The First Lie believed by World Religions!
Comments
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I've heard it theorized before.
We just don't know!
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 4 Still listening & hoping for @theMadJW insight about Why Adam & Eve choose to hide from God ? (Genesis 3:1-8) What died instantly ?
@theMadJW June 5 KS$J- I don't know. That they were "naked" has long puzzled me!
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 7 What happened to intimate human relationship with Holy God ?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 7 Prior to choosing disobedience of Holy God's command, Adam & Eve had enjoyed Holy God's Loving ❤️presence without any fear nor shame.
To me, your "don't know" replies reduce your credibilty for this thread "The First Lie believed by World Religions" whose initial post included:
Did Jesus truthfully describe afterlife for the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 ?
“Now a certain man was rich, and dressed in purple cloth and fine linen, feasting sumptuously every day. And a certain poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, lay at his gate, and was longing to be filled with what fell from the table of the rich man. But even the dogs came and licked his sores. Now it happened that the poor man died, and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes as he was in torment and saw Abraham from a distance, and Lazarus at his side. And he called out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he could dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am suffering pain in this flame!’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you received your good things during your life, and Lazarus likewise bad things. But now he is comforted here, but you are suffering pain. And in addition to all these things, a great chasm has been established between us and you, so that those who want to cross over from here to you are not able to do so, nor can they cross over from there to us.’ So he said, ‘Then I ask you, father, that you send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, so that he could warn them, in order that they also should not come to this place of torment!’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; they must listen to them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent!’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone rises from the dead.’ ” (Luke 16:19-31 LEB)
Thankful for 23 Minutes in Hell: One Man's Story About What He Saw, Heard, and Felt in That Place of Torment being in my Logos Bible Software library. The rich man and Lazarus parable having no water for those currently in torment matches intense experience by Bill Wiese.
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Did Jesus truthfully describe afterlife for the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 ?
Jesus taught another parable ... he was NOT speaking or teaching something about literal events "in a life after life" ... it's plain and simple to see when one looks at the immediate context of Lk 16.
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The Pharisees wore "Purple & Linen"- and it was their own TEACHING!
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A word of confirmation. Man is mortal (subject to death). CM
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@theMadJW A word of confirmation. Man is mortal (subject to death). CM
Indeed ...
However, one should note the following: With the resurrection a reality, believers in Christ are then changed in the twinkling of an eye :
1Co 15:51-53 (KJV)
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
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Common ground. CM
PS. One may ask, what does it mean to be dead? 🤔
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@C Mc PS. One may ask, what does it mean to be dead? 🤔
To be dead means to be dead ... opposite of to be alive. Simple and plain Biblical truth.
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The Pharisees wore "Purple & Linen"- and it was their own TEACHING!
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What is this? What does this have to do with understanding the state of the dead biblically?
I am sure you agree:
- That Humankind is mortal and will die (2 Cor 4:11; Job 4:17).
- All souls are subject to death (Rom 5:12).
- With the Bible that teaches when a person dies, the spirit (breath) returns to God who gave it at creation (Gen 2:7) and the body returns to the earth as it was (Gen 2:6; Eccl. 12:7) whether they were righteous or wicked.
- The soul is a living being, a combination of the body (dust) plus breath (spirit) (Gen 2:7).
- When a person dies, he or she is no longer a soul.
- After death, the person returns to the dust (Ps 104:29).
- Knows nothing (Eccl 9:5).
- Possesses no mental power (Ps 146:4).
- Has nothing to do with anything on earth (Eccl 9:6).
- Doesn't live (2 Kgs 20:1).
- Waits in the grave (Job 17:13).
Do you not affirm:
- Death is the cession of life, the undoing of creation. In short, death is not a continuation of living or in another form heaven, "hell" or in some Netherland?
- Death is an unconscious sleep.
- There is no Purgatory. The belief that when a loved one dies, the soul is not really dead but alive in purgatory to undergo purification, so as to receive the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. After purification, the righteous soul goes straight to heaven. Those who die in mortal sin immediately after death descend into hell to suffer the punishment of hell, eternal fire".
- There is no Reincarnation? This is the belief that human beings always inhabit human bodies however, it has also been a widely held belief that the body into which a person migrates can be that of an animal, a plant, or even an inanimate object.
- There is no Transmigration? This is “usually indicating a passage across the boundaries of all forms of existence (plant, animal, human, demonic, and divine), the passage of one’s soul, or vital essence, into the bodies of newly-humans or other life forms.”
I am aware that most world religions teach one of three schools of thought —purgatory, reincarnation, or transmigration. I don't need to say these teachings create more questions about the love and justice of God than conveys truth. The Big three lies about death:
- Distorts the concept of death that was instituted by Satan in the Garden of Eden when he said, “You shall not surely die” (Gen 3:4; Rev 12:9).
- This deception has brought into the world spiritualism, a belief that supernatural agents receive power and wisdom from the spirits of the dead. Spiritualism is accepting that the spirits or souls of the dead live on after death and one can communicate with them. One can clearly see this is not biblical. Satan made this "lie" the foundation for his masterpiece of deception.
- Spiritualism has taken on a "religious garb" an official publication of the Spiritualists, in the past, boldly declared:
"Spiritualism, with its signs, wonders, visions and healing gifts was the religion of the apostles; of the post-apostolic fathers, and the primitive Christians." —Centennial Book of Modern Spiritualism in America, p. 115 (1948)
They also said:
"Spiritualism is the coming universal religion. It is the lifeblood of Christianity; in fact, it is Christianity plus." --see above., p. 69.
Wow! Those who believe that the dead are alive become easy targets for the devil’s deceptions. Paranormal manifestations are Satan and his angels impersonating loved ones and others who are now dead (2 Cor 11:13).
So, Mr. @theMadJW, if you or any Bible-believing Christians don't accept the biblical truth above, when it comes to the state of the dead, please, say so, and why? CM
PS. See an undeveloped thread, "Purgatory is it biblical..."
SOURCES:
- Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nded. (Washington, DC: United States Catholic Conference, 1994), 266-276.
- Paul Edwards, Reincarnation: A Critical Examination (Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 1996),12
- Farnáz Ma‘súmián, Life after Death: A Study of the Afterlife in World Religions (Rockport, MA: Oneworld Publication, 1995), 112.
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So, Mr. @theMadJW, if you or any Bible-believing Christians don't accept the biblical truth above, when it comes to the state of the dead, please, say so, and why? CM
Well ... while I accept Biblical truth, I do not equate an interpretation -- no matter from which famous or unknown person -- as being the biblical truth, but rather as what it is => an interpretation. It may actually equal biblical truth, but it could be completely wrong.
Unfortunately, you quote a bunch of passages from different authors and just declare what they write to be biblical truth ...
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Wolfgang,
A Bible believer will reject all teachings that claim the dead are alive in any form, anywhere (Lev 20:27).
Wolfgang said:
Unfortunately, you quote a bunch of passages from different authors and just declare what they write to be biblical truth ...
I vehemently disagree with you! The biblical text speaks for itself with or without the various authors. Could it be that you having a problem with the fact that you and I share common ground on this topic? If you do, I understand. If you don't, "I am ok, and you're ok". CM
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CMC, the Bible says Adam living BECAME a living soul.
If you don't want to accept that, choosing clergy psychobabble instead, it's your call!
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Ok, what is the point you're trying to make with me? Please, talk to me. Is not Adam "became" after God acted: Formed and breathed? Are not these are more important than a word? CM
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The Bible mentions DEAD SOULS. Adam became a LIVING soul; the breath of life was added to him!
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The Bible mentions DEAD SOULS. Adam became a LIVING soul; the breath of life was added to him!
Simple point regarding this matter is that the term "soul" does not refer to only a part of a person, but to the person as a whole. Thus, a living soul => a living person; a dead soul => a dead person.
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I'm flabbergasted!
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Where in the Bible it "mentions DEAD SOULS"? CM
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Numbers 6:6- All the days that he separateth himself unto Jehovah he shall not come near to a dead body ["soul" nephesh]. -ASV
Its standard to represent the soul as the body; for THAT IS WHAT IT IS!
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@theMadJW Numbers 6:6- All the days that he separateth himself unto Jehovah he shall not come near to a dead body ["soul" nephesh]. -ASV
The translation "body" was perhaps ok in the time when these translations were made because the word "body" was commonly used for "person". Nowadays, the usage of the word "body" has changed and it usually refers no longer to the person as a whole but only to the physical body as part of a person.
Its standard to represent the soul as the body; for THAT IS WHAT IT IS!
I would say that "soul" [heb. nephesh] refers to or is the person as a whole, not just the body. Same use of the word "soul2 is found in NT, for example cp. Acts 27:37 - "And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls." There were 276 complete persons on board.
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The verse you cited is found in the "Nazirite Law". This law is divided into four parts:
- Num. 6:1-8. (forbidden activities). This is the section your verse is found. --
- Num. 6:9-12 (response to defilement).
- Num. 6:13-20 (the ritual marking the end of vow).
- Num. 6:21 (a concluding statement).
"Nazirite" means -- "keep oneself separated from", "to separate", from the Heb. word, "nazar". This means to "separate for", consecration.
Wine was forbidden by those who are under a Nazirite vow (Num 6:1-4; Judg 13:4, 7, 14) like with the priest who ministered in the Sanctuary (Lev 10:9; Ezek 44:21). This possibly could have included Daniel was indeed a priest is why he refused the king's wine.
The Mosaic law dealt with drinks in the case of the Nazirites and Rechabites, who abstained from intoxicants on account of a special vow.
The Apostle Paul assumed a Nazirite vow on his own initiative (Acts 18:18) at Cenchreae. He had fulfilled the vow of a Nazirite (Acts 18:18) with his last visit to Jerusalem.
Please understand that the Nazirite’s vow included abstention from all grape products, even the seed (Num. 6: 2-4), and having a full head of hair (Num 6:5 and Lev 21:5). This however was a temporary and voluntary vow. e.g.
- Samuel (I Sam. 1:11).
- John the Baptist (Luke 1:15) were Nazirite for life. But we have no record of a person taking the vow voluntarily for life.
- Samson was a Nazirite (Judg 13:5)
Perpetual vows were taken by parents on behalf of children. The Rechabites led a nomadic life in tents and abstained from wine and all intoxicating drinks (Jer. 35:1-19).
Your concern, @theMadJW, with corpse contamination (similar to the High priest). The Nazirite was forbidden to have physical contact with the dead, even for a member of the immediate family (Num 6:6).
The Book of Numbers contributes in many ways to the theology of worship, especially to the Nazirite vow.
As for the word "soul":
Bible's definition of life: God blew His breath into the lifeless man (body) and he "BECAME" one who breathes. A living being or a living soul.
- "Then the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2: 7)
- Neshamah, Ruwach. This word is translated as breath and spirit.
- Nephesh. This word means "that which breathes". A living being. A living creature. A living soul.
- Seebass, H. “Nephesh.” In The Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament. Ed. by G. Johannes Botterweck, et al. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1998. 9:503-04. Excursus: “The Translation ‘Soul’” (9:508-10).
The Soul Is A Living Person. Life is made from:
DUST + BREATH FROM GOD = NEPHESH (living being, soul)
blob:https://www.christiandiscourse.net/24311945-ee20-426f-bfc2-5746d725b09cThink of the example of a light bulb.
The bulb is like our body. The electricity is like the breath of God. Together, they make up energized light that sheds its brightness around it. Likewise, our body, without God's breath, is dark. We are alive because God puts life into us.
Living Brain (Mind). Consciousness, feelings, love, hate, envy, knowledge, wisdom, understanding, reasoning, thoughts.
- Light Bulb + Electricity = Light
- Body (dust) + Breath from God (spirit) = Living Soul (living being, nephesh)
The soul is simply a person who can breathe. It is not the breath only. Without the breath of God, the dust would not be conscious. And without the dust, the breath would not be conscious. It takes a combination of both to produce a living creature.
There is not a dead soul. A "soul" prospers. 1 John 1.2
Plants are not (living souls or creatures), do not have blood, breath, flesh, heart, nostrils, and face as man and animals. “plants do not have life in the sense of nephesh, while animals do.”
@theMadJW, I hope this brings greater understanding to the text and your overall knowledge. CM
SOURCES:
- Barry L. Bandstra, Wine, ed. Geoffrey Bromiley, 4 vols., The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, vol. 4 (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1988), 1070.
- Anne E. Gardner, "In the Hebrew Bible: Key to the Identity and Function of the Maskilim in Daniel". Revue Biblique 118, no. 4 (2011): 496-514.
- Jacob Milgrom, Numbers, The JPS Torah Commentary (Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society, 1990), 316.
- ABD, 3:237-244.
- R. B. Allen, “Numbers,” in The Expositor's Bible Commentary, ed. F. E. Gaebelein, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1990), 679-680.
- James Stambaugh, “Life’ According to the Bible and the Scientific Evidence,” Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal 6, no. 2 (1992): 98–121
- Jonathan Sarfati, Refuting Compromise (Green Forest, AR: Master Books, 2004), 209.
Post edited by C Mc on -
@C Mc ... now what in the world does the post with lengthy secular source citations have to do with the topic being discussed in this thread and with the particular aspect of how the word "soul" is used in Scripture ??????
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You are correct Wolf gang, and MC is ___________.
Fill in the blank for any words meaning ridiculous....
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