Is Jesus Deity?
Give your answer, to yes or no. (Yes, I know this has been hashed out on the old forums many times, but this will help get this forum populated)
Comments
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Yes. Jesus is God as defined by the ecumenical creeds.
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YES! As evidence, let me quote Zechariah 12:10 - a passage that I recently heard from Rabbi Jonathan Bernis, and was in its nuances new to me.
"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."
Notice how YHWH switches between the first and third person when he speaks about the pierced one?
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@Jan said:
YES! As evidence, let me quote Zechariah 12:10 - a passage that I recently heard from Rabbi Jonathan Bernis, and was in its nuances new to me."And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."
Notice how YHWH switches between the first and third person when he speaks about the pierced one?
Excellent.
Yes!
Colossians 1:19 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell
2 Peter 1:1 . . . our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
Hebrews 1:8 But of the Son he says, “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom.” -
@Jan said:
YES! As evidence, let me quote Zechariah 12:10 - a passage that I recently heard from Rabbi Jonathan Bernis, and was in its nuances new to me."And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."
Notice how YHWH switches between the first and third person when he speaks about the pierced one?
Ah this is a new text for this topic for me. Very good find!
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Zechariah 12:10 is a very interesting verse indeed as it seems no two English translations I have access to translate it identically. For example:
The JPS Tanakh translates Zechariah 12:10 as follows:
But I will fill the House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem with a spirit of pity and compassion; and they shall lament to Me about those who are slain, wailing over them as over a favorite son and showing bitter grief as over a first-born.
Jewish Publication Society. Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures. Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society, 1985.
The RSV on the other hand reads:
“And I will pour **out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of compassion and supplication,_so that, when they look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him**_, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a first-born.
Revised Standard Version of the Bible, copyright © 1946, 1952, and 1971 the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved.
The NJB understands the verse this way
But over the House of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem I shall pour out a spirit of grace and prayer, and they will look to me. They will mourn _for the one whom they have pierced _as though for an only child, and weep for him as people weep for a first-born child.
New Jerusalem Bible. Edited by Henry Wansbrough.
Copyright © 1985, by Darton, Longman & Todd Limited and Doubleday.and The NETS following the LXX, however, renders the text this way:
And** I will pour** out a spirit of grace and compassion on the house of Dauid and on the inhabitants of Ierousalem, and_ they shall look to me because they have danced triumphantly_, and they shall mourn for him with a mourning as for a loved one, and they shall be pained with pain as for a firstborn.
A New English Translation of the Septuagint, ©2007 by the International Organization for Septuagint and Cognate Studies, Inc. Used by permission of Oxford University Press. All rights reserved.
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Knowing Hebrew would be an advantage now. I did check NIV, LEB and NASB before, which all render the verse similar. I also checked the NWT online so see how the JW twist the verse (which of course they do).
Here are some more samples from Tanakh translations:
And I will pour out on the house of David and on those living in Yerushalayim a spirit of grace and prayer; and they will look to me, whom they pierced. They will mourn for him as one mourns for an only son; they will be in bitterness on his behalf like the bitterness for a firstborn son."
Stern, D. H. (1998). Complete Jewish Bible: an English version of the Tanakh (Old Testament) and B’rit Hadashah (New Testament) (1st ed.). Clarksville, MD: Jewish New Testament Publications.
"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born."
Jewish Publication Society of America. (1917). Torah Nevi’im u-Khetuvim. The Holy Scriptures according to the Masoretic text. Philadelphia, PA: Jewish Publication Society of America.
"And I will shed upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look to me, because they have thrust through, and they shall lament over him, as a lamentation over the only one, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for the firstborn."
Benisch, A. (1852–1864). Jewish School and Family Bible. London: Longman, Brown, Green, and Longmans; Longman and Co.
"But I will pour out over the house of David, and over the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they will look up toward me (for every one) whom they have thrust through, and they will lament for him, as one lamenteth for an only son, and weep bitterly for him, as one weepeth bitterly for the first-born."
Leeser, I. (1891). The Twenty-Four Books of the Holy Scriptures: Carefully Translated according to the Massoretic Text, on the Basis of the English Version, after the Best Jewish Authorities; and Supplied with Short Explanatory Notes (Fourth Edition). Cincinnati; Chicago: The Bloch Publishing and Printing Company.
The last one of these has a footnote!
The objective case is omitted in the original: “whom they have pierced” cannot be in apposition “to me,” because the next clause is, “they will lament for him,” not “me;” hence it is clear that the objective, “every one,” must be supplied, as has been done here.That sheds some light on it. Since the original meaning would imply that Jesus is Deity, the translator rather adds some phrase to obscure this implication...
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I lost my original post when I was editing it I think. (sorry to double/tripple post)
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Here is one educated opinion on how the verse should be translated (I will be sharing my opinion on it later):
Zechariah 12:10 - "Pierced him" or "Pierced me?"
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Opinions about the explanation differ, as the comments on Youtube show.
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@Jan said:
Opinions about the explanation differ, as the comments on Youtube show.And, is also demonstrated by how the various translators deal with the text.
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so then, which understanding reflected in these translations is the correct one? Which criteria should be used to determine which of two basically contradicting translations provides the correct and true text and meaning?
In one case, the translation claims that YHWH, God Himself, was pierced and died, in the other case, the one who was pierced and died was obviously a human being ? -
In his original post to open this topic "Is Jesus Deity?", David asked
@davidtaylorjr said:
Give your answer, to yes or no. ...Can Deity die and be buried for any length of time? I don't think so... thus my answer would be a simple: No!
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@Wolfgang said:
In his original post to open this topic "Is Jesus Deity?", David asked@davidtaylorjr said:
Give your answer, to yes or no. ...Can Deity die and be buried for any length of time? I don't think so... thus my answer would be a simple: No!
Just curious, but when you are buried someday for any length of time, is that just it? No more Wolfgang?
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@Wolfgang said:
In his original post to open this topic "Is Jesus Deity?", David asked@davidtaylorjr said:
Give your answer, to yes or no. ...Can Deity die and be buried for any length of time? I don't think so... thus my answer would be a simple: No!
The way I understand it is Jesus is God as far as his inner person. And he took on a human body and nature. Subject to death but without sin.
Jesus the divine person being God did not die, only his human body and related mental faculties died. And it was this body God raised from the dead and glorified, now in heaven on David's Throne.
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Gao, I have no clue what your question has to do with the question whether or not Deity (God) can die and be buried?
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If you think that when Jesus body died that He ceased to exist, then you have a point. But I suspect you don't believe that about yourself, so why would it apply only to Jesus? When the body of Jesus died, God did not cease to exist. When you die, you do not cease to exist.
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@GaoLu said:
If you think that when Jesus body died that He ceased to exist, then you have a point. But I suspect you don't believe that about yourself, so why would it apply only to Jesus? When the body of Jesus died, God did not cease to exist. When you die, you do not cease to exist.My Bible teaches rather plainly and clearly that God is immortal and therefore cannot die. It also teaches rather plainly and clearly that Jesus did in fact die and was buried. Thus, there must be something amiss with the idea that Jesus is God ... or else - if he is God - Jesus did perhaps not really die ??
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@Wolfgang said:
@GaoLu said:
If you think that when Jesus body died that He ceased to exist, then you have a point. But I suspect you don't believe that about yourself, so why would it apply only to Jesus? When the body of Jesus died, God did not cease to exist. When you die, you do not cease to exist.My Bible teaches rather plainly and clearly that God is immortal and therefore cannot die. It also teaches rather plainly and clearly that Jesus did in fact die and was buried. Thus, there must be something amiss with the idea that Jesus is God ... or else - if he is God - Jesus did perhaps not really die ??
If you consider Jesus is God with a human body, only the body died. Jesus told the thief he would be with him in paradise that day while his body remained in the grave 3 days and nights.
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@Dave_L said:
If you consider Jesus is God with a human body, only the body died.The problem with this idea is that the Bible knows nothing about God having a human body ...
@Dave_L said:
Jesus told the thief he would be with him in paradise that day while his body remained in the grave 3 days and nights.My Bible teaches that on that day there was no paradise in existence in the first place and it furthermore teaches that both Jesus and the thief after they died went to the grave (and not to paradise)
Seems clear that there is a translation -- actually punctuation -- problem in this verse which causes such an understanding as you mention which is contradictory to the rest of Scripture -
@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
If you consider Jesus is God with a human body, only the body died.The problem with this idea is that the Bible knows nothing about God having a human body ...
@Dave_L said:
Jesus told the thief he would be with him in paradise that day while his body remained in the grave 3 days and nights.My Bible teaches that on that day there was no paradise in existence in the first place and it furthermore teaches that both Jesus and the thief after they died went to the grave (and not to paradise)
Seems clear that there is a translation -- actually punctuation -- problem in this verse which causes such an understanding as you mention which is contradictory to the rest of ScriptureWhen Christians die their spirit goes to heaven. Paradise is a synonym for heaven.
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@Dave_L said:
When Christians die their spirit goes to heaven. Paradise is a synonym for heaven.I read nothing like that in the Bible ...
Furthermore, the thief was NOT asking about heaven or paradise in his request to Jesus, but his concern was about being remembered when Jesus would come into his kingdom ... which certainly did not happen on that day either -
@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
When Christians die their spirit goes to heaven. Paradise is a synonym for heaven.I read nothing like that in the Bible ...
Furthermore, the thief was NOT asking about heaven or paradise in his request to Jesus, but his concern was about being remembered when Jesus would come into his kingdom ... which certainly did not happen on that day eitherThe Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God are interchangeable terms. And both exist in Heaven and Earth. To believe in Christ is to enter both.
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@Dave_L said:
The Kingdom of Heaven and Kingdom of God are interchangeable terms. And both exist in Heaven and Earth. To believe in Christ is to enter both.Jesus obviously did not believe that his reign had already started during his earthly ministry, or why would he have taught about it "being near" ? When was Christ installed on the throne ... was it on that day when he was crucified? Obviously not ...
You yourself have mentioned about the ascension and Christ being seated on his throne after that .... which did not happen on the day of the crucifixion.Your comment makes it look as if the thief's question was meaningless ... seeing that the thief was obviously requesting something he knew and understood to be in the future at that time and not on that very day
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Scripture speaks of the kingdom of God in the OT. Also in the NT. We enter it through the New Birth. And those not born again cannot see it.
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@Dave_L said:
Scripture speaks of the kingdom of God in the OT. Also in the NT. We enter it through the New Birth. And those not born again cannot see it.So you think Jesus was wrong by talking about "the kingdom of heaven is near" ... because it was -- according to you -- not near but already around for a long time ?
I rather consider Jesus' words to be true ...To get back on toipic: My point in reply to the original question was that since Jesus did truly die, he could not be God because the Bible teaches that God can NOT die.
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@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
Scripture speaks of the kingdom of God in the OT. Also in the NT. We enter it through the New Birth. And those not born again cannot see it.So you think Jesus was wrong by talking about "the kingdom of heaven is near" ... because it was -- according to you -- not near but already around for a long time ?
I rather consider Jesus' words to be true ...To get back on toipic: My point in reply to the original question was that since Jesus did truly die, he could not be God because the Bible teaches that God can NOT die.
Jesus said ““The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.” (Luke 16:16)
But: “Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3)
Jesus did not die spiritually. Just as Christians never die spiritually. Our body dies and we go immediately to Heaven. It was Jesus' blood that atoned for sin.
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And what do these verses have to do with the topic and in particular with the point that God can NOT die but Jesus did die?
You rather boldly claim above that Jesus actually did not really die ... if he didn't, then there is no accomplished redemption and salvation -
@Wolfgang said:
And what do these verses have to do with the topic and in particular with the point that God can NOT die but Jesus did die?
You rather boldly claim above that Jesus actually did not really die ... if he didn't, then there is no accomplished redemption and salvationOnly Jesus' body died. God cannot die. His blood atoned for believer's sins completely.
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@Dave_L said:
Only Jesus' body died. God cannot die. His blood atoned for believer's sins completely.Well, if only part of Jesus died, he himself did not really die ... since there was no real death, there is no accomplished work of redemption.
In contrast to your idea, I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus did really (and not just partially) die and accomplished the mission for which he was sent ... which then means that Jesus could not have been God, because God can NOT (not even partially) die.
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@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
Only Jesus' body died. God cannot die. His blood atoned for believer's sins completely.Well, if only part of Jesus died, he himself did not really die ... since there was no real death, there is no accomplished work of redemption.
In contrast to your idea, I believe the Bible teaches that Jesus did really (and not just partially) die and accomplished the mission for which he was sent ... which then means that Jesus could not have been God, because God can NOT (not even partially) die.
You are demanding more from Jesus than God did. It is the blood that atones for sin. Romans 5:9
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