Is Jesus Deity?
Comments
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@Dave_L said:
If Jesus was God, we have the imputed righteousness of God that merits eternal life. If Jesus was only a good man, we have man's righteousness that only merits the life Adam had before he sinned.Thanks Dave for your input. It may be helpful to define your terms. They could mean something else to another reader: e.g. "Imputed righteousness"; "man's righteousness"; "imputed"; "righteousness", etc.
Given the diversity of users background, certain terms mean something completely different. Hey, and sometimes, we're on the same page of understanding. Enjoy, rest, and post. CM
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As you can see from reading the rest of this post, I have considered each of your points and answered to them in detail .... I would appreciate if you in your reply would do the same with any points and questions I asked below ...
@C_M_ said:
@Wolfgang said:
However, did Mary give birth to God? I would think not, as human women can only conceive and give birth to human beings. Women do not conceive or give birth to "God-men" or "men-Gods" ... such silly ideas may be widespread in ancient mythologies and even modern day so-called "Christianity", but they are not found in Scripture and are not in accordance with Bible truth.I am still waiting for your reply to this point ...
**Matthew 1:21 **-- "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."
Luke 1:31-- "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS."
1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" (John 1: 1-3, 11-14).So you give me some verses which speak of the birth of Jesus, who was born of Mary. BUT none of these verses answers my question to what Mary gave birth! Was her son a human being, was it God, was it some "God-man/man-God" (sort of like a different kind of "transgender"), or something else ?
@C_M_ said:
God can do anything, wherever, with whomever, whenever, for whatever; He chooses. He is not to slave to power nor does He do things arbitrarily.So you think He would chose something that is against the very laws He has set up? In other words, He would produce something contrary to what He Himself as put in place (such as human females, women. only giving birth to human children) ?? In other words, Babylonian, Greek, Egyptian and other ancient mythology is correct in their idea that women could actually conceive and give birth to God(s) ?
Based on Biblical testimony, I consider your above statement to not quite be accurate ... I do know, however, that it is often made by Trinity adherents "to explain" what is unreasonable, illogical and contradictory! Thus, it only makes their errors worse ...@C_M_ said:
He is a God of love, principles, and order. Unfortunately, God methods, timing, and means may not fit your preconceived mind or be beyond your comprehension. Nothing to be ashamed of, you are just a man.See above ... I am not taking some arbitrary idea of mine as measure (as - by the way - Trinity adherents do, just as you display here) but compare and understand Scripture in harmony with God's laws, God's order, God's principles ... Eh, did I come up with the idea that women can only give birth to human progeny? of course not, such has been the case and order from the beginning of mankind, because GOD established it as that!!
@C_M_ said:
You have several skills and abilities, but you don't have the mind of God. What God has revealed is to be received and believed. What we don't understand, we trust (faith) Him where we can't trace Him.God has revealed that Jesus was conceived and born of Mary and thus a human being, as a son he was a male human being. This is what God has revealed. So then, who is trying to guess and assume about the supposed "mind of God" by speculating beyond that which God has revealed? YOU are, if you insist on more than what has been revealed.
@C_M_ said:
Hebrews 11:6 - But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Hebrews 11:6). At the end of the day, “The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.” (Deut 29:29-KJV).I've already addressed this .... and repeat: How can you say that God is a Trinity, when God has NOT anywhere revealed such and when even the teachers of the Trinity dogma affirm that the Trinity is a "secret thing (mystery)" ???
@C_M_ said:
Who can know God, except he reveals Himself? Whatever, God has revealed, it is only the "tip of the iceberg" when it comes to who He is, His power and how He relates to man.So then why would you as an adherent to the Trinity dogma follow those who claim they know more of the tip of the iceberg by declaring that they know that God is a Trinity ? Has God not revealed in Scripture rather clearly that He is only ONE and not Two, Three, or more ?? Who are you to know more than what God has revealed??
@C_M_ said:
Keep reading the Bible, God gives us some insights. Not everything, but some insights in his dealings with man. And oh, you can get to know yourself. Peace-joy! CM?? are trying to give me and advice on something you yourself should be doing?
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@Mitchell said:
Here a two NT texts that have lead some to understand Paul as speaking of Messiah as being a conduit for God.θεὸς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί
"...God revealed(or manifest) in the flesh..." (I Timothy 3:16)ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς
"because in him resides (is residing) all the fulness of the Deity/Godhead bodily..."(Colossians 2:9)Unfortunately, some consider these not to be speaking of Messiah as "A CONDUIT for God", but claim that Paul in these statements says that Messiah actually IS GOD.
Most definitely, in what Messiah did and accomplished, God accomplished He plan ... but not because Messiah was Himself God, rather because Messiah submitted his will to God's will and carried out fully what God had sent him to do.
Yes, in what Jesus (the man of flesh and blood) did, people could see / recognize what God wanted done and what God -- by means of Messiah -- did. This however, does NOT mean in any way that Messiah IS God.
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@Dave_L said:
If Jesus was God, we have the imputed righteousness of God that merits eternal life. If Jesus was only a good man, we have man's righteousness that only merits the life Adam had before he sinned.what's the purpose of repeating yet another time what has already been said ? especially so, since you are not adding any further insight or aspect to what you already wrote (and to which I already replied) ...
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I probably should have explained "imputation" according to Paul in Romans 5. In this case God imputed Adam's sin to his children. God then imputed the sins of Christ's children to Him. And then imputed Christ's righteousness to them, his children.
Since Jesus is YHWH his children are worthy of eternal life, having God's infinite righteousness laid to their account.
Had Jesus not been YHWH, and merely a sinless man, we would not have infinite righteousness, much less the eternal life of God it merits. We would only have finate righteousness and the finite life it merits.
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@Dave_L said:
I probably should have explained "imputation" according to Paul in Romans 5. In this case God imputed Adam's sin to his children. God then imputed the sins of Christ's children to Him. And then imputed Christ's righteousness to them, his children.Since Jesus is YHWH his children are worthy of eternal life, having God's infinite righteousness laid to their account.
Had Jesus not been YHWH, and merely a sinless man, we would not have infinite righteousness, much less the eternal life of God it merits. We would only have finate righteousness and the finite life it merits.
This too has already been posted (with a few wording changes) previously ... so why the repetition, if there is nothing new or really different? I already answered to all the points you raised ...
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It is important because finate human righteousness cannot merit the rewards of infinite righteousness. Had Jesus not been God, we could not be entitled to the things of God, including eternal life.
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@Dave_L said:
It is important because finate human righteousness cannot merit the rewards of infinite righteousness. Had Jesus not been God, we could not be entitled to the things of God, including eternal life.where is this idea of "finite human righteousness" and "infinite divine righteousness" come from? No such idea is found in Scripture ... seems like a conclusion you are drawing from some unrelated point of "finite" vs "infinite" ??
Scripture speaks of someone being either righteous or unrighteous ... no two kinds of "righteous" (or two kinds of unrighteous) -
Christians are said to have Christ's righteousness and not their own. “For ignoring the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking instead to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes.” (Romans 10:3–4)
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@Dave_L said:
Christians are said to have Christ's righteousness and not their own. “For ignoring the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking instead to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes.” (Romans 10:3–4)Of course they do not have their "own righteousness" (that is, righteousness for which they themselves worked to earn it), rather they have "God's righteousness" (because God gave it based on the achievements and earnings of Christ).
Righteousness itself is being righteous ... there are no shades or levels of being righteous, one is either righteous or unrighteous! The difference - and that to which "their own" and "God's" refers is the origin (!) of the righteousness.
Simple illustration:
I have a debt, I am in a state of unrighteousness in that regard.
Now, if I worked it out and of my own works got the money to pay the debt, I would have achieved "my own righteousness" (that is, righteousness as earned by my own works).
If you came along and saw this unrighteous me and decided to be my benefactor and you would offer to pay the debt for me, and I would put my trust in you and accept your offer, I would receive "Dave's righteousness" (that is, righteousness as Dave's gift).
The righteousness itself would be the same in either case, namely the debt fully paid. The difference indicated by "my own [righteousness]" and "Dave's [righteousness]" would be where the means for this righteousness were ... in the one case, in my own works; in the other case, in Dave's gift. -
@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
Christians are said to have Christ's righteousness and not their own. “For ignoring the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking instead to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes.” (Romans 10:3–4)Of course they do not have their "own righteousness" (that is, righteousness for which they themselves worked to earn it), rather they have "God's righteousness" (because God gave it based on the achievements and earnings of Christ).
Righteousness itself is being righteous ... there are no shades or levels of being righteous, one is either righteous or unrighteous! The difference - and that to which "their own" and "God's" refers is the origin (!) of the righteousness.
Simple illustration:
I have a debt, I am in a state of unrighteousness in that regard.
Now, if I worked it out and of my own works got the money to pay the debt, I would have achieved "my own righteousness" (that is, righteousness as earned by my own works).
If you came along and saw this unrighteous me and decided to be my benefactor and you would offer to pay the debt for me, and I would put my trust in you and accept your offer, I would receive "Dave's righteousness" (that is, righteousness as Dave's gift).
The righteousness itself would be the same in either case, namely the debt fully paid. The difference indicated by "my own [righteousness]" and "Dave's [righteousness]" would be where the means for this righteousness were ... in the one case, in my own works; in the other case, in Dave's gift.Good illustration. But We received two benefits from Christ. The payment for our sins. And the imputation of his righteousness. Just as God imputed Adam's sin to us (See Romans 5), God imputed Jesus' righteousness to us. So God sees us as perfectly righteous in Christ just as he saw us unrighteous in Adam. Even though we had nothing to do with either at the time they represented us.
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@Dave_L said:
Good illustration. But We received two benefits from Christ. The payment for our sins. And the imputation of his righteousness.Well, I received two benefits from you being my benefactor to solve my unrighteousness .... the payment for my debt, and the imputation of righteousness (as a result of your payment for my debt) ... so what is your point ??
@Dave_L said:
Just as God imputed Adam's sin to us (See Romans 5),This is an incorrect statement ... God did NOT impute Adam's sin to us, we are in sin trouble because WE SINNED (cp Rom 5:12 - "Röm 5,12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" )
Yes, "by one man sin entered into the world", but "death passed upon all men, because all have sinned". The text does NOT say "death - as the wages of sin - passed on all men, because on man [Adam] sinned" !! This idea of an inherited sin is a false teaching.@Dave_L said:
God imputed Jesus' righteousness to us.God imputed righteousness to us on account of the payment Jesus made with his sin-offering. Just as a court may impute the status of righteousness to me on account of Dave's payment for my debt. But please note, IF I had made the payment, the state of righteousness after the debt cleared would be just as righteous as when Dave had made the payment ... no difference in "size of" or "quality of" righteousness.
@Dave_L said:
So God sees us as perfectly righteous in Christ just as he saw us unrighteous in Adam.Careful ... we are "righteous in Christ" because of the work that was accomplished by Christ and imputed to us, but we are "unrighteous in Adam", but we become unrighteous because of our own sin when we sinned.
@Dave_L said:
Even though we had nothing to do with either at the time they represented us.Careful again ... we had something to do with both the "unrighteous" as well as the "righteous" situation => when we sinned (cp Rom 5:12, see above) we became unrighteous; when we put our trust in Jesus' sin-sacrifice we became righteous because God imputed righteousness to us.
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You are missing the entire point of sin and grace. “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made (Greek Constituted/considered) sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made (Greek Constituted/considered) righteous.” (Romans 5:19)
Just as we had nothing to do with Adam's sin, we had nothing to do with Christ's righteousness. But God considered all sinful in Adam. And he considers all of Christ's people infinitely righteous in him.
That is, God saved you on Christ's merits alone before you were ever born or did any good or bad. That is, if you truly believe in him.
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@Dave_L said:
You are missing the entire point of sin and grace. “For as by one man’s disobedience many were made (Greek Constituted/considered) sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made (Greek Constituted/considered) righteous.” (Romans 5:19)I don't think I am missing anything regarding sin and grace ...
On account of Adam's disobedience, sin entered the world, without which many could not have sinned and would not have been made sinners.
On account of Jesus' obedience, God could justly extend His grace to those who put their trust in Christ and many could be made righteous by God@Dave_L said:
Just as we had nothing to do with Adam's sin, we had nothing to do with Christ's righteousness.Indeed ... we did not have anything to do with Adam sinning and his disobedience to God ... but we surely have to do and are held responsible for OUR sin.
Indeed ... we did not have anything to do with Christ doing the will of God and his obedience to God ... but we surely have to do and are held responsible for believing (trusting) or not believing (not trusting) in Christ's redemptive work.@Dave_L said:
But God considered all sinful in Adam. And he considers all of Christ's people infinitely righteous in him.These are both false statements ...
God does not account the sin of one to others, therefore God accounts those as sinners who sin!
All of Christ's people are indeed considered righteous because by having faith (putting their trust, believing) in Christ and his accomplished work of redemption, they have been made righteous (whereas before believing in Christ they were unrighteous and sinners.@Dave_L said:
That is, God saved you on Christ's merits alone before you were ever born or did any good or bad. That is, if you truly believe in him.A confusing statement ... Yes, God saved me on Christ's merits (just as a court would declare me debtfree afte Dave's payment of my debt as my benefactor). This was NOT before I was ever born or did any good or bad (as long as I had not incurred the debt, there was no need for any payment for a debt).
Yes, when we truly believe in Christ, God saves us on account of Christ's accomplished work. If we refuse to believe in him, we remain sinners and unrighteous.Side note: Please do not now come with your Calvinism inspired theologies that have already been discussed at great length in the past. The topic of this thread/discussion is not about salvation, sin, grace, etc but about whether or not Jesus is God.
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I'm not a Calvinist but share some similarities. But if you had anything to do with your salvation then salvation is not of grace. And if Jesus is not God, you do not have eternal life, you have only the life Adam had before he sinned. Because it takes a godly level of righteousness to merit eternal life. And that is the righteousness Paul speaks of as being imputed to those who by grace believe.
“And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:” (Acts 18:27)
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But if you had anything to do with your salvation then salvation is not of grace.
I find that logic baffling. If I have nothing to do with my salvation, then I am not saved. If I exist, I have something to do with my salvation if only being the object of it. But Scripturally there is clearly more.
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@Dave_L said:
And if Jesus is not God, you do not have eternal life, you have only the life Adam had >before he sinned.The way above statement is currently written presents a false exclusionary disjunct
@Dave_L said:
You are missing the entire point of sin and grace. “For as by one man’s disobedience >many were made (Greek Constituted/considered) sinners, so by the obedience of one >shall many be made (Greek Constituted/considered) righteous.” (Romans 5:19)A word with the semantic meaning 'constituted' or 'considered' does not appear in the Greek text of Romans 5:19 (or at least not in any Greek text I have access to). Two conjugations of the lexeme καθίστημι occur in this passage and it is that word that is usually translated as 'made'. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature 2000 : on page 492. presents 3 main meanings/headings for this word:
① to take someone somewhere, bring, conduct, take
② to assign someone a position of authority, appoint, put in charge
③ cause someone to experience someth., make, causeThe above of course only represent the opinion of one dictionary/lexicon but let's take a look at a few more opinions
2770 καθίστημι (kathistēmi): vb. [see also 2769]; ≡ Str 2525—1. LN 37.104 appoint, put in charge, designate (Mt 24:45); 2. LN 13.9 cause to be, make (Ac 7:10, 27, 35; Ro 5:19+)
Swanson, James. Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) 1997 : n. pag. Print.
καθίστημι and καθιστάνω (fut. καταστήσω ; aor. κατέστησα ; aor. pass. κατεστάθην ; fut. pass. κατασταθήσομαι ) put in charge; make (someone to be something); appoint; accompany (Ac 17:15); midd. prove to be, be (Jas 3:6; 4:4)
Newman, Barclay M., Jr. A Concise Greek-English dictionary of the New Testament. 1993 : 90. Print.
καθίστημι I appoint, authorize (21, cv-6a) καταστήσω, κατέστησα, ——, ——, κατεστάθην
Mounce, William D. Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar. Ed. Verlyn D. Verbrugge. Third Edition. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2009. Print.
καθίστημι — set down; appoint; establish (217×) +NT +AF
The Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Septuagint 2012 : n. pag. Print.
καθίστημι V 29-63-17-45-64=218
Gn 39,4.5; 41,33.34.41
A to set (down), to bring to [τινα εἴς τι] 1 Sm 5,3; to place [τινα] Nm 4,19; to appoint to do [τι +inf.] Nm 21,15; to set over, to appoint over [τινα ἐπί τινος] Gn 39,4; id. [τινα ἐπί τινα] Ex 5,14; id. [τινα ἐπί τι] 1 Kgs 11,28; to commit to, to appoint for [τί τινι] 1 Mc 7,20; to establish [τι] Sir 46,13; to set in order, to restore [τι] Is 49,8; to make, to render so and so [τι +pred.] Est 3,13b; to appoint to be, to establish sb as [τινα +pred.] Gn 47,5; id. [τινα εἴς τινα] 2 Sm 6,21; to make sb do [τινα +inf.] Dt 1,15
M to stand (up) Neh 13,19; to come before, to stand in the presence of [ἐναντίον τινός] Jos 20,3; id. [ἐνώπιόν τινος] 1 Sm 1,9; to stand up 1 Sm 30,12; to settle (down) 2 Chr 25,3; to stand up against [κατά τινος] Dt 19,16
P to become, to be made [+pred.] Est 8,12x; to be established Ps 96 (97),1
καθέστηκα to have become, to be Wis 10,7; οἱ καθεσταμένοι ἐπὶ πάντα Ισραηλ the officers over all of Israel 1 Kgs 4,7; κατέστη ἐπὶ τὴν βασιλείαν he became king 2 Chr 21,5; κατάστητε ἐν ταῖς περικεφαλαίαις stand ready with your helmets Jer 26 (46),4; κατασταθήσεται ἐκ τοῦ ὀνόματος τοῦ τετελευτηκότος it shall be named by the name of the deceased Dt 25,6; καθεστηκὼς πρεσβύτης someone growing old Dt 32,25; καθεστηκὸς ὕδωρ stagnant water Ez 34,18Lust, Johan, Erik Eynikel, and Katrin Hauspie. A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint : Revised Edition 2003 : n. pag. Print.
καθίστημι kathistēmi; from 2596 and 2476; to set in order, appoint:—appoint(1), appointed(4), appoints(1), escorted(1), made(5), makes(1), put … in charge(4), put in charge(3), render(1), set(1).
Thomas, Robert L. New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : updated edition 1998 : n. pag. Print.
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@Wolfgang said:
...The topic of this thread/discussion is not about salvation, sin, grace, etc but about whether or not Jesus is God.Thank you, Wolfgang, for reminding us all of that!
Throughout this thread, I think a number of red herrings and Ignoratio elenchi have been used in order to avoid dealing with both the topic of this thread (Is Jesus Deity) and with the scriptures that actually address that topic.
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@Mitchell said:
@Dave_L said:
You are missing the entire point of sin and grace. “For as by one man’s disobedience >many were made (Greek Constituted/considered) sinners, so by the obedience of one >shall many be made (Greek Constituted/considered) righteous.” (Romans 5:19)A word with the semantic meaning 'constituted' or 'considered' does not appear in the Greek text of Romans 5:19 (or at least not in any Greek text I have access to). Two conjugations of the lexeme καθίστημι occur in this passage and it is that word that is usually translated as 'made'. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature 2000 : on page 492. presents 3 main meanings/headings for this word:
If what Mitchell uncovered, a simple question is, Dave, what is the source of this: "For as by one man’s disobedience >many were made (Greek Constituted/considered) **sinners, so by the obedience of one >shall many be made **(Greek Constituted/considered) righteous.” (Romans 5:19)?
Or, is this a self-translation/interpretation? If it's a published source, we all need to be aware it and critique it for what it is. If it's your own, take heed to correction. Peace, brother! CM -
@GaoLu said:
But if you had anything to do with your salvation then salvation is not of grace.
I find that logic baffling. If I have nothing to do with my salvation, then I am not saved. If I exist, I have something to do with my salvation if only being the object of it. But Scripturally there is clearly more.
What did you do to end up being placed on the saved list?
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@Mitchell said:
@Dave_L said:
And if Jesus is not God, you do not have eternal life, you have only the life Adam had >before he sinned.The way above statement is currently written presents a false exclusionary disjunct
@Dave_L said:
You are missing the entire point of sin and grace. “For as by one man’s disobedience >many were made (Greek Constituted/considered) sinners, so by the obedience of one >shall many be made (Greek Constituted/considered) righteous.” (Romans 5:19)A word with the semantic meaning 'constituted' or 'considered' does not appear in the Greek text of Romans 5:19 (or at least not in any Greek text I have access to). Two conjugations of the lexeme καθίστημι occur in this passage and it is that word that is usually translated as 'made'. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature 2000 : on page 492. presents 3 main meanings/headings for this word:
① to take someone somewhere, bring, conduct, take
② to assign someone a position of authority, appoint, put in charge
③ cause someone to experience someth., make, causeThe above of course only represent the opinion of one dictionary/lexicon but let's take a look at a few more opinions
2770 καθίστημι (kathistēmi): vb. [see also 2769]; ≡ Str 2525—1. LN 37.104 appoint, put in charge, designate (Mt 24:45); 2. LN 13.9 cause to be, make (Ac 7:10, 27, 35; Ro 5:19+)
Swanson, James. Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains: Greek (New Testament) 1997 : n. pag. Print.
καθίστημι and καθιστάνω (fut. καταστήσω ; aor. κατέστησα ; aor. pass. κατεστάθην ; fut. pass. κατασταθήσομαι ) put in charge; make (someone to be something); appoint; accompany (Ac 17:15); midd. prove to be, be (Jas 3:6; 4:4)
Newman, Barclay M., Jr. A Concise Greek-English dictionary of the New Testament. 1993 : 90. Print.
καθίστημι I appoint, authorize (21, cv-6a) καταστήσω, κατέστησα, ——, ——, κατεστάθην
Mounce, William D. Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar. Ed. Verlyn D. Verbrugge. Third Edition. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2009. Print.
καθίστημι — set down; appoint; establish (217×) +NT +AF
The Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Septuagint 2012 : n. pag. Print.
καθίστημι V 29-63-17-45-64=218
Gn 39,4.5; 41,33.34.41
A to set (down), to bring to [τινα εἴς τι] 1 Sm 5,3; to place [τινα] Nm 4,19; to appoint to do [τι +inf.] Nm 21,15; to set over, to appoint over [τινα ἐπί τινος] Gn 39,4; id. [τινα ἐπί τινα] Ex 5,14; id. [τινα ἐπί τι] 1 Kgs 11,28; to commit to, to appoint for [τί τινι] 1 Mc 7,20; to establish [τι] Sir 46,13; to set in order, to restore [τι] Is 49,8; to make, to render so and so [τι +pred.] Est 3,13b; to appoint to be, to establish sb as [τινα +pred.] Gn 47,5; id. [τινα εἴς τινα] 2 Sm 6,21; to make sb do [τινα +inf.] Dt 1,15
M to stand (up) Neh 13,19; to come before, to stand in the presence of [ἐναντίον τινός] Jos 20,3; id. [ἐνώπιόν τινος] 1 Sm 1,9; to stand up 1 Sm 30,12; to settle (down) 2 Chr 25,3; to stand up against [κατά τινος] Dt 19,16
P to become, to be made [+pred.] Est 8,12x; to be established Ps 96 (97),1
καθέστηκα to have become, to be Wis 10,7; οἱ καθεσταμένοι ἐπὶ πάντα Ισραηλ the officers over all of Israel 1 Kgs 4,7; κατέστη ἐπὶ τὴν βασιλείαν he became king 2 Chr 21,5; κατάστητε ἐν ταῖς περικεφαλαίαις stand ready with your helmets Jer 26 (46),4; κατασταθήσεται ἐκ τοῦ ὀνόματος τοῦ τετελευτηκότος it shall be named by the name of the deceased Dt 25,6; καθεστηκὼς πρεσβύτης someone growing old Dt 32,25; καθεστηκὸς ὕδωρ stagnant water Ez 34,18Lust, Johan, Erik Eynikel, and Katrin Hauspie. A Greek-English Lexicon of the Septuagint : Revised Edition 2003 : n. pag. Print.
καθίστημι kathistēmi; from 2596 and 2476; to set in order, appoint:—appoint(1), appointed(4), appoints(1), escorted(1), made(5), makes(1), put … in charge(4), put in charge(3), render(1), set(1).
Thomas, Robert L. New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek dictionaries : updated edition 1998 : n. pag. Print.
If you have only your own righteousness instead of Christ's imputed righteousness, you are lost and do not understand grace.
“So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of ‘Righteous’ it is to all men to justification of life; for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.” (Romans 5:18–19) YLT
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@C_M_ said:
@Mitchell said:
@Dave_L said:
You are missing the entire point of sin and grace. “For as by one man’s disobedience >many were made (Greek Constituted/considered) sinners, so by the obedience of one >shall many be made (Greek Constituted/considered) righteous.” (Romans 5:19)A word with the semantic meaning 'constituted' or 'considered' does not appear in the Greek text of Romans 5:19 (or at least not in any Greek text I have access to). Two conjugations of the lexeme καθίστημι occur in this passage and it is that word that is usually translated as 'made'. A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature 2000 : on page 492. presents 3 main meanings/headings for this word:
If what Mitchell uncovered, a simple question is, Dave, what is the source of this: "For as by one man’s disobedience >many were made (Greek Constituted/considered) **sinners, so by the obedience of one >shall many be made **(Greek Constituted/considered) righteous.” (Romans 5:19)?
Or, is this a self-translation/interpretation? If it's a published source, we all need to be aware it and critique it for what it is. If it's your own, take heed to correction. Peace, brother! CMThis is a common understanding of the text. In theology called the doctrine of Imputation. Apart from understanding this, one is helplessly bogged down trusting in their own righteousness as their grounds of acceptance with God, instead of trusting in Christ's righteousness in their behalf.
IMPUTATION—is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language (1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty; (2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and (3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our “law-place,” undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins. In all these cases the nature of imputation is the same (Rom. 5:12–19; comp. Philemon 1:18, 19).
Easton, M. G. (1893). In Easton’s Bible dictionary. New York: Harper & Brothers.
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Back on topic: If Jesus was not God, we would not have divine righteousness imputed to us. Divine righteousness merits eternal life. Human righteousness in finite. It merits only finite (non eternal) life.
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@Dave_L said:
Back on topic: If Jesus was not God, we would not have divine righteousness imputed to us. Divine righteousness merits eternal life. Human righteousness in finite. It merits only finite (non eternal) life.Once again, you are just rehashing an earlier statement of yours to which replies already have been made which showed your idea of different "righteousnesses" to not be correct.
Further comments to this are not needed.
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@Dave_L said:
If you have only your own righteousness instead of Christ's imputed righteousness, >you are lost and do not understand grace.I think the above is worded a lot clearer, however, one may be lost and yet understand the meaning of grace. Unless understanding grace is somehow a prerequisite for receiving grace.
Ah, so that rendering came from Young's Literal Translation from 1862. This is interesting. I do not know much about the history of the English language or how it was used Scotland were he Young grew up and lived. So, it will be interesting to see what range of meaning constituted' had back then and how it was used in that time and place. In modern American English I believe that 'constituted' is an inadequate translation καθίστημι. Robert Young was an amazing dedicated Christian scholar as he taught himself classical Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek and opened his own printing press.
@Dave_L said:
Back on topic: If Jesus was not God...The above is not the topic of the thread.
The actual is simply: "Is Jesus Deity?" -
@Dave_L said:
This is a common understanding of the text. In theology called the doctrine of Imputation.
IMPUTATION—is used to designate any action or word or thing as reckoned to a person. Thus in doctrinal language (1) the sin of Adam is imputed to all his descendants, i.e., it is reckoned as theirs, and they are dealt with therefore as guilty; (2) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them that believe in him, or so attributed to them as to be considered their own; and (3) our sins are imputed to Christ, i.e., he assumed our “law-place,” undertook to answer the demands of justice for our sins. In all these cases the nature of imputation is the same (Rom. 5:12–19; comp. Philemon 1:18, 19).
Easton, M. G. (1893). In Easton’s Bible dictionary. New York: Harper & Brothers.As I commented in an earlier post on these points when they were listed in a post, I can only repeat that what is stated here for "imputation" is incorrect and unscriptural
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@Mitchell said:
@Dave_L said:
If you have only your own righteousness instead of Christ's imputed righteousness, >you are lost and do not understand grace.I think the above is worded a lot clearer, however, one may be lost and yet understand the meaning of grace. Unless understanding grace is somehow a prerequisite for receiving grace.
Ah, so that rendering came from Young's Literal Translation from 1862. This is interesting. I do not know much about the history of the English language or how it was used Scotland were he Young grew up and lived. So, it will be interesting to see what range of meaning constituted' had back then and how it was used in that time and place. In modern American English I believe that 'constituted' is an inadequate translation καθίστημι. Robert Young was an amazing dedicated Christian scholar as he taught himself classical Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek and opened his own printing press.
@Dave_L said:
Back on topic: If Jesus was not God...The above is not the topic of the thread.
The actual is simply: "Is Jesus Deity?"How can Jesus' Deity not be the topic of the thread "Is Jesus Deity"? All I'm saying is if he is not God, then we cannot merit eternal life based on his imputed righteousness.
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@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
Back on topic: If Jesus was not God, we would not have divine righteousness imputed to us. Divine righteousness merits eternal life. Human righteousness in finite. It merits only finite (non eternal) life.Once again, you are just rehashing an earlier statement of yours to which replies already have been made which showed your idea of different "righteousnesses" to not be correct.
Further comments to this are not needed.
We cannot have the level of righteousness that merits eternal life apart from "imputation". And if Jesus is not God, we have only Adam's finate righteousness instead.
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@Dave_L said:
We cannot have the level of righteousness that merits eternal life apart from "imputation". And if Jesus is not God, we have only Adam's finate righteousness instead.Since there are no "levels of righteousness" anywhere found in Scripture (and only in incorrect interpretations, based on non-scriptural doctrines, such as "imputation"), the points you make here are incorrect.
IF Jesus was God, he could not have been the sin-sacrifice for sin ... since not God's death was needed but the sacrificial death of a man for reason that it had been a man by whom sin entered in to the world (cp Rom 5:12ff)
Just as on the one side, the death of an animal was not sufficient, so on the other side the death of God would have been non applicable.
It's all very simple ... reasonable and logical in light of what Scripture actually does state.
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@Wolfgang said:
@Dave_L said:
We cannot have the level of righteousness that merits eternal life apart from "imputation". And if Jesus is not God, we have only Adam's finate righteousness instead.Since there are no "levels of righteousness" anywhere found in Scripture (and only in incorrect interpretations, based on non-scriptural doctrines, such as "imputation"), the points you make here are incorrect.
IF Jesus was God, he could not have been the sin-sacrifice for sin ... since not God's death was needed but the sacrificial death of a man for reason that it had been a man by whom sin entered in to the world (cp Rom 5:12ff)
Just as on the one side, the death of an animal was not sufficient, so on the other side the death of God would have been non applicable.
It's all very simple ... reasonable and logical in light of what Scripture actually does state.
Two levels of righteousness: “and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is of God on the basis of faith,” (Philippians 3:9)
Jesus was God in a human body. The bodily sacrifice paid for our sins. The righteousness of God merited "eternal life" for us.
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