Does Christ’s Atonement provide for Physical Healing Today?

Dave_L
Dave_L Posts: 2,362
edited March 2018 in Bible Questions

I think anyone would agree to saying if we sin in ways that create health problems and get sick, if we repent of the sins, God will naturally heal us. That is, up to the point our body can recover. So yes, the atonement provides healing from sin caused diseases through God’s forgiveness of sin and repentance.

But does the atonement provide physical healing through the same faith it takes to save the spirit? By faith we expect everlasting healing of our spirit now, and of our body and soul on the last day. But can we expect physical healing now through the same faith that saves our spirit?

Many say no. They think God limits healing to spiritual healing only, and not to physical healing. But James says the prayer of faith will heal the sick. So, if the same faith needed to heal the soul will heal the sick, why do we not see more physical healing of the body?

I believe the reason centers on faith as a supernatural fruit of the Holy Spirit. And just as God provides faith for the evidence of salvation unseen, he also provides or withholds faith in areas not in his eternal plan for us. But if we pray for healing, and he provides faith, then faith tells us healing is part of his eternal plan for us. And we can expect healing just as we expect salvation.

Faith is something God creates in us and not something we create (Hebrews 12:2).

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  • dct112685
    dct112685 Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:
    I think anyone would agree to saying if we sin in ways that create health problems and get sick, if we repent of the sins, God will naturally heal us. That is, up to the point our body can recover. So yes, the atonement provides healing from sin caused diseases through God’s forgiveness of sin and repentance.

    I don't agree with that. There are Christians with HIV because of past sins and it is not cured.

    But does the atonement provide physical healing through the same faith it takes to save the spirit? By faith we expect everlasting healing of our spirit now, and of our body and soul on the last day. But can we expect physical healing now through the same faith that saves our spirit?

    We can ask for it, but it is not guaranteed.

    Many say no. They think God limits healing to spiritual healing only, and not to physical healing. But James says the prayer of faith will heal the sick. So, if the same faith needed to heal the soul will heal the sick, why do we not see more physical healing of the body?

    Nobody is limiting God to spiritual healing only, that's a terrible misrepresentation.

    I believe the reason centers on faith as a supernatural fruit of the Holy Spirit. And just as God provides faith for the evidence of salvation unseen, he also provides or withholds faith in areas not in his eternal plan for us. But if we pray for healing, and he provides faith, then faith tells us healing is part of his eternal plan for us. And we can expect healing just as we expect salvation.

    Faith is something God creates in us and not something we create (Hebrews 12:2).

    This goes back to our discussion on Is. 53.5 which has nothing to do with Physical Healing.

    Sin has consequences outside of just spiritual death. Just because we repent doesn't mean the consequences magically disappear. There is no biblical support for that at all.

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  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:
    I think anyone would agree to saying if we sin in ways that create health problems and get sick, if we repent of the sins, God will naturally heal us. That is, up to the point our body can recover. So yes, the atonement provides healing from sin caused diseases through God’s forgiveness of sin and repentance.

    I don't agree with that. There are Christians with HIV because of past sins and it is not cured.

    • Thanks for your comments. Notice I said God naturally heals us "up to the point our body can recover".

    But does the atonement provide physical healing through the same faith it takes to save the spirit? By faith we expect everlasting healing of our spirit now, and of our body and soul on the last day. But can we expect physical healing now through the same faith that saves our spirit?

    We can ask for it, but it is not guaranteed.

    • That is the gist of this article. Faith as a gift from God that tells us whether or not healing is part of his eternal decree for us.

    Many say no. They think God limits healing to spiritual healing only, and not to physical healing. But James says the prayer of faith will heal the sick. So, if the same faith needed to heal the soul will heal the sick, why do we not see more physical healing of the body?

    Nobody is limiting God to spiritual healing only, that's a terrible misrepresentation.

    • I'm sorry if I misunderstood you earlier.

    I believe the reason centers on faith as a supernatural fruit of the Holy Spirit. And just as God provides faith for the evidence of salvation unseen, he also provides or withholds faith in areas not in his eternal plan for us. But if we pray for healing, and he provides faith, then faith tells us healing is part of his eternal plan for us. And we can expect healing just as we expect salvation.

    Faith is something God creates in us and not something we create (Hebrews 12:2).

    This goes back to our discussion on Is. 53.5 which has nothing to do with Physical Healing.

    • Isaiah says: “Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains—he hath carried them, And we—we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted.” (Isaiah 53:4)

    • “And he is pierced for our transgressions, Bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement of our peace is on him, And by his bruise there is healing to us.” (Isaiah 53:5)

    Sin has consequences outside of just spiritual death. Just because we repent doesn't mean the consequences magically disappear. There is no biblical support for that at all.

    • In many cases the consequences of sin disappear. Stop smoking and live longer. Repent from gluttony and derive better health. Be happy, it is like medicine to the bones.
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  • dct112685
    dct112685 Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:
    I think anyone would agree to saying if we sin in ways that create health problems and get sick, if we repent of the sins, God will naturally heal us. That is, up to the point our body can recover. So yes, the atonement provides healing from sin caused diseases through God’s forgiveness of sin and repentance.

    I don't agree with that. There are Christians with HIV because of past sins and it is not cured.

    • Thanks for your comments. Notice I said God naturally heals us "up to the point our body can recover".

    Our bodies already do that. That has nothing to do with the atonement.

    But does the atonement provide physical healing through the same faith it takes to save the spirit? By faith we expect everlasting healing of our spirit now, and of our body and soul on the last day. But can we expect physical healing now through the same faith that saves our spirit?

    We can ask for it, but it is not guaranteed.

    • That is the gist of this article. Faith as a gift from God that tells us whether or not healing is part of his eternal decree for us.
      >

    Then it has nothing to do with the atonement.

    Many say no. They think God limits healing to spiritual healing only, and not to physical healing. But James says the prayer of faith will heal the sick. So, if the same faith needed to heal the soul will heal the sick, why do we not see more physical healing of the body?

    Nobody is limiting God to spiritual healing only, that's a terrible misrepresentation.

    • I'm sorry if I misunderstood you earlier.
      >

    Thank you.

    I believe the reason centers on faith as a supernatural fruit of the Holy Spirit. And just as God provides faith for the evidence of salvation unseen, he also provides or withholds faith in areas not in his eternal plan for us. But if we pray for healing, and he provides faith, then faith tells us healing is part of his eternal plan for us. And we can expect healing just as we expect salvation.

    Faith is something God creates in us and not something we create (Hebrews 12:2).

    This goes back to our discussion on Is. 53.5 which has nothing to do with Physical Healing.

    • Isaiah says: “Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains—he hath carried them, And we—we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted.” (Isaiah 53:4)

    • “And he is pierced for our transgressions, Bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement of our peace is on him, And by his bruise there is healing to us.” (Isaiah 53:5)

    Sin has consequences outside of just spiritual death. Just because we repent doesn't mean the consequences magically disappear. There is no biblical support for that at all.

    • In many cases the consequences of sin disappear. Stop smoking and live longer. Repent from gluttony and derive better health. Be happy, it is like medicine to the bones.

    That has nothing to do with the repentence or the atonement. That has to do with living healthier. Non-believers get the same benefit.

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  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362
    edited March 2018

    "Our bodies already do that. That has nothing to do with the atonement."

    • It has everything to do with the atonement. Unless forgiven and granted repentance, the sickness remains.

    "Then it has nothing to do with the atonement."

    • Christians know Christ saved them because of the faith he gives them. They also know he healed them by the same faith he gives them. If you do not have faith for healing, it is because God does not plan to heal you. But you cannot measure others by yourself saying they are in error when they have faith.

    "That has nothing to do with the repentence or the atonement. That has to do with living healthier. Non-believers get the same benefit."

    • If you subscribe to the doctrine of common grace, it has everything to do with the atonement.

    • I do not subscribe to the doctrine of common grace but I know God cares for the whole world healing and providing for them for the sake of sustaining the church.

    • So either way, everything you see relates to the atonement.

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  • dct112685
    dct112685 Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:
    "Our bodies already do that. That has nothing to do with the atonement."

    • It has everything to do with the atonement. Unless forgiven and granted repentance, the sickness remains.

    "Then it has nothing to do with the atonement."

    • Christians know Christ saved them because of the faith he gives them. They also know he healed them by the same faith he gives them. If you do not have faith for healing, it is because God does not plan to heal you. But you cannot measure others by yourself saying they are in error when they have faith.

    "That has nothing to do with the repentence or the atonement. That has to do with living healthier. Non-believers get the same benefit."

    • If you subscribe to the doctrine of common grace, it has everything to do with the atonement.

    • I do not subscribe to the doctrine of common grace but I know God cares for the whole world healing and providing for them for the sake of sustaining the church.

    • So either way, everything you see relates to the atonement.

    This theology of yours has no biblical basis.

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  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362
    edited March 2018

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:
    "Our bodies already do that. That has nothing to do with the atonement."

    • It has everything to do with the atonement. Unless forgiven and granted repentance, the sickness remains.

    "Then it has nothing to do with the atonement."

    • Christians know Christ saved them because of the faith he gives them. They also know he healed them by the same faith he gives them. If you do not have faith for healing, it is because God does not plan to heal you. But you cannot measure others by yourself saying they are in error when they have faith.

    "That has nothing to do with the repentence or the atonement. That has to do with living healthier. Non-believers get the same benefit."

    • If you subscribe to the doctrine of common grace, it has everything to do with the atonement.

    • I do not subscribe to the doctrine of common grace but I know God cares for the whole world healing and providing for them for the sake of sustaining the church.

    • So either way, everything you see relates to the atonement.

    This theology of yours has no biblical basis.

    “Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.” (James 5:14–15)

    “Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” (James 5:16)

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  • dct112685
    dct112685 Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L You keep changing what you are talking about. Unless you can focus, I'm done.

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  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:
    @Dave_L You keep changing what you are talking about. Unless you can focus, I'm done.

    What would you like to focus on?

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  • GaoLu
    GaoLu Posts: 1,368
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

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  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    • He also includes salvation in the atonement.

    • We appropriate salvation provided for in the atonement through faith.

    • But we can also appropriate healing according to James' prayer of faith.

    • Since Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, we can know if healing is God's will for us depending on whether or not he gives us faith in the matter.

    I hope this helps.

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  • dct112685
    dct112685 Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

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  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

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  • dct112685
    dct112685 Posts: 1,114
    edited March 2018

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

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  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

    Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.

    Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24

    But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.

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  • dct112685
    dct112685 Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

    Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.

    Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24

    Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.

    But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.

    I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.

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  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

    Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.

    Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24

    Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.

    • So Jesus only healed people spiritually? The cripples were just faking it? The dead guys raised themselves?

    But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.

    I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.

    • I suggest you do an inline search of the words that pertain to physical healing in Isaiah to see how other OT writers used them. They all pertain to physical healing.

    • Again, thanks for keeping this interesting.

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  • dct112685
    dct112685 Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

    Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.

    Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24

    Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.

    • So Jesus only healed people spiritually? The cripples were just faking it? The dead guys raised themselves?

    Why do you insist on saying that I said things that I clearly did not say?

    But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.

    I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.

    • I suggest you do an inline search of the words that pertain to physical healing in Isaiah to see how other OT writers used them. They all pertain to physical healing.

    Context and sense Dave. Jesus' stripes healed us spiritually, not physically. There is no indicator that they heal us physically. 1 Peter 2:24 shows that Peter understood the passage to mean spiritual healing.

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  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

    Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.

    Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24

    Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.

    • So Jesus only healed people spiritually? The cripples were just faking it? The dead guys raised themselves?

    Why do you insist on saying that I said things that I clearly did not say?

    • If Jesus only healed spiritually, how do you explain the physical healings. Not only by him, but by the early church too?

    But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.

    I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.

    • Isaiah uses words to describe physical healing in the atonement that others also use to describe physical healing.
    • I suggest you do an inline search of the words that pertain to physical healing in Isaiah to see how other OT writers used them. They all pertain to physical healing.

    Context and sense Dave. Jesus' stripes healed us spiritually, not physically. There is no indicator that they heal us physically. 1 Peter 2:24 shows that Peter understood the passage to mean spiritual healing.

    • “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)

    • healed: = ① to restore someone to health after a physical malady, heal, cure lit. τινά someone Lk 5:17; 6:19; 9 (in vs. 2 τοὺς ἀσθενεῖς is omitted in v.l.), 11, 42; 14:4;

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 465). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • dct112685
    dct112685 Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

    Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.

    Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24

    Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.

    • So Jesus only healed people spiritually? The cripples were just faking it? The dead guys raised themselves?

    Why do you insist on saying that I said things that I clearly did not say?

    • If Jesus only healed spiritually, how do you explain the physical healings. Not only by him, but by the early church too?

    I never said Jesus didn't heal physically. I just said that has nothing to do with the atonement. Big difference.

    But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.

    I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.

    • Isaiah uses words to describe physical healing in the atonement that others also use to describe physical healing.

      • I suggest you do an inline search of the words that pertain to physical healing in Isaiah to see how other OT writers used them. They all pertain to physical healing.

      Context and sense Dave. Jesus' stripes healed us spiritually, not physically. There is no indicator that they heal us physically. 1 Peter 2:24 shows that Peter understood the passage to mean spiritual healing.

    • “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)

    • healed: = ① to restore someone to health after a physical malady, heal, cure lit. τινά someone Lk 5:17; 6:19; 9 (in vs. 2 τοὺς ἀσθενεῖς is omitted in v.l.), 11, 42; 14:4;

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 465). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    That is all great but shows you really do not have good language/exegetical skills. Cure is one of the definitions in that word. They are healed in the sense that their sins are forgiven and they no longer have spiritual death but eternal life.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

    Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.

    Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24

    Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.

    • So Jesus only healed people spiritually? The cripples were just faking it? The dead guys raised themselves?

    Why do you insist on saying that I said things that I clearly did not say?

    • If Jesus only healed spiritually, how do you explain the physical healings. Not only by him, but by the early church too?

    I never said Jesus didn't heal physically. I just said that has nothing to do with the atonement. Big difference.

    But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.

    I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.

    • Isaiah uses words to describe physical healing in the atonement that others also use to describe physical healing.

      • I suggest you do an inline search of the words that pertain to physical healing in Isaiah to see how other OT writers used them. They all pertain to physical healing.

      Context and sense Dave. Jesus' stripes healed us spiritually, not physically. There is no indicator that they heal us physically. 1 Peter 2:24 shows that Peter understood the passage to mean spiritual healing.

    • “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)

    • healed: = ① to restore someone to health after a physical malady, heal, cure lit. τινά someone Lk 5:17; 6:19; 9 (in vs. 2 τοὺς ἀσθενεῖς is omitted in v.l.), 11, 42; 14:4;

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 465). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    That is all great but shows you really do not have good language/exegetical skills. Cure is one of the definitions in that word. They are healed in the sense that their sins are forgiven and they no longer have spiritual death but eternal life.

    But, if Jesus ever healed apart from the atonement, he died in vain. He could just forgive the sins causing the sickness without justifying the person.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • dct112685
    dct112685 Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

    Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.

    Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24

    Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.

    • So Jesus only healed people spiritually? The cripples were just faking it? The dead guys raised themselves?

    Why do you insist on saying that I said things that I clearly did not say?

    • If Jesus only healed spiritually, how do you explain the physical healings. Not only by him, but by the early church too?

    I never said Jesus didn't heal physically. I just said that has nothing to do with the atonement. Big difference.

    But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.

    I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.

    • Isaiah uses words to describe physical healing in the atonement that others also use to describe physical healing.

      • I suggest you do an inline search of the words that pertain to physical healing in Isaiah to see how other OT writers used them. They all pertain to physical healing.

      Context and sense Dave. Jesus' stripes healed us spiritually, not physically. There is no indicator that they heal us physically. 1 Peter 2:24 shows that Peter understood the passage to mean spiritual healing.

    • “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)

    • healed: = ① to restore someone to health after a physical malady, heal, cure lit. τινά someone Lk 5:17; 6:19; 9 (in vs. 2 τοὺς ἀσθενεῖς is omitted in v.l.), 11, 42; 14:4;

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 465). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    That is all great but shows you really do not have good language/exegetical skills. Cure is one of the definitions in that word. They are healed in the sense that their sins are forgiven and they no longer have spiritual death but eternal life.

    But, if Jesus ever healed apart from the atonement, he died in vain. He could just forgive the sins causing the sickness without justifying the person.

    How does the physical healing of someone who is not saved cause Jesus to die in vain? Why do you tie those together?

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

    Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.

    Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24

    Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.

    • So Jesus only healed people spiritually? The cripples were just faking it? The dead guys raised themselves?

    Why do you insist on saying that I said things that I clearly did not say?

    • If Jesus only healed spiritually, how do you explain the physical healings. Not only by him, but by the early church too?

    I never said Jesus didn't heal physically. I just said that has nothing to do with the atonement. Big difference.

    But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.

    I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.

    • Isaiah uses words to describe physical healing in the atonement that others also use to describe physical healing.

      • I suggest you do an inline search of the words that pertain to physical healing in Isaiah to see how other OT writers used them. They all pertain to physical healing.

      Context and sense Dave. Jesus' stripes healed us spiritually, not physically. There is no indicator that they heal us physically. 1 Peter 2:24 shows that Peter understood the passage to mean spiritual healing.

    • “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)

    • healed: = ① to restore someone to health after a physical malady, heal, cure lit. τινά someone Lk 5:17; 6:19; 9 (in vs. 2 τοὺς ἀσθενεῖς is omitted in v.l.), 11, 42; 14:4;

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 465). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    That is all great but shows you really do not have good language/exegetical skills. Cure is one of the definitions in that word. They are healed in the sense that their sins are forgiven and they no longer have spiritual death but eternal life.

    But, if Jesus ever healed apart from the atonement, he died in vain. He could just forgive the sins causing the sickness without justifying the person.

    How does the physical healing of someone who is not saved cause Jesus to die in vain? Why do you tie those together?

    I explained this earlier in God's providence for the Church. Just as he healed wicked Israel for the sake of the few elect, he provides good for the wicked world for the sake of the elect. Some think of this in "Common Grace" views. But I see it more as the long suffering wrath of God held in bay until the last of the elect come in.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • dct112685
    dct112685 Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

    Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.

    Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24

    Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.

    • So Jesus only healed people spiritually? The cripples were just faking it? The dead guys raised themselves?

    Why do you insist on saying that I said things that I clearly did not say?

    • If Jesus only healed spiritually, how do you explain the physical healings. Not only by him, but by the early church too?

    I never said Jesus didn't heal physically. I just said that has nothing to do with the atonement. Big difference.

    But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.

    I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.

    • Isaiah uses words to describe physical healing in the atonement that others also use to describe physical healing.

      • I suggest you do an inline search of the words that pertain to physical healing in Isaiah to see how other OT writers used them. They all pertain to physical healing.

      Context and sense Dave. Jesus' stripes healed us spiritually, not physically. There is no indicator that they heal us physically. 1 Peter 2:24 shows that Peter understood the passage to mean spiritual healing.

    • “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)

    • healed: = ① to restore someone to health after a physical malady, heal, cure lit. τινά someone Lk 5:17; 6:19; 9 (in vs. 2 τοὺς ἀσθενεῖς is omitted in v.l.), 11, 42; 14:4;

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 465). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    That is all great but shows you really do not have good language/exegetical skills. Cure is one of the definitions in that word. They are healed in the sense that their sins are forgiven and they no longer have spiritual death but eternal life.

    But, if Jesus ever healed apart from the atonement, he died in vain. He could just forgive the sins causing the sickness without justifying the person.

    How does the physical healing of someone who is not saved cause Jesus to die in vain? Why do you tie those together?

    I explained this earlier in God's providence for the Church. Just as he healed wicked Israel for the sake of the few elect, he provides good for the wicked world for the sake of the elect. Some think of this in "Common Grace" views. But I see it more as the long suffering wrath of God held in bay until the last of the elect come in.

    But what does that have to do with the atonement providing healing?

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

    Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.

    Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24

    Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.

    • So Jesus only healed people spiritually? The cripples were just faking it? The dead guys raised themselves?

    Why do you insist on saying that I said things that I clearly did not say?

    • If Jesus only healed spiritually, how do you explain the physical healings. Not only by him, but by the early church too?

    I never said Jesus didn't heal physically. I just said that has nothing to do with the atonement. Big difference.

    But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.

    I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.

    • Isaiah uses words to describe physical healing in the atonement that others also use to describe physical healing.

      • I suggest you do an inline search of the words that pertain to physical healing in Isaiah to see how other OT writers used them. They all pertain to physical healing.

      Context and sense Dave. Jesus' stripes healed us spiritually, not physically. There is no indicator that they heal us physically. 1 Peter 2:24 shows that Peter understood the passage to mean spiritual healing.

    • “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)

    • healed: = ① to restore someone to health after a physical malady, heal, cure lit. τινά someone Lk 5:17; 6:19; 9 (in vs. 2 τοὺς ἀσθενεῖς is omitted in v.l.), 11, 42; 14:4;

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 465). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    That is all great but shows you really do not have good language/exegetical skills. Cure is one of the definitions in that word. They are healed in the sense that their sins are forgiven and they no longer have spiritual death but eternal life.

    But, if Jesus ever healed apart from the atonement, he died in vain. He could just forgive the sins causing the sickness without justifying the person.

    How does the physical healing of someone who is not saved cause Jesus to die in vain? Why do you tie those together?

    I explained this earlier in God's providence for the Church. Just as he healed wicked Israel for the sake of the few elect, he provides good for the wicked world for the sake of the elect. Some think of this in "Common Grace" views. But I see it more as the long suffering wrath of God held in bay until the last of the elect come in.

    But what does that have to do with the atonement providing healing?

    Isaiah says it does. And personally, I would not want to tamper with it and deny the benefits Jesus suffered so dearly for to any in pain and suffering for whom he died. Just sayin'

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • dct112685
    dct112685 Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

    Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.

    Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24

    Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.

    • So Jesus only healed people spiritually? The cripples were just faking it? The dead guys raised themselves?

    Why do you insist on saying that I said things that I clearly did not say?

    • If Jesus only healed spiritually, how do you explain the physical healings. Not only by him, but by the early church too?

    I never said Jesus didn't heal physically. I just said that has nothing to do with the atonement. Big difference.

    But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.

    I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.

    • Isaiah uses words to describe physical healing in the atonement that others also use to describe physical healing.

      • I suggest you do an inline search of the words that pertain to physical healing in Isaiah to see how other OT writers used them. They all pertain to physical healing.

      Context and sense Dave. Jesus' stripes healed us spiritually, not physically. There is no indicator that they heal us physically. 1 Peter 2:24 shows that Peter understood the passage to mean spiritual healing.

    • “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)

    • healed: = ① to restore someone to health after a physical malady, heal, cure lit. τινά someone Lk 5:17; 6:19; 9 (in vs. 2 τοὺς ἀσθενεῖς is omitted in v.l.), 11, 42; 14:4;

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 465). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    That is all great but shows you really do not have good language/exegetical skills. Cure is one of the definitions in that word. They are healed in the sense that their sins are forgiven and they no longer have spiritual death but eternal life.

    But, if Jesus ever healed apart from the atonement, he died in vain. He could just forgive the sins causing the sickness without justifying the person.

    How does the physical healing of someone who is not saved cause Jesus to die in vain? Why do you tie those together?

    I explained this earlier in God's providence for the Church. Just as he healed wicked Israel for the sake of the few elect, he provides good for the wicked world for the sake of the elect. Some think of this in "Common Grace" views. But I see it more as the long suffering wrath of God held in bay until the last of the elect come in.

    But what does that have to do with the atonement providing healing?

    Isaiah says it does. And personally, I would not want to tamper with it and deny the benefits Jesus suffered so dearly for to any in pain and suffering for whom he died. Just sayin'

    But Isaiah doesn't say that at all. Only when you isolate that verse outside of its broader context do you get that. That's not good exegetical work.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

    Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.

    Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24

    Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.

    • So Jesus only healed people spiritually? The cripples were just faking it? The dead guys raised themselves?

    Why do you insist on saying that I said things that I clearly did not say?

    • If Jesus only healed spiritually, how do you explain the physical healings. Not only by him, but by the early church too?

    I never said Jesus didn't heal physically. I just said that has nothing to do with the atonement. Big difference.

    But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.

    I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.

    • Isaiah uses words to describe physical healing in the atonement that others also use to describe physical healing.

      • I suggest you do an inline search of the words that pertain to physical healing in Isaiah to see how other OT writers used them. They all pertain to physical healing.

      Context and sense Dave. Jesus' stripes healed us spiritually, not physically. There is no indicator that they heal us physically. 1 Peter 2:24 shows that Peter understood the passage to mean spiritual healing.

    • “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)

    • healed: = ① to restore someone to health after a physical malady, heal, cure lit. τινά someone Lk 5:17; 6:19; 9 (in vs. 2 τοὺς ἀσθενεῖς is omitted in v.l.), 11, 42; 14:4;

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 465). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    That is all great but shows you really do not have good language/exegetical skills. Cure is one of the definitions in that word. They are healed in the sense that their sins are forgiven and they no longer have spiritual death but eternal life.

    But, if Jesus ever healed apart from the atonement, he died in vain. He could just forgive the sins causing the sickness without justifying the person.

    How does the physical healing of someone who is not saved cause Jesus to die in vain? Why do you tie those together?

    I explained this earlier in God's providence for the Church. Just as he healed wicked Israel for the sake of the few elect, he provides good for the wicked world for the sake of the elect. Some think of this in "Common Grace" views. But I see it more as the long suffering wrath of God held in bay until the last of the elect come in.

    But what does that have to do with the atonement providing healing?

    Isaiah says it does. And personally, I would not want to tamper with it and deny the benefits Jesus suffered so dearly for to any in pain and suffering for whom he died. Just sayin'

    But Isaiah doesn't say that at all. Only when you isolate that verse outside of its broader context do you get that. That's not good exegetical work.

    You need to prove that Isaiah didn't mean what he said.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • dct112685
    dct112685 Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

    Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.

    Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24

    Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.

    • So Jesus only healed people spiritually? The cripples were just faking it? The dead guys raised themselves?

    Why do you insist on saying that I said things that I clearly did not say?

    • If Jesus only healed spiritually, how do you explain the physical healings. Not only by him, but by the early church too?

    I never said Jesus didn't heal physically. I just said that has nothing to do with the atonement. Big difference.

    But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.

    I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.

    • Isaiah uses words to describe physical healing in the atonement that others also use to describe physical healing.

      • I suggest you do an inline search of the words that pertain to physical healing in Isaiah to see how other OT writers used them. They all pertain to physical healing.

      Context and sense Dave. Jesus' stripes healed us spiritually, not physically. There is no indicator that they heal us physically. 1 Peter 2:24 shows that Peter understood the passage to mean spiritual healing.

    • “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)

    • healed: = ① to restore someone to health after a physical malady, heal, cure lit. τινά someone Lk 5:17; 6:19; 9 (in vs. 2 τοὺς ἀσθενεῖς is omitted in v.l.), 11, 42; 14:4;

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 465). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    That is all great but shows you really do not have good language/exegetical skills. Cure is one of the definitions in that word. They are healed in the sense that their sins are forgiven and they no longer have spiritual death but eternal life.

    But, if Jesus ever healed apart from the atonement, he died in vain. He could just forgive the sins causing the sickness without justifying the person.

    How does the physical healing of someone who is not saved cause Jesus to die in vain? Why do you tie those together?

    I explained this earlier in God's providence for the Church. Just as he healed wicked Israel for the sake of the few elect, he provides good for the wicked world for the sake of the elect. Some think of this in "Common Grace" views. But I see it more as the long suffering wrath of God held in bay until the last of the elect come in.

    But what does that have to do with the atonement providing healing?

    Isaiah says it does. And personally, I would not want to tamper with it and deny the benefits Jesus suffered so dearly for to any in pain and suffering for whom he died. Just sayin'

    But Isaiah doesn't say that at all. Only when you isolate that verse outside of its broader context do you get that. That's not good exegetical work.

    You need to prove that Isaiah didn't mean what he said

    No I don't. I believe he meant what he said, but he didn't say what you say he said. Peter tells us what Isaiah said and it was spiritual healing.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

    Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.

    Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24

    Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.

    • So Jesus only healed people spiritually? The cripples were just faking it? The dead guys raised themselves?

    Why do you insist on saying that I said things that I clearly did not say?

    • If Jesus only healed spiritually, how do you explain the physical healings. Not only by him, but by the early church too?

    I never said Jesus didn't heal physically. I just said that has nothing to do with the atonement. Big difference.

    But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.

    I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.

    • Isaiah uses words to describe physical healing in the atonement that others also use to describe physical healing.

      • I suggest you do an inline search of the words that pertain to physical healing in Isaiah to see how other OT writers used them. They all pertain to physical healing.

      Context and sense Dave. Jesus' stripes healed us spiritually, not physically. There is no indicator that they heal us physically. 1 Peter 2:24 shows that Peter understood the passage to mean spiritual healing.

    • “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)

    • healed: = ① to restore someone to health after a physical malady, heal, cure lit. τινά someone Lk 5:17; 6:19; 9 (in vs. 2 τοὺς ἀσθενεῖς is omitted in v.l.), 11, 42; 14:4;

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 465). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    That is all great but shows you really do not have good language/exegetical skills. Cure is one of the definitions in that word. They are healed in the sense that their sins are forgiven and they no longer have spiritual death but eternal life.

    But, if Jesus ever healed apart from the atonement, he died in vain. He could just forgive the sins causing the sickness without justifying the person.

    How does the physical healing of someone who is not saved cause Jesus to die in vain? Why do you tie those together?

    I explained this earlier in God's providence for the Church. Just as he healed wicked Israel for the sake of the few elect, he provides good for the wicked world for the sake of the elect. Some think of this in "Common Grace" views. But I see it more as the long suffering wrath of God held in bay until the last of the elect come in.

    But what does that have to do with the atonement providing healing?

    Isaiah says it does. And personally, I would not want to tamper with it and deny the benefits Jesus suffered so dearly for to any in pain and suffering for whom he died. Just sayin'

    But Isaiah doesn't say that at all. Only when you isolate that verse outside of its broader context do you get that. That's not good exegetical work.

    You need to prove that Isaiah didn't mean what he said

    No I don't. I believe he meant what he said, but he didn't say what you say he said. Peter tells us what Isaiah said and it was spiritual healing.

    Peter and Isaiah use words meaning physical sickness and physical healing. None of them mean spiritual healing, that is already covered.

    Does James mean spiritual healing for those already saved when he tells them to pray for healing?

    If you could present one solid argument against taking Isaiah or Peter literally, I'd like to hear it. Please make an effort to do this.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • dct112685
    dct112685 Posts: 1,114

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

    Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.

    Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24

    Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.

    • So Jesus only healed people spiritually? The cripples were just faking it? The dead guys raised themselves?

    Why do you insist on saying that I said things that I clearly did not say?

    • If Jesus only healed spiritually, how do you explain the physical healings. Not only by him, but by the early church too?

    I never said Jesus didn't heal physically. I just said that has nothing to do with the atonement. Big difference.

    But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.

    I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.

    • Isaiah uses words to describe physical healing in the atonement that others also use to describe physical healing.

      • I suggest you do an inline search of the words that pertain to physical healing in Isaiah to see how other OT writers used them. They all pertain to physical healing.

      Context and sense Dave. Jesus' stripes healed us spiritually, not physically. There is no indicator that they heal us physically. 1 Peter 2:24 shows that Peter understood the passage to mean spiritual healing.

    • “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)

    • healed: = ① to restore someone to health after a physical malady, heal, cure lit. τινά someone Lk 5:17; 6:19; 9 (in vs. 2 τοὺς ἀσθενεῖς is omitted in v.l.), 11, 42; 14:4;

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 465). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    That is all great but shows you really do not have good language/exegetical skills. Cure is one of the definitions in that word. They are healed in the sense that their sins are forgiven and they no longer have spiritual death but eternal life.

    But, if Jesus ever healed apart from the atonement, he died in vain. He could just forgive the sins causing the sickness without justifying the person.

    How does the physical healing of someone who is not saved cause Jesus to die in vain? Why do you tie those together?

    I explained this earlier in God's providence for the Church. Just as he healed wicked Israel for the sake of the few elect, he provides good for the wicked world for the sake of the elect. Some think of this in "Common Grace" views. But I see it more as the long suffering wrath of God held in bay until the last of the elect come in.

    But what does that have to do with the atonement providing healing?

    Isaiah says it does. And personally, I would not want to tamper with it and deny the benefits Jesus suffered so dearly for to any in pain and suffering for whom he died. Just sayin'

    But Isaiah doesn't say that at all. Only when you isolate that verse outside of its broader context do you get that. That's not good exegetical work.

    You need to prove that Isaiah didn't mean what he said

    No I don't. I believe he meant what he said, but he didn't say what you say he said. Peter tells us what Isaiah said and it was spiritual healing.

    Peter and Isaiah use words meaning physical sickness and physical healing. None of them mean spiritual healing, that is already covered.

    Does James mean spiritual healing for those already saved when he tells them to pray for healing?

    If you could present one solid argument against taking Isaiah or Peter literally, I'd like to hear it. Please make an effort to do this.

    Dave that is a poor argument. There is no word that means spiritual healing. That's why context matters. You can't just look at an individual word, you have to look at context. He is using an analogy to physical healing to describe the spiritual healing that the atonement offered.

    If it really meant physical healing then every Christian would never have a physical ailement otherwise the atonement was wasted and a promise not kept. Fortunately, that isn't what the passages mean.

    · Share on TwitterShare on Facebook
  • Dave_L
    Dave_L Posts: 2,362

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @davidtaylorjr said:

    @Dave_L said:

    @GaoLu said:
    1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
    2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
    3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
    4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
    5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.

    Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
    Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.

    Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.

    Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

    • Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.

    How?

    How does he not???

    No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?

    Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.

    Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24

    Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.

    • So Jesus only healed people spiritually? The cripples were just faking it? The dead guys raised themselves?

    Why do you insist on saying that I said things that I clearly did not say?

    • If Jesus only healed spiritually, how do you explain the physical healings. Not only by him, but by the early church too?

    I never said Jesus didn't heal physically. I just said that has nothing to do with the atonement. Big difference.

    But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.

    I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.

    • Isaiah uses words to describe physical healing in the atonement that others also use to describe physical healing.

      • I suggest you do an inline search of the words that pertain to physical healing in Isaiah to see how other OT writers used them. They all pertain to physical healing.

      Context and sense Dave. Jesus' stripes healed us spiritually, not physically. There is no indicator that they heal us physically. 1 Peter 2:24 shows that Peter understood the passage to mean spiritual healing.

    • “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)

    • healed: = ① to restore someone to health after a physical malady, heal, cure lit. τινά someone Lk 5:17; 6:19; 9 (in vs. 2 τοὺς ἀσθενεῖς is omitted in v.l.), 11, 42; 14:4;

    Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 465). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

    That is all great but shows you really do not have good language/exegetical skills. Cure is one of the definitions in that word. They are healed in the sense that their sins are forgiven and they no longer have spiritual death but eternal life.

    But, if Jesus ever healed apart from the atonement, he died in vain. He could just forgive the sins causing the sickness without justifying the person.

    How does the physical healing of someone who is not saved cause Jesus to die in vain? Why do you tie those together?

    I explained this earlier in God's providence for the Church. Just as he healed wicked Israel for the sake of the few elect, he provides good for the wicked world for the sake of the elect. Some think of this in "Common Grace" views. But I see it more as the long suffering wrath of God held in bay until the last of the elect come in.

    But what does that have to do with the atonement providing healing?

    Isaiah says it does. And personally, I would not want to tamper with it and deny the benefits Jesus suffered so dearly for to any in pain and suffering for whom he died. Just sayin'

    But Isaiah doesn't say that at all. Only when you isolate that verse outside of its broader context do you get that. That's not good exegetical work.

    You need to prove that Isaiah didn't mean what he said

    No I don't. I believe he meant what he said, but he didn't say what you say he said. Peter tells us what Isaiah said and it was spiritual healing.

    Peter and Isaiah use words meaning physical sickness and physical healing. None of them mean spiritual healing, that is already covered.

    Does James mean spiritual healing for those already saved when he tells them to pray for healing?

    If you could present one solid argument against taking Isaiah or Peter literally, I'd like to hear it. Please make an effort to do this.

    Dave that is a poor argument. There is no word that means spiritual healing. That's why context matters. You can't just look at an individual word, you have to look at context. He is using an analogy to physical healing to describe the spiritual healing that the atonement offered.

    If it really meant physical healing then every Christian would never have a physical ailement otherwise the atonement was wasted and a promise not kept. Fortunately, that isn't what the passages mean.

    This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.

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