"The Father" and "The Son"
Comments
-
Jesus is the Word of God.
God the Father is speaking in the Old Testament, and it is Jesus speaking.
-
Jesus is God the Father.
This is God the Father speaking and saying that they will look on ME, THE ONE THEY HAVE PIERCED.
Zechariah 12:10 Then I will pour out on the house of David and on the residents of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and prayer, and they will look on Me, the One they have pierced. They will mourn for Him as one mourns an only child, and weep bitterly for Him as one grieves a firstborn son.
Now read this scripture in Revelation; it says they will see the one they have pierced. That is Jesus. Now look to the very next scripture, Jesus is speaking and say that he is the ALPHA AND OMEGA, the FIRST AND THE LAST, BEGINNING AND ENDING. God the Father calls HIMSELF those things in the Old Testament!
Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him--even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.
Isaiah 44:6 "This is what the LORD says--Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
Revelation 22:12 “Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
-
Here is a question for those who say Jesus is not God the Father.
Who are the only two people that can stop children from being called an orphan?
-
I never much studied modalism, just briefly when I was said to have the same beliefs as them. I am going by the scriptures in the Holy Bible. I think though that the difference between my beliefs and modalism is that I believe the three exist at the same time. Modalists say the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit do not exist simultaneously, but rather consecutively.
Thank you for the additional information regarding your beliefs, it is very helpful.
Yes, as you say, the commonly encountered form of modalism would be the sequential type. You are the first person holding to this belief of simultaneously co-existing modes that I have had any contact.
In this system of belief is the Father then also considered a mode as the Son and Spirit would be?
-
@Pages Thank you for the additional information regarding your beliefs, it is very helpful.
Yes, as you say, the commonly encountered form of modalism would be the sequential type. You are the first person holding to this belief of simultaneously co-existing modes that I have had any contact.
In this system of belief is the Father then also considered a mode as the Son and Spirit would be?
Thank you for your kindness. I was raised a trinitarian but after being saved and having Jesus himself living in my heart I had some more knowledge that most probably did not. When I joined an online discussion group another member said Jesus was not God. I started to defend the trinity doctrine but could not continue to because the trinity doctrine says the Father and Son are different and separate. I knew that Jesus himself was living inside me, and John 14:23 became crystal clear about being saved and receiving one Spirit which is the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Calling the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit a 'mode' doesn't seem right. I know though that it is what modalists say.
-
@YourTruthGod wrote
I was raised a trinitarian but after being saved and having Jesus himself living in my heart I had some more knowledge that most probably did not. When I joined an online discussion group another member said Jesus was not God. I started to defend the trinity doctrine but could not continue to because the trinity doctrine says the Father and Son are different and separate. I knew that Jesus himself was living inside me, and John 14:23 became crystal clear about being saved and receiving one Spirit which is the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
When words in the Scripture text no longer have their meaning for a person and "the spirit in my heart" or "Jesus in my heart" and such ideas have taken over, it is usually a waste of time to point someone back to the Scriptures because the Scriptures have lost their authority to the emotion control in such a person's heart (despite the persons usually claiming the opposite).
-
When words in the Scripture text no longer have their meaning for a person and "the spirit in my heart" or "Jesus in my heart" and such ideas have taken over, it is usually a waste of time to point someone back to the Scriptures because the Scriptures have lost their authority to the emotion control in such a person's heart (despite the persons usually claiming the opposite).
All you have proved is that you have not received the Holy Spirit and that you don't know the scriptures; it is ironic how you say that about me but it proves it about you.
-
Here is a question for those who say Jesus is not God the Father.
Who are the only two people that can stop children from being called an orphan?
Jesus said he would send the Comforter and that they would know the Comforter and that they would know the Comforter because the Comforter had been living with them. Jesus is the one who had been living with them; AND, Jesus said he isn’t leaving them as orphans---only a mother or a father can keep a child from being an orphan. Jesus is the Father and the Comforter.
Jesus says those who overcome he will be their GOD and they will be his CHILDREN.
See Revelation 21:7. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
If we are Jesus' children, then he is our Father.
John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Did you read that scripture? Who but a Father will not leave children as orphans?
-
@YourTruthGod wrote:
All you have proved is that you have not received the Holy Spirit and that you don't know the scriptures; it is ironic how you say that about me but it proves it about you.
And why should I or anyone think that you, a person who doesn't know the most basic truth that a Son can NOT be his own Father, nor can a Father be his own Son, knows much about the scriptures?
Or are you trying to tell me -- as some other folks with similar strange ideas have done in the past -- that the more things and ideas make no sense the more spiritual they are and come from "the Holy Spirit"??
-
@YourTruthGod wrote
Here is a question for those who say Jesus is not God the Father.
Who are the only two people that can stop children from being called an orphan?
The answer to your question depends on the context in which the term "orphan" is used ...
If the context is about biological family situation, the word "orphan" would describe the situation of children whose father and mother are no longer available as caretaker, sustainer, etc. most often due to death of the parents.
If the context is not about biological family situation, it could be that the term "orphan" would be used emphatically as part of a figure of speech to describe a person or persons (could be children or adults not family related at all) who is left without a caretaker, sustainer, etc ...
Now to your question "Who are the only two people that can stop children from being called orphans?" ... Since in the case of children in a father-mother-children family relationship being called an "orphan" would mean that the father and mother are no longer available, any person taking the responsibility of taking in the child to take care of them, support them, sustain them,, etc could stop the child from being in such a position as "orphaned" ... the parents could not do so, because they would be dead.
Your question and your following interpretation show your lack of careful reading what the verse in question is talking about .... and you are then grossly misinterpreting impossible and totally senseless fiction into Jesus' words.
-
@Wolfgang And why should I or anyone think that you, a person who doesn't know the most basic truth that a Son can NOT be his own Father, nor can a Father be his own Son, knows much about the scriptures?
God the Almighty can do anything He wants, and He came in the flesh as a son.
You can understand humans cloning themselves but you can't figure out how God the Almighty can come to earth as a son.
Or are you trying to tell me -- as some other folks with similar strange ideas have done in the past -- that the more things and ideas make no sense the more spiritual they are and come from "the Holy Spirit"??
I don't understand what you mean.
-
@Wolfgang The answer to your question depends on the context in which the term "orphan" is used ...
That is not true.
The word orphan is used one way. The definition of 'orphan' is a child whose both parents are dead.
If the context is about biological family situation, the word "orphan" would describe the situation of children whose father and mother are no longer available as caretaker, sustainer, etc. most often due to death of the parents.
If the context is not about biological family situation, it could be that the term "orphan" would be used emphatically as part of a figure of speech to describe a person or persons (could be children or adults not family related at all) who is left without a caretaker, sustainer, etc ...
Now to your question "Who are the only two people that can stop children from being called orphans?" ... Since in the case of children in a father-mother-children family relationship being called an "orphan" would mean that the father and mother are no longer available, any person taking the responsibility of taking in the child to take care of them, support them, sustain them,, etc could stop the child from being in such a position as "orphaned" ... the parents could not do so, because they would be dead.
The only two people who could keep a child from being an orphan is the mother or the father.
JESUS said HE WOULD NOT LEAVE THEM AS ORPHANS, and that HE IS COMING BACK TO THEM.
That proves that Jesus is God the Father and the Holy Spirit.
-
@YourTruthGod posted:
Who are the only two people that can stop children from being called an orphan?
Jesus didn't tell his disciples that they would be "called an orphan." He didn't even tell them would become orphans. He told them he would not abandon/leave them "as" orphans. What does that phrase mean? Orphans are abandoned - left alone - by the deaths of their parents. Jesus tells his disciples that they will not be left alone after his death, as orphans are left alone after the deaths of their parents.
How will Jesus not leave his disciples alone? Three ways:
- Jesus will ask the Father to give them "another Advocate, who will never leave [them.]" (John 14.16)
- His disciples will "see" him after he has been "raised to life," (John 14.21) and will then know that he is in them and they are in him. (John 14.20)
- Jesus will "love" and "reveal [himself]" to those who "accept and obey" his commandments. (John 14.21)
At no time in the John 14 text does Jesus identify himself as the Father (why would he promise to ask the Father for an Advocate if he already is the Father, which would seem to mean he promises to ask himself for an Advocate?) or as the Holy Spirit (Jesus defines the Holy Spirit as an Advocate for whose presence he must ask the Father; such permission would be unnecessary were he himself the Holy Spirit.
Jesus said he would send the Comforter and that they would know the Comforter and that they would know the Comforter because the Comforter had been living with them. Jesus is the one who had been living with them; AND, Jesus said he isn’t leaving them as orphans---only a mother or a father can keep a child from being an orphan. Jesus is the Father and the Comforter.
- Jesus did not say he would send the Comforter. He said he would ask the Father, who would give them that Comforter. (John 14.16)
- Jesus identifies the Comforter as the Holy Spirit. (John 14.17) He gives no hint or suggestion that he himself is the Comforter. In fact, Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit in third person: "He is the Holy Spirit, who leads into all truth. The world cannot receive him, because it isn’t looking for him and doesn’t recognize him. But you know him, because he lives with you now and later will be in you." (John 14.17, NLT)
- Importantly, immediately after those words in John 14, Jesus switches to first person speech: "18 No, I will not abandon you as orphans—I will come to you. 19 Soon the world will no longer see me, but you will see me. Since I live, you also will live. 20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you...." The point is Jesus is clearly NOT afraid to speak in first person about himself and what he sees as his role in his disciples' lives post-resurrection. Therefore, in my view, we must assume he speaks about the Holy Spirit in third person because he thinks of the Holy Spirit in third person - because he himself is not the Holy Spirit. Given his first person speech throughout John 14, the most sensible conclusion is that had he believed himself to be the Holy Spirit, he would have used first person speech to say so. He didn't... because he's not the Holy Spirit.
- As for the orphans, see above. His death will NOT leave them orphans. His death will leave them abandoned (John 14.18) "as orphans" are abandoned when their parents die. Even though they won't be orphans per se, it happens that it will be a "father" - THE "Father" - who will keep them from being "as orphans" when Jesus asks the Father to send the disciples an Advocate/Comforter. (John 14.16)
Jesus says those who overcome he will be their GOD and they will be his CHILDREN.
I encourage you to view Revelation 21.7 in a red-letter edition of the NT (ESV, NLT, to name two) You'll discover that the verse is NOT in red, meaning it does NOT contain the words of Jesus. It is God, not Jesus, whose children those who overcome will be.
How do we know? Revelation 21.3: "I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, “Look, God’s home is now among his people! He will live with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them."
And Revelation 21.22-24: "22 I saw no temple in the city, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon, for the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its light. 24 The nations will walk in its light, and the kings of the world will enter the city in all their glory.
God is God. The glorified Jesus is the Lamb. They clearly are not one and the same.
Disagree with my analysis? Great! Demonstrate my errors from the text. No one liners. No dismissive personal commentary. Show from the text how my exegesis of John 14 and Revelation 21 is incorrect.
-
@Bill_Coley, the written word of God has to be believed.
You make a lot of excuses why the Bible doesn't say what it says.
-
@YourTruthGod posted:
@Bill_Coley, the written word of God has to be believed.
You make a lot of excuses why the Bible doesn't say what it says.
I asked that your response to my textual analysis come "from the text," that you show the errors of my exegesis "from the text." I asked that you show the errors of my ways from what you call "the written word of God" that "has to believed." That is, I asked you to engage with me in serious Bible study. You declined my request, and chose instead the path I asked you not to choose: "one liners" and "dismissive personal commentary.... Enough said.
-
@YourTruthGod wrote_
You make a lot of excuses why the Bible doesn't say what it says.
Could you point out the Biblical texts on which you make such claim? Bill asked for arguments from the Biblical text being discussed that would show his understanding was wrong ... and you come up with the above?
-
@YourTruthGod wrote:
The word orphan is used one way. The definition of 'orphan' is a child whose both parents are dead.
Again, you disregard how languages use words and in particular you seem ignorant and in need of learning about the use of words in context and recognition of literal use and figure of speech use of words in statements.
Here's some helpful information from Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 447). New York: United Bible Societies.
34.21 ὀρφανόςb, οῦ m or f: (a figurative extension of meaning of ὀρφανόςa ‘orphan,’ 10.40) one who is without associates who may be of sustaining help—‘friendless person, helpless.’
Did you notice that the word translated "orphans" in English Bible translations is actually not a noun in the Greek text but rather an adjective? A better translation would be "leave orphant, leave as orphans".
The disciples being addressed had in no way a family relationship with Jesus ... he was NOT their FATHER !! They never addressed him as their father, nor did he address them as his sons. Jesus' words obviously were not meant in reference to a literal "orphan" situation, but he used the expression figuratively. His words had NOTHING to do with him thinking of himself as their father ...
@YourTruthGod, I suggest you get away from "YOUR truth" and endeavor to learn God's truth as revealed in Scripture. This is not meant as a nasty comment, but as a very serious encouragement out of concern and a desire to direct you to Biblical truth. YOUR "truth" about Jesus being his own Father is utter nonsense ... Do you believe God is stupid? a nonsense God? I doubt that you do ... and yet that is exactly what you make both Jesus and God out to be ....
So you don't get over excited, I also suggest that in a quest for God's truth, you put aside my understanding (or anyone else's understanding). If general principles I mentioned for reading text, checking meaning of words, reading context, observe the use of figures of speech prove helpful, then utilize them ..
-
what does the following verse teach concerning who Jesus is?
2 John 3 (AV)
Grace, mercy, peace shall be with us, from God the Father, and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Is there something about the Father amd the Son are not two but one and the same?
What about this one?
2 John 9 (AV)
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
What does the word BOTH indicate? Perhaps "one and the same" ???
-
@Wolfgang what does the following verse teach concerning who Jesus is?
2 John 3 (AV)
Grace, mercy, peace shall be with us, from God the Father, and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Is there something about the Father amd the Son are not two but one and the same?
What about this one?
2 John 9 (AV)
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
What does the word BOTH indicate? Perhaps "one and the same" ???
The scriptures show that they are the same. If you have the Son you have the Father and the Holy Spirit.
See the scripture above that you posted, and see this scripture too:
John 14:23 Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
-
@Wolfgang Could you point out the Biblical texts on which you make such claim? Bill asked for arguments from the Biblical text being discussed that would show his understanding was wrong ... and you come up with the above?
The word 'orphan' means a child with both parents deceased.
Jesus says he will come to his disciples and not leave them as orphans.
A brother cannot stop anyone from being an orphan.
Only a mother or father can stop someone from being an orphan.
John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
-
In light of the content of two of your recent posts, @YourTruthGod...
- July 15, 1:30 p.m. - "I am not interested in speaking to @Wolfgang fgang and @Bill_Coley anymore. It is too frustrating to have them mock every scripture I post and then deny they do it." and...
- July 15, 3:55 p.m. - "I love God's Word and if someone else does not, then there is no discussing with you."
... I'm curious as to why you continue to post and speak to and discuss thread topics with Wolfgang and me.
- First there was your July 15, 8:07 p.m. post - "I have no idea what you are talking about @Bill_Coley ,"
- And now there are your posts of today, July 16: THIS ONE, THIS ONE, and THIS ONE.
Do your posts SINCE the July 15 posts quoted above mean that you have decided to continue to speak to and discuss thread topics with Wolfgang and me?
-
@Bill_Coley keep wandering then.
Could you refrain from speaking nothing about the Lord to me and the scriptures?
Post edited by YourTruthGod on -
@YourTruthGod posted:
@Bill_Coley keep wandering then.
Could you refrain from speaking nothing about the Lord to me and the scriptures?
The reason I asked the question I asked in my previous post was that your previous posts SURE SEEMED to declare that you didn't want to discuss or speak with Wolfgang and me about "the Lord" and "the Scriptures" because in your view a) we "mock every Scripture [you] post and then deny [we] do it," and b) we don't "love God's Word." So are you saying that you have changed your mind, that you are now willing to discuss and speak with Wolfgang and me, even though we mock the Scriptures you cite, deny that we do so, and don't love God's Word?
I'll gladly resume engaging in threads with you once I receive what I think is a reasonable request for assurance that you'll engage with us.
-
I am not going to answer you about your folly.
Speak according to the scriptures or I don't reply.
-
@YourTruthGod posted:
I am not going to answer you about your folly.
Speak according to the scriptures or I don't reply.
It's not my "folly" that's at issue here. It's your previous posts in which I think you made clear your decision not to discuss or speak with Wolfgang or me because in your view we "mock every Scripture [you] post and then deny [we] do it," and don't "love God's Word." Those were your words, not mine. I don't think it's "folly" to ask whether you still stand by your own words.
From your replies in this current exchange, however, it seems to me that you have rescinded your previous decision, and I will proceed accordingly.
p.s. In most applications, the kind of "folly" you attach to my posts in this exchange is called holding people accountable for their actions. Such indeed has been my objective - in this case, the accountability was for the content of your previous posts.
-
Jesus says he will come to his disciples and not leave them as orphans.
A brother cannot stop anyone from being an orphan.
Oh, so Jesus is not a brother in any sense for the disciples? Is that what he declared or something you claim here ...
Only a mother or father can stop someone from being an orphan.
John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.
Before you said "orphan" is someone whose mother and father (both parents) have died.
Question: How did Jesus know that the mothers and fathers of his disciples had died so that he could refer to them as "orphan"? Or did he perhaps not refer to them as "orphans"? Was Jesus their mother or father so that his departure would have left them "orphans" until mother pr father showed back up on the scene?
-
@Wolfgang, I am speaking of spiritual things and about a Spiritual Father. You are speaking about worldly things.
-
@YourTruthGod wrote:
@Wolfgang, I am speaking of spiritual things and about a Spiritual Father. You are speaking about worldly things.
sure .. that's what I knew you would most likely come up with ...
How do you know anything about spiritual things if you can't even get earthly matters right ??? (cp John 3,12 for the principle involved)
-
@Wolfgang sure .. that's what I knew you would most likely come up with ...
How do you know anything about spiritual things if you can't even get earthly matters right ??? (cp John 3,12 for the principle involved)
You are the one speaking of worldly things when I am speaking of spiritual things.
Just look at what you said.
You asked if Jesus knew their parents would die.
-
You asked if Jesus knew their parents would die.
that was simply the follow up to your use and interpretation of the word "orphan" ... as far as the spiritual world is concerned, can there even by any "orphans" as you say with mother and father ??
![[Deleted User]](https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/fcddec765be35f238a0844bd23f54b59/?default=https%3A%2F%2Fvanillicon.com%2F8ce8323767a20f0f45db140c4cd2cea1_200.png&rating=g&size=200)
