Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ?
Comments
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I think you understate the man's assertion about Jesus' sinner status. Were he to have had "no sin testimony against Jesus," he would have said something other than what he said - perhaps, "I have no reason to believe he's a sinner," or "I think Jesus is God, so he can't be a sinner!" But that's not what the man says. He says he doesn't know, one way or the other, whether Jesus is a sinner, a statement that means in his view, it's as likely that Jesus IS a sinner as it is that Jesus is NOT a sinner. In my view, he DOES have a "sin testimony," but it's about Jesus, not against him.
I'll ask you again the question I posed in my previous post: If the man believed Jesus was God, how could he have not known whether Jesus was a sinner?
Fascinating aspect about John 9.11 is the man born blind knowing "The man they call Jesus ..." since John 9 does not mention name of Jesus being spoken.
I find nothing unusual about the man's knowing Jesus' name. From the Gospels' witness, it's clear Jesus developed quite a public following wherever he went. That his name spread sufficiently that man born blind heard knew his name, therefore, is not surprising in my view.
Jesus words in John 9:39 read to me as One who directly causes divine action = God (who left heaven to enter this world to render judgment ...).
John 9.39 reads to me as a personal mission statement from Jesus, an assertion of God's call on his life. He entered the world - i.e. he was born - to give sight and to reveal blindness (a form of judgment). The verse says nothing about Jesus' leaving heaven or those actions' demonstration of his divinity.
What does worship mean to you ? What words in scripture could indicate deity worship for you ?
Worship of God is confession, adoration, proclamation, and response to God's identity as the one true God.
Here's an example of what I consider worship in scripture - from Revelation 4.8-11 (NLT):
8 Each of these living beings had six wings, and their wings were covered all over with eyes, inside and out. Day after day and night after night they keep on saying, “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty— the one who always was, who is, and who is still to come.”
9 Whenever the living beings give glory and honor and thanks to the one sitting on the throne (the one who lives forever and ever), 10 the twenty-four elders fall down and worship the one sitting on the throne (the one who lives forever and ever). And they lay their crowns before the throne and say,
11 “You are worthy, O Lord our God, to receive glory and honor and power. For you created all things, and they exist because you created what you pleased.”
What you "see" in scripture text is restricted (filtered) by what you believe (from my faith view, your replies show knowledge of Jesus while not knowing Jesus). ...
As for the "filters" created by our beliefs and faith views, it seems to me that all of us own, benefit from, and on occasion are no doubt hobbled by them.
As for your "faith view" about what my replies "show" about the nature of my "knowledge" about and "knowing" of Jesus, as I believe I have made clear to you on multiple previous occasions, I don't believe such judgments are appropriate in forums among whose founding expectations is that participants will "criticize ideas, not people." Therefore, I will not follow you into a rhetorical ditch by making judgments about what your replies reveal about your knowledge about and knowing of Jesus.
Actually Peter declared Jesus is God, who fulfilled Messianic prophecy, in an appropriate Jewish way: e.g. quoted part of Psalm 118 (since Sanhedrin hearers could fill in Psalm 118 context from their years of studying scripture).
In 1 Peter 2.4-8, Peter tells us what he means by his quotation from Psalm 118:
- 1 Peter 2.4 - Jesus was rejected by people, but "chosen" by God
- 1 Peter 2.5 - The people of the Church are also "stones" - "living stones," in our case. Jesus "mediates" (NLT) to make our sacrifices acceptable to God
- 1 Peter 2.6 - God has "given" Jesus "honor" (NLT)
That is, God appointed/called/anointed Jesus to be the stone the builders rejected. I find no indication, either in Peter's words or in Psalm 118, that the rejected stone is God.
What does Psalm 2:12 (NLT) "Submit to God's royal son" mean to you ? Acts 4:25-26 quoted Psalm 2:1-2 (believers in Acts 4 had Jewish background so knew Psalm 2 context).
In its original setting, Psalm 2 is what scholars call a "royal Psalm," a Psalm that lifts to God's and readers' attention the reign of a then-current king. Peter quotes from Psalm 2 so as to report to his audience a modern fulfillment of the psalmist's description of the rejection of the Lord's anointed. Please notice that in Pslam 2, that rejection is in the past tense! ["The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed." Psalm 2.26, ESV] It's already happened when the Psalmist writes, many centuries before the time of Jesus. SO, Peter finds a new fulfillment - a modern fulfillment - of the Psalmist's declaration of an event that's already happened. (cf. Matthew's finding modern fulfillment of the Isaiah 7.14 prophecy, another event that had already happened in its original setting.)
In addition, the one anointed is NOT the one doing the anointing, just as the stone placed is NOT the one who places the stone.
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@Bill_Coley wrote: I think you ...
Observation: intriguing word choice to begin a reply about ideas ...
Bible search for "know" in John 9 finds nine verses in the New Living Translation, including four "don't know" answers: twice by the man born blind, once by his parents, and once by Pharisees.
@Bill_Coley wrote: I'll ask you again the question I posed in my previous post: If the man believed Jesus was God, how could he have not known whether Jesus was a sinner?
My earlier answer still applies. Rereading John 9 shows the man born blind answered belief question from Jesus with belief in Jesus. Humanly not know when the man born blind choose to believe in Jesus; my guess is after some Pharisees cursed him and threw him out (from human answers to human questions). While the man born blind did not know whether Jesus was a sinner, he did know: "I was blind, and now I can see."
How could God be glorified by the man born blind believing in the man Jesus ? Especially since believing in Jesus includes worship of Jesus as Lord יהוה God, which would be sin if Jesus is not God.
Do you agree the man born blind spoke Lord in John 9:38 as an expression of personal belief in Jesus (included adoration, response, ...) ?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: What does worship mean to you ? What words in scripture could indicate deity worship for you ?
@Bill_Coley wrote: Worship of God is confession, adoration, proclamation, and response to God's identity as the one true God.
Here's an example of what I consider worship in scripture - from Revelation 4.8-11 (NLT):
Like the Psalmist, my worship also includes Joyful singing. Reading Revelation 4:8-11 reminds me of John 10:30 (One) and also thought about the right hand of power ruling on God's throne in God's commUnity of Love.
@Bill_Coley wrote: As for the "filters" created by our beliefs and faith views, it seems to me that all of us own, benefit from, and on occasion are no doubt hobbled by them.
Concur. Thankful for God being my teacher of Truth to lovingly help me understand/appreciate His word. Thankful for God's Shalom (Peace with Blessings ...) beyond human understanding 😍Many times God has gently corrected me. 😍For example, the acrostic JOY "Jesus Others Yourself" is out of order since we need to Love God first with everything we are, which enables God's Love to flow through us so can truly Love One Another (including the one in the mirror). How can we love our neighbors as ourselves if we are not loving ourselves ?
@Bill_Coley wrote: As for your "faith view" about what my replies "show" about the nature of my "knowledge" about and "knowing" of Jesus, as I believe I have made clear to you on multiple previous occasions, I don't believe such judgments are appropriate in forums among whose founding expectations is that participants will "criticize ideas, not people." Therefore, I will not follow you into a rhetorical ditch by making judgments about what your replies reveal about your knowledge about and knowing of Jesus.
Observation: judgments are your own. My faith view is simply restating your faith view about clear separation between God and Jesus. John 14 includes Jesus teaching about God's "in" commUnity of Love: I am in the Father and the Father is in me and I am in you, which is knowing Jesus (in an intimate love relationship in One God). In contrast, clear separation between God and Jesus knows about Jesus.
My goal is writing Truthful words in Love using kind words, which could be spoken in a church conversation per What is Christian Debate? guidelines that also encourages contradictory opinions to be expressed while avoiding Name-calling, Ad hominem attacks, and Reacting to a post's tone rather than responding to its content.
@Bill_Coley wrote: In 1 Peter 2.4-8, Peter tells us what he means by his quotation from Psalm 118:
That is, God appointed/called/anointed Jesus to be the stone the builders rejected. I find no indication, either in Peter's words or in Psalm 118, that the rejected stone is God.
1 Peter 2:8 quotes Isaiah 8:14 whose context includes Lord יהוה God (from Isaiah 8:13)
Make the Lord of Heaven’s Armies holy in your life. He is the one you should fear. He is the one who should make you tremble. He will keep you safe. But to Israel and Judah he will be a stone that makes people stumble, a rock that makes them fall.
Puzzled by NLT committee not capitalizing he in Isaiah 8:14 while capitalizing He in Isaiah 8:13 since these pronouns refer to Lord יהוה God (Hebrew scriptures use one case for all letters so capitalization in English is human interpretation)
Observation is your Bible study includes verse(s) that support your faith view while effectively ignoring those that do not (scripture "filtered" by faith view, which reflects human nature to ignore what is not believable that affects me too).
Jesus spoke words appropriate for His audience: parables were followed by Jesus quoting Psalm 118:22,23 in Matthew 21:42, Mark 12:10-11, and Luke 20:17 for teaching about the Kingdom of God. The chief priests, Pharisees, and scribes recognized parables were spoken against them (with prophecy about Jesus being rejected => crucified).
@Bill_Coley wrote: Please notice that in Pslam 2, that rejection is in the past tense!
What words describe a prophet using past tense to describe future action that God has shown to the prophet as completed ?
Interpretation of "past" tense timing belongs to God per 2 Peter 1:20-21 since God gives prophecies and God interprets prophetic timing of fulfillment(s). Remember timing example in Zechariah 9:9-10 that has a couple thousand years between adjacent words. From my faith perspective, Psalms 2 has a variety of timings: Psalm 2:6 has yet to happen while Psalm 2:7 happened ~1,981 years ago with Psalm 2:8 being done ~1,948 years ago. Prayerfully reading Psalm 2:4 leaves me wondering how many times God has laughed at human plans while also sensing Psalm 2:1-6 has yet to be completed (possibly concurrent with Revelation 20).
Rephrasing Psalm 2:12 (NLT) "Submit to God's royal son" question: Who is God's royal son ? What does submit to Him mean ?
@Bill_Coley wrote: In addition, the one anointed is NOT the one doing the anointing, just as the stone placed is NOT the one who places the stone.
Appears NOT assertions are beliefs about what God cannot be (another way of expressing a faith perspective that believes God is limited to being in one place at one time like humans created by God).
Concur assertions are true for humans while knowing One God is NOT limited by human conventions. Actually One God created human conventions (out of nothing).
Keep Smiling 😀
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My earlier answer still applies. Rereading John 9 shows the man born blind answered belief question from Jesus with belief in Jesus. Humanly not know when the man born blind choose to believe in Jesus; my guess is after some Pharisees cursed him and threw him out (from human answers to human questions). While the man born blind did not know whether Jesus was a sinner, he did know: "I was blind, and now I can see."
This response does not address the question I asked, so I will rephrase the question: If the man born blind believed Jesus was God, then wouldn't he have naturally, logically, and necessarily ALSO believed that Jesus was NOT a sinner? Doesn't the fact that the man doesn't know whether Jesus was a sinner mean - again logically and necessarily - that he also did not believe Jesus was God?.. unless you think the man believed one who was God could also be a sinner?
How could God be glorified by the man born blind believing in the man Jesus ? Especially since believing in Jesus includes worship of Jesus as Lord יהוה God, which would be sin if Jesus is not God.
Your recurring contention that the man worshiped Jesus as God is one I have and continue to dispute. I find no evidence in the text that the man believed Jesus was God. In my view, you have yet to demonstrate from the text that such was the man's belief. You have demonstrated from your faith's view of the word "Lord," but not from any other part of the man's testimony in the text.
Do you agree the man born blind spoke Lord in John 9:38 as an expression of personal belief in Jesus (included adoration, response, ...) ?
As I have posted previously in our exchange, I read the man's "belief" in Jesus as an expression of certainty/conviction about Jesus' power and authority over sickness, but NOT as an affirmation of Jesus' deity.
Concur. Thankful for God being my teacher of Truth to lovingly help me understand/appreciate His word. Thankful for God's Shalom (Peace with Blessings ...) beyond human understanding 😍Many times God has gently corrected me. 😍For example, the acrostic JOY "Jesus Others Yourself" is out of order since we need to Love God first with everything we are, which enables God's Love to flow through us so can truly Love One Another (including the one in the mirror). How can we love our neighbors as ourselves if we are not loving ourselves ?
I appreciate your witness of faith.
My goal is writing Truthful words in Love using kind words, which could be spoken in a church conversation per What is Christian Debate? guidelines that also encourages contradictory opinions to be expressed while avoiding Name-calling, Ad hominem attacks, and Reacting to a post's tone rather than responding to its content.
I won't comment on the truthfulness of your words because the topic of your words - whether I know Jesus - is inappropriate in forums among whose expectations is that participants will "criticize ideas, not people." Comments about another poster's spiritual health, character, integrity, or beliefs are comments about posters, not their ideas. Any comment whose subject is the pronoun "you" runs a high risk of being about the person, not the person's ideas. To suggest that I don't know Jesus - again, without comment as to the accuracy of your judgment - is to comment about me, not my ideas. I will engage your critiques of my ideas with gladness and satisfaction. I will not engage critiques about me (nor offer such judgments about you).
1 Peter 2:8 quotes Isaiah 8:14 whose context includes Lord יהוה God (from Isaiah 8:13)
Make the Lord of Heaven’s Armies holy in your life. He is the one you should fear. He is the one who should make you tremble. He will keep you safe. But to Israel and Judah he will be a stone that makes people stumble, a rock that makes them fall.
1 Peter 2.4 makes clear that Peter believes God chose Jesus to be the stone. 1 Peter 2.7 says God gave Jesus "great honor." The one chosen by God and given great honor in this way cannot also be God, at least in the logic of Peter's words.
Puzzled by NLT committee not capitalizing he in Isaiah 8:14 while capitalizing He in Isaiah 8:13 since these pronouns refer to Lord יהוה God (Hebrew scriptures use one case for all letters so capitalization in English is human interpretation)
At least in the NLT, it seems me that the explanation is simple: In Isaiah 8.13, the pronoun "he" begins two sentences, and therefore is capitalized. In Isaiah 8.14, the pronoun is in the middle of a sentence, and thus is not capitalized. A quick search for "he" in reference to God in the NLT's translation of Isaiah shows that the committee always capitalizes the pronoun when it begins a sentence, but never capitalizes the word if it's elsewhere in a sentence. My personal habit in quoting Scripture in our Sunday worship flyers is not to capitalize pronouns that refer to God. Basically, I follow the NLT exactly (that's the translation we use in our pew Bibles and that we project on the screen)
Observation is your Bible study includes verse(s) that support your faith view while effectively ignoring those that do not (scripture "filtered" by faith view, which reflects human nature to ignore what is not believable that affects me too).
Your observation is not correct. In my daily reading, I read for devotion, not for study, but in the context of our exchange, certain verses have caught my attention. As I have testified on many occasions over the years in my CD posts, I acknowledge the existence of verses that can be interpreted as supportive of a Trinitarian point of view. My view, however, is that those verses, both in number and consequence, are FAR, FAR outweighed by the verses that make clear Jesus is NOT God. It's proven very difficult to get Trinitarians to engage directly and without evasion the dozens of texts I have cited in my posts. At some point, I ask again and again, doesn't the fact that SO MANY verses seem to say Jesus is NOT God mean something significant?
What words describe a prophet using past tense to describe future action that God has shown to the prophet as completed ?
I don't know where I came up with the quotation from Psalm 2.26 in my previous post. One, there is no v.26 in Psalm 2. Two, there is no translation that adds the word "were" to v.2. I have no idea.
However, Psalm 2.6 contains language of an action God has already completed. "I have placed my chosen king on the throne in Jerusalem." God has already completed the action, according to the psalmist.
Interpretation of "past" tense timing belongs to God per 2 Peter 1:20-21 since God gives prophecies and God interprets prophetic timing of fulfillment(s). Remember timing example in Zechariah 9:9-10 that has a couple thousand years between adjacent words. From my faith perspective, Psalms 2 has a variety of timings: Psalm 2:6 has yet to happen while Psalm 2:7 happened ~1,981 years ago with Psalm 2:8 being done ~1,948 years ago. Prayerfully reading Psalm 2:4 leaves me wondering how many times God has laughed at human plans while also sensing Psalm 2:1-6 has yet to be completed (possibly concurrent with Revelation 20).
I respect your interpretation of the Psalm. I tend to accept a writer's intentions at face value. If a writer uses past tense, it's because he or she is referring to something already completed. Other interpretive stances about the writer's original intentions raise serious risks of eisegesis.
Rephrasing Psalm 2:12 (NLT) "Submit to God's royal son" question: Who is God's royal son ? What does submit to Him mean ?
In its original context, God's royal son in Psalm 2 is the king to which the psalmist refers.
Appears NOT assertions are beliefs about what God cannot be (another way of expressing a faith perspective that believes God is limited to being in one place at one time like humans created by God).
Concur assertions are true for humans while knowing One God is NOT limited by human conventions. Actually One God created human conventions (out of nothing).
Again, I'm simply reading the writer's/speaker's words and assuming they mean what they say. God anoints Jesus, Peter says, without a hint of a suggestion that Jesus is God. God chose Jesus, Peter says, without a hint of a suggestion that the one God chose was also God. You're welcome to read into Peter's words whatever meanings you choose, but Peter's words in Acts 2 and 4 do not in any way say Jesus is God, and are most sensibly interpreted to mean Jesus is NOT God.
That's not just my "filters;" that's the biblical text. Peter NEVER says Jesus is God. He just doesn't. YOU read such a conviction into his words - and I welcome you to do so - but in his words Peter makes no such assertion.
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Hello everyone still here,
having had a little time and taking a look at this thread again, I wanted to briefly comment on the statement below
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote
How could God be glorified by the man born blind believing in the man Jesus ?
God was glorified because the man Jesus was recognized as having acted with authority and power granted him by God.
Since Mose (and other men in OT times) performed miracles because of God's power and being authorized by God, was God not glorified when the people recognized that God had worked a miracle at the hands of the man Moses (or the other men)?
Especially since believing in Jesus includes worship of Jesus as Lord יהוה God, which would be sin if Jesus is not God.
There are two fundamental problems with this stated assumption:
(1) The word "worship (showing reverence, adoration, utmost respect,.lpve, etc)" does not mean in and of itself "worship AS GOD". (cp. the magi in Mt 2, where the text clearly states that they came "to worship" the new KING ...)
(2) The word "Lord" does not in and of itself mean "Lord יהוה God", (cp. Mt 8:6ff, when a Roman centurion addressed Jesus as "Lord", and it is clear that he certainly was not of the opinion that he was speaking to God)
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And yet more evidence from my daily Bible reading in support of my view that Peter did not believe Jesus was God. This is from Acts 10 (ESV), the story of Peter's interaction with Cornelius: (emphasis added)
37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, 40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, 41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
So Peter says...
- God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit and power
- Jesus did good and performed healings because God was with him
- Jesus died on the cross, but God raised him and made him to appear
- The resurrected Jesus commanded the disciples to tell people that he (Jesus) is the one God had appointed to be judge
There is simply nothing in Peter's testimony to Cornelius to suggest that Peter thinks Jesus is God. Instead, everything in Peter's witness suggests that Peter believes Jesus is NOT God. Such is the clear, most obvious, most common sensible meaning of his words.
[NOTE: As for the suggestion that I pick and choose the Bible readings that fit my belief system, I again note that these texts come up naturally in my daily Bible readings. And the fact is that in said reading, I encounter NO texts that in my view report that Peter thinks Jesus is God. When it comes to the issue of Peter's Christology, the verses I cite in this thread ARE his views. There are no texts to cite that present a different case. Peter does NOT believe Jesus is God.... Of course, I am open to be challenged. Cite the text(s) in which Peter says Jesus is God, texts which, when read with Peter's statements in Acts 2,4, and 10, present a consistent witness that Jesus is God. I will give serious consideration to every text you offer.]
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@Bill_Coley wrote: If the man born blind believed Jesus was God, then wouldn't he have naturally, logically, and necessarily ALSO believed that Jesus was NOT a sinner?
English has Western culture words that clearly separate thought and action. Greek cultural ancestors considered mental thought all important while physical world meant nothing (e.g. Plato). Ancient Near Eastern culture combined thought with action outcome, which is expressed in James 2:26 (NLT) "Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works." and 1 John 5:3 (NLT) "Loving God means keeping his commandments, ..."
Did the man born blind know Jewish law ? (yes as testified by interaction with Pharisees in the story)
Did the man born blind view Jesus healing action on Sabbath as sin ? (no so he disagreed with Pharisee sin claim by answering "I don't know")
Observant Jews pray "The Shema" (Deuteronomy 6:4–9; 11:13–21; Numbers 15:37–41) at least twice daily, wonder how many times the man born blind prayed "Sh’ma, Yisra’el! ADONAI Eloheinu, ADONAI echad" [Hear, Isra’el! ADONAI our God, ADONAI is one] that could also be translated [Hear, Isra’el! ADONAI our God, ADONAI alone] ... And you must Love the Lord your God .... ADONAI is Hebrew for Lord that was spoken in place of יהוה to avoid accidentally taking God's Most Holy Name in vain. English translation of Hear for Sh’ma misses part of Hebrew verb meaning due to English having Western culture words that separate thought and action. Essence of Sh’ma (Hear & Do) is expressed in James 1:22 (NLT) But don’t just listen to God’s word. You must do what it says.
Sh’ma verbal action is illustrated in John 9 by Jesus telling the man born blind to go wash in the pool of Siloam ("sent"). The man heard and obeyed.
Faithlife eBook => Walking in the Dust of Rabbi Jesus: How the Jewish Words of Jesus Can Change Your Life chapter 2 expanded my historical Jewish understanding of Sh’ma and echad
@Bill_Coley wrote: Your recurring contention that the man worshiped Jesus as God is one I have and continue to dispute. I find no evidence in the text that the man believed Jesus was God. In my view, you have yet to demonstrate from the text that such was the man's belief. You have demonstrated from your faith's view of the word "Lord," but not from any other part of the man's testimony in the text.
Response skipped over question: "How could God be glorified by the man born blind believing in the man Jesus ?"
From the text, you agreed John 9:38 has both worship and Lord. Historical Jewish meaning of Lord as יהוה God has become part of my faith view. John 9:38 (NLT) “Yes, Lord, I believe!” the man said. And he worshiped Jesus.
If Jesus is not God, then any worship of Jesus is sin. "The Shema" daily prayers by Jews (including Jesus) has a stern warning against serving and worshipping other gods in Deuteronomy 11:13-21
Puzzled by belief of Jesus being Savior while also believing Jesus is NOT God, which has a logical sinful contradiction: Jesus received worship while knowing God alone deserves worship.
From my faith view, action of Jesus to request belief in Himself & receive worship is consistent with Jesus being God in human flesh (while not being all of God in one human body). All of the Spirit inside body of Jesus is God while God's Spirit is more than body of Jesus. One God chose to be three voices in commUnity of Love before creating this world out of nothing. Three voices (sharing One essence: heart, soul, strength) are needed to express God is Love without any voice being arrogant since part of Holy Love is humility that does not seek its own. Teaching of Jesus is different than other humans: Matthew 7:28-29 (NLT) Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, for he taught with real authority—quite unlike their teachers of religious law.
@Bill_Coley wrote: As I have posted previously in our exchange, I read the man's "belief" in Jesus as an expression of certainty/conviction about Jesus' power and authority over sickness, but NOT as an affirmation of Jesus' deity.
What biblical words in John 9 provide basis for "belief" assertion by the man born blind ?
Please explain purpose of "believe in" question to the man born blind in John 9.35 (NLT) When Jesus heard what had happened, he found the man and asked, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
Using Logos Bible software to search John 9 for power, authority, OR sickness found one result in John 9:3 so included preceding context: John 9:1-3 (NLT) As Jesus was walking along, he saw a man who had been blind from birth. “Rabbi,” his disciples asked him, “why was this man born blind? Was it because of his own sins or his parents’ sins?” “It was not because of his sins or his parents’ sins,” Jesus answered. “This happened so the power of God could be seen in him.
If Jesus is not God, how could the man Jesus have intelligent knowledge about the lack of sin cause for the man born blind ?
@Bill_Coley wrote: 1 Peter 2.4 makes clear that Peter believes God chose Jesus to be the stone. 1 Peter 2.7 says God gave Jesus "great honor." The one chosen by God and given great honor in this way cannot also be God, at least in the logic of Peter's words.
Disagree with human logic assertion about God's limitations. God created humans out of nothing, which includes God's breath of Life into one human being inherited by every human, who are each confined to one physical body for heart, soul, and might while existing within time boundaries. God created human limits plus God is not bound by human limits.
The One God's CommUnity of Love chose one voice, Jesus, to be Holy sacrifice for all human sin, which was rewarded with great honor. I can only imagine magnitude of tears shed by God for created humans who do not choose to Love God. Conversely the Loving Joy in Holy Heaven for humans that truly believe in God is absolutely amazing, which includes being able to experience Love in God on earth.
@Bill_Coley wrote: At some point, I ask again and again, doesn't the fact that SO MANY verses seem to say Jesus is NOT God mean something significant?
No. Human logic cannot comprehend the fullness of God's Love. Believing Jesus is NOT God prevents an intimate Love relationship in Jesus.
Thankful for those who truly Love Lord יהוה God (Jews hearing & obeying God's commands) while not yet knowing Yeshua (יֵשׁוּעַ => Ἰησοῦς => Jesus that reflects "I" in Latin changing to "J" centuries ago) as their Lord יהוה God Savior (in the CommUnity of God's Love). Currently aware of two ways to truly Love Lord יהוה God: Jewish & followers of The Way (who have a personal relationship in Jesus).
Legalistic obedience of God's commands can still have a human heart that does not Love God like some Pharisees in John 9, who were angry at Jesus for healing a man born blind on the Sabbath. Pharisees had spent years memorizing & discussing every word in Torah (Teaching), yet some of them had human heart desires far from God's Love, which included desire for Jesus to die physically (since they valued human power/riches/prestige more than loving God).
@Bill_Coley wrote: Again, I'm simply reading the writer's/speaker's words and assuming they mean what they say. God anoints Jesus, Peter says, without a hint of a suggestion that Jesus is God. God chose Jesus, Peter says, without a hint of a suggestion that the one God chose was also God. You're welcome to read into Peter's words whatever meanings you choose, but Peter's words in Acts 2 and 4 do not in any way say Jesus is God, and are most sensibly interpreted to mean Jesus is NOT God.
That's not just my "filters;" that's the biblical text. Peter NEVER says Jesus is God. He just doesn't. YOU read such a conviction into his words - and I welcome you to do so - but in his words Peter makes no such assertion.
Human belief "filters" affect understanding of Lord in biblical text as יהוה God or something else.
Acts 2 audience is Jews from around the world who have prayed Lord meaning יהוה God many, many times (at least twice daily) plus heard Lord meaning יהוה God multiple thousands of times during synagogue readings. Hence, original Jewish audience hearing Acts 2:25 (NLT) "King David said this about him: ‘I see that the Lord is always with me." understood Peter saying "him" (Jesus) is Lord יהוה God. Later in Acts 2, Peter speaks Lord meaning יהוה God several more times, including Acts 2:36 (NLT) So let everyone in Israel know for certain that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, to be both Lord and Messiah!” Result was 3,000 believing in Jesus as their Lord יהוה God and Messiah followed by being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins.
Logos Bible search of NLT for verses having three words: God anoint Jesus finds one result in Acts 10:38 that is proceeded by Lord in Acts 10:36 (NLT) This is the message of Good News for the people of Israel—that there is peace with God through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.
My exegetical understanding of Acts 10:36 is "there is peace with God through Jesus Christ, who is Lord יהוה God of all." from historical Jewish cultural use of Lord meaning יהוה God in prayers and biblical text. Hence Peter declared Jesus is Lord יהוה God many times in the biblical text of Acts.
@Bill_Coley wrote: Any comment whose subject is the pronoun "you" runs a high risk of being about the person, not the person's ideas.
Concur so was a bit surprised by your reply "YOU read such a conviction into his words ..."
My prayerful exegetical understanding of biblical text includes historical Jewish cultural meaning while seeking to answer: "What is the Truth in original biblical context ?" Reason for including historical Jewish cultural meaning is customary Jewish actions are mentioned in biblical text without explanation: e.g. last day of the festival in John 7:37
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: How could God be glorified by the man born blind believing in the man Jesus ?
@Wolfgang wrote: God was glorified because the man Jesus was recognized as having acted with authority and power granted him by God.
Since Mose (and other men in OT times) performed miracles because of God's power and being authorized by God, was God not glorified when the people recognized that God had worked a miracle at the hands of the man Moses (or the other men)?
Moses and other men in the OT did not ask anyone who received a miracle from God to specifically believe in the person that God used to perform a miracle. Logos Bible search for phrase "believe in" shows OT object of "believe in" is God.
If Jesus is not God, how does believe in the man Jesus bring glory to God ?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: Especially since believing in Jesus includes worship of Jesus as Lord יהוה God, which would be sin if Jesus is not God.
@Wolfgang wrote: There are two fundamental problems with this stated assumption:
(1) The word "worship (showing reverence, adoration, utmost respect,.lpve, etc)" does not mean in and of itself "worship AS GOD". (cp. the magi in Mt 2, where the text clearly states that they came "to worship" the new KING ...)
(2) The word "Lord" does not in and of itself mean "Lord יהוה God", (cp. Mt 8:6ff, when a Roman centurion addressed Jesus as "Lord", and it is clear that he certainly was not of the opinion that he was speaking to God)
If Jesus is not God, then any worship (GOD or god) of Jesus is sin. "The Shema" daily prayers by Jews (including Jesus) has a stern warning against serving and worshipping other gods in Deuteronomy 11:13-21
From Matthew 8 context, not know meaning of "Lord" intended by a Gentile Roman Centurion living among observant Jews who could have explained "Lord יהוה God" meaning in their daily prayers and scripture text readings. Parallel passage in Luke 7:1-10 includes verse 5 description about Roman Centurion (NLT) “If anyone deserves your help, he does,” they said, “for he loves the Jewish people and even built a synagogue for us.”
John 9:38 text has both "worship" and "Lord יהוה God" meaning along with the Jewish man born blind believing in Jesus.
Keep Smiling 😀
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote:
If Jesus is not God, then any worship (GOD or god) of Jesus is sin. "The Shema" daily prayers by Jews (including Jesus) has a stern warning against serving and worshipping other gods in Deuteronomy 11:13-21
...
John 9:38 text has both "worship" and "Lord יהוה God" meaning along with the Jewish man born blind believing in Jesus.
I suggest reading the context of the passage and understand what is written rather than reading into it what is not written
John 9:35-38 (ESV) -- "35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36 He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?” 37 Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.” 38 He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him."
Did Jesus ask "Do you believe in God?" or perhaps "Do you believe that I am God?" Did the man ask "And who is God, that I may believe in Him?" Did Jesus then reply "You have seen God, and it is God Who is speaking to you" ? Did the healed blind man then say" God, I believe" and the text continues "and he worshiped God" ?
Since the text very plainly speaks about Jesus as the Son of Man and makes clear that Jesus is NOT God ... not in Jesus' own words, not in the healed man's words, not in the gospel writer's words. Why then, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, are you proposing a different gospel with your textually unfounded interpretation ?
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English has Western culture words that clearly separate thought and action. Greek cultural ancestors considered mental thought all important while physical world meant nothing (e.g. Plato). Ancient Near Eastern culture combined thought with action outcome, which is expressed in James 2:26 (NLT) "Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works." and 1 John 5:3 (NLT)"Loving God means keeping his commandments, ..."
In my view, your response to my question about whether the man born blind could have believed Jesus was God AND STILL not known whether he was a sinner does not address the question, so let me put it this way:
- The man born blind almost certainly believed God was not a sinner, that there was no sin in God. (Do you agree?)
- If the man born blind believed Jesus was God, therefore, he almost certainly would have ALSO believed Jesus was not a sinner, that there was no sin in Jesus. (Do you agree?)
- The fact that the man told the synagogue leaders he didn't know whether Jesus was a sinner therefore almost certainly means the man did not believe Jesus was God.
What's wrong with that logic?
Response skipped over question: "How could God be glorified by the man born blind believing in the man Jesus ?"
Where in John 9 do you find evidence of the man's intention to glorify God through his response to his recovery of sight? I read his response as passionate gratitude to Jesus.
In John 9.16, the Pharisees contend Jesus cannot be "from God" because they believe him to be a sinner. The man born blind says he doesn't know about Jesus' sinner status (John 9.25) but he believes God listens to people who worship God and do God's will (John 9.32) In the context of the chapter, I understand this to mean the man clearly believes Jesus is one whom God listens to, who worships God and does God's will. The man concludes his response with a contention that Jesus is in fact "from God," (John 9.33) a direct rebuttal of the leaders' earlier judgment.
Nowhere in the man's exchanges with the leaders or with Jesus is there mention of the man's intention to glorify God.
From the text, you agreed John 9:38 has both worship and Lord. Historical Jewish meaning of Lord as יהוה God has become part of my faith view. John 9:38 (NLT) “Yes, Lord, I believe!” the man said. And he worshiped Jesus.
I respect your faith view. My faith view is that the man does not worship Jesus as God, but rather expresses profound gratitude to Jesus for his healing, and recognizes declares that Jesus is "from God."
What biblical words in John 9 provide basis for "belief" assertion by the man born blind ?
In my view, it's actions, not words, that provide the basis for the man's "belief assertion." It's when Jesus restores the man's sight - which in his declared view means Jesus is someone God listens to because Jesus worships God and does God's will (John 9.32) - that the man asserts his belief.
If Jesus is not God, how could the man Jesus have intelligent knowledge about the lack of sin cause for the man born blind ?
Spiritual discernment. We all have it. We all exercise it, at least on occasion. Jesus had it more and more completely than any of us.
Disagree with human logic assertion about God's limitations. God created humans out of nothing, which includes God's breath of Life into one human being inherited by every human, who are each confined to one physical body for heart, soul, and might while existing within time boundaries. God created human limits plus God is not bound by human limits.
So your argument is that even though the text uses words whose most obvious and sensible interpretation is that Jesus is not God (God chose Jesus; God anointed Jesus; God appointed Jesus; God raised Jesus) and in fact uses NO words whose most obvious and sensible interpretation is that Jesus IS God, we should STILL conclude that the most obvious and sensible interpretation of the texts is that Jesus is God because God has no limitations. In other words, don't believe the words you read in John 9 or Acts 2 or Acts 4 or Acts 10. Instead, believe what you believe about Jesus and God even though what you believe about Jesus and God is in fact contradicted by the words of John 9 and Acts 2 and Acts 4 and Acts 10.
It seems to me that either your view or the texts must be mistaken, then.
No. Human logic cannot comprehend the fullness of God's Love. Believing Jesus is NOT God prevents an intimate Love relationship in Jesus.
Are the scores of verses whose most obvious and sensible interpretation is that Jesus is NOT God correct?
- When in Acts 2 Peter says Jesus was a "man" "through" whom "God did mighty works and wonders and signs" (Acts 2.22) was Peter right? If you contend that Jesus as a "man" was one of the "commUnity" of voices, where in the text does Peter give ANY suggestion of such a belief?
- And when in Acts 10 Peter tells Cornelius that God "anointed" Jesus with the Holy Spirit and that Jesus did "good and healing" because "God was with him," (Acts 10.38) was Peter correct?
Where is there ANY declaration of Jesus' being God in Peter's words in those chapters?
My exegetical understanding of Acts 10:36 is "there is peace with God through Jesus Christ, who is Lord יהוה God of all." from historical Jewish cultural use of Lord meaning יהוה God in prayers and biblical text. Hence Peter declared Jesus is Lord יהוה God many times in the biblical text of Acts.
I see nothing in the text itself to support your view. In my view, your faith view - which I respect and celebrate - is determining your "exegetical understanding" of the Acts 10 text. Peter gives no indication that he believes Jesus is God, and in fact throughout his presentations in Acts gives every indication that he believes Jesus is NOT God.
Concur so was a bit surprised by your reply "YOU read such a conviction into his words ..."
It's not the word "YOU" alone that determines whether its assertion is about you or your beliefs/actions. In context, "YOU" in that assertion clearly referred to what I believed was the act of your reading your personal faith conviction into a verse. Had I posted something like, "YOU don't know how to interpret the Bible," then THAT would have been about you, just as your claim that I don't know Jesus was about me. But I didn't post that. I said you read a personal conviction into a verse. That was about your action, not about you.
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John 9:35-38 (ESV) -- "35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” 36 He answered, “And who is he, sir, that I may believe in him?” 37 Jesus said to him, “You have seen him, and it is he who is speaking to you.” 38 He said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him."
@Wolfgang wrote: Did Jesus ask "Do you believe in God?" or perhaps "Do you believe that I am God?" Did the man ask "And who is God, that I may believe in Him?" Did Jesus then reply "You have seen God, and it is God Who is speaking to you" ? Did the healed blind man then say" God, I believe" and the text continues "and he worshiped God" ?
Concur with your modern understanding of dialog between Jesus and the man born blind in John 9:35-38, which expresses historical Jewish cultural meaning for pronouns plus "Son of Man" phrase as fulfillment of Daniel 7:13-14 prophecy along with Lord יהוה God in daily prayers and synagogue scripture readings.
Reason for including historical Jewish cultural meaning is customary Jewish actions are mentioned in biblical text without explanation: e.g. last day of the festival in John 7:37 (assumed common experience between biblical authors and original audience).
Earlier in this thread had my reply about Daniel 7:13-14
@Bill_Coley wrote: "There is NOTHING in the Daniel verse that suggests the "son of man" is also God. That role belongs solely to the "Ancient of Days."
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: OP had 'The ending of John chapter 9 (verses 35-41) include Jesus asking the healed man if he believes in the "Son of Man" (that is a diety term for Jesus referring to Daniel 7:13-14) followed by the healed man worshipping Jesus (without being rebuked by Jesus).' Daniel 7:14 shows "Son of Man" in Daniel 7:13 is an eternal ruler, which is God (with parallel in Revelation 14:14 wearing a gold crown). Two titles for Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Compare 1 Timothy 6:15, Revelation 17:14 and 19:16 with Deuteronomy 10:17 and Psalms 136:3
My goal is writing Truthful words in Love using kind words, which could be spoken in a church conversation per What is Christian Debate? guidelines that also encourages contradictory opinions to be expressed while avoiding Name-calling, Ad hominem attacks, and Reacting to a post's tone rather than responding to its content.
After praying for God to open my eyes to behold the wonders of His Word, my worshipful study includes answering question: "What is the Truth in original biblical context ?"
@Bill_Coley wrote: In my view, your response to my question about whether the man born blind could have believed Jesus was God AND STILL not known whether he was a sinner does not address the question, so let me put it this way: 1. The man born blind almost certainly believed God was not a sinner, that there was no sin in God. (Do you agree?) 2. If the man born blind believed Jesus was God, therefore, he almost certainly would have ALSO believed Jesus was not a sinner, that there was no sin in Jesus. (Do you agree?) 3. The fact that the man told the synagogue leaders he didn't know whether Jesus was a sinner therefore almost certainly means the man did not believe Jesus was God.
What's wrong with that logic?
- Agree plus Logos Bible search for verses having three words: God is Light included Job 33:28 (NLT) in results
- Agree
- Not know about personal belief in Jesus as Lord יהוה God when the man born blind expressed disagreement with Pharisee sin claim.
Logic has timing assumption when the man born blind believed in Jesus as Lord יהוה God, which appears in John 9:35-38 dialogue.
@Bill_Coley wrote: I tend to accept a writer's intentions at face value. If a writer uses past tense, it's because he or she is referring to something already completed.
@Bill_Coley wrote: In my view, it's actions, not words, that provide the basis for the man's "belief assertion."
Logically left puzzled by inconsistent hermeneutic approaches: "face value", "actions, not words", ...
My primary focus is Loving God with everything in me with goal of becoming Holy as God is Holy, which enables me to Love One Another as God Loves (including the one in the mirror). With all my fingers pointing at me, Thankful to be a work in progress who has some human comfort limits that God is peacefully helping me adjust. Praising God for many answered prayers over the past few years plus wonderful daily communion in God. Thankful for God answering prayers in His way and timing, which has humanly been uncomfortable a number of times, but Holiness is much better than my prior sinfulness. Words fail to convey awesome Loving presence of God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: If Jesus is not God, how could the man Jesus have intelligent knowledge about the lack of sin cause for the man born blind ?
@Bill_Coley wrote: Spiritual discernment. We all have it. We all exercise it, at least on occasion. Jesus had it more and more completely than any of us.
To me, one aspect of Jesus being God in human flesh is His intimate, intelligent knowledge about heart condition and sin cause in every human. My thoughts have three sources: myself, spiritual adversary, & Holy Spirit. Our spiritual adversary is the father of lies, who wants to disrupt human Love relationship in God using variety of ways & thoughts (some are quite subtle/crafty: close to truth while missing out: e.g. "worship" means profound gratitude, but not worship & Lord is different than יהוה God). Thankful for God peacefully answering my prayers so can test my thoughts by Thankfully praying them to God with desire for me to hear & obey God's Peace ruling in my heart.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: Disagree with human logic assertion about God's limitations. God created humans out of nothing, which includes God's breath of Life into one human being inherited by every human, who are each confined to one physical body for heart, soul, and might while existing within time boundaries. God created human limits plus God is not bound by human limits.
@Bill_Coley wrote: So your argument is that even though the text uses words whose most obvious and sensible interpretation is that Jesus is not God (God chose Jesus; God anointed Jesus; God appointed Jesus; God raised Jesus) and in fact uses NO words whose most obvious and sensible interpretation is that Jesus IS God, we should STILL conclude that the most obvious and sensible interpretation of the texts is that Jesus is God because God has no limitations. In other words, don't believe the words you read in John 9 or Acts 2 or Acts 4 or Acts 10. Instead, believe what you believe about Jesus and God even though what you believe about Jesus and God is in fact contradicted by the words of John 9 and Acts 2 and Acts 4 and Acts 10.
Humanly "most obvious and sensible" depends on faith beliefs. What is "most obvious and sensible" to me declares Jesus being God all through the Bible, including John 9 and Acts 2 and Acts 4 and Acts 10 (as shown in my replies earlier in this thread). Historical Jewish daily prayers and scripture reading understood Lord = יהוה God so Jesus is Lord יהוה God, which contradicts faith belief that Jesus is not God.
To me, One God's commUnity of Love having three voices (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) chose, anointed, appointed, & raised Jesus.
@Bill_Coley wrote: It seems to me that either your view or the texts must be mistaken, then.
Guaranteed at least one of us has a faith view that is causing God to laugh per Psalm 2:4
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: My exegetical understanding of Acts 10:36 is "there is peace with God through Jesus Christ, who is Lord יהוה God of all." from historical Jewish cultural use of Lord meaning יהוה God in prayers and biblical text. Hence Peter declared Jesus is Lord יהוה God many times in the biblical text of Acts.
@Bill_Coley wrote: I see nothing in the text itself to support your view. In my view, your faith view - which I respect and celebrate - is determining your "exegetical understanding" of the Acts 10 text. Peter gives no indication that he believes Jesus is God, and in fact throughout his presentations in Acts gives every indication that he believes Jesus is NOT God.
Appreciate your faith view being firmly held. To me, some Pharisees valued their human years of scripture study more than the God who Loved them (so they were angry at Jesus for causing eyes born blind to see on the Sabbath).
Repeating request: Please explain purpose of "believe in" question to the man born blind in John 9.35 (NLT) When Jesus heard what had happened, he found the man and asked, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
Keep Smiling 😀
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Agree plus Logos Bible search for verses having three words: God is Light included Job 33:28 (NLT) in results
Agree
Not know about personal belief in Jesus as Lord יהוה God when the man born blind expressed disagreement with Pharisee sin claim.
Logic has timing assumption when the man born blind believed in Jesus as Lord יהוה God, which appears in John 9:35-38 dialogue.
The only timing assumption my argument makes is that the man born blind declares his uncertainty about Jesus' sinner status after receiving his sight from Jesus, which means he has the additional evidence of Jesus' healing power when he says he doesn't know whether Jesus is a sinner. In my view, that's more reason to believe the man does not think Jesus is God. If the one who restored his sight might be a sinner, the man clearly cannot believe Jesus is God.
I don't know what you mean by the sentence, "Not know about personal belief in Jesus as Lord יהוה God when the man born blind expressed disagreement with Pharisee sin claim."
Logically left puzzled by inconsistent hermeneutic approaches: "face value", "actions, not words", ...
I see no inconsistency at all between the the two sentiments. In the first, I simply said I take a writers at their words: When they use the past tense, they mean to tell us about something that HAS happened. That's grammar more than hermeneutics.
In the second, I responded to your question, "What biblical words in John 9 provide basis for "belief" assertion by the man born blind ?" In my view, in John 9, it's not words, but the action of Jesus' healing the man's sight that prompts the man's "belief" assertion. Had the man NOT received his sight, do you think he would have had a conversation with Jesus, let alone expressed his belief that Jesus is the Son of Man? I don't.
To me, one aspect of Jesus being God in human flesh is His intimate, intelligent knowledge about heart condition and sin cause in every human. My thoughts have three sources: myself, spiritual adversary, & Holy Spirit. Our spiritual adversary is the father of lies, who wants to disrupt human Love relationship in God using variety of ways & thoughts (some are quite subtle/crafty: close to truth while missing out: e.g. "worship" means profound gratitude, but not worship & Lord is different than יהוה God). Thankful for God peacefully answering my prayers so can test my thoughts by Thankfully praying them to God with desire for me to hear & obey God's Peace ruling in my heart.
I don't see how this responds to my assertion of the role of spiritual discernment in Jesus' knowing what God has in mind through the man's blindness.
Humanly "most obvious and sensible" depends on faith beliefs. What is "most obvious and sensible" to me declares Jesus being God all through the Bible, including John 9 and Acts 2 and Acts 4 and Acts 10 (as shown in my replies earlier in this thread). Historical Jewish daily prayers and scripture reading understood Lord = יהוה God so Jesus is Lord יהוה God, which contradicts faith belief that Jesus is not God.
Your convictions about historical Jewish prayers and scripture reading do nothing to ameliorate that fact that there is NO indication in John 9, Acts 2, Act 4, or Acts 10 that Jesus is God. None.
To me, One God's commUnity of Love having three voices (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) chose, anointed, appointed, & raised Jesus.
Where in the text of the cited chapters do you find support for your claim of a "commUnity of Love"? Where does Peter express support for such a view in ANY part of the NT?
Appreciate your faith view being firmly held. To me, some Pharisees valued their human years of scripture study more than the God who Loved them (so they were angry at Jesus for causing eyes born blind to see on the Sabbath).
I don't see how this responds at all to my claim that nothing in the text of the cited chapters suggests Peter believes Jesus is God. So please address that issue directly: Where in the text of Acts 2, Acts 4, or Acts 10 do you believe Peter says Jesus is God?
Repeating request: Please explain purpose of "believe in" question to the man born blind in John 9.35 (NLT) When Jesus heard what had happened, he found the man and asked, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
I addressed this question directly in a June 9 post:
My read of the John 9 scene is that Jesus asks the man whether he believes in his (Jesus') power and authority over disease, power and authority granted to him by God. After all, it is Jesus whom the man will credit as the one directly responsible his healing. Note, however, that the man knows Jesus didn't heal him on his own. In John 9.33, the man tells the Pharisees that Jesus is clearly "from God." The man doesn't assert that Jesus IS God! He contends that Jesus is FROM God.
One other clue that the man doesn't believe he's confessing Jesus' deity when he proclaims belief in the Son of Man: In John 9.25 the man tells the Pharisees that he doesn't know whether Jesus is a sinner. If he believed Jesus were God, there would be no question as to whether Jesus was a sinner.
As for Jesus' receiving worship. There is no indication in the text that Jesus received the man's response as worship of him as deity. As profound respect and gratitude? Yes! But there's no indication of worship as deity.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote:
@Wolfgang wrote: Did Jesus ask "Do you believe in God?" or perhaps "Do you believe that I am God?" Did the man ask "And who is God, that I may believe in Him?" Did Jesus then reply "You have seen God, and it is God Who is speaking to you" ? Did the healed blind man then say" God, I believe" and the text continues "and he worshiped God" ?
Concur with your modern understanding of dialog between Jesus and the man born blind in John 9:35-38, which expresses historical Jewish cultural meaning for pronouns plus "Son of Man" phrase as fulfillment of Daniel 7:13-14 prophecy along with Lord יהוה God in daily prayers and synagogue scripture readings.
No "modern understanding" involved here on my part ... just plain reading of text and reading of context - which, by the way, provides biblical understanding which the persons involved at the time in that biblical culture had and expressed in the words recorded in the text and context !!
When the Pharisees or the man born blind said "this man", what did they then at that time in their culture mean??
When a man used the words "believe in / trust in", did they mean something different from what a person means today??
When someone used the words "Lord" in addressing a man standing in front of them, did they then mean that God was standing in front of them??
The answer to the above questions is rather obvious, isn't it?!!
Reason for including historical Jewish cultural meaning is customary Jewish actions are mentioned in biblical text without explanation: e.g. last day of the festival in John 7:37 (assumed common experience between biblical authors and original audience).
Historical Jewish cultural meaning is exactly what I am concerned with and what I point out from the text and the context. What did the Jewish folks (such as the Pharisees, and others) mean when they used the term "man", "Lord", "Son of man", etc? I doubt you want to tell me that they had a Trinity colored understanding of Scripture ?? Jesus had no problems whatever to use the term "God", "true God", etc. or did he? Why then did he never claim to be that "God" and singled out his heavenly Father to alone (!!) be that God?
As for the historical Jewish cultural understanding of the word "worship" ... just note, that the word is used NOT ONLY for "worship as God", but also in reference to humans as "worship as king", "worship as master", etc. By the way, after 39 years of knowing her, I still "worship" a certain woman ... am I an idolator? or would the one considering me to be an idolator perhaps make the mistake of not understanding the different usages of the term "worship" ?
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@Bill_Coley wrote: I don't know what you mean by the sentence, "Not know about personal belief in Jesus as Lord יהוה God when the man born blind expressed disagreement with Pharisee sin claim."
The dialogue in John 9:35-38 declares the man born blind believed in Jesus, addressed Jesus as Lord יהוה God and worshipped Jesus (words: believe, Lord, and worship are in John 9:38). If Jesus is not God, then receiving worship as Lord יהוה God is sin against God that disqualifies Jesus from being Savior for anyone.
Prior to "believe in" dialogue with Jesus, humanly do not know if the man born blind had chosen to believe in Jesus as Lord יהוה God (since the man described Jesus as a prophet in John 9:17 and a man sent from God in John 9:33)
@Bill_Coley wrote: Had the man NOT received his sight, do you think he would have had a conversation with Jesus, let alone expressed his belief that Jesus is the Son of Man? I don't.
Without God's healing, humanly not know if the man born blind would have believed the many miracles God did in others for personal belief in Jesus as Lord יהוה God, OR if the man born blind would have been among the 3,000 on Shavu'ot who believed in Jesus as Lord יהוה God followed by being baptized in the name of Jesus OR if John 9 conversations would have been included in John's Gospel.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: Humanly "most obvious and sensible" depends on faith beliefs. What is "most obvious and sensible" to me declares Jesus being God all through the Bible, including John 9 and Acts 2 and Acts 4 and Acts 10 (as shown in my replies earlier in this thread). Historical Jewish daily prayers and scripture reading understood Lord = יהוה God so Jesus is Lord יהוה God, which contradicts faith belief that Jesus is not God.
@Bill_Coley wrote: Your convictions about historical Jewish prayers and scripture reading do nothing to ameliorate that fact that there is NO indication in John 9, Acts 2, Act 4, or Acts 10 that Jesus is God. None.
Wonder who is causing God to laugh ? Ps 37:13 (NLT) But the Lord just laughs, for he sees their day of judgment coming.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: To me, One God's commUnity of Love having three voices (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) chose, anointed, appointed, & raised Jesus.
@Bill_Coley wrote: Where in the text of the cited chapters do you find support for your claim of a "commUnity of Love"? Where does Peter express support for such a view in ANY part of the NT?
John 9:3 "power of God" spoken by Jesus => an intimate Loving voice in the plurality of One God speaking about power of One God.
John 9:35 “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” => one voice in One God referring to Daniel 7:13 prophecy about "son of man" interaction with "Ancient of Days" in heaven (two voices in One God's commUnity of Love who share one name, one image, one heart, one soul, ...)
In my reading of Acts 2, am seeing One God's commUnity of Love having three voices (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) in many verses, including Holy Spirit in Joel 2:28 quotation along with Lord יהוה God (Father & Son) in Psalm 16:2 quotation.
Logos Bible search for <Person God> OR <Person Jesus> OR <Person Holy Spirit> finds many results in John & Acts plus lots more.
Hermeneutic that clearly "sees" God and Jesus as completely separate entities cannot appreciate One God's commUnity of Love (since does not believe that Jesus is an intimate member in One God's commUnity of Love).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus p_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: Repeating request: Please explain purpose of "believe in" question to the man born blind in John 9.35 (NLT) When Jesus heard what had happened, he found the man and asked, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
@Bill_Coley wrote: My read of the John 9 scene is that Jesus asks the man whether he believes in his (Jesus') power and authority over disease, power and authority granted to him by God.
My apologies for glossing over your statement of belief about what is special to you about the man Jesus. To me, the question “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” includes what is special about Jesus to you plus much more so repeated my request for "believe in" explanation. Earlier in John 9:3, Jesus included phrase "power of God" in an answer about the man born blind, but Jesus did not use those words later when Jesus spoke with the man born blind. To me, the wording of “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” implies Jesus is God, who is worthy of worship while believing in Him.
Logos Bible search for "son of man" in the Old Testament finds God addresses the prophet Ezekiel as "son of man" many times along with addressing the prophet Daniel once and the prophecy that God gave Daniel 7:13, which the Jewish man born blind knew was a messianic prophecy.
@Wolfgang wrote: When the Pharisees or the man born blind said "this man", what did they then at that time in their culture mean??
John 9:29 documents Pharisees not knowing where "this man" is from. The man born blind knew the man Jesus gave sight to blind eyes.
@Wolfgang wrote: When a man used the words "believe in / trust in", did they mean something different from what a person means today??
Currently believe answer is yes. Thus far my research has not found a contradictory example.
Searching Jewish resources in Logos for (believe OR trust OR faith) BEFORE 1 WORD in found many results, including The Jewish New Testament Commentary that has many informative Jewish insights about John 9. Also found a culture & philosophy paragraph on page xxx in volume 3 of Flavius Josephus Collection (5 vols.) The The Jewish Encyclopedia (12 vols.) has many articles to consider, including ‘ALENU and APOLLOS. Introduction to volume 1 of Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus (4 vols.) includes a saying: “If you have ten Jews in a room, you have eleven opinions.” Discovering the Mystery of the Unity of God is A Theological Study on the Plurality and Tri-unity of God in the Hebrew Scriptures (reading "Dividing Point" section in Chapter 1 reminds me of several CD discussion replies along with bringing tears to my eyes). For book review purpose are two adjacent Chapter 1 paragraphs having "believe in" search results:
At the heart of this book lay three controversies: (1) Who is Jesus (Yeshua)? (2) How do the Scriptures present God? and (3) How does Rabbinic Judaism and biblical Christianity interpret those Scriptures? This book on “Discovering the Mystery of the Unity of God” will answer these three controversies from the perspective that the Bible will interpret itself. I was very interested in reading the book entitled “Why The Jews Rejected Jesus” by David Klinghoffer,20 but I came away from it very disappointed. In this book I found a lack of biblical scholarship, as well as a pre-set bias against the person and message of Yeshua and of true biblical faith. I freely admit to my own bias. The foundation of my bias is rooted in what the Hebrew Scripture and the New Covenant teach. The Scriptures are the only secure source of authority concerning the knowledge of God’s truth of Himself. The truth is not found in the bias of rabbis who have added to and often contradict the Written Law (Mosaic Law) by means of their Oral Law (interpretation of rabbis), which was and is their authoritative source. Nor is truth found in the bias of priests who value the tradition of the Church to be equal in authority to the Scriptures. Nor is truth found in Protestantism when the Scriptures is reinterpreted to suit their pre-conceived bias whether it be from higher criticism or by inconsistent hermeneutic beliefs.21 The true source of authority for the two different belief systems is another point of division between Rabbinic Judaism and true believers in Messiah Yeshua.
In the first century, as well as today, the core belief of Rabbinic Judaism teaches that God is one and not a unity of plurality. People need to have a good understanding of why Rabbinic Judaism believes that God is one (Deuteronomy 6:4), not two or three, as Jewish people understand the teachings of Christianity. The true believers of the Scriptures believe in the tri-unity of the Godhead and can substantiate that from the Hebrew Scriptures. But the rabbis equally believe, from the same Scriptures (and the Oral Law), that God is one and cannot allow for a God/man as is understood by New Testament believers. How can both get two different readings from the same Scriptures? Yeshua was very precise on who He was, and that was understood by the rabbinic leadership of Israel in the days of Yeshua. Yeshua received a strong negative and aggressive response from the Pharisees and Sadducees because of who He said He was (Jn 8:54–59; 10:30–31).
20 David Klinghoffer, Why the Jews Rejected Jesus (New York: Three Leaves Press: Doubleday, 2005).
21 Hermeneutics is the method of interpretation that the reader uses to determine the intent of the author.
Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum, “Foreword,” in Discovering the Mystery of the Unity of God: A Theological Study on the Plurality and Tri-Unity of God in the Hebrew Scriptures (San Antonio, TX: Ariel Ministries, 2010), 10–11.
Logos search results also included Do We Worship the Same God? Jews, Christians, and Muslims in Dialogue that is a collection of essays by various authors.
@Wolfgang wrote: When someone used the words "Lord" in addressing a man standing in front of them, did they then mean that God was standing in front of them??
Thank you for reminder to kneel and worship Yeshua (יהוה salvation) as Lord יהוה God today while looking forward to physically being in His Holy presence in One God's commUnity of Love.
1st John begins with human testimony about seeing and touching the man Yeshua, who is the Word of Life from the beginning (eternally God).
@Wolfgang wrote: Historical Jewish cultural meaning is exactly what I am concerned with and what I point out from the text and the context. What did the Jewish folks (such as the Pharisees, and others) mean when they used the term "man", "Lord", "Son of man", etc?
Intriguing question since some Pharisees valued their years of scripture study (with resulting oral law) more than loving God so their response to Jesus healing a Jewish man born blind on the Sabbath is anger (instead of adoration with worship of God). A number of places in Acts describes Jews who were angry about who Jesus is (so wanted to kill believers, which included Saul). Yet other Jews (and Gentiles) choose to believe in the plurality of One God that included Jesus being Lord יהוה God in human flesh (while Lord יהוה God continued being in Heaven).
@Wolfgang wrote: I doubt you want to tell me that they had a Trinity colored understanding of Scripture ??
Trinity is a word not found in the Bible. Please explain what Trinity means to you since suspect your understanding is really Tritheism (three gods).
@Wolfgang wrote: Jesus had no problems whatever to use the term "God", "true God", etc. or did he? Why then did he never claim to be that "God" and singled out his heavenly Father to alone (!!) be that God?
John 10:31-33 documents Jews picking up stones to kill Jesus for blasphemy because they understood the human standing in front of them declaring He is Lord יהוה God.
@Wolfgang wrote: As for the historical Jewish cultural understanding of the word "worship" ... just note, that the word is used NOT ONLY for "worship as God", but also in reference to humans as "worship as king", "worship as master", etc.
Logos Bible search for (king OR master) WITHIN 7 WORDS worship has three results in the ESV with sinful king worship: 2 Kings 21:3, Daniel 3:5 & Daniel 3:7. NLT has one verse, Zephaniah 1:9, with sinful master worship.
If Jesus is not God, then Jesus receiving worship as God, King, Lord, Master, ... is sin against God, which blemishes (disqualifies) Jesus from being Savior for anyone (actually Jesus would personally need a sin sacrifice).
@Wolfgang wrote: By the way, after 39 years of knowing her, I still "worship" a certain woman ... am I an idolator? or would the one considering me to be an idolator perhaps make the mistake of not understanding the different usages of the term "worship" ?
God tests human hearts so God truly knows if your "worship" of a certain woman is more important to you than God (if so, then your words are accurate).
Keep Smiling 😀
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The dialogue in John 9:35-38 declares the man born blind believed in Jesus, addressed Jesus as Lord יהוה God and worshipped Jesus (words: believe, Lord, and worship are in John 9:38). If Jesus is not God, then receiving worship as Lord יהוה God is sin against God that disqualifies Jesus from being Savior for anyone.
We're at an impasse here. In my view, the text does not support your claim that the man born blind "addressed Jesus as Lord God." The text simply does not say what you claim it says. In my view, you're reading your Christology into the text. You're welcome to do that, of course, but the text does not support your action.
Without God's healing, humanly not know if the man born blind would have believed the many miracles God did in others for personal belief in Jesus as Lord יהוה God, OR if the man born blind would have been among the 3,000 on Shavu'ot who believed in Jesus as Lord יהוה God followed by being baptized in the name of Jesus OR if John 9 conversations would have been included in John's Gospel.
My point is that his healing from Jesus creates the man's conversation with Jesus. Without the healing, perhaps there would have been something for them to talk about, but it wouldn't have been of much passionate concern to the man.
Wonder who is causing God to laugh ? Ps 37:13 (NLT) But the Lord just laughs, for he sees their day of judgment coming.
I don't see how this comment advances our exchange on the issue of the John 9 text. Please advise.
John 9:3 "power of God" spoken by Jesus => an intimate Loving voice in the plurality of One God speaking about power of One God.
I see nothing in John 9.3, in John 9, in John, or in the New Testament about Jesus' being a "Loving voice in the Plurality of One God."
John 9:35 “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” => one voice in One God referring to Daniel 7:13 prophecy about "son of man" interaction with "Ancient of Days" in heaven (two voices in One God's commUnity of Love who share one name, one image, one heart, one soul, ...)
I see nothing in John 9.3, in John 9, in John, or in the New Testament about Jesus' being a "one voice in One God." Nor do I see anything in Daniel 7 about the "son of man" figure's being God. (see Daniel 7.14, in which the son of man is given "dominion, glory and a kingdom...." One who was God would not need to be given such authority.)
In my reading of Acts 2, am seeing One God's commUnity of Love having three voices (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) in many verses, including Holy Spirit in Joel 2:28 quotation along with Lord יהוה God (Father & Son) in Psalm 16:2 quotation.
I see nothing in Acts 2, Joel 2, or Psalm 16 about a "commUnity of Love having three voices."
For the moment, I'll comment only on Psalm 16, where the Psalmist - whose commentary Peter attaches Jesus - is NOT a deity! He/She is rather a very human person who comes to God for "refuge." (Psalm 16.1) He/She is one who will not "run after another God." (Psalm 16.4) God gives this one who will be not be abandoned to Sheol (Psalm 16.10) counsel and instruction (Psalm 16.7) In my view, that's CLEARLY not a description of God. That's a description of a human being whom God rescues from death and other forms of loss in life.
Logos Bible search for <Person God> OR <Person Jesus> OR <Person Holy Spirit> finds many results in John & Acts plus lots more.
Hermeneutic that clearly "sees" God and Jesus as completely separate entities cannot appreciate One God's commUnity of Love (since does not believe that Jesus is an intimate member in One God's commUnity of Love).
In my view, it's not a matter of "appreciating" such a "commUnity." It's a matter of finding or not finding it in Scripture. As I hope I have made clear by now, I don't find it in Scripture. And with due respect, your posts have yet to show it to me.
To me, the wording of “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” implies Jesus is God, who is worthy of worship while believing in Him.
In my view, your conclusion here imports your Christology into the "Do you believe...?" question. In my view, such an importation is not supported by the text itself.
Logos Bible search for "son of man" in the Old Testament finds God addresses the prophet Ezekiel as "son of man" many times along with addressing the prophet Daniel once and the prophecy that God gave Daniel 7:13, which the Jewish man born blind knew was a messianic prophecy.
And Ezekiel and Daniel were very human, not divine, beings. To such an end, I contend, Jesus most frequently refers to himself as "son of man" in the Gospels.
John 10:31-33 documents Jews picking up stones to kill Jesus for blasphemy because they understood the human standing in front of them declaring He is Lord יהוה God.
It seems to me that the John 10 text makes a point you don't intend to make. The sequence of events in the scene is that...
- People pick up rocks (John 10.31)
- Jesus asks for which good works they intend to stone him (John 10.32)
- They say it's because he claims to be God (John 10.33)
- Jesus says (Psalm 82.6) says God calls people who receive God's word "gods." (John 10.34) How can they then be surprised when he - one whom God set apart - calls himself the "Son of God"? (John 10.36)
- Jesus also says evidence of God's presence with him ("in me") is the works that he does (John 10.38)
NOWHERE in the scene and nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus claim to be God. In fact, In John 10 he points to a Psalm text in which human beings like himself are called "gods." That's not the approach of one who would clam to be God.
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If Jesus is not God, then Jesus receiving worship as God, King, Lord, Master, ... is sin against God, which blemishes (disqualifies) Jesus from being Savior for anyone (actually Jesus would personally need a sin sacrifice).
??? Have ever actually read and not immediately in your mind re-interpreted and thus changed what - just for one example - Acts 2:22.36 say???
Acts 2:22 (AV) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 2:36 (AV) Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Thus, looking up to and showing reverence and worship to THE MAN Jesus AS LORD and AS MESSIAH (CHRIST) cannot be sin -- not on Jesus' part receiving it, nor on a person giving it -- as it is in harmony with what God made the man Jesus to be !
The truth regarding worship and Jesus is this: If Jesus would receive worship AS GOD, both He and the person worshiping him AS GOD would sin against God. Those who worship Jesus AS GOD are the idolators. God, the Father is the only One Who ALONE is true God and the only One Who must be worshiped AS GOD.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote:
John 9:3 "power of God" spoken by Jesus => an intimate Loving voice in the plurality of One God speaking about power of One God.
An "intimate Loving voice in the plruality of One God" ??? whose strange fantasy idea is this? Scripture nowhere (!!!) states ir teaches such an idea or concept.
Seems that you are harping heavily on this idea ... do you not realize that there is NO SUCH THING as "plurality of One God"? There is only "a plurality of gods" (false gods) mentioned in Scripture ... the One and true God of Scripture is a singular (and therefore no plurality) God (cp. the multitude of verses in which God is referred to as a singular "HE")
John 9:35 “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” => one voice in One God referring to Daniel 7:13 prophecy about "son of man" interaction with "Ancient of Days" in heaven (two voices in One God's commUnity of Love who share one name, one image, one heart, one soul, ...)
The Ancient of Days is the One true God ... not "one voice ( of several voices) in One God".
All your fancy word creations, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, such as "loving voice in plurality of One God", "One God's commUnity of Love" are unscriptural "nice fancy talk" that is in no way supported by Scripture and as such very deceiving.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: (words: believe, Lord, and worship are in John 9:38)
Curious about Lord meaning ? "from God" ? (To me, from contemporary Jewish prayers and synagogue usage, Lord means יהוה God)
@Bill_Coley wrote: believes in his (Jesus') power and authority over disease, power and authority granted to him by God
My apologies since my search of Logos for (power OR authority) WITHIN {Headword believe} did not find a "believe" article that agrees with your "believe" assertion, but did find:
BELIEVE or BELIEF. Perhaps, nothing is more simple than the act of believing; and yet, perhaps, nothing which hath created more mistakes and misapprehensions. In common life, we all perfectly understand what it is to believe one another: it is only in relation to our belief in God, that we find it difficult. If the servant of some kind and generous master was promised by him a favour, which he knew his master could perform, he would think it a base impeachment of his master’s character for any one to call the promise in question. But when the same kind of reasoning is brought forward concerning God, we overlook the impeachment of the Lord’s veracity, in doubting the assurance of what God hath promised. Now, to apply this to the case in point. God hath promised to the church eternal life; and this life is in his Son. To believe this on the simple word and authority of God, this is to give God the credit of God; and in doing this, we do in fact no more than the servant, as before stated, does to his kind master. The greatness of the promise, and the undeservedness of our hearts; these things have nothing to do in the business. It is the greatness, and honour, and credit of the Promiser, which becomes the only consideration with faith. And to take God at his word, and to trust in his promise as God; this is the whole sum and substance of believing. So that the simple act of faith, after all, is the simplest thing upon earth; for it is only believing “the record which God hath given of his Son.” (1 John 5:10.)
Robert Hawker, The Poor Man’s Concordance and Dictionary to the Sacred Scriptures (London: Ebenezer Palmer, 1828), 93–94.
@Bill_Coley wrote: My faith view is that the man does not worship Jesus as God, but rather expresses profound gratitude to Jesus for his healing
Searching Logos for (profound OR gratitude) WITHIN {Headword worship} found many results, including Collins English Dictionary whose definition list has one that concurs with your faith view assertion while another one concurs with my faith view
worship (ˈwɜːʃɪp) vb -ships, -shipping, -shipped US or -ships, -shiping, -shiped 1 tr to show profound religious devotion and respect to; adore or venerate (God or any person or thing considered divine) 2 tr to be devoted to and full of admiration for 3 intr to have or express feelings of profound adoration 4 intr to attend services for worship 5 tr obsolete to honour ▷ n 6 religious adoration or devotion 7 the formal expression of religious adoration; rites, prayers, etc 8 admiring love or devotion 9 archaic dignity or standing [Old English weorthscipe, from worth1 + -ship] > ˈworshipable adj > ˈworshipper n
vb verb
US United States
tr transitive
intr intransitive
▷ new part of speech
n noun
> derived word
adj adjective
Collins English Dictionary. (Glasgow: HarperCollins, 2006).
Greek word for worship is a cognate of two words (προσ preposition: to or toward): προσ|κυνέω (κυνέω = kiss, plead) worship; fall down and worship, kneel, bow low, fall at another’s feet
Barclay M. Newman, A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament (Stuttgart: Deutsche Bibelgesellschaft; United Bible Societies, 2010), 156.
@Bill_Coley wrote: To such an end, I contend, Jesus most frequently refers to himself as "son of man" in the Gospels.
"Son of Man" usage by Yeshua includes cloud & heaven imagery, which brings Daniel 7:13-14 prophecy to mind in observant Jews:
Matthew 24:30-31 (NLT) And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.
Mark 13:26-27 (NLT) Then everyone will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with great power and glory. And he will send out his angels to gather his chosen ones from all over the world—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven
Mark 14:62 (NLT) Jesus said, “I Am. And you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Luke 21:25-28 (NLT) “And there will be strange signs in the sun, moon, and stars. And here on earth the nations will be in turmoil, perplexed by the roaring seas and strange tides. People will be terrified at what they see coming upon the earth, for the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then everyone will see the Son of Man coming on a cloud with power and great glory. So when all these things begin to happen, stand and look up, for your salvation is near!”
John 3:10-15 (NLT) Jesus replied, “You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don’t understand these things? I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won’t believe our testimony. But if you don’t believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things? No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven. And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.
Please explain how the "Son of Man" came down from heaven along with having knowledge of heaven.
Also please explain the "Son of Man" will "send out his angels" ? command authority over heavenly servants of God ?
@Bill_Coley wrote: NOWHERE in the scene and nowhere in the Gospels does Jesus claim to be God.
NOWHERE can be NO WHERE or NOW HERE, which can reflect faith belief views: i.e. belief Jesus is not God = NO WHERE does Jesus claim to be God (also cannot recognize the plural unity of One God in commUnity of Love) while contrasting belief of Jesus is God = NOW HERE understanding of numerous claims by Jesus to be in the plural unity in One God. Thankful for living and learning to see more deity claims in a Jewish way.
@Bill_Coley wrote: In fact, In John 10 he points to a Psalm text in which human beings like himself are called "gods." That's not the approach of one who would clam to be God.
Noticed John 10 sequence of events left out an important relationship in John 10:38 (NLT) Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father.
How can the man Jesus be in God the Father ? (to me, the "in" intimate Love relationship is One True God)
@Wolfgang wrote: ??? Have ever actually read and not immediately in your mind re-interpreted and thus changed what
Sometimes immediate while other times (years later) has peaceful teaching from God's Holy Spirit for me to change.
@Wolfgang wrote: Thus, looking up to and showing reverence and worship to THE MAN Jesus AS LORD and AS MESSIAH (CHRIST) cannot be sin -- not on Jesus' part receiving it, nor on a person giving it -- as it is in harmony with what God made the man Jesus to be !
Assertion for worship of a man as God not being sin appears inconsistent with Exodus 34:14 (ESV) for you shall worship no other god, for the יהוה Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God
@Wolfgang wrote: The truth regarding worship and Jesus is this: If Jesus would receive worship AS GOD, both He and the person worshiping him AS GOD would sin against God. Those who worship Jesus AS GOD are the idolators. God, the Father is the only One Who ALONE is true God and the only One Who must be worshiped AS GOD.
If Jesus is not God, then concur with sin assessment (with John 9:38 being a scripture text example). If Jesus is an intimate part of the One Who ALONE is true God, then Jesus receiving worship AS GOD glorifies GOD.
@Wolfgang wrote: An "intimate Loving voice in the plruality of One God"
When Yeshua (יְהוָ֥ה salvation) was asked about the most important commandment in the Torah, he quoted "The Shema" whose first line (Deuteronomy 6:4) includes plural unity of One True God:
- Sh'ma שְׁמַ֖ע (Hear & Obey)
- Yisra'el יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל (Israel)
- Adonai יְהוָ֥ה (Lord)
- Eloheinu אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ (Plural God of us)
- Adonai יְהוָ֥ה (Lord)
- echad אֶחָֽד (One / Alone)
One True God (who alone is to be worshipped) is a plural unified God, which is consistent with plural pronouns and one unified image in Genesis 1:26 (ESV) "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." Searching 2016 ESV Bible for phrase "The LORD your God" finds 394 Old Covenant (Testament) verses having LORD (singular) your God (plural) so plural unified God has substantial scriptural support.
One True God has some distinguishable aspects in a commUnity of Love, which enables each voice of One True God to truly Love each other plus humans without being arrogant (consistent with God's Love nature as described in 1st Corinthians 13). One True God designed intimate Love relationships, which includes created humans (absolutely amazing).
Singular scripture pronouns "He" and "I" for One True God are consistent with One image for plural unified God. The Will and Word of One True God are intimately related so humans can live on God's Word to do God's Will. Psalm 2 includes prophecy about The Will of One True God becoming Father when The Word of One True God became a Holy zygote (egg) inside Mary for birth as a human Son. One True God's design for Yeshua was/is being human and God, who was/is Holy with Yeshua having free will choice to become the atonement sin sacrifice for every human: "Behold the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world."
Keep Smiling 😀
Post edited by Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus on -
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote:
Assertion for worship of a man as God not being sin appears inconsistent with Exodus 34:14 (ESV) for you shall worship no other god, for theיהוה Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God
Well, no one here has claimed that they are worshiping a man AS GOD !!!! ... except for you, who is falsely accusing others of doing so!
I do NOT worship the man Jesus as God ... thus I am NOT in conflict with Exo 34:14. The man born blind or the apostles and others who are mentioned in Scripture did NOT worship the man Jesus as God, and neither did Jesus receive and accept worship as God !!!
However, those who do worship the man Jesus as God are inconsistent with and violate the first great commandment by worshiping a man in addition to God as God.
If YOU worship the man Jesus AS GOD, then YOU are the problem ... and you will not eliminate your error by claiming that the man Jesus is not really a man but also God, nor by claiming that "to worship" always means "to worship AS GOD".,
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@Wolfgang wrote: ... claiming that "to worship" always means "to worship AS GOD"
Context for my reply about Collins English Dictionary definition 1 of worship (AS GOD) is scriptures including three words describing the man born blind in John 9:38 - believe, Lord, and worship. Jewish contemporary prayers of "The Shema" at least twice daily plus thousands of scripture readings each year use Lord meaning יהוה God. My reading of John 9:38 shows the Jewish man born blind worshipping Jesus AS GOD. Living and learning for me includes any worship being received by Jesus (whether AS GOD or something else) is a sin issue if Jesus is not God.
@Wolfgang wrote ... If YOU worship the man Jesus AS GOD, then YOU are the problem
Thankful for privilege of being able to worship Yeshua as Lord יהוה God and Father as Lord יהוה God and Holy Spirit in One True God 😍Thankful for One True God providing a Holy way for sinful humans to become Holy in One True God's commUnity of Love. Thankful for my prayers to One God that agree with Him about my sins ("same speak"), which have been answered by God's forgiveness that has included freely receiving God's Grace and Mercy along with not receiving all the just punishment that I earned & deserved. Looking forward to being in the Holy presence of One True God (complex unity) while on my knees worshipping 😍
Thankful for What is Christian Debate? guidelines that encourage contradictory opinions to be expressed about ideas (using church conversational tone) while avoiding Name-calling, Ad hominem attacks, and Reacting to a post's tone rather than responding to its content.
Keep Smiling 😀
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote
Living and learning for me includes any worship being received by Jesus (whether AS GOD or something else) is a sin issue if Jesus is not God.
Joh 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard [him] ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
Joh 6:69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
Joh 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Where is there even just one scripture which says something about "believe that Jesus is God" ?????
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@wolfgang wrote: Where is there even just one scripture which says something about "believe that Jesus is God" ?????
John 8:21-24 (ESV) So he said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come.” So the Jews said, “Will he kill himself, since he says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?” He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
Jesus knowing He is from above (Holy Heaven) is consistent with John 8:58 (ESV) Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” that was followed by unbelieving Jews picking stones with desire to kill Jesus for blasphemy.
If an unbelieving Jew, who picked up stone(s) to kill Yeshua, humanly died without believing Yeshua is Lord יהוה God, then they died in their sins with an eternal destination of dark torment (separated from God's commUnity of Love), which sadly fulfills John 8:24.
Logos Morph Search of Greek New Testament for (<Lemma = lbs/el/ἐγώ> ANDEQUALS <LogosMorphGr ~ R??NS??>) BEFORE 1 WORD <Lemma = lbs/el/εἰμί> finds 24 results in the Gospel of John, which includes John 8:24. Morph search of Swete's Septuagint (LXX) finds phrase usage by several people for identification, which includes One God: "I, I AM" in Exodus 3:6, 3:14, 7:5, 20:2; Leviticus 11:44-45; Deuteronomy 32:39; Isaiah 43:10, 43:25 (plus many more)
John 10:22-31 (ESV) At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.
What had unbelieving Jewish ears plainly heard so they wanted to kill Jesus for blasphemy ? (snatch & hand savior => Isaiah 43 context)
Isaiah 43:10-13 (ESV) “You are my witnesses,” declares the יהוה Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. I, I am the יהוה Lord, and besides me there is no savior. I declared and saved and proclaimed, when there was no strange god among you; and you are my witnesses,” declares the יהוה Lord, “and I am God. Also henceforth I am he; there is none who can deliver from my hand; I work, and who can turn it back?”
Keep Smiling 😀
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I give up on trying to have a proper exchange with you on a Biblical textual matter ... it appears impossible to do so. Enjoy your 😀
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@Wolfgang wrote: Where is there even just one scripture which says something about "believe that Jesus is God" ?????
One God lovingly provided scripture answers for your belief question so you have choice to believe Yeshua is Lord יהוה God (or not), which fits the nature of God's Love. Humans can eternal destination: with OR without God's Holy Love.
Personally living and learning to Love in One God, who is a complex unity. Hebrew scriptures correctly intermix singular and plural descriptions of One God for plural unity. Concerning the covenants: The New is in the Old concealed while the Old is in the New revealed.
@Wolfgang wrote: I give up on trying to have a proper exchange with you on a Biblical textual matter ... it appears impossible to do so. Enjoy your 😀
To me, proper Biblical approach is praying for One God (complex unity) to open eyes to see wonders from His Word followed by using grammatico-historical method for study: "What is the Truth in original context ?". Thankful for Holy Spirit answering prayer by guiding me to Isaiah 43:10-13 context for John 10:22-31 (along with other passages in this thread discussion). Thankful for Holy Spirit's peaceful ways for guiding/teaching Truth (along with convicting of sin) while being a comforting presence.
Thankful for Jewish "strings of pearls" approach for scripture to explain scripture: connect rich gems of scripture together.
Keep Smiling 😀
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Curious about Lord meaning ? "from God" ? (To me, from contemporary Jewish prayers and synagogue usage, Lord means יהוה God)
In my view, the applicable texts are clear that he who is "from" God (Jesus) is not himself God. There is no text, to my knowledge, where any other conclusion is merited.
My apologies since my search of Logos for (power OR authority) WITHIN {Headword believe} did not find a "believe" article that agrees with your "believe" assertion
I think the evidence is in the John 9 text. Jesus tells his disciples that the man's blindness will allow God's power to be displayed (John 9.3) The healing exemplifies Jesus as a conduit for God's power. The man born blind then declares his belief in Jesus as the "Son of Man." The man does NOT claim a belief that Jesus IS God (nor does Jesus ask him to do so!)
Searching Logos for (profound OR gratitude) WITHIN {Headword worship} found many results, including Collins English Dictionary whose definition list has one that concurs with your faith view assertion while another one concurs with my faith view
His healing is undoubtedly the single most profound experience of his life. In my view, OF COURSE he is grateful to Jesus for restoring his sight... whatever the results of your Logos search.
BTW, another thing you won't find in your Logos searches is Jesus claiming to be God, or Apostles such as Peter and Paul making that claim. By the logic of your post, the fact that you can't find such a claim in your searches is significant, perhaps dispositive?
worship (ˈwɜːʃɪp) vb -ships, -shipping, -shipped US or -ships, -shiping, -shiped 1 tr to show profound religious devotion and respect to; adore or venerate (God or any person or thing considered divine) 2 tr to be devoted to and full of admiration for 3 intr to have or express feelings of profound adoration 4 intr to attend services for worship 5 tr obsolete to honour ▷ n 6 religious adoration or devotion 7 the formal expression of religious adoration; rites, prayers, etc 8 admiring love or devotion 9 archaic dignity or standing [Old English weorthscipe, from worth1 + -ship] > ˈworshipable adj > ˈworshipper n
Profound gratitude could easily lead to worship as characterized in definitions 2 and 3.
Matthew 24:30-31; Mark 13:26-27; Mark 14:62; Luke 21:25-28
In NONE of these texts does Jesus claim that the Son of Man IS God. In fact, in Mark 14.62 Jesus predicts that the Son of Man will be seated "at God's right hand" (NLT). One seated at God's right hand cannot be God.
Please explain how the "Son of Man" came down from heaven along with having knowledge of heaven. Also please explain the "Son of Man" will "send out his angels" ? command authority over heavenly servants of God ?
You point to a challenging, even perplexing, saying that is not found anywhere other than in John, and in fact fits in only in John's Gospel. It's not clear to me what Jesus means. The New Interpreter's Bible Commentary on the verse suggests this is a post-ascension reference to the ascension that John puts in the mouth of Jesus BEFORE the ascension. Whatever is the truth about the phrase, such a vision is almost non-existent in the rest of the NT, and that Jesus also uses "Son of Man" as an apocalyptic reference - hence, the sending out of angels. As before, however, it's important to note that the John 3 text does NOT say Jesus is God. Jesus NEVER claims to be God.
NOWHERE can be NO WHERE or NOW HERE, which can reflect faith belief views: i.e. belief Jesus is not God = NO WHERE does Jesus claim to be God (also cannot recognize the plural unity of One God in commUnity of Love) while contrasting belief of Jesus is God = NOW HERE understanding of numerous claims by Jesus to be in the plural unity in One God. Thankful for living and learning to see more deity claims in a Jewish way.
I hope you will respect my posts enough to grant to the words I use the meaning I intend for them. The word "nowhere" has a specific, widely-understood meaning that has nothing to do with your dividing the word into the two words, "Now Here." My use of the word comports with that specific and widely-understood meaning. Your response, unfortunately, does not in any substantive manner engage the intended meaning of my assertion.
Noticed John 10 sequence of events left out an important relationship in John 10:38 (NLT) Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father. How can the man Jesus be in God the Father ? (to me, the "in" intimate Love relationship is One True God)
John 14.20 (NLT): "When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you."
When Jesus tells his followers that they will be in him and he will be in them, he clearly is NOT telling them they will BE him. The same is true when Jesus says the Father is in him and that he is in the Father.
In my previous post, I asked for clarification from you as to how the following comment of yours advanced our discussion of the John 9 text:
"Wonder who is causing God to laugh ? Ps 37:13 (NLT) But the Lord just laughs, for he sees their day of judgment coming."
In a similar vein, you also posted this...
"Guaranteed at least one of us has a faith view that is causing God to laugh per Psalm 2:4"
I ask again how such comments advance our discussion of the John 9 text.
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@Bill_Coley wrote: In my view, the applicable texts are clear that he who is "from" God (Jesus) is not himself God. There is no text, to my knowledge, where any other conclusion is merited.
John 8:21-24 (NLT with Greek word order emphasis) Later Jesus said to them again, “I am going away. You will search for me but will die in your sin. You cannot come where I am going.” The people asked, “Is he planning to commit suicide? What does he mean, ‘You cannot come where I am going’?” Jesus continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You belong to this world; I do not. That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM who I claim to be, you will die in your sins.”
Jesus knowing He is from above (Holy Heaven) is consistent with John 8:58 (NLT) Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I AM!” that was followed by unbelieving Jews picking stones with desire to kill Jesus for blasphemy.
If an unbelieving Jew, who picked up stone(s) to kill Yeshua, humanly died without believing Yeshua is Lord יהוה God, then they died in their sins with an eternal destination of dark torment (separated from God's commUnity of Love), which sadly fulfills John 8:24.
The Will and Word of One True God (complex unity) are intimately related so humans can live on God's Word to do God's Will. The Father's Will flows through The Son's Words to glorify One God.
John 10:22-33 (NLT) It was now winter, and Jesus was in Jerusalem at the time of Hanukkah, the Festival of Dedication. He was in the Temple, walking through the section known as Solomon’s Colonnade. The people surrounded him and asked, “How long are you going to keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.” Jesus replied, “I have already told you, and you don’t believe me. The proof is the work I do in my Father’s name. But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.” Once again the people picked up stones to kill him. Jesus said, “At my Father’s direction I have done many good works. For which one are you going to stone me?” They replied, “We’re stoning you not for any good work, but for blasphemy! You, a mere man, claim to be God.”
What had unbelieving Jewish ears plainly heard so they wanted to kill Yeshua for blasphemy ? (snatch & hand savior => Isaiah 43 context)
Isaiah 43:10-13 (NLT) “But you are my witnesses, O Israel!” says יהוה the Lord. “You are my servant. You have been chosen to know me, believe in me, and understand that I alone am God. There is no other God — there never has been, and there never will be. I, yes I, am יהוה the Lord, and there is no other Savior. First I predicted your rescue, then I saved you and proclaimed it to the world. No foreign god has ever done this. You are witnesses that I am the only God,” says יהוה the Lord. “From eternity to eternity I am God. No one can snatch anyone out of my hand. No one can undo what I have done.”
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: "Wonder who is causing God to laugh ? Ps 37:13 (NLT) But the Lord just laughs, for he sees their day of judgment coming."
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote: "Guaranteed at least one of us has a faith view that is causing God to laugh per Psalm 2:4"
@Bill_Coley wrote: I ask again how such comments advance our discussion of the John 9 text.
With fingers pointing at me, am Thankful for God laughing at my childish deity knowledge. Thankful for One God's commUnity of Love gently answering my prayers and peacefully growing me in Holiness, which has included revising previously learned human knowledge plus knowing that I have more changes coming for me to continue growing in God's Love 😍 Looking forward to my past hurts being pruned (John 15:1-2) so my stinking thinking decades later can be replaced by Godliness & Holiness.
Keep Smiling 😀
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John 8:21-24 (NLT with Greek word order emphasis).... Later Jesus said to them again, “I am going away. You will search for me but will die in your sin. You cannot come where I am going.” The people asked, “Is he planning to commit suicide? What does he mean, ‘You cannot come where I am going’?” Jesus continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You belong to this world; I do not. That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM who I claim to be, you will die in your sins.”
Jesus knowing He is from above (Holy Heaven) is consistent with John 8:58 (NLT) Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I AM!” that was followed by unbelieving Jews picking stones with desire to kill Jesus for blasphemy.
John's theologically matured pronouncement of Jesus' self-identity - e.g. there is no presentation of the "I Am" imagery in the Synoptic Gospels - does not change the fact that one who is "from" God cannot be God. A few verses later in chapter 8, for example, Jesus says "When you have lifted up the Son of Man on the cross, then you will understand that I AM he. I do nothing on my own but say only what the Father taught me. And the one who sent me is with me—he has not deserted me. For I always do what pleases him.” (John 8.28-29, NLT) The distinction/separation Jesus makes between himself - the Son of Man - and God - the one who sent and taught the Son of Man; the one without whom the Son of Man can do nothing - is clear.
Then there's John 8.42, in which the clear implication is that for Jesus, "Father" is synonymous for "God": "If God were your Father, you would love me, because I have come to you from God. I am not here on my own, but he sent me." That is, "If God were your Father in a way akin to the way God is my Father, you would love me because you would know that one who is your and my Father sent me." Again, Jesus presents a clear distinction between God and himself.
If an unbelieving Jew, who picked up stone(s) to kill Yeshua, humanly died without believing Yeshua is Lord יהוה God, then they died in their sins with an eternal destination of dark torment (separated from God's commUnity of Love), which sadly fulfills John 8:24.
The Will and Word of One True God (complex unity) are intimately related so humans can live on God's Word to do God's Will. The Father's Will flows through The Son's Words to glorify One God.
It's an old line of debate for us, but I continue to contend - in part because you have yet to disprove the claim - that there is no textual support for your assertions of a "commUnity of love" and, now a "complex unity." Your terms strike me as summaries of your personal theology - so to them you are of course entitled! - but not as terms for which there are textual underpinnings.
John 10:22-33 (NLT)...
What had unbelieving Jewish ears plainly heard so they wanted to kill Yeshua for blasphemy ? (snatch & hand savior => Isaiah 43 context)
In the cited text, Jesus addresses the question of whether he is the Messiah, NOT whether he is God. As I pointed out earlier in our exchange, Jesus' answer to the accusation is that he claims to be God's Son - one whom God sent - NOT God. (John 8.34-38)
Isaiah 43:10-13 (NLT) “But you are my witnesses, O Israel!” says יהוה the Lord. “You are my servant. You have been chosen to know me, believe in me, and understand that I alone am God. There is no other God — there never has been, and there never will be. I, yes I, am יהוה the Lord, and there is no other Savior. First I predicted your rescue, then I saved you and proclaimed it to the world. No foreign god has ever done this. You are witnesses that I am the only God,” says יהוה the Lord. “From eternity to eternity I am God. No one can snatch anyone out of my hand. No one can undo what I have done.”
God speaks here, not God's "Son" or "Messiah," and not a "Son of Man" figure. Notice also that the salvation declared in this Isaiah text has already happened, I assume in the exodus from Egypt ("no one can undo what I have done")
With fingers pointing at me, am Thankful for God laughing at my childish deity knowledge. Thankful for One God's commUnity of Love gently answering my prayers and peacefully growing me in Holiness, which has included revising previously learned human knowledge plus knowing that I have more changes coming for me to continue growing in God's Love 😍 Looking forward to my past hurts being pruned (John 15:1-2) so my stinking thinking decades later can be replaced by Godliness & Holiness.
Thanks for the clarification. In their original settings, your remarks about either my or your beliefs making God laugh did not come off to me as self-deprecation, especially in the company of the other dismissive remarks you've made about what you contended was my lack of "knowing" Jesus.
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AND YET ANOTHER TEXT FROM MY DAILY BIBLE READING:
The New Testament portion of my daily Bible reading today took me through Acts 17, in the last half of which Paul debates religious but non-Christian people during a visit to Athens. Near the end of his presentation/response to the Athenians and the religious symbols/idols he's seen in the city, Paul says this: (all emphases added)
29 Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (Ac 17:29–31). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.
Paul clearly refers to Jesus as a "man" whom God had both appointed and then raised from the dead. The question I ask is, what conclusion(s) about the deity of Jesus did Paul intend for the Athenians to reach when they heard those words? Isn't the most common sensible meaning Paul intended to communicate that Jesus was not God? that God was God and Jesus was a human (a "man") God had appointed and raised? Where is there ANY hint, suggestion, or intimation in Paul's words to the Athenians that Jesus is God? Isn't Paul's message to the Athenians - that Jesus was a "man" God raised - precisely consistent with Peter's word in Acts 4.10...
10 Let me clearly state to all of you and to all the people of Israel that he was healed by the powerful name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, the man you crucified but whom God raised from the dead.
Tyndale House Publishers. (2013). Holy Bible: New Living Translation (Ac 4:10). Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale House Publishers.
... and also with Paul's message later in Acts...
38 “Brothers, listen! We are here to proclaim that through this man Jesus there is forgiveness for your sins. 39 Everyone who believes in him is made right in God’s sight—something the law of Moses could never do.
Tyndale House Publishers. (2013). Holy Bible: New Living Translation (Ac 13:38–39). Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale House Publishers.
I continue to claim that the number of NT texts whose most sensible interpretation is that Jesus is not God is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH higher than the number of texts whose interpretation is that Jesus is God. In light of that reality, the question is, which group of texts - the much, much larger group or the much, much smaller group - do we accept as reporting the truth about Jesus?
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@Bill_Coley wrote:
I continue to claim that the number of NT texts whose most sensible interpretation is that Jesus is not God is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH higher than the number of texts whose interpretation is that Jesus is God. In light of that reality, the question is, which group of texts - the much, much larger group or the much, much smaller group - do we accept as reporting the truth about Jesus?
I would consider the following principle for interpretation must be observed in order to arrive at a correct understanding of Scripture:
Concerning any subject or topic, any few seemingly difficult or contradicting verses must be understood and interpreted in light of the many clear and plain verses on the same subject!
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@Bill_Coley wrote: there is no presentation of the "I Am" imagery in the Synoptic Gospels
Logos Bible search for (<Lemma = lbs/el/ἐγώ> ANDEQUALS <LogosMorphGr ~ R??NS??>) BEFORE 1 WORD <Lemma = lbs/el/εἰμί> includes Mark 14:62 with three Hebrew scripture images: "I AM" plus two more (followed by Jewish High Priest wanting Jesus put to death for blasphemy). Synoptic Gospels have some "I AM" uses while John's Gospel has more.
@Bill_Coley wrote: does not change the fact that one who is "from" God cannot be God.
According to absolute monotheism belief, this assertion appears absolutely true. From plural unity belief view, this statement lacks understanding about One God's commUnity of Love. Human sports counter example is a player/coach. Coach role decides who will play so the player can be the one "chosen" by the coach (same person). Human business counter example is the President of a corporation deciding who should represent the corporation during negotiations, which could be the President so one person "from" the corporation is the same person for negotiating.
@Bill_Coley wrote: Again, Jesus presents a clear distinction between God and himself.
Observation: "clear distinction" is a way to express absolute monotheism belief. Missing from "clear distinction" is an explanation for Jesus knowing He is from above (while humans are from below).
@Bill_Coley wrote: It's an old line of debate for us, but I continue to contend - in part because you have yet to disprove the claim - that there is no textual support for your assertions of a "commUnity of love" and, now a "complex unity." Your terms strike me as summaries of your personal theology - so to them you are of course entitled! - but not as terms for which there are textual underpinnings.
Plural unity of One God reflects complex intermingling of singular/plural nouns, pronouns, and verbs with אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ (Plural God).
What word(s) describe One God using plural pronouns with singular image (unity) in Genesis 1:26 (NLT) Then God said, “Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us.
Seems if One God was an absolute monotheist, then Genesis chapter 1 would use a singular noun instead of plural elohim, which needs a minimum of three since Hebrew nouns can have singular, dual, and plural forms.
Was plural elohim mistakenly used instead of a singular noun for God in Genesis chapter 1 ?
- If yes, then what is trustworthy in the Bible ?
- If no, then what is plural in One God ?
When Yeshua (יְהוָ֥ה salvation) was asked about the most important commandment in the Torah (Teaching), he quoted "The Shema" whose first line (Deuteronomy 6:4) includes plural unity of One True God:
- Sh'ma שְׁמַ֖ע (Hear & Obey)
- Yisra'el יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל (Israel)
- Adonai יְהוָ֥ה (Lord)
- Eloheinu אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ (Plural God of us)
- Adonai יְהוָ֥ה (Lord)
- echad אֶחָֽד (One / Alone)
One True God (who alone is to be worshipped) is a plural unified God, which is consistent with plural pronouns and one unified image in Genesis 1:26. Searching NLT Bible for phrase "The LORD your God" finds 399 Old Covenant (Testament) verses having LORD (Hebrew singular) your God (Hebrew plural) so plural unified God has substantial scriptural support. English translation of Hebrew Plural elohim uses "God" for One True God in NLT along with "gods" or "idols" when refering to false gods: e.g. Deuteronomy 7:25, 12:3
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus wrote:John 10:22-33 (NLT)...
What had unbelieving Jewish ears plainly heard so they wanted to kill Yeshua for blasphemy ? (snatch & hand savior => Isaiah 43 context)
@Bill_Coley wrote: In the cited text, Jesus addresses the question of whether he is the Messiah, NOT whether he is God.
Observation is the word Messiah not appearing in the cited text so reply leaves question unanswered about what unbelieving Jews heard so they wanted to kill Yeshua for blasphemy (per Leviticus 24:15-16).
From my perspective, the ones who thought Jesus guilty of blasphemy (profaning God's Name) had an absolute monotheistic belief; could not believe that any part of One God could be in human flesh while remembering Psalm 53:2-3 (NLT) אֱלֹהִים God looks down from heaven on the entire human race; he looks to see if anyone is truly wise, if anyone seeks אֱלֹהִים God. But no, all have turned away; all have become corrupt. No one does good, not a single one!
Isaiah 43:10-13 (NLT) “But you are my witnesses, O Israel!” says יהוה the Lord. “You are my servant. You have been chosen to know me, believe in me, and understand that I alone am God. There is no other God — there never has been, and there never will be. I, yes I, am יהוה the Lord, and there is no other Savior. First I predicted your rescue, then I saved you and proclaimed it to the world. No foreign god has ever done this. You are witnesses that I am the only God,” says יהוה the Lord. “From eternity to eternity I am God. No one can snatch anyone out of my hand. No one can undo what I have done.”
@Bill_Coley wrote: God speaks here, not God's "Son" or "Messiah," and not a "Son of Man" figure. Notice also that the salvation declared in this Isaiah text has already happened, I assume in the exodus from Egypt ("no one can undo what I have done")
Concur God speaks in Isaiah 43:10-13 with Jesus referring to “From eternity to eternity I am God. No one can snatch anyone out of my hand. No one can undo what I have done.” using snatching out of hand descriptions in John 10:28-29
If Jesus is not Lord יהוה God, then Jesus is not Savior ("from eternity to eternity") => "There is no other God — there never has been, and there never will be. I, yes I, am יהוה the Lord, and there is no other Savior."
Keep Smiling 😀
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If Jesus is not Lord יהוה God, then Jesus is not Savior ("from eternity to eternity") => "There is no other God — there never has been, and there never will be. I, yes I, am יהוה the Lord, and there is no other Savior."
Bible reading included another verse supporting idea that If Jesus is not Lord יהוה God, then Jesus is not Savior => Isaiah 45:21-23 (NLT) Was it not I, יהוה the Lord? For there is no other אֱלֹהִים God but me, a righteous God and Savior. There is none but me. Let all the world look to me for salvation! For I am God; there is no other. I have sworn by my own name; I have spoken the truth, and I will never go back on my word: Every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will declare allegiance to me.”
Keep Smiling 😀
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For I am God; there is no other.
Hmn .... and I was told God was Three ( Father, Son and Holy Ghost) and thus I would have expected more a "For WE are God, there is no other".
The personal pronoun "I" is SINGULAR, isn't it? A unit of more than one member would not be speaking of themselves as a singular person, or what?
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