the Psalm is classified as a "royal psalm." Notice that in the NRSV and the NIV, the second "lord" of the verse is not capitalized.
Scholarly reminder that serious scripture study seeks original context insights: cultural, historical, & linguistic. Jesus applied Psalm 110:1 and Daniel 7:13 to Himself in Matthew 26:59-66 and Mark 14:60-64 that was immediately followed by being judged guilty of blasphemy (human being God), which deserved the death penalty (crucifixion).
By the way, recommend reading Chapter 4 "Let the Bible Be What It Is" in "The Bible Unfiltered: Approaching Scripture on Its Own Terms" by Dr. Michael Heiser@Bill_Coley said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
A similar prophetic passage is Jeremiah 23:5-6In my view, in its proper context the prophet's message is not best understood as a vision of a divine messiah to come 600 years in the future, but rather of a human leader who will lead Babylonian and other exiles back home in the near future (e.g. Jeremiah 23.6 refers to the saving of both Judah and Israel - obviously time-limited references; Jeremiah 23.8 refers to the return of people from "the north country" (Assyria? Perhaps even Babylon?)
Who was the human leader that was heir to David's throne & Righteous ?
The Messiah was the eternal heir to David's throne & Righteous.@Bill_Coley said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
Seriously studying scripture with Holy Spirit teaching Truth and Righteousness is an ongoing treasure hunt. Looking forward to enjoying more Godly gems while humanly praying Ephesians 5:14-21 (and cognizant my human existence has two natures constantly at war: Holy Spirit vs sinful self). Thankful can be singing: "Holy, Holy, Holy, is our God Almighty, ..." plus "Jesus Loves me ..."Notice the clear distinction between God (the Father) and Jesus (the "Lord" and "Christ"). The writer calls for thanks that are offered in the name of, but not TO Jesus. The thanks are to God, not Jesus.
Concur God deserves Praises & Thanks
plus 
humanly growing older has its opportunities since Ephesians 3:14-21 is Paul's prayer that includes searching every dimension for God's Love. Found John 14:9-14 is one place that Jesus told his disciples they can ask him for anything in his name. Many prayers are offered in the name of Jesus. Some prayers are offered through Jesus Christ: e.g. Romans 16:25-27, Ephesians 3:14-21, Jude 24-25@Bill_Coley said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
A person at my door tried to illustrate one God by referring to one President. One True God created man (Adam) in His image. Every human alive is more than one physical body plus more than the work they do. Many humans are able to ask "Who is God ?" and "What is the purpose of my life ?" The President has a massive job to do while still needing to Love and Be Loved.In my view, this does not respond to the challenge I raised to your apparent suggestion that the Trump family analogy is materially relevant to Trinitarian discussions. I still contend that your analogy is not relevant. Are there ways you believe it IS relevant to the Trinity matter?
Human believers in Jesus Christ can personally experience the One True God with prayers to God powered through his Spirit in your inner being plus Christ dwelling in your hearts through faith. Ephesians 3:16-17 is part of Paul's prayer in Ephesians 3:14-21
@Bill_Coley said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
The need to Love and Be Loved provided One True God reason to become a Triune God having three immensely interconnected intelligent persona's with distinct purposes who truly Love One Another while sharing/possessing One Image.Do you have a biblical basis for your contention about the role of God's "need to Love and be Loved" in the origins of a tri-part Godhead? I am particularly curious about your suggestion that God's "need... to be Loved" played a role. Please say some more.
John 3:14-21 includes God's Love for the world plus our need to believe (trust) Him for eternal life. Ephesians 1:3-14 is one long Greek sentence that includes God's plan before the creation of the world for us to be Holy in Him in Love. Matthew 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Remember context of David, Bathsheba, Uriah, and Nathan in 2 Samuel 11-12 for Psalm 51 that includes "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: A broken and contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise." God desires Holy people to dwell with Him. Poor, broken spirit recognizes need for God's Love
so God's Holy way for redemption from sin is effective @Bill_Coley said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
Without becoming a Triune God, how could One True God provide Holy way for redemption from sin ?I don't understand how redemption from sin required a "Triune God." Please say some more. What could prohibit a God who can do anything from redeeming humanity through any means that God chose, including a human savior?
Leviticus 22 includes sacrifice for sin needing to be unblemished (without defect).
Scripture text tells of three whose human existence began Holy: Adam, Eve, and Jesus. All other descendants of Adam are blemished due to inherited sin nature. Adam & Eve choose to believe a lie & die (sin by disobeying God). Jesus was conceived Holy so did not inherit sin nature plus choose to obey God (never sinned).
Humans are limited to physically being in one place at one time. God is not limited. His Holy plan of redemption included God ruling on His Throne in Heaven while The Messiah had God nature in human flesh on earth. Holy Spirit could be everywhere doing miracles for the Glory of God@Bill_Coley said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
Triune God allowed God the Word to leave His throne in heaven (right hand of God the Father) so Holy Spirit conceived Holy human baby in a righteous virgin woman. Subsequently a Son was born. One name that Jesus refers to Himself is "Son of Man" since Mary was a descendant from Adam whose genealogy is in Luke 3. The Messiah is both God (eternal nature of One True God) and Human (descendant of David - both physically and legally as Matthew 1:1-16 has legal lineage of Joseph).Your take here, in my view, assumes a Trinitarian connection between Jesus and God that doesn't exist. I contend that neither Jesus (most prominently), nor his disciples, nor Paul in the NT asserts such a connection. Yes, there are occasional verses which can be read to support your view, but the most sensible interpretation of the VAST majority of verses in the Gospels and the rest of the NT clearly that there is not a Trinitarian connection between God and Jesus, that Jesus is NOT God.
Evil spirit reaction to Jesus provides insight in Mark 1:24 "What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth ? Have you come to destroy us ? I know who you are - the Holy One of God!" Mark 1:21-28, Luke 4:33-37, Matthew 8:28-34, Mark 5:1-20, and Luke 8:28-34 include unclean spirits terrified (testifying) Jesus is God. Personally not know any human(s) who can destroy unclean spirit(s).
Matthew 28:18-20 includes baptism commandment by Jesus in One name (with three "of" parts).
Ephesians 1:3-14 is one long Greek sentence that includes Father, Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit.@Bill_Coley said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
Jesus, God the Word in Holy human flesh used "Abba" and "Father" for the aspect of One True Triune God ruling on His throne in heaven. Sermon on the Mount includes prayer addressed to God the Father that includes Your Will be done...Yes. YOUR will, God, not mine, be done, Jesus prays. In the Garden of Gethsemene on the night of his arrest, Jesus asks for the same basic outcome. At first, he prays for God to take the cup away from him, but NOT in the end! Jesus' final word is NOT my will, but YOUR will be done, God. Again, the distinction Jesus draws between himself and God is, in my view, very clear.
Thankful for Godly prayer example of awesome Love
One God has three distinct persona's that truly Love each other that includes God the Word (Son) doing God the Father's will (plus prayer example for us to cry out to God about anything in our lives) Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."@Bill_Coley said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
When Jesus prays, He enjoys intimate Love communion and fellowship within True Triune God that existed before this world was created (and before God the Word choose to inhabit Holy human flesh about 2,000 years ago). During earthly ministry, Jesus = God praying to the True Triune God continued intimate Love communion and fellowship, which included Himself.Again it seems to me that your conclusion in favor of the Trinity determines your observations about Jesus. The vast majority of NT verses, in my view, dispute your conclusion.
Thankful for Psalm 119:18 "Open my eyes that I may see wonderful things in your law." that precedes my serious scripture study, which has given me reason to review/alter some items learned years ago. Humanly am still a work in progress, who has work to do with God
Thankful for God helping me change to become Holy as He is Holy along with growing in God's Love @Bill_Coley said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
Mark 12:29 quotes Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God (Elohim) is One" Elohim is plural that reflects True nature of Triune God who is One.In context, I believe it's clear that Jesus quotes the Deuteronomy verse to assert the existence of one, not multiple Gods. The religious law teacher affirms Jesus' word in Mark 12.32. In addition, the brief study I conducted of the term "Elohim" convinced me that though the term is grammatically plural, when it refers to the God of Israel, its meaning is singular - that is, ONE God.
Concur with Mark 12:30 "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." Thankful that Loving God with everything allows me to Love one another the way God Loves
Priceless is the vision change to see everyone alive as someone special to God, who desires an intimate, intense Love relationship with each person @Bill_Coley said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
Redemption plan needed Holy blood (without imperfection) to be shed for payment of sin. During crucifixion, Jesus offered His own Holy human body (sinless) as the sacrifice for all unholy sin (everyone over all time). Before being arrested, Jesus prayed with sweat of blood as He dreaded upcoming separation/tearing within Triune God when penalty for all unholiness would be placed on God the Word (Himself) for sacrifice.A small thing, but this is a favorite nitpick of mine: Luke does NOT say Jesus sweated blood. Luke says Jesus' sweat fell to the ground like "great drops of blood" (Luke 22.44).
Hematidrosis is "An extremely rare condition characterised by the sweating of blood, which is said to occur when a person is facing death or other highly stressful events. It has been seen in prisoners before execution and occurred during the London Blitz."
Where in the Gospels' presentation of the Garden scene do you find support for your view that Jesus "dreaded upcoming separation/tearing within Triune God"? My reading of the texts leads me to believe he simply didn't want to die.
Reading Psalm 22 brings tears to my eyes
Two sayings of Jesus on the cross express anguish about being forsaken by God. To me, the stress of being separated from those you intensely Love (with communion & fellowship that predates world being created) seems more likely cause for hematidrosis. Jesus knew his body would be resurrected so would have victory over death. Humanly guessing at agony experienced by One True God during crucifixion Song "Here I am to Worship" includes "I'll never know how much it cost To see my sin upon that cross"@Bill_Coley said:
Revelation 1.8, in which God claims to be the Alpha and Omega "who is, and was, and is to come" is the better parallel to Rev 22.13, in my view. BUT Revelation 1.4-5 make clear John's view that Jesus is NOT "the one who is, and was, and is to come," that is, is NOT God.Revelation 1:4 reminds me of Revelation 4:8 "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come" so John's greeting begins with Grace and Peace from the Lord God Almighty (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) followed by greeting from Jesus, who is the firstborn (preeminent) from the dead (Father and Holy Spirit stayed alive when Jesus physically died).
@Wolfgang said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
@Wolfgang said:
There is NO "God the Son" in Scripture.Pray asking God to open your eyes followed by serious Bible Study examining the letter of 1st John for God, Son, Love, and Life.
Thank you for your encouragement ... God has opened my eyes 4 decades ago to learn from Scripture that He - God - is not a TRIO, a TRINITY or similar construct, and that such ideas were introduced into the Christian church already in the first few centuries AD and establishing apostate "Christianity" as propagated especially by the Roman Church.
Remember Matthew 28:18-20 includes baptism command in the name (with trio "of" God parts):
And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the age.”W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), Mt 28:18–20.
Serious scripture study about blasphemy shows hearers of Jesus understood His statements as being God in human flesh (so those hearers wanted to kill Jesus).
Matthew 26:59-66, Mark 14:60-64, John 10:24-33"And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."
W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), 1 Jn 5:11–12.Now, what does this have to do with a supposed Holy Trinity ???
Denying that Jesus is part of the One True Triune God is denying eternal life for yourself.
If Jesus was only a man, how could trusting Jesus give eternal life in God ? how could this man's blood atone for sin against God ?
What do you mean with "only a man"? Are there men who are more than a man? Are you really meaning to say that Jesus was not a man (because that seems to be what your statement propagates)?
Phrase "only a man" refers back to your belief 'There is NO "God the Son" in Scripture.'
The Messiah, Jesus, was both Man (physically) and God (spiritually). Romans 1:1-7Do you really want to know the answers? If so, start receiving truth, for example from Rom 5:12-15 ...
Who is the Son in Romans 5:10 ? What is the Son's relationship to God ?
Please explain Romans 5:11 "our Lord Jesus Christ" since how can Jesus Christ be our Lord if Jesus Christ is not "God the Son" ?Thankful that Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMashiach is my Lord, God, Priest, Savior, ... who is seated on the right hand of God's throne in heaven
who with the Holy Spirit helps me do God's Will.Praise יהוהADONAI, all you nations! Worship him, all you peoples! For his grace has overcome us, and יהוהADONAI’s truth continues forever. Halleluyah!David H. Stern, Complete Jewish Bible: An English Version of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and B’rit Hadashah (New Testament), 1st ed. (Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications, 1998), Ps 117:1–2.
Keep Smiling
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus you wrote many many many words in your reply to Bill's and my earlier post ... very few of which really address the points made by us or answer questions you were asked. You throw in a lot of thoughts which are bypassing and avoiding the rather simple and plain points which we made.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
@Wolfgang said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
@Wolfgang said:
There is NO "God the Son" in Scripture.Pray asking God to open your eyes followed by serious Bible Study examining the letter of 1st John for God, Son, Love, and Life.
Thank you for your encouragement ... God has opened my eyes 4 decades ago to learn from Scripture that He - God - is not a TRIO, a TRINITY or similar construct, and that such ideas were introduced into the Christian church already in the first few centuries AD and establishing apostate "Christianity" as propagated especially by the Roman Church.
Remember Matthew 28:18-20 includes baptism command in the name (with trio "of" God parts):
And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the age.”
W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), Mt 28:18–20.I do remember that passage very well, have studied it in detail and have read quite a fwe commentary articles concerning it .... in particular about the discrepancy between the wording in Mt 28:19 and the wording found in records in Acts where the apostles carried out Jesus' commission but never once used that wording. Already at Pentecost, only a few days after Jesus had spoken those words, Peter seems to have either forgotten what Jesus had commanded or he took the liberty to change Jesus' command ....
The difficulty appears to be caused in that after the council of Nicea in 325 AD, the wording in Mt 28:19 was changed from " .... make disciples of all nations IN MY NAME" and a baptism formular was inserted with " ... baptizing them in the name of the Fathere, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost".Serious scripture study about blasphemy shows hearers of Jesus understood His statements as being God in human flesh (so those hearers wanted to kill Jesus).
Matthew 26:59-66, Mark 14:60-64, John 10:24-33I already addressed this ... noting the simple plain fact that the claim you make that Jesus claimed to be God in human flesh is NOT even found in these passages. I wonder who of u sis doing the serious scripture study to which you allude above ... isn't accurately reading of the text the first step to a serious study of Scripture?
"And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life."
Now, what does this have to do with a supposed Holy Trinity ???
Denying that Jesus is part of the One True Triune God is denying eternal life for yourself.
Coming back to your claim of serious scripture study ... what you claim here ("Jesus is part of the One True Triune God") is NOT found in the text, not even in the translation which you used ??
If Jesus was only a man, how could trusting Jesus give eternal life in God ? how could this man's blood atone for sin against God ?
What do you mean with "only a man"? Are there men who are more than a man? Are you really meaning to say that Jesus was not a man (because that seems to be what your statement propagates)?
Phrase "only a man" refers back to your belief 'There is NO "God the Son" in Scripture.'
That there is no "God the Son" in Scripture has nothing to do with my belief or anyone else's belief .... use your Logos Bible software and do a search, your search will come up with "0 results"
The Messiah, Jesus, was both Man (physically) and God (spiritually). Romans 1:1-7
Seriously, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, how or where does Rom 1:1-7 say what you are claiming ??
Does a serious Scripture study not quickly show and prove that Scripture knows NO such "dual beings" as "God-man" or "man-God" ?? What do you mean with "Jesus was ...God (SPIRITUALLY)" ? Are you referring to holy spirit being up him, which was the case after God had anointed him with holy spirit and power (cp Peter's words in Acts 10)?
Do you really want to know the answers? If so, start receiving truth, for example from Rom 5:12-15 ...
Who is the Son in Romans 5:10 ? What is the Son's relationship to God ?
The man Christ Jesus is the son of God ... which is NOT the same as the man Christ Jesus is God.
Please explain Romans 5:11 "our Lord Jesus Christ" since how can Jesus Christ be our Lord if Jesus Christ is not "God the Son" ?
You ask a wrong "backward" question ...
A serious scripture study on your part could show you the answer to your question ... GOD made the man Jesus to be both Lord and Christ (cp. Acts 2:36)Thankful that Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMashiach is my Lord, God, Priest, Savior, ... who is seated on the right hand of God's throne in heaven
who with the Holy Spirit helps me do God's Will.So you have your God sitting at His own right hand next to His own throne?
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@Wolfgang said:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus you wrote many many many words in your reply to Bill's and my earlier post ... very few of which really address the points made by us or answer questions you were asked. You throw in a lot of thoughts which are bypassing and avoiding the rather simple and plain points which we made.Communicating through blinders is challenging. Replies seem to feel like ships passing in the night (still learning how text is viewed through your blinders).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
Serious scripture study about blasphemy shows hearers of Jesus understood His statements as being God in human flesh (so those hearers wanted to kill Jesus).
Matthew 26:59-66, Mark 14:60-64, John 10:24-33I already addressed this ... noting the simple plain fact that the claim you make that Jesus claimed to be God in human flesh is NOT even found in these passages. I wonder who of u sis doing the serious scripture study to which you allude above ... isn't accurately reading of the text the first step to a serious study of Scripture?
To accurately understand illegal Jewish trial of Jesus, we need to understand the Jewish context (meaning of original words in original setting). Caiaphas, the High Priest, placed Jesus under oath by the Living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God. Caiaphas reaction to Jewish response by Jesus shows Caiaphas understanding "Jesus is God" so wanted Jesus put to death for blasphemy.
That there is no "God the Son" in Scripture has nothing to do with my belief or anyone else's belief .... use your Logos Bible software and do a search, your search will come up with "0 results"
LET ME [as God’s representative] sing of and for my greatly Beloved [God, the Son] a tender song of my Beloved concerning His vineyard [His chosen people]. My greatly Beloved had a vineyard on a very fruitful hill. [S. of Sol. 6:3; Matt. 21:33–40.]
The Amplified Bible (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1987), Is 5:1.
The Messiah, Jesus, was both Man (physically) and God (spiritually). Romans 1:1-7
Seriously, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, how or where does Rom 1:1-7 say what you are claiming ??
God promised this Good News in advance through his prophets in the Tanakh. It concerns his Son—he is descended from David physically; he was powerfully demonstrated to be Son of God spiritually, set apart by his having been resurrected from the dead; he is Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord. Through him we received grace and were given the work of being an emissary on his behalf promoting trust-grounded obedience among all the Gentiles, including you, who have been called by Yeshua the Messiah.
David H. Stern, Complete Jewish Bible: An English Version of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and B’rit Hadashah (New Testament), 1st ed. (Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications, 1998), Ro 1:2–6.
Does a serious Scripture study not quickly show and prove that Scripture knows NO such "dual beings" as "God-man" or "man-God" ?? What do you mean with "Jesus was ...God (SPIRITUALLY)" ? Are you referring to holy spirit being up him, which was the case after God had anointed him with holy spirit and power (cp Peter's words in Acts 10)?
Apologies for my serious study not matching yours (plus feels like cannot receive what do not want to believe).
Unclean spirit in Mark 1:23-25 testifies that the man Jesus is the Holy One of God, who was capable of destroying unclean spirit. Also unclean spirit obeyed Jesus' commands.In their synagogue there was a man with an unclean spirit. And he cried out, “Leave us alone! What do You have to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are, the Holy One of God.”
Jesus rebuked him, saying, “Be silent and come out of him!” When the unclean spirit had convulsed him and cried out with a loud voice, it came out of him.Modern English Version, Thinline Edition. (Lake Mary, FL: Passio, 2014), Mk 1:23–26.
Do you really want to know the answers? If so, start receiving truth, for example from Rom 5:12-15 ...
Who is the Son in Romans 5:10 ? What is the Son's relationship to God ?
The man Christ Jesus is the son of God ... which is NOT the same as the man Christ Jesus is God.
Please explain Romans 5:11 "our Lord Jesus Christ" since how can Jesus Christ be our Lord if Jesus Christ is not "God the Son" ?
You ask a wrong "backward" question ...
A serious scripture study on your part could show you the answer to your question ... GOD made the man Jesus to be both Lord and Christ (cp. Acts 2:36)Acts 2:33-36 includes Jesus being exalted to the right hand of God that echos Jesus reply in Matthew 26:64 that caused Caiaphas to declare Jesus being guilty for blasphemy (God in human flesh).
Thankful that Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMashiach is my Lord, God, Priest, Savior, ... who is seated on the right hand of God's throne in heaven
who with the Holy Spirit helps me do God's Will.So you have your God sitting at His own right hand next to His own throne?
Thankful for God the Father sitting on His Throne in heaven with the "Son of Man" (the Word became flesh, Son of God, Jesus, Yeshua, Prince of Peace, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, ...) seated at His right hand.
Keep Smiling
