Wine Usage in the Bible: Encouraged or Be avoided at all cost?
Comments
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@GaoLu said: "I probably won't go away but I am hoping for engagement with people who have similar interests. I am enjoying other forums these days. Your own forum is a great place with a lot of positive potentials"!
GaoLu,
Listen to the one who has been there (David). Similarity can be "boring". At CD, you get the best of two worlds: Challenging stimulation and truth. CM -
Reformed,
May I remind you of others in CD who shares similar views as yours. However, a majority is not a moral standard for correct biblical interpretation. Fellow users unfortunately on records as saying...@Bill_Coley said:
There are many, many others, but I think those make the point: Wine/alcohol consumption is not, in and of itself, bad. Drunkenness, abuse, addiction, of course, are VERY different stories. But consumption per se is not wrong. (For the record, I choose not to drink alcohol in any form, at any occasion.)
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@dct112685 said: I also choose not to drink any as well, but am not opposed to it.
These are classic examples of the "Moderationist Position". In light of the recent research and reality, the aforementioned men above and other pastors (responsible spiritual leaders) must reconsider their counsel and practices to honor God and life. How could something that causes "drunkenness, abuse, and addiction" is "not in and of itself, bad"?
God made the man. He knows our bodies and how to get the most out of this life. As a matter of facts "Wine/alcohol consumption" is not one of them. We must not only refrain from consuming any intoxicating beverages (Wine/alcohol) but must be "opposed to it".
Dave, Wolfgang, what say ye? CM
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@C_M_ said:
These are classic examples of the "Moderationist Position". In light of the recent research and reality, the aforementioned men above and other pastors (responsible spiritual leaders) must reconsider their counsel and practices to honor God and life. How could something that causes "drunkenness, abuse, and addiction" is "not in and of itself, bad"?In a manner similar to the way alcohol "causes drunkenness, abuse, and addiction," doesn't eating food "cause" obesity, malnutrition, and medical conditions such as some forms of diabetes, heart disease, and others? So by the logic of your argument about the use of alcohol, CM, don't you also have to argue that eating food is, "in and of itself, bad" because it "causes" obesity, et al?
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@C_M_ said:
Reformed,
May I remind you of others in CD who shares similar views as yours. However, a majority is not a moral standard for correct biblical interpretation. Fellow users unfortunately on records as saying...@Bill_Coley said:
There are many, many others, but I think those make the point: Wine/alcohol consumption is not, in and of itself, bad. Drunkenness, abuse, addiction, of course, are VERY different stories. But consumption per se is not wrong. (For the record, I choose not to drink alcohol in any form, at any occasion.)
>
@dct112685 said: I also choose not to drink any as well, but am not opposed to it.
These are classic examples of the "Moderationist Position". In light of the recent research and reality, the aforementioned men above and other pastors (responsible spiritual leaders) must reconsider their counsel and practices to honor God and life. How could something that causes "drunkenness, abuse, and addiction" is "not in and of itself, bad"?
God made the man. He knows our bodies and how to get the most out of this life. As a matter of facts "Wine/alcohol consumption" is not one of them. We must not only refrain from consuming any intoxicating beverages (Wine/alcohol) but must be "opposed to it".
Dave, Wolfgang, what say ye? CM
I say that is adding to Scripture and not correct.
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@Bill_Coley said:
@C_M_ said:
These are classic examples of the "Moderationist Position". In light of the recent research and reality, the aforementioned men above and other pastors (responsible spiritual leaders) must reconsider their counsel and practices to honor God and life. How could something that causes "drunkenness, abuse, and addiction" is "not in and of itself, bad"?In a manner similar to the way alcohol "causes drunkenness, abuse, and addiction," doesn't eating food "cause" obesity, malnutrition, and medical conditions such as some forms of diabetes, heart disease, and others? So by the logic of your argument about the use of alcohol, CM, don't you also have to argue that eating food is, "in and of itself, bad" because it "causes" obesity, et al?
Thanks, Bill for your response to my expressions on wine (alcohol) in light of the Word. The short answer to your second question, first of all, is ABSOLUTELY NO! That is, "eating food...in and of itself, bad" because it "causes" obesity, et al"!
The premise of your first question...
@Bill_Coley said: In a manner similar to the way alcohol "causes drunkenness, abuse, and addiction," doesn't eating food "cause" obesity, malnutrition, and medical conditions such as some forms of diabetes, heart disease, and others?
... is out of kilter to start. Alcohol, to my understanding, is not a daily requirement to sustain human life. It is also my understanding that alcohol has no nutritional value to promote or sustain life. So your point above is muted!
The Bible has made clear what it takes to sustain man by the way of food consumption, before and after the flood (Gen. 1:29-30; Lev. 11; Deut. 14; Gen. 9:3, and other NT texts). After the flood, the drinking in fermented sustain showed its destructiveness (Noah/sons).
Yes, overeating or not eating enough healthy foods can damage one's health and affect one's overall well-being. The point is not eating or eating too much of what should be consumed. Alcohol is not a part of the basic food groups. The abuse of nutritional foods (too little or too much) is no reason or justification for anyone to consume alcohol as though it's the cure to obesity, malnutrition, bulimia, or anorexia. Your first point is one that an alcoholic would make to continue drunkenness.
The phrase "In a manner similar to the way alcohol" is not lost on me. Even with this in mind, it's a solution, looking for a problem and a wreck, looking for an accident. All of a person belongs to the Lord when he or she accepts Jesus as Savior. CM
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@C_M_ said:
@Bill_Coley said:
@C_M_ said:
These are classic examples of the "Moderationist Position". In light of the recent research and reality, the aforementioned men above and other pastors (responsible spiritual leaders) must reconsider their counsel and practices to honor God and life. How could something that causes "drunkenness, abuse, and addiction" is "not in and of itself, bad"?In a manner similar to the way alcohol "causes drunkenness, abuse, and addiction," doesn't eating food "cause" obesity, malnutrition, and medical conditions such as some forms of diabetes, heart disease, and others? So by the logic of your argument about the use of alcohol, CM, don't you also have to argue that eating food is, "in and of itself, bad" because it "causes" obesity, et al?
Thanks, Bill for your response to my expressions on wine (alcohol) in light of the Word. The short answer to your second question, first of all, is ABSOLUTELY NO! That is, "eating food...in and of itself, bad" because it "causes" obesity, et al"!
The premise of your first question...
@Bill_Coley said: In a manner similar to the way alcohol "causes drunkenness, abuse, and addiction," doesn't eating food "cause" obesity, malnutrition, and medical conditions such as some forms of diabetes, heart disease, and others?
... is out of kilter to start. Alcohol, to my understanding, is not a daily requirement to sustain human life. It is also my understanding that alcohol has no nutritional value to promote or sustain life. So your point above is muted!
The Bible has made clear what it takes to sustain man by the way of food consumption, before and after the flood (Gen. 1:29-30; Lev. 11; Deut. 14; Gen. 9:3, and other NT texts). After the flood, the drinking in fermented sustain showed its destructiveness (Noah/sons).
Cherry picking examples....
Yes, overeating or not eating enough healthy foods can damage one's health and affect one's overall well-being. The point is not eating or eating too much of what should be consumed. Alcohol is not a part of the basic food groups. The abuse of nutritional foods (too little or too much) is no reason or justification for anyone to consume alcohol as though it's the cure to obesity, malnutrition, bulimia, or anorexia. Your first point is one that an alcoholic would make to continue drunkenness.
The phrase "In a manner similar to the way alcohol" is not lost on me. Even with this in mind, it's a solution, looking for a problem and a wreck, looking for an accident. All of a person belongs to the Lord when he or she accepts Jesus as Savior. CM
Abuse of anything can make anything bad.
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@C_M_ said:
The premise of your first question...@Bill_Coley said: In a manner similar to the way alcohol "causes drunkenness, abuse, and addiction," doesn't eating food "cause" obesity, malnutrition, and medical conditions such as some forms of diabetes, heart disease, and others?
... is out of kilter to start. Alcohol, to my understanding, is not a daily requirement to sustain human life. It is also my understanding that alcohol has no nutritional value to promote or sustain life. So your point above is muted!
Your argument to which I responded, CM, had nothing to do with whether alcohol is a "daily requirement to sustain life," or whether it has any nutritional value. Instead, your argument was that the outcomes alcohol creates mean that "in and of itself" the substance is "bad." You phrased that argument in the form of a question:
"How could something that causes 'drunkenness, abuse, and addiction' is 'not in and of itself, bad'?"
It was only to that specific formulation - that which causes bad outcomes is "in and of itself, bad" - that I responded.
The Bible has made clear what it takes to sustain man by the way of food consumption, before and after the flood (Gen. 1:29-30; Lev. 11; Deut. 14; Gen. 9:3, and other NT texts). After the flood, the drinking in fermented sustain showed its destructiveness (Noah/sons).
I contend that it's not the consumption of alcohol per se that produces destructiveness - no more than the consumption of food per se produces obesity. Rather is it is MIS-consumption of alcohol - the abuse of alcohol - that causes destructiveness, just as it is the mis-consumption of food - the eating of too much food, or the wrong foods - that causes bad outcomes.
I personally am evidence of the fact that consumption of alcohol is not, in and of itself, a bad thing. I have consumed alcohol. Never to drunkenness, and never as a lifestyle practice, but I HAVE consumed it... never to any ill or destructive effects.
Yes, there ARE people for whom the consumption of alcohol is a bad thing. But their circumstances - often medical/physical in nature - are specific to them, and do not report alcohol's universal characteristics. For most people in most circumstances, a single beer or cocktail produces no bad outcomes.
Other consumption patterns CAN cause tragic outcomes, of course! Over the years, I've conducted the funerals of scores of people who drank themselves to death. But what killed them wasn't the fact that they consumed alcohol; it was that they abused it. Similarly, over the years I've conducted the funerals of dozens of people whose diets directly contributed to the cause of their deaths. But what killed those people was not the fact that they ate food; it was that they ate the wrong foods, or too much food, or both.
Yes, overeating or not eating enough healthy foods can damage one's health and affect one's overall well-being. The point is not eating or eating too much of what should be consumed. Alcohol is not a part of the basic food groups. The abuse of nutritional foods (too little or too much) is no reason or justification for anyone to consume alcohol as though it's the cure to obesity, malnutrition, bulimia, or anorexia. Your first point is one that an alcoholic would make to continue drunkenness.
I made no connection between the consumption of alcohol and cures to any disease or other condition. Hence, I don't understand your conclusion that a person with alcoholism would make my argument. Please explain.
The phrase "In a manner similar to the way alcohol" is not lost on me. Even with this in mind, it's a solution, looking for a problem and a wreck, looking for an accident. All of a person belongs to the Lord when he or she accepts Jesus as Savior. CM
I contend that my phrase is simply a logical outcome of your argument regarding alcohol.
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@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
The Bible has made clear what it takes to sustain man by the way of food consumption, before and after the flood (Gen. 1:29-30; Lev. 11; Deut. 14; Gen. 9:3, and other NT texts). After the flood, the drinking in fermented sustain showed its destructiveness (Noah/sons).Cherry picking examples....
Reformed,
"Cherry picking examples...."? Please, tell me, what orchard and what tree, you claimed I cherry picked my "examples"? Are you suggesting my examples are misleading, totally incorrect or incomplete? If either, please explain your position. Your trend seems to claim I am "out of context", but NOT say what the context is. If you're going to say something is not, please be willing to say what is. Reformed, I encourage you to make your case or allow my point to stand.
@C_M_ said: Yes, overeating or not eating enough healthy foods can damage one's health and affect one's overall well-being. The point is not eating or eating too much of what should be consumed. Alcohol is not a part of the basic food groups. The abuse of nutritional foods (too little or too much) is no reason or justification for anyone to consume alcohol as though it's the cure to obesity, malnutrition, bulimia, or anorexia. Your first point is one that an alcoholic would make to continue drunkenness.
Abuse of anything can make anything bad.
What are you trying to say here?
@reformed said: "Abuse of anything can make anything bad".
Do you want to rephrase this statement? A thing that is "bad" is so of its own, rather abused or not. Alcohol consumption is one such thing.
As for healthy foods (Bible calls, "clean"), exercise, sex, water, or charitable works, when abused, it doesn't make these things "bad". They need managing, balancing or self-control. Basic necessities of life can be abused, but they are NEVER "bad"! Let's keep it real. CM
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@C_M_ said:
@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
The Bible has made clear what it takes to sustain man by the way of food consumption, before and after the flood (Gen. 1:29-30; Lev. 11; Deut. 14; Gen. 9:3, and other NT texts). After the flood, the drinking in fermented sustain showed its destructiveness (Noah/sons).Cherry picking examples....
Reformed,
"Cherry picking examples...."? Please, tell me, what orchard and what tree, you claimed I cherry picked my "examples"? Are you suggesting my examples are misleading, totally incorrect or incomplete? If either, please explain your position. Your trend seems to claim I am "out of context", but NOT say what the context is. If you're going to say something is not, please be willing to say what is. Reformed, I encourage you to make your case or allow my point to stand.
Sure, you provide examples of the abuse of alcohol which are not the only use cases in Scripture.
@C_M_ said: Yes, overeating or not eating enough healthy foods can damage one's health and affect one's overall well-being. The point is not eating or eating too much of what should be consumed. Alcohol is not a part of the basic food groups. The abuse of nutritional foods (too little or too much) is no reason or justification for anyone to consume alcohol as though it's the cure to obesity, malnutrition, bulimia, or anorexia. Your first point is one that an alcoholic would make to continue drunkenness.
Abuse of anything can make anything bad.
What are you trying to say here?
@reformed said: "Abuse of anything can make anything bad".
Do you want to rephrase this statement? A thing that is "bad" is so of its own, rather abused or not. Alcohol consumption is one such thing.
Except that it is not. If alcohol was a bad thing, why would Jesus provide it at a wedding? Why would he give it at the Last Supper? Your argument doesn't make any sense nor is it based in reality or Scripture.
As for healthy foods (Bible calls, "clean"), exercise, sex, water, or charitable works, when abused, it doesn't make these things "bad". They need managing, balancing or self-control. Basic necessities of life can be abused, but they are NEVER "bad"! Let's keep it real. CM
Alcohol is the same thing.
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@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
"Cherry picking examples...."? Please, tell me, what orchard and what tree, you claimed I cherry picked my "examples"? Are you suggesting my examples are misleading, totally incorrect or incomplete? If either, please explain your position. Your trend seems to claim I am "out of context", but NOT say what the context is. If you're going to say something is not, please be willing to say what is. Reformed, I encourage you to make your case or allow my point to stand.>
Sure, you provide examples of the abuse of alcohol which are not the only use cases in Scripture.
Not so. Please re-read my post of the "good" use of wine -- "fruit of the vine" (unfermented) and bad (fermented) page one of this thread.
___________________ ___________ ___________ ________________ ______________
@reformed said: "Abuse of anything can make anything bad".
@C_M_ said:Do you want to rephrase this statement? A thing that is "bad" is so of its own, rather abused or not. Alcohol consumption is one such thing.
@ reformed said: Except that it is not. If alcohol was a bad thing, why would Jesus provide it at a wedding? Why would he give it at the Last Supper? Your argument doesn't make any sense nor is it based in reality or Scripture.Reformed,
1. Why do you say Alcohol is not bad?
2. What proof do you have to offer?
3. Again, what nutritional value Alcohol has for the body that demands daily consumption?
4. Is Alcohol a part of the basic food group for one to sustain life? Please be factual.@ reformed said: If alcohol was a bad thing, why would Jesus provide it at a wedding?
You must first acknowledge that there are two wines in the Bible -- Good wine (unfermented) and bad wine (fermented).
@ reformed said: Why would he give it at the Last Supper?
Jesus made the "fruit of the vine" good wine at the wedding at Cana and offered the "fruit of the vine" "good wine" at the Last Supper. Are you saying, everytime wine is mentioned in the Bible, it was fermented? The God who created all things would perform a miracle to provide fermented drink to a wedding? Are you trying to say Jesus was a winebibber?
@ reformed said: "Your argument doesn't make any sense nor is it based in reality or Scripture".
Could this statement be your positional statement in a mirror?
As for healthy foods (Bible calls, "clean"), exercise, sex, water, or charitable works, when abused, it doesn't make these things "bad". They need managing, balancing or self-control. Basic necessities of life can be abused, but they are NEVER "bad"! Let's keep it real. CM
Alcohol is the same thing.
Again, you know this is not so! Alcohol is NOT one of the basic necessities of life. It never had and never will be. Alcohol destroys. One can live without Alcohol or fermented drink. Please let truth see the light of day. Youth and young adults need spiritual leaders to send a clear message on the usage of alcohol. It's a real killer of the past, the present, and the future. When it comes to alcohol and fermented drinks the carnage, history and the Bible are on my side. This is not a game. People are dying as we speak. Alcohol is not an innocent substance in society and among young generation. A person of this cohort should be able to look to Pastors for truth, even if it's not popular. Be one of these Pastors. CM
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@C_M_ said:
@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
"Cherry picking examples...."? Please, tell me, what orchard and what tree, you claimed I cherry picked my "examples"? Are you suggesting my examples are misleading, totally incorrect or incomplete? If either, please explain your position. Your trend seems to claim I am "out of context", but NOT say what the context is. If you're going to say something is not, please be willing to say what is. Reformed, I encourage you to make your case or allow my point to stand.>
Sure, you provide examples of the abuse of alcohol which are not the only use cases in Scripture.
Not so. Please re-read my post of the "good" use of wine -- "fruit of the vine" (unfermented) and bad (fermented) page one of this thread.
___________________ ___________ ___________ ________________ ______________
@reformed said: "Abuse of anything can make anything bad".
@C_M_ said:Do you want to rephrase this statement? A thing that is "bad" is so of its own, rather abused or not. Alcohol consumption is one such thing.
@ reformed said: Except that it is not. If alcohol was a bad thing, why would Jesus provide it at a wedding? Why would he give it at the Last Supper? Your argument doesn't make any sense nor is it based in reality or Scripture.Reformed,
1. Why do you say Alcohol is not bad?Here is the better question, why do you say that it is?
- What proof do you have to offer?
Jesus served alcohol multiple times.
- Again, what nutritional value Alcohol has for the body that demands daily consumption?
How is that relevant?
- Is Alcohol a part of the basic food group for one to sustain life? Please be factual.
Again, how is that relevant?
@ reformed said: If alcohol was a bad thing, why would Jesus provide it at a wedding?
You must first acknowledge that there are two wines in the Bible -- Good wine (unfermented) and bad wine (fermented).
I don't acknowledge that as there is no support for that.
@ reformed said: Why would he give it at the Last Supper?
Jesus made the "fruit of the vine" good wine at the wedding at Cana and offered the "fruit of the vine" "good wine" at the Last Supper. Are you saying, everytime wine is mentioned in the Bible, it was fermented? The God who created all things would perform a miracle to provide fermented drink to a wedding? Are you trying to say Jesus was a winebibber?
Wine is wine, and it is fermented. This idea of good wine and bad wine meaning alcoholic vs non alcoholic is absurd without any textual or historical support.
@ reformed said: "Your argument doesn't make any sense nor is it based in reality or Scripture".
Could this statement be your positional statement in a mirror?
No
As for healthy foods (Bible calls, "clean"), exercise, sex, water, or charitable works, when abused, it doesn't make these things "bad". They need managing, balancing or self-control. Basic necessities of life can be abused, but they are NEVER "bad"! Let's keep it real. CM
Alcohol is the same thing.
Again, you know this is not so! Alcohol is NOT one of the basic necessities of life. It never had and never will be. Alcohol destroys. One can live without Alcohol or fermented drink. Please let truth see the light of day. Youth and young adults need spiritual leaders to send a clear message on the usage of alcohol. It's a real killer of the past, the present, and the future. When it comes to alcohol and fermented drinks the carnage, history and the Bible are on my side. This is not a game. People are dying as we speak. Alcohol is not an innocent substance in society and among young generation. A person of this cohort should be able to look to Pastors for truth, even if it's not popular. Be one of these Pastors. CM
Alcohol does not destroy. The ABUSE of it does. Let's be honest with that point please. The truth is that Jesus served alcohol so there is something wrong with your position.
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Again, how is that relevant?
Wine is wine, and it is fermented. This idea of good wine and bad wine meaning alcoholic vs non alcoholic is absurd without any textual or historical support.
@ reformed said: "Your argument doesn't make any sense nor is it based in reality or Scripture".
Alcohol does not destroy. The ABUSE of it does. Let's be honest with that point, please. The truth is that Jesus served alcohol so there is something wrong with your position.
Reformed,
Let's get BACK TO THE BIBLE ON WINE.
In light of what has been shared thus far, I wonder, what are you telling your family and members, drink or no-drinks this holiday or any other time? The truth of the Word and the realities of wine remains. I found something that may answer some of your questions above.
The Old Testament employs three main words to refer to wine.
The first is shekar, which is usually translated "strong drink", but is now acknowledged, based on the use of the same root in other ancient languages, to refer to what we know as beer. It was definitely intoxicating (Isa. 28:7, 8; 29:9), and most probably made from grains.
- Most of the biblical references denounce or forbid its use (Lev. 10:9; 1 Sam. 1:15; Prov. 20:1; Isa. 5:11). Nevertheless, there is a peculiar and unique case that suggests that it was not necessarily wrong for an Israelite to drink beer (Deut. 14:26).
The second term, tirosh, is used to designate "new wine," grape juice (Judges 9:13; Isa. 65:8), the fresh must in the hollow of the winepress (Hosea 9:2; Micah 6:15; Joel 2:24; Prov. 3:10).
- Only one passage seems to indicate that it was intoxicating (Hosea 4:11), but the use of two words for wine in that text suggests that the intoxicating effect was the result of mixing "old" fermented wine with "new" unfermented wine.
The third word used for wine in the Bible is yayin, fermented grape juice (Gen. 9:21; Isa. 28:7). But again, there are several cases in which it could be referring to unfermented grape juice as it came from the winepress (Isa. 16:10; Jer. 48:33).
- The Greek version of the Old Testament uses the same Greek word, oinos, to render both Hebrew terms tirosh and yayin; and oinos is the term for "wine" found in the New Testament.
- The use of that term in the Old Testament suggests that in the New Testament oinos does not necessarily designate fermented grape juice.
Consider the Word in your doing and in your counseling. Enjoy these days the Jesus way. CM
PS. What says ye?
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@C_M_ said:
Again, how is that relevant?
Wine is wine, and it is fermented. This idea of good wine and bad wine meaning alcoholic vs non alcoholic is absurd without any textual or historical support.
@ reformed said: "Your argument doesn't make any sense nor is it based in reality or Scripture".
Alcohol does not destroy. The ABUSE of it does. Let's be honest with that point, please. The truth is that Jesus served alcohol so there is something wrong with your position.
Reformed,
Let's get BACK TO THE BIBLE ON WINE.
In light of what has been shared thus far, I wonder, what are you telling your family and members, drink or no-drinks this holiday or any other time? The truth of the Word and the realities of wine remains. I found something that may answer some of your questions above.
The Old Testament employs three main words to refer to wine.
The first is shekar, which is usually translated "strong drink", but is now acknowledged, based on the use of the same root in other ancient languages, to refer to what we know as beer. It was definitely intoxicating (Isa. 28:7, 8; 29:9), and most probably made from grains.
- Most of the biblical references denounce or forbid its use (Lev. 10:9; 1 Sam. 1:15; Prov. 20:1; Isa. 5:11). Nevertheless, there is a peculiar and unique case that suggests that it was not necessarily wrong for an Israelite to drink beer (Deut. 14:26).
The second term, tirosh, is used to designate "new wine," grape juice (Judges 9:13; Isa. 65:8), the fresh must in the hollow of the winepress (Hosea 9:2; Micah 6:15; Joel 2:24; Prov. 3:10).
- Only one passage seems to indicate that it was intoxicating (Hosea 4:11), but the use of two words for wine in that text suggests that the intoxicating effect was the result of mixing "old" fermented wine with "new" unfermented wine.
The third word used for wine in the Bible is yayin, fermented grape juice (Gen. 9:21; Isa. 28:7). But again, there are several cases in which it could be referring to unfermented grape juice as it came from the winepress (Isa. 16:10; Jer. 48:33).
- The Greek version of the Old Testament uses the same Greek word, oinos, to render both Hebrew terms tirosh and yayin; and oinos is the term for "wine" found in the New Testament.
- The use of that term in the Old Testament suggests that in the New Testament oinos does not necessarily designate fermented grape juice.
Consider the Word in your doing and in your counseling. Enjoy these days the Jesus way. CM
PS. What says ye?
I say the matter is beyond closed and you are just plain wrong.
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@reformed said:
I say the matter is beyond closed and you are just plain wrong.I would love you to be more detailed with reason, facts, biblical texts, and/or references. Give me a little more than "... you are just plain wrong". I would even be opened to targeted insights from other authors and "sober" thinkers. I am sure other readers would be interested. If not, let my presentation of find stands. CM
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@C_M_ said:
@reformed said:
I say the matter is beyond closed and you are just plain wrong.I would love you to be more detailed with reason, facts, biblical texts, and/or references. Give me a little more than "... you are just plain wrong". I would even be opened to targeted insights from other authors and "sober" thinkers. I am sure other readers would be interested. If not, let my presentation of find stands. CM
Read the thread. We have been over it. You have nothing new.
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@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
@reformed said:
I say the matter is beyond closed and you are just plain wrong.I would love you to be more detailed with reason, facts, biblical texts, and/or references. Give me a little more than "... you are just plain wrong". I would even be opened to targeted insights from other authors and "sober" thinkers. I am sure other readers would be interested. If not, let my presentation of find stands. CM
Read the thread. We have been over it. You have nothing new.
Reformed,
You have to do better than this. For someone who always requiring people "prove it", can surely direct us to what you have said or just repeat it. We are not asking for everything you have said in the past, just this for now. CM -
@C_M_ said:
@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
@reformed said:
I say the matter is beyond closed and you are just plain wrong.I would love you to be more detailed with reason, facts, biblical texts, and/or references. Give me a little more than "... you are just plain wrong". I would even be opened to targeted insights from other authors and "sober" thinkers. I am sure other readers would be interested. If not, let my presentation of find stands. CM
Read the thread. We have been over it. You have nothing new.
Reformed,
You have to do better than this. For someone who always requiring people "prove it", can surely direct us to what you have said or just repeat it. We are not asking for everything you have said in the past, just this for now. CMYou give words without sources. Nothing you said in your most recent "proof" for your claim was cited. And you want ME to do better? Give me a break.
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@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
Reformed,
You have to do better than this. For someone who always requiring people "prove it", can surely direct us to what you have said or just repeat it. We are not asking for everything you have said in the past, just this for now. CMYou give words without sources. Nothing you said in your most recent "proof" for your claim was cited. And you want ME to do better? Give me a break.
Reformed,
Personally, I think you are being unfair:- I think I give more references in these forums than anyone else. I do so not because I know more, to show off or it's required, but to add other voices and sources to the conversation than the current users. Also, additional resources for one to dig deeper. This is my personal commitment to these forums. It provides sustenance to work with and meatiness to the conversation if not now, later. Agree or not, at least, I signal, I am not the only one that holds a particular view and there are other voices besides ours. So, be reasonable and be fair in pointing the finger.
- You can't tear down ( "... you are just plain wrong") unless and until you are prepared and willing to build up. Please consider my points in moving forward.
- The Bible texts, in the last post, are not enough? What's keeping you from looking up the words, "Shekar", "Tirosh", and "Yayin" in your library?
- Are you "being lazy", I saw thrown out on another matter? Your "you are just plain wrong" -- dog, just won't hunt. It's alright to acknowledge you may have to give some topics more study or address it at another time. In the event that your position on a matter is evolving, just say so. We'll understand. No one expects you to know everything, about everything. You don't have to "double down" to appear to be right or knowledgeable. We're here to share and I want you to be reasonably comfortable in doing so.
- Even in a tennis match, one can follow the ball. Let's not do less. Allow the current users and silent readers to follow the conversation.
- Lastly, by way of humor, don't be like the late Groucho Marx in his little song, "I am Against It:
I am Against It
I don't know what they have to say.
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is,
I'm against it!No matter what it is, Or who commenced it.
I'm against it!
Your proposition may be good.
But let's have one thing understood.
Whatever it is, I'm against it!And even when you've changed it, Or condensed it.
I'm against it!
I'm opposed to it.On general principles, I'm opposed to it!
(He's opposed to it) (In fact, he says he's opposed to it!)For months before my son was born, I used to yell from night to morn.
"Whatever it is, I'm against it!"
And I've kept yelling Since I first commenced it.
"I'm against it!"
Remain true to thyself and cooperative with others. CM
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@C_M_ said:
@reformed said:
@C_M_ said:
Reformed,
You have to do better than this. For someone who always requiring people "prove it", can surely direct us to what you have said or just repeat it. We are not asking for everything you have said in the past, just this for now. CMYou give words without sources. Nothing you said in your most recent "proof" for your claim was cited. And you want ME to do better? Give me a break.
Reformed,
Personally, I think you are being unfair:- I think I give more references in these forums than anyone else. I do so not because I know more, to show off or it's required, but to add other voices and sources to the conversation than the current users. Also, additional resources for one to dig deeper. This is my personal commitment to these forums. It provides sustenance to work with and meatiness to the conversation if not now, later. Agree or not, at least, I signal, I am not the only one that holds a particular view and there are other voices besides ours. So, be reasonable and be fair in pointing the finger.
In your most recent post that you asked me to respond to you did NOT cite any sources. Just wrote a bunch of information.
- You can't tear down ( "... you are just plain wrong") unless and until you are prepared and willing to build up. Please consider my points in moving forward.
Actually, yes, you can.
- The Bible texts, in the last post, are not enough? What's keeping you from looking up the words, "Shekar", "Tirosh", and "Yayin" in your library?
The Bible texts are the same that have been used for 2,000 years and nobody credible has come up with your interpretations. Cite your sources.
- Are you "being lazy", I saw thrown out on another matter? Your "you are just plain wrong" -- dog, just won't hunt. It's alright to acknowledge you may have to give some topics more study or address it at another time. In the event that your position on a matter is evolving, just say so. We'll understand. No one expects you to know everything, about everything. You don't have to "double down" to appear to be right or knowledgeable. We're here to share and I want you to be reasonably comfortable in doing so.
I don't need more study time. I've already studied it. You haven't cited your sources so there is nothing further to study. You are wrong on this issue. My position is NOT evolving. It is solid both biblically and academically. I've shared and your assertions on this matter simply don't hold water.
- Even in a tennis match, one can follow the ball. Let's not do less. Allow the current users and silent readers to follow the conversation.
This is a stupid comment. You addressed me specifically.
- Lastly, by way of humor, don't be like the late Groucho Marx in his little song, "I am Against It:
I am Against It
I don't know what they have to say.
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is,
I'm against it!I don't even know who they are since you didn't cite your sources.
No matter what it is, Or who commenced it.
I'm against it!
Your proposition may be good.
But let's have one thing understood.
Whatever it is, I'm against it!Again, as far as we know, these were just your assertions and go against all credible scholarship.
And even when you've changed it, Or condensed it.
I'm against it!
I'm opposed to it.Because you haven't shown anything to have reasonable doubt against the current belief.
On general principles, I'm opposed to it!
(He's opposed to it) (In fact, he says he's opposed to it!)
For months before my son was born, I used to yell from night to morn.
"Whatever it is, I'm against it!"
And I've kept yelling Since I first commenced it.
"I'm against it!"Remain true to thyself and cooperative with others. CM
I am true to myself, true to scholarship, true to what the Bible ACTUALLY says on this matter.
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@Bill_Coley said:
@C_M_ said:
The two types of wines are:BAD WINE ------ GOOD WINE
Fermented. ----- Unfermented.....Is there textual evidence that supports your claim that the word "wine" in the Bible sometimes refers to "grape juice" rather than "fermented wine"? My fast LOGOS search revealed only one Hebrew word for wine throughout the OT, and one Greek word for wine throughout the NT. If my search results are accurate, how does one discern which references refer to grape juice, and which do not?
Grape plant has alcohol in it so Nazarite vow is avoidance of all grape plant stuff, which includes new "juice" and old wine (best tasting). Fermentation increases alcohol content along with producing gas. New wineskins have elasticity for gas pressure while old wineskins do not (they burst).
Septuagint has one Greek word translation for Hebrew that includes Noah and Lot getting drunk from consuming too much wine.
A Study Bible article about "unfermented" wine near John 2 included a snippet from Pliny's "The Natural History" about boiling juice (so alcohol would evaporate). Pliny's context was describing production of grape jelly. Pliny mentions convention in Roman Empire of diluting wine with water, which reduces alcoholic content (along with reducing bitterness). Human speculation is the Best tasting wine created by Jesus for wedding celebration would need many pints consumed quickly to become legally impaired.
College memories include dormitories being searched for alcoholic beverages, which included confiscation of cough syrup. Alcohol in small amounts has a positive medicinal effect in the human body. Paul's advice to Timothy was practical for reducing frequent sickness. Caveat: best advice for someone who has abused alcohol is complete abstinence.
Keep Smiling
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Hear this man's story in his own words. CM
What I learned by not drinking for 2 years
By Andy Boyle
What I learned by not drinking for 2 years
Before and after: On the left, 306 pounds, drinking. On the right, 230 pounds, not drinking.
Editor's note: Writer and comedian Andy Boyle published this essay in 2015 about his decision to quit drinking. Since then, the essay has been shared widely, particularly in the weeks around New Year's Day. We are reposting the essay here, along with some links around the topic of alcohol and health.Two years ago, a few days before New Year's Eve, I last got drunk. It was the closing night of the Lincoln Lodge, a fantastic comedy venue in Chicago in the back of a now-closed diner. They've since moved, but after that show, I thought I should take a breather from drinking — and eating meat — and focus on productivity.
Here's a short list of what I've accomplished since I stopped drinking:
• Bought an amazing loft condo.
• Finished a first draft of an advice book.
• Started exercising three days a week, then four.
• Went from a size XXL to size Large.
• Performed in three comedy festivals.
• Got an amazing new job.
• Finished multiple drafts of multiple television and movie scripts.
• Went from a 42-inch waist to a 36-inch waist.
• Went from hating myself daily to relatively enjoying myself.
A lot of this is what I externally accomplished, what I can show on paper. But I think that last one is the most important.
I've learned a lot in two years, so I thought I'd share that with you, in case you'd like to take a break from the booze cruise. Also, that's what I tell myself: I've taken a break. Maybe I'll drink again. Maybe I won't.
But overall, life seems to be a whole lot better for me because I took a break. Perhaps it could be for you too.
RELATED: Skipping alcohol in January? Yes, you can still date. Here's how.
- You don't have to drink to have fun.
What a shocker! As someone who's been drinking since senior year of high school (sorry, Mom, we weren't just "hanging out" in the basement), most events in my life revolved around booze.
Almost everything does: Comedy shows, concerts, after-work functions, meetups, dates, conferences, dinner, museum tours. But guess what? The events don't change if you decide not to drink!
You're still you. Maybe you're more "inhibited," but is that altogether terrible? I've found that when I hang out with folks who have been drinking, I start to feel the same way I felt — in terms of becoming silly, goofy, fun — when I was drinking too.
And I remember everything that happened during the events, which is always nice.
- You have way fewer regrets.
Since I stopped drinking, I've yet to wake up and look at my phone, see something I texted, and go, "Ugh, wwwwwwhhhhhy." I'm in control of my actions basically all of the time.
RELATED: Study shows moderate alcohol consumption is OK
I think longer before I respond to something someone says. If I'm angry, it gives me time to calm down. Drinking definitely helped my inner jerk come out a lot more often. Now I am better at keeping the jerkier side of me locked up. It still comes out, sure, but at least I have more control over when that happens.
- People will judge the heck out of you.
This was the weirdest one to deal with. Many, many folks will give you attitude for not drinking. Here are some things I've been told:
"C'mon, dude, just have one beer! It's not like you're going to meetings or whatever!"
"I can't trust someone who doesn't drink."
"You're not fun unless you're drunk."
"When you don't drink, it makes me feel bad about myself, which makes me not like you."
"I can't date someone who doesn't want to get drunk with me, sorry."
I'll bet I said some of these things myself, back when I used to drink — because when you're around someone who doesn't do something you like doing, you can be taken aback by it.
I've had friends who've stopped hanging out with me because I don't drink anymore. I've had relationships end (or not even start) because of it. I have been sent screen shots of people I know talking smack about me to other people because I choose to not do a thing.
It's weird. But it makes you realize the bad relationship with booze that other folks must be having. And for that, I have empathy. And I hope they figure it out.
RELATED: I tried mindfulness to quit drinking. It actually worked.
- You sleep so much better.
I haven't slept this great since before high school. Man, it's fantastic. I could point you to all the studies that show how alcohol affects your sleep, but hey, take my word for it.
I don't know if I have depression, but I used to get bummed out a lot. There were days when I wouldn't want to leave my apartment, or see anyone, mostly because I hated myself. I don't hate myself nearly as much as I used to. I'm generally OK with my life and who I am. Positivity is now my go-to emotion, even when something bad or terrible happens to me.
It's like I flipped this switch inside my brain: Instead of going to negativity, I try to find the reason something is positive. It's definitely weird to have this happen to me.
- You develop more empathy for others.
A few weeks ago, this guy blared on his horn because I was crossing at a crosswalk and he wanted to turn, and he almost hit me with his car, then he flipped me off and cursed at me.
Old me probably would've stood in front of him, not moved, taken a photo or video of him, shared it on the Internet, explained, "Hey, look at this jerk who tried to hit me with his car!" and felt smug and wonderful about it.
RELATED: Not Your Father's Root Beer and its curious rise to national sensation
Instead, after an initial moment of fear and anger, I realized this dude was probably having an awful day. Maybe he was late for an appointment. Maybe he was trying to get to the hospital to see his son who has cancer. Maybe he didn't have parents as loving as mine and that's filled him with resentment his entire life.
Either way, that guy had something going on, and I wanted him to be happier. Then I felt weird, because my brain has been wired forever to be a little twerp to anyone who wrongs me. But now? I generally jump to empathy. I like that.
- You save so much money.
I bought a condo. I'd like to pretend as though it wasn't because of how much money I saved by not drinking and buying food while drunk, but probably a quarter of my down payment came just from abstaining from booze.
- You get tired earlier.
It's pretty hard for me to stay up past 11 p.m. most days, even on weekends. When I was drinking, booze was a magical fuel that kept me going, trying to find a new adventure.
Now that I don't drink, I'm not constantly searching for adventure, trying to find one more fun thing that will fill the empty void inside of me. I'm content with what I've done for the day, and my body wants to go to bed. I dig that.
- You become amazingly productive.
When you're not spending most of your free time at bars, you get a lot done. I read more. I write more. I learn more.
I spend more time working on bettering myself and my skills than I ever would have sitting at a bar, chatting with a buddy or two. I'm much less social than I used to be, but I'm also creating more art and failing a lot more than ever before.
In the end, I know I'm going to die. I'd rather there be a few things of me still hanging around after I'm dead, some sort of personal expression that others can enjoy. That requires me to put in the time to work on projects, make something tangible and real for people to enjoy.
That seems, now, like a better use of my time than chatting with some pals at a bar. That conversation may have been great, sure, but in the end, it dies with me and those people. If I can create a few things that last longer than me, it makes my life last longer. It means I mattered a little more.
I'm glad I haven't been drunk for two years. Sure, I've done a few shots of Malort with people who've never tried it. And yes, there was that one time a dude threatened to kick my rear if I didn't drink that shot of whiskey he bought to congratulate me on "being so funny" after hearing me tell jokes about how I don't drink anymore.
If you ever think, hey, this drinking thing isn't fun anymore, it's OK to take a break. I just quit. For me, it's been relatively easy, and I know it isn't easy for everyone. But just know I've found countless rad people who can have fun without booze. And you can too.
Andy Boyle is a comedian, writer and web developer in Chicago.
It pays to follow the Bible. CM
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Celebrate Recovery is a Christ-Centered 12 Step Program for Celebrating Recovery from Hurts, Habits, Hang-ups. John Baker became the founder of Celebrate Recovery at Saddleback Church after being mocked at many AA meetings for John's higher power being Jesus Christ. Over 25 years later, Celebrate Recovery has many testimonials => https://www.celebraterecovery.com/testimonies
Celebrate Recovery Leader's Guide includes John Baker's testimony with 12 Steps and 8 Principles from the Beatitudes. What Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount (plus rest of the Bible) is still practical for changing believer's lives to Glorify God today
For Prison ministry, Celebrate Recovery reduces recidivism rate immensely. Residents can begin inside for God Almighty (with other believers) to help them deal with their hurts, habits, and hang-ups, which can continue outside prison in different groups (many thousands of groups around the world). As a volunteer going inside prison, am restricted from outside relationships with previous residents until they have been three years off paper due to 50 % recidivism within three years (have seen many back inside; a number were Thankful for God using Prison to bring them closer to God). As a Prison volunteer, had not anticipated residents right with God who God used to prod me to Love God
To use the name Celebrate Recovery, lessons must keep Bible references and teaching acrostic while allowing rest of lesson content to be customized. Ideal group has believers with similar past hurts, habits, and hang-ups sharing their thoughts and emotions while being yoked with Jesus Christ for the Glory of God
Thankful for God changing my vision to see every human alive as someone who is special, whom God the Father, Jesus Christ, and Holy Spirit (One God) want to have an ongoing immense, intense love relationship
Sins can be forgiven so have awesome reasons to Be Rejoicing in the Lord Always Keep Smiling
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Dry January: A time to reassess your relationship with alcohol
Shirley McMarlin
Excerpts from the article (full) below, it seem to affirm why one refrain form intoxicating drinks:
- ...“The interesting thing is that we imbibe quite a lot over the holidays,” says Dr. Jason.
- Kirby, medical director for Gateway Rehabilitation, an Aliquippa-based drug, and alcohol treatment center. “We drink more than at other times, so hangovers are pretty common at this time of year.
- “Free from the harm caused by alcohol,” according to its website.
- Alcohol ... lead to alcohol problems — like poverty, mental health issues, homelessness — are addressed; where those of us who drink too much, and our loved ones, have access to high-quality support whenever we need it, without shame or stigma.”
- Loses weight, sleeps better and has more energy. People want to know about her experience.
NICE INCENTIVE
Why they drink,” says Jodi Axe, clinical director at Allied Addiction Recovery, a Pittsburgh-based outpatient drug, and alcohol addiction treatment facility. “It’s a way to explore other avenues to have fun, to relax and be social. It’s good for people who are looking to make some better choices.”
“Even cutting back a little has real health benefits,” Kirby says, noting that even moderate alcohol consumption affects the central nervous system, internal organs, and the digestive tract.
“Even for those without substance use problems, alcohol can be a concern,” he says. “It’s full of empty calories that can cause weight gain. It can stimulate reflux and other digestive problems. Your exercise tolerance goes down with drinking, and obviously, you’re going to be more sedentary when you’re drinking.”
HIDDEN ISSUES
- While alcohol use can manifest in physical symptoms, it can hide evidence of other issues, Axe says.
- “(Abstention) can help people see what is actually going on in their bodies,” she says. “You can attend to things that alcohol use could be covering up, like mental health issues that need to be addressed.”
- It’s common for people to drink to deal with social anxiety, Axe says. Alcohol use also can mask sleep disturbances, racing thoughts, depression and even sleep apnea.
- “If you quit and notice dramatic changes in your thinking or your body, you should seek medical attention for a complete physical.”
- Another thing to consider, Kirby says, is the effect of drinking on the health of your wallet.
- “Obviously, alcohol costs money — sometimes a lot of money, depending on what you’re drinking,” he says. “So you’re using money that could be put to other use, a lot of times probably better use.”
USE CAUTION to stop, but stop:
- “I think it’s more suitable possibly for someone who is a social drinker,” Axe says. “The problem for people who are addicted to alcohol is that to abruptly discontinue drinking is extremely dangerous,” she says. “The body gets used to functioning with alcohol in it, so to just quit can cause medical issues like seizures, DTs (delirium tremens) and even death.”
- People with an alcohol addiction should plan their withdrawal under the care of a medical professional.
If we follow the Word and live unto the Lord, we don't have to experience a lot of the drinker's headaches. It's better to set things in place than to fix it. CM
Source: https://triblive.com/news/healthnow/14478251-74/dry-january-a-time-to-reassess-your-relationship-with-alcohol. Shirley McMarlin is a Tribune-Review staff writer. You can contact Shirley at 724-836-5750, smcmarlin@tribweb.com or via Twitter @shirley_trib.
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The Word doesn't prohibit alcohol as we have shown dozens of times. It prohibits drunkenness.
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@reformed said:
The Word doesn't prohibit alcohol as we have shown dozens of times. It prohibits drunkenness.Nonsense! CM
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It's not nonsense. You just have crazy ways of trying to twist it into being grapejuice and not wine even though that goes against grammar and Greek definitions.
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@reformed said:
It's not nonsense. You just have crazy ways of trying to twist it into being grapejuice and not wine even though that goes against grammar and Greek definitions.
Reformed,
You sound like the alcoholic man, who approach Jerry Dunn, an authority on dealing with alcoholics saying: “Jerry! It’s all right for me to drink. The Bible says so! I dare you to show me anywhere in the Bible where it says that I can’t drink” (see Dunn).History shows that the Temperance movement in America indicates that the cause of total abstinence was most enthusiastically embraced and promoted by those evangelical churches which stood for total abstinence such as the Baptist, Methodist, Congregationalist, New School Presbyterian, Salvation Army, some holiness movements and the Seventh-day Adventist Church. They believe Scripture teaches abstinence from intoxicating beverages rather than moderation in their use. Of course, there were other churches that didn't share the conviction: Episcopal, Lutheran, German Reformed, Old School Presbyterian. They were “least enthusiastic about the temperance movement” (See Merrill).
In light of who God is, what he has done, and the wonderful bodies he has given us, why would he encourage a man to drink? Alcohol destroys brain cells permanently, families, causes death and dishonors our body temple (1 Cor 10:31). Alcohol has no health value to sustain life. God is about life and desires us to have it more abundantly.
No, Reformed, I am not twisting anything. Jesus didn't perform a miracle for people to get drunk or to get high, short of drunkenness. My God is better than this. Jesus provided the pure "Fruit of the Vine" = Wine. Total abstinence makes good sense and good health. Enjoy a big cold glass of Wine, "Fruit of the Vine".
SOURCES:
- Jerry Dunn, God is for the Alcoholic (Chicago, 1896), p. 87.
- John L. Merrill, “The Bible and the American Temperance Movement: Text, Context, and Pretext,” Harvard Theological Review 81-2 (April 1988): 165.
PS. I didn't mean to be so curt in my last post. I was rushing out the door. Sorry!
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@C_M_ said:
@reformed said:
It's not nonsense. You just have crazy ways of trying to twist it into being grapejuice and not wine even though that goes against grammar and Greek definitions.
Reformed,
You sound like the alcoholic man, who approach Jerry Dunn, an authority on dealing with alcoholics saying: “Jerry! It’s all right for me to drink. The Bible says so! I dare you to show me anywhere in the Bible where it says that I can’t drink” (see Dunn).I don't drink. But I also don't have a problem with it. You can't find a command in the Bible for the general Christian population to not drink.
History shows that the Temperance movement in America indicates that the cause of total abstinence was most enthusiastically embraced and promoted by those evangelical churches which stood for total abstinence such as the Baptist, Methodist, Congregationalist, New School Presbyterian, Salvation Army, some holiness movements and the Seventh-day Adventist Church. They believe Scripture teaches abstinence from intoxicating beverages rather than moderation in their use. Of course, there were other churches that didn't share the conviction: Episcopal, Lutheran, German Reformed, Old School Presbyterian. They were “least enthusiastic about the temperance movement” (See Merrill).
Yes, they taught that, but not on a biblical basis, but rather, a convictional basis.
In light of who God is, what he has done, and the wonderful bodies he has given us, why would he encourage a man to drink? Alcohol destroys brain cells permanently, families, causes death and dishonors our body temple (1 Cor 10:31). Alcohol has no health value to sustain life. God is about life and desires us to have it more abundantly.
Because it can be good for the stomach according to Paul. Lot's of things destroy brain cells permanently. But guess what, the brain cells can regenerate and replenish so that is a stupid argument.
No, Reformed, I am not twisting anything. Jesus didn't perform a miracle for people to get drunk or to get high, short of drunkenness. My God is better than this. Jesus provided the pure "Fruit of the Vine" = Wine. Total abstinence makes good sense and good health. Enjoy a big cold glass of Wine, "Fruit of the Vine".
Yes actually you are. Jesus did not perform a miracle for people to get drunk and I have never argued that he did. Show me where I argued he did. He provided wine. Alcoholic, fermented wine. Do some word studies my friend. Do some cutlural studies. It was alcohol. No way around it.
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@reformed said:
@C_M_ said: No, Reformed, I am not twisting anything. Jesus didn't perform a miracle for people to get drunk or to get high, short of drunkenness. My God is better than this. Jesus provided the pure "Fruit of the Vine" = Wine. Total abstinence makes good sense and good health. Enjoy a big cold glass of Wine, "Fruit of the Vine".
Yes actually you are. Jesus did not perform a miracle for people to get drunk and I have never argued that he did. Show me where I argued he did. He provided wine. Alcoholic, fermented wine. Do some word studies my friend. Do some cutlural studies. It was alcohol. No way around it.
“It is absurd and dangerous to imagine that God would have approved and encouraged the moderate use of a substance which intoxicates our organism, irrespective of the amount consumed.” CM
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@C_M_ said:
@reformed said:
@C_M_ said: No, Reformed, I am not twisting anything. Jesus didn't perform a miracle for people to get drunk or to get high, short of drunkenness. My God is better than this. Jesus provided the pure "Fruit of the Vine" = Wine. Total abstinence makes good sense and good health. Enjoy a big cold glass of Wine, "Fruit of the Vine".
Yes actually you are. Jesus did not perform a miracle for people to get drunk and I have never argued that he did. Show me where I argued he did. He provided wine. Alcoholic, fermented wine. Do some word studies my friend. Do some cutlural studies. It was alcohol. No way around it.
“It is absurd and dangerous to imagine that God would have approved and encouraged the moderate use of a substance which intoxicates our organism, irrespective of the amount consumed.” CM
Yet Jesus served alcohol. Hmm...
