Does Christ’s Atonement provide for Physical Healing Today?
Comments
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Dave,
You raised two interesting topics. Many more benefits could be had. If you would consider the following suggestions below, it would increase the likelihood others could participate in the discussion:- I think it would be helpful for you and David to provide a working definition of the word and in turn, the doctrine of "atonement." It's broad and "deep". e.g. "How can God save some people and destroy others when all have rebelled and sinned against Him and His principles?" Understanding of the atonement is the justice of God.
- Types of atonement?
- The role of blood in the atonement?
- When is Atonement completed on the cross or at Christ's return/resurrection?
- Is there a process to atonement, if so, what is it?
- What is the "Day of Atonement" in the OT and what is its importance?
- What instrument of atonement used in one OT incident?
How it's defined in the OT and NT? Cite some examples from each.
What other words are used for "atonement" in view of the Greek and Hebrew Languages?
Biblical passages used, at least, cite what that chapter is talking about (content) and later inferences that could be drawn from it.
You may have bitten off more than you can chew by combining without clarifying the meaning and the direction you are headed.
- And to do so, with understanding, you must first show the linkage between the two-- "Atonement" and "Healing."
- Take one of these topics at a time: Atonement and the healing.
- The latter alone, have several areas: There are Physical, Mental, Spiritual, Emotional, and Sexual Healing. It may prove to be more manageable than lumped together.
If you don't have the time, skill or materials, give a signal of the desire of inquiry to others. When all else fails, ask a question. For this cause, CD exists. CM
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.
Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
- Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.
How?
How does he not???
No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?
Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.
Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24
Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.
- So Jesus only healed people spiritually? The cripples were just faking it? The dead guys raised themselves?
Why do you insist on saying that I said things that I clearly did not say?
- If Jesus only healed spiritually, how do you explain the physical healings. Not only by him, but by the early church too?
I never said Jesus didn't heal physically. I just said that has nothing to do with the atonement. Big difference.
But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.
I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.
Isaiah uses words to describe physical healing in the atonement that others also use to describe physical healing.
- I suggest you do an inline search of the words that pertain to physical healing in Isaiah to see how other OT writers used them. They all pertain to physical healing.
Context and sense Dave. Jesus' stripes healed us spiritually, not physically. There is no indicator that they heal us physically. 1 Peter 2:24 shows that Peter understood the passage to mean spiritual healing.
“Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)
healed: = ① to restore someone to health after a physical malady, heal, cure lit. τινά someone Lk 5:17; 6:19; 9 (in vs. 2 τοὺς ἀσθενεῖς is omitted in v.l.), 11, 42; 14:4;
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 465). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
That is all great but shows you really do not have good language/exegetical skills. Cure is one of the definitions in that word. They are healed in the sense that their sins are forgiven and they no longer have spiritual death but eternal life.
But, if Jesus ever healed apart from the atonement, he died in vain. He could just forgive the sins causing the sickness without justifying the person.
How does the physical healing of someone who is not saved cause Jesus to die in vain? Why do you tie those together?
I explained this earlier in God's providence for the Church. Just as he healed wicked Israel for the sake of the few elect, he provides good for the wicked world for the sake of the elect. Some think of this in "Common Grace" views. But I see it more as the long suffering wrath of God held in bay until the last of the elect come in.
But what does that have to do with the atonement providing healing?
Isaiah says it does. And personally, I would not want to tamper with it and deny the benefits Jesus suffered so dearly for to any in pain and suffering for whom he died. Just sayin'
But Isaiah doesn't say that at all. Only when you isolate that verse outside of its broader context do you get that. That's not good exegetical work.
You need to prove that Isaiah didn't mean what he said
No I don't. I believe he meant what he said, but he didn't say what you say he said. Peter tells us what Isaiah said and it was spiritual healing.
Peter and Isaiah use words meaning physical sickness and physical healing. None of them mean spiritual healing, that is already covered.
Does James mean spiritual healing for those already saved when he tells them to pray for healing?
If you could present one solid argument against taking Isaiah or Peter literally, I'd like to hear it. Please make an effort to do this.
Dave that is a poor argument. There is no word that means spiritual healing. That's why context matters. You can't just look at an individual word, you have to look at context. He is using an analogy to physical healing to describe the spiritual healing that the atonement offered.
If it really meant physical healing then every Christian would never have a physical ailement otherwise the atonement was wasted and a promise not kept. Fortunately, that isn't what the passages mean.
This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.
Oh brother Dave. I can't help it if you do not know how to properly exegete a passage.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
1. Our bodies sometimes get sick. Christians and non-Christians
2. Our bodies naturally heal. Christians and non-Christians.
3. God sometimes intervenes in the natural process and works super-naturally. Christians and non-Christians.
4. Christians sometimes have some natural advantage, being more inclined to healthier living and less inclined to destructive sinful habits than non-Christians.
5. Redemption of our bodies will someday be complete. That may seem super-natural from our perspective now.Dave's Theology 101 Point #4 (is anyone keeping track?):
Atonement supernaturally heals all saved people now.Note: Please correct any errors in documenting "Dave's Theology Points." Better yet, Dave, why don't you make a thread and list your points as they come up. That would surely be more accurate than my documentation efforts.
Thanks GaoLu for contributing. I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
- Isaiah includes divine healing in the atonement.
How?
How does he not???
No, my question is how is the atonement related to physical healing when we see physical healing for both Christians and Non-Christians and healing before the atonement was even made? And how does Isaiah provide for this? Where are you getting this from?
Thanks for helping to open this up. All healing is from God, including the healing of the most wicked. But he uses those he heals naturally to sustain the church. So the Atonement affects them indirectly. But Matthew and Peter say Christ's healing of the demonized and others was fulfilling or related to Isaiah.
Matthew 8:16-17 with Isaiah 53:4 and 1 Peter 2:24
Those are all examples of spiritual, not physical, healing.
- So Jesus only healed people spiritually? The cripples were just faking it? The dead guys raised themselves?
Why do you insist on saying that I said things that I clearly did not say?
- If Jesus only healed spiritually, how do you explain the physical healings. Not only by him, but by the early church too?
I never said Jesus didn't heal physically. I just said that has nothing to do with the atonement. Big difference.
But many Christians turn to Christ for healing when the doctors can do no more. And even doctors many times verify a miracle occurred when they could do no more.
I have never disputed God can do miracles. However, I don't think that has anything to do with the atonement directly. Nor do I think by His stripes we are healed has anything to do with physical healing.
Isaiah uses words to describe physical healing in the atonement that others also use to describe physical healing.
- I suggest you do an inline search of the words that pertain to physical healing in Isaiah to see how other OT writers used them. They all pertain to physical healing.
Context and sense Dave. Jesus' stripes healed us spiritually, not physically. There is no indicator that they heal us physically. 1 Peter 2:24 shows that Peter understood the passage to mean spiritual healing.
“Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)
healed: = ① to restore someone to health after a physical malady, heal, cure lit. τινά someone Lk 5:17; 6:19; 9 (in vs. 2 τοὺς ἀσθενεῖς is omitted in v.l.), 11, 42; 14:4;
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 465). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
That is all great but shows you really do not have good language/exegetical skills. Cure is one of the definitions in that word. They are healed in the sense that their sins are forgiven and they no longer have spiritual death but eternal life.
But, if Jesus ever healed apart from the atonement, he died in vain. He could just forgive the sins causing the sickness without justifying the person.
How does the physical healing of someone who is not saved cause Jesus to die in vain? Why do you tie those together?
I explained this earlier in God's providence for the Church. Just as he healed wicked Israel for the sake of the few elect, he provides good for the wicked world for the sake of the elect. Some think of this in "Common Grace" views. But I see it more as the long suffering wrath of God held in bay until the last of the elect come in.
But what does that have to do with the atonement providing healing?
Isaiah says it does. And personally, I would not want to tamper with it and deny the benefits Jesus suffered so dearly for to any in pain and suffering for whom he died. Just sayin'
But Isaiah doesn't say that at all. Only when you isolate that verse outside of its broader context do you get that. That's not good exegetical work.
You need to prove that Isaiah didn't mean what he said
No I don't. I believe he meant what he said, but he didn't say what you say he said. Peter tells us what Isaiah said and it was spiritual healing.
Peter and Isaiah use words meaning physical sickness and physical healing. None of them mean spiritual healing, that is already covered.
Does James mean spiritual healing for those already saved when he tells them to pray for healing?
If you could present one solid argument against taking Isaiah or Peter literally, I'd like to hear it. Please make an effort to do this.
Dave that is a poor argument. There is no word that means spiritual healing. That's why context matters. You can't just look at an individual word, you have to look at context. He is using an analogy to physical healing to describe the spiritual healing that the atonement offered.
If it really meant physical healing then every Christian would never have a physical ailement otherwise the atonement was wasted and a promise not kept. Fortunately, that isn't what the passages mean.
This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.
Oh brother Dave. I can't help it if you do not know how to properly exegete a passage.
I asked if you would provide a solid rebuttal to the literal interpretation of Isaiah.
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@C_M_ said:
Dave,
You raised two interesting topics. Many more benefits could be had. If you would consider the following suggestions below, it would increase the likelihood others could participate in the discussion:- I think it would be helpful for you and David to provide a working definition of the word and in turn, the doctrine of "atonement." It's broad and "deep". e.g. "How can God save some people and destroy others when all have rebelled and sinned against Him and His principles?" Understanding of the atonement is the justice of God.
- Types of atonement?
- The role of blood in the atonement?
- When is Atonement completed on the cross or at Christ's return/resurrection?
- Is there a process to atonement, if so, what is it?
- What is the "Day of Atonement" in the OT and what is its importance?
- What instrument of atonement used in one OT incident?
How it's defined in the OT and NT? Cite some examples from each.
What other words are used for "atonement" in view of the Greek and Hebrew Languages?
Biblical passages used, at least, cite what that chapter is talking about (content) and later inferences that could be drawn from it.
You may have bitten off more than you can chew by combining without clarifying the meaning and the direction you are headed.
- And to do so, with understanding, you must first show the linkage between the two-- "Atonement" and "Healing."
- Take one of these topics at a time: Atonement and the healing.
- The latter alone, have several areas: There are Physical, Mental, Spiritual, Emotional, and Sexual Healing. It may prove to be more manageable than lumped together.
If you don't have the time, skill or materials, give a signal of the desire of inquiry to others. When all else fails, ask a question. For this cause, CD exists. CM
Thanks C., I hope you will join in. What we are speaking of is a literal reading of Isaiah 53 VS a metaphorical reading. It's that simple.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.
Oh brother Dave. I can't help it if you do not know how to properly exegete a passage.
Help him. Better yet, show him. We can all benefit from your expertise. Humbly, suggested. CM
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@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.
Oh brother Dave. I can't help it if you do not know how to properly exegete a passage.
Help him. Better yet, show him. We can all benefit from your expertise. Humbly, suggested. CM
I've tried, but he is unteachable.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.
Oh brother Dave. I can't help it if you do not know how to properly exegete a passage.
Help him. Better yet, show him. We can all benefit from your expertise. Humbly, suggested. CM
I've tried, but he is unteachable.
I do not recall reading anything but your opinion. How would you teach your position to your church? Maybe just an outline would help.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.
Oh brother Dave. I can't help it if you do not know how to properly exegete a passage.
Help him. Better yet, show him. We can all benefit from your expertise. Humbly, suggested. CM
I've tried, but he is unteachable.
I do not recall reading anything but your opinion. How would you teach your position to your church? Maybe just an outline would help.
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.
Oh brother Dave. I can't help it if you do not know how to properly exegete a passage.
Help him. Better yet, show him. We can all benefit from your expertise. Humbly, suggested. CM
I've tried, but he is unteachable.
I do not recall reading anything but your opinion. How would you teach your position to your church? Maybe just an outline would help.
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
I appreciate your efforts. But sickness is the result of sin. And if Christ atoned for sin, he also provided for physical healing in the atonement by nullifying sickness' cause.
James says to pray for the sick so they can be healed. If your church does not do this, I better understand your position. But many churches pray for healing just as they do salvation, and receive it.
-
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.
Oh brother Dave. I can't help it if you do not know how to properly exegete a passage.
Help him. Better yet, show him. We can all benefit from your expertise. Humbly, suggested. CM
I've tried, but he is unteachable.
I do not recall reading anything but your opinion. How would you teach your position to your church? Maybe just an outline would help.
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
I appreciate your efforts. But sickness is the result of sin. And if Christ atoned for sin, he also provided for physical healing in the atonement by nullifying sickness' cause.
James says to pray for the sick so they can be healed. If your church does not do this, I better understand your position. But many churches pray for healing just as they do salvation, and receive it.
Then why do Christians still get sick Dave? And I have never said we do not pray for the sick so I don't know why you keep saying that.
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
David,
Some people learn in parts (analytically) and some do by seeing the whole (globally).
Maybe, what you attempted to show Dave in the past was not in the form he could get (grasp) it, even if he didn't agree with your conclusion.Could it be that the two of you, don't know or aware, of one another's worldview or presuppositions? One is never so smart, he can't learn anymore when it comes to God from His Word. Neither should one be unwilling, without cause, to help a brother. We are all disciples ("students", "learners" of God's Word).
All of CD is not and should not be like the "News & Current Events" section--passionately expressing personal, political views and opinions. CM
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.
Oh brother Dave. I can't help it if you do not know how to properly exegete a passage.
Help him. Better yet, show him. We can all benefit from your expertise. Humbly, suggested. CM
I've tried, but he is unteachable.
I do not recall reading anything but your opinion. How would you teach your position to your church? Maybe just an outline would help.
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
I appreciate your efforts. But sickness is the result of sin. And if Christ atoned for sin, he also provided for physical healing in the atonement by nullifying sickness' cause.
James says to pray for the sick so they can be healed. If your church does not do this, I better understand your position. But many churches pray for healing just as they do salvation, and receive it.
Then why do Christians still get sick Dave? And I have never said we do not pray for the sick so I don't know why you keep saying that.
Sin results in sickness and death. And we do not fully recover from sin's effects until we become as perfect as Jesus in the resurrection. But why repent when you stumble as a Christian? If it isn't necessary? Why pray for healing if our imperfect bodies fail?
When I pray for healing I know God always answers Yes. Because I know if he does not grant the healing now, he has granted it in the resurrection. So I can pray in faith for healing expecting an answer sooner or later.
But if physical healing is not part of the atonement, there won't be a resurrection.
-
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.
Oh brother Dave. I can't help it if you do not know how to properly exegete a passage.
Help him. Better yet, show him. We can all benefit from your expertise. Humbly, suggested. CM
I've tried, but he is unteachable.
I do not recall reading anything but your opinion. How would you teach your position to your church? Maybe just an outline would help.
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
I appreciate your efforts. But sickness is the result of sin. And if Christ atoned for sin, he also provided for physical healing in the atonement by nullifying sickness' cause.
James says to pray for the sick so they can be healed. If your church does not do this, I better understand your position. But many churches pray for healing just as they do salvation, and receive it.
Then why do Christians still get sick Dave? And I have never said we do not pray for the sick so I don't know why you keep saying that.
Sin results in sickness and death. And we do not fully recover from sin's effects until we become as perfect as Jesus in the resurrection. But why repent when you stumble as a Christian? If it isn't necessary? Why pray for healing if our imperfect bodies fail?
When I pray for healing I know God always answers Yes. Because I know if he does not grant the healing now, he has granted it in the resurrection. So I can pray in faith for healing expecting an answer sooner or later.
But if physical healing is not part of the atonement, there won't be a resurrection.
You are contradicting yourself...
-
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
David,
Some people learn in parts (analytically) and some do by seeing the whole (globally).
Maybe, what you attempted to show Dave in the past was not in the form he could get (grasp) it, even if he didn't agree with your conclusion.Could it be that the two of you, don't know or aware, of one another's worldview or presuppositions? One is never so smart, he can't learn anymore when it comes to God from His Word. Neither should one be unwilling, without cause, to help a brother. We are all disciples ("students", "learners" of God's Word).
All of CD is not and should not be like the "News & Current Events" section--passionately expressing personal, political views and opinions. CM
Thanks for helping out. > @davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.
Oh brother Dave. I can't help it if you do not know how to properly exegete a passage.
Help him. Better yet, show him. We can all benefit from your expertise. Humbly, suggested. CM
I've tried, but he is unteachable.
I do not recall reading anything but your opinion. How would you teach your position to your church? Maybe just an outline would help.
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
I appreciate your efforts. But sickness is the result of sin. And if Christ atoned for sin, he also provided for physical healing in the atonement by nullifying sickness' cause.
James says to pray for the sick so they can be healed. If your church does not do this, I better understand your position. But many churches pray for healing just as they do salvation, and receive it.
Then why do Christians still get sick Dave? And I have never said we do not pray for the sick so I don't know why you keep saying that.
Sin results in sickness and death. And we do not fully recover from sin's effects until we become as perfect as Jesus in the resurrection. But why repent when you stumble as a Christian? If it isn't necessary? Why pray for healing if our imperfect bodies fail?
When I pray for healing I know God always answers Yes. Because I know if he does not grant the healing now, he has granted it in the resurrection. So I can pray in faith for healing expecting an answer sooner or later.
But if physical healing is not part of the atonement, there won't be a resurrection.
You are contradicting yourself...
Please show how.....
-
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
David,
Some people learn in parts (analytically) and some do by seeing the whole (globally).
Maybe, what you attempted to show Dave in the past was not in the form he could get (grasp) it, even if he didn't agree with your conclusion.Could it be that the two of you, don't know or aware, of one another's worldview or presuppositions? One is never so smart, he can't learn anymore when it comes to God from His Word. Neither should one be unwilling, without cause, to help a brother. We are all disciples ("students", "learners" of God's Word).
All of CD is not and should not be like the "News & Current Events" section--passionately expressing personal, political views and opinions. CM
How do you interpret Isaiah 53?
“Surely our sicknesses he hath borne, And our pains—he hath carried them, And we—we have esteemed him plagued, Smitten of God, and afflicted.” (Isaiah 53:4)
Literal or metaphor?
“And he is pierced for our transgressions, Bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement of our peace is on him, And by his bruise there is healing to us.” (Isaiah 53:5)
Or Peter?
“He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we may cease from sinning and live for righteousness. By his wounds you were healed.” (1 Peter 2:24)
Or Matthew?
“Now when Jesus entered Peter’s house, he saw his mother-in-law lying down, sick with a fever. He touched her hand, and the fever left her. Then she got up and began to serve them. When it was evening, many demon-possessed people were brought to him. He drove out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick.In this way what was spoken by Isaiah the prophet was fulfilled: “He took our weaknesses and carried our diseases.”” (Matthew 8:14–17)
-
@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
David,
Some people learn in parts (analytically) and some do by seeing the whole (globally).
Maybe, what you attempted to show Dave in the past was not in the form he could get (grasp) it, even if he didn't agree with your conclusion.Could it be that the two of you, don't know or aware, of one another's worldview or presuppositions? One is never so smart, he can't learn anymore when it comes to God from His Word. Neither should one be unwilling, without cause, to help a brother. We are all disciples ("students", "learners" of God's Word).
All of CD is not and should not be like the "News & Current Events" section--passionately expressing personal, political views and opinions. CM
Thanks for helping out. > @davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.
Oh brother Dave. I can't help it if you do not know how to properly exegete a passage.
Help him. Better yet, show him. We can all benefit from your expertise. Humbly, suggested. CM
I've tried, but he is unteachable.
I do not recall reading anything but your opinion. How would you teach your position to your church? Maybe just an outline would help.
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
I appreciate your efforts. But sickness is the result of sin. And if Christ atoned for sin, he also provided for physical healing in the atonement by nullifying sickness' cause.
James says to pray for the sick so they can be healed. If your church does not do this, I better understand your position. But many churches pray for healing just as they do salvation, and receive it.
Then why do Christians still get sick Dave? And I have never said we do not pray for the sick so I don't know why you keep saying that.
Sin results in sickness and death. And we do not fully recover from sin's effects until we become as perfect as Jesus in the resurrection. But why repent when you stumble as a Christian? If it isn't necessary? Why pray for healing if our imperfect bodies fail?
When I pray for healing I know God always answers Yes. Because I know if he does not grant the healing now, he has granted it in the resurrection. So I can pray in faith for healing expecting an answer sooner or later.
But if physical healing is not part of the atonement, there won't be a resurrection.
You are contradicting yourself...
Please show how.....
Because you say by his stripes we are healed. You say the sin that caused the sickness is nullified therefore the sickness goes away. Then later you say not all sickness goes away. You can't have it both ways.
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
David,
Some people learn in parts (analytically) and some do by seeing the whole (globally).
Maybe, what you attempted to show Dave in the past was not in the form he could get (grasp) it, even if he didn't agree with your conclusion.Could it be that the two of you, don't know or aware, of one another's worldview or presuppositions? One is never so smart, he can't learn anymore when it comes to God from His Word. Neither should one be unwilling, without cause, to help a brother. We are all disciples ("students", "learners" of God's Word).
All of CD is not and should not be like the "News & Current Events" section--passionately expressing personal, political views and opinions. CM
Thanks for helping out. > @davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.
Oh brother Dave. I can't help it if you do not know how to properly exegete a passage.
Help him. Better yet, show him. We can all benefit from your expertise. Humbly, suggested. CM
I've tried, but he is unteachable.
I do not recall reading anything but your opinion. How would you teach your position to your church? Maybe just an outline would help.
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
I appreciate your efforts. But sickness is the result of sin. And if Christ atoned for sin, he also provided for physical healing in the atonement by nullifying sickness' cause.
James says to pray for the sick so they can be healed. If your church does not do this, I better understand your position. But many churches pray for healing just as they do salvation, and receive it.
Then why do Christians still get sick Dave? And I have never said we do not pray for the sick so I don't know why you keep saying that.
Sin results in sickness and death. And we do not fully recover from sin's effects until we become as perfect as Jesus in the resurrection. But why repent when you stumble as a Christian? If it isn't necessary? Why pray for healing if our imperfect bodies fail?
When I pray for healing I know God always answers Yes. Because I know if he does not grant the healing now, he has granted it in the resurrection. So I can pray in faith for healing expecting an answer sooner or later.
But if physical healing is not part of the atonement, there won't be a resurrection.
You are contradicting yourself...
Please show how.....
Because you say by his stripes we are healed. You say the sin that caused the sickness is nullified therefore the sickness goes away. Then later you say not all sickness goes away. You can't have it both ways.
Do you need to repent occasionally? Why? Because your perfection is not yet complete. Do you get sick occasionally? Why? Because your body is not yet resurrected into Christ's likeness. If you pray for forgiveness, you can also pray for healing.
-
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
David,
Some people learn in parts (analytically) and some do by seeing the whole (globally).
Maybe, what you attempted to show Dave in the past was not in the form he could get (grasp) it, even if he didn't agree with your conclusion.Could it be that the two of you, don't know or aware, of one another's worldview or presuppositions? One is never so smart, he can't learn anymore when it comes to God from His Word. Neither should one be unwilling, without cause, to help a brother. We are all disciples ("students", "learners" of God's Word).
All of CD is not and should not be like the "News & Current Events" section--passionately expressing personal, political views and opinions. CM
Thanks for helping out. > @davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.
Oh brother Dave. I can't help it if you do not know how to properly exegete a passage.
Help him. Better yet, show him. We can all benefit from your expertise. Humbly, suggested. CM
I've tried, but he is unteachable.
I do not recall reading anything but your opinion. How would you teach your position to your church? Maybe just an outline would help.
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
I appreciate your efforts. But sickness is the result of sin. And if Christ atoned for sin, he also provided for physical healing in the atonement by nullifying sickness' cause.
James says to pray for the sick so they can be healed. If your church does not do this, I better understand your position. But many churches pray for healing just as they do salvation, and receive it.
Then why do Christians still get sick Dave? And I have never said we do not pray for the sick so I don't know why you keep saying that.
Sin results in sickness and death. And we do not fully recover from sin's effects until we become as perfect as Jesus in the resurrection. But why repent when you stumble as a Christian? If it isn't necessary? Why pray for healing if our imperfect bodies fail?
When I pray for healing I know God always answers Yes. Because I know if he does not grant the healing now, he has granted it in the resurrection. So I can pray in faith for healing expecting an answer sooner or later.
But if physical healing is not part of the atonement, there won't be a resurrection.
You are contradicting yourself...
Please show how.....
Because you say by his stripes we are healed. You say the sin that caused the sickness is nullified therefore the sickness goes away. Then later you say not all sickness goes away. You can't have it both ways.
Do you need to repent occasionally? Why? Because your perfection is not yet complete. Do you get sick occasionally? Why? Because your body is not yet resurrected into Christ's likeness. If you pray for forgiveness, you can also pray for healing.
Again, you can't keep focused. You are mixing two things together that have nothing to do with each other.
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
David,
Some people learn in parts (analytically) and some do by seeing the whole (globally).
Maybe, what you attempted to show Dave in the past was not in the form he could get (grasp) it, even if he didn't agree with your conclusion.Could it be that the two of you, don't know or aware, of one another's worldview or presuppositions? One is never so smart, he can't learn anymore when it comes to God from His Word. Neither should one be unwilling, without cause, to help a brother. We are all disciples ("students", "learners" of God's Word).
All of CD is not and should not be like the "News & Current Events" section--passionately expressing personal, political views and opinions. CM
Thanks for helping out. > @davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.
Oh brother Dave. I can't help it if you do not know how to properly exegete a passage.
Help him. Better yet, show him. We can all benefit from your expertise. Humbly, suggested. CM
I've tried, but he is unteachable.
I do not recall reading anything but your opinion. How would you teach your position to your church? Maybe just an outline would help.
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
I appreciate your efforts. But sickness is the result of sin. And if Christ atoned for sin, he also provided for physical healing in the atonement by nullifying sickness' cause.
James says to pray for the sick so they can be healed. If your church does not do this, I better understand your position. But many churches pray for healing just as they do salvation, and receive it.
Then why do Christians still get sick Dave? And I have never said we do not pray for the sick so I don't know why you keep saying that.
Sin results in sickness and death. And we do not fully recover from sin's effects until we become as perfect as Jesus in the resurrection. But why repent when you stumble as a Christian? If it isn't necessary? Why pray for healing if our imperfect bodies fail?
When I pray for healing I know God always answers Yes. Because I know if he does not grant the healing now, he has granted it in the resurrection. So I can pray in faith for healing expecting an answer sooner or later.
But if physical healing is not part of the atonement, there won't be a resurrection.
You are contradicting yourself...
Please show how.....
Because you say by his stripes we are healed. You say the sin that caused the sickness is nullified therefore the sickness goes away. Then later you say not all sickness goes away. You can't have it both ways.
Do you need to repent occasionally? Why? Because your perfection is not yet complete. Do you get sick occasionally? Why? Because your body is not yet resurrected into Christ's likeness. If you pray for forgiveness, you can also pray for healing.
Again, you can't keep focused. You are mixing two things together that have nothing to do with each other.
Sin causes sickness and death.
Sin, sickness and death does not cease to exist until the resurrection.
Christians sin and need to ask forgiveness.
Christians also become sick from sin and need to pray for healing.
Christians appropriate the atonement through faith not only for the forgiveness of sins, but also for the healing of the body.
Some do not have faith to appropriate the atonement for healing, so they miss out.
-
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
David,
Some people learn in parts (analytically) and some do by seeing the whole (globally).
Maybe, what you attempted to show Dave in the past was not in the form he could get (grasp) it, even if he didn't agree with your conclusion.Could it be that the two of you, don't know or aware, of one another's worldview or presuppositions? One is never so smart, he can't learn anymore when it comes to God from His Word. Neither should one be unwilling, without cause, to help a brother. We are all disciples ("students", "learners" of God's Word).
All of CD is not and should not be like the "News & Current Events" section--passionately expressing personal, political views and opinions. CM
Thanks for helping out. > @davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.
Oh brother Dave. I can't help it if you do not know how to properly exegete a passage.
Help him. Better yet, show him. We can all benefit from your expertise. Humbly, suggested. CM
I've tried, but he is unteachable.
I do not recall reading anything but your opinion. How would you teach your position to your church? Maybe just an outline would help.
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
I appreciate your efforts. But sickness is the result of sin. And if Christ atoned for sin, he also provided for physical healing in the atonement by nullifying sickness' cause.
James says to pray for the sick so they can be healed. If your church does not do this, I better understand your position. But many churches pray for healing just as they do salvation, and receive it.
Then why do Christians still get sick Dave? And I have never said we do not pray for the sick so I don't know why you keep saying that.
Sin results in sickness and death. And we do not fully recover from sin's effects until we become as perfect as Jesus in the resurrection. But why repent when you stumble as a Christian? If it isn't necessary? Why pray for healing if our imperfect bodies fail?
When I pray for healing I know God always answers Yes. Because I know if he does not grant the healing now, he has granted it in the resurrection. So I can pray in faith for healing expecting an answer sooner or later.
But if physical healing is not part of the atonement, there won't be a resurrection.
You are contradicting yourself...
Please show how.....
Because you say by his stripes we are healed. You say the sin that caused the sickness is nullified therefore the sickness goes away. Then later you say not all sickness goes away. You can't have it both ways.
Do you need to repent occasionally? Why? Because your perfection is not yet complete. Do you get sick occasionally? Why? Because your body is not yet resurrected into Christ's likeness. If you pray for forgiveness, you can also pray for healing.
Again, you can't keep focused. You are mixing two things together that have nothing to do with each other.
- Sin causes sickness and death.
Agree
- Sin, sickness and death does not cease to exist until the resurrection.
Agree
- Christians sin and need to ask forgiveness.
Agree
- Christians also become sick from sin and need to pray for healing.
Agree
- Christians appropriate the atonement through faith not only for the forgiveness of sins, but also for the healing of the body.
No I do not agree with this at all.
- Some do not have faith to appropriate the atonement for healing, so they miss out.
I don't agree with this either.
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
Because you say by his stripes we are healed. You say the sin that caused the sickness is nullified therefore the sickness goes away. Then later you say not all sickness goes away. You can't have it both ways.
One can't answer or participate in a discussion if the basic question or questions are not clear. What is Dave getting at?
1. Is he trying to exegete the above passages?
2. How are people healed?
3. Who does the healing of the sick?
4. Is he dealing with miraculous healings?
5. Ultimate healing of humanity (no more sickness, disease, etc)?
6. The value and the need medication vs faith?
7. Is Only faith needed to be healed?
8. Is it acceptable for Christians to combine medication and faith?
9. What hinders healing?Are any of these questions come close to Dave's main point?
Perhaps, could it be too soon for Dave to draw a conclusion before establishing a base premise or pointed question? CM
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
David,
Some people learn in parts (analytically) and some do by seeing the whole (globally).
Maybe, what you attempted to show Dave in the past was not in the form he could get (grasp) it, even if he didn't agree with your conclusion.Could it be that the two of you, don't know or aware, of one another's worldview or presuppositions? One is never so smart, he can't learn anymore when it comes to God from His Word. Neither should one be unwilling, without cause, to help a brother. We are all disciples ("students", "learners" of God's Word).
All of CD is not and should not be like the "News & Current Events" section--passionately expressing personal, political views and opinions. CM
Thanks for helping out. > @davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
This is what I'm saying, you cannot make Isaiah say what you think he says. If you can destroy the meaning of Isaiah, there is not one scripture that isn't up for grabs.
Oh brother Dave. I can't help it if you do not know how to properly exegete a passage.
Help him. Better yet, show him. We can all benefit from your expertise. Humbly, suggested. CM
I've tried, but he is unteachable.
I do not recall reading anything but your opinion. How would you teach your position to your church? Maybe just an outline would help.
Dave, I've given you the commentary research, I've shown you from the own lexicon entry you posted a different meaning, I've shown context, I've shown Peter's understanding. You simply won't change your opinion no matter how much evidence is thrown at you.
I appreciate your efforts. But sickness is the result of sin. And if Christ atoned for sin, he also provided for physical healing in the atonement by nullifying sickness' cause.
James says to pray for the sick so they can be healed. If your church does not do this, I better understand your position. But many churches pray for healing just as they do salvation, and receive it.
Then why do Christians still get sick Dave? And I have never said we do not pray for the sick so I don't know why you keep saying that.
Sin results in sickness and death. And we do not fully recover from sin's effects until we become as perfect as Jesus in the resurrection. But why repent when you stumble as a Christian? If it isn't necessary? Why pray for healing if our imperfect bodies fail?
When I pray for healing I know God always answers Yes. Because I know if he does not grant the healing now, he has granted it in the resurrection. So I can pray in faith for healing expecting an answer sooner or later.
But if physical healing is not part of the atonement, there won't be a resurrection.
You are contradicting yourself...
Please show how.....
Because you say by his stripes we are healed. You say the sin that caused the sickness is nullified therefore the sickness goes away. Then later you say not all sickness goes away. You can't have it both ways.
Do you need to repent occasionally? Why? Because your perfection is not yet complete. Do you get sick occasionally? Why? Because your body is not yet resurrected into Christ's likeness. If you pray for forgiveness, you can also pray for healing.
Again, you can't keep focused. You are mixing two things together that have nothing to do with each other.
- Sin causes sickness and death.
Agree
- Sin, sickness and death does not cease to exist until the resurrection.
Agree
- Christians sin and need to ask forgiveness.
Agree
- Christians also become sick from sin and need to pray for healing.
Agree
- Christians appropriate the atonement through faith not only for the forgiveness of sins, but also for the healing of the body.
No I do not agree with this at all.
- Some do not have faith to appropriate the atonement for healing, so they miss out.
I don't agree with this either.
God gives us faith depending on his will. I know he will heal me in the resurrection and I always have faith for that. But I also know if faith is present concerning any temporal need, whether healing or financial provisions, help is on the way. I've lived this for over 40 years. And have not had a family physician since the early 80s.
-
Dave, may I suggest you go get a complete checkup.
-
@C_M_ said:
Dave, may I suggest you go get a complete checkup.I get a daily check-up every morning in how I stand in relation to God's word. Where else can I get a better check-up?
-
I believe he meant a health check-up and you get that from the doctor, not the Bible.
-
Right!
Dave, I was in nowhere questioning your spiritual health. Peace and health! CM -
@davidtaylorjr said:
I believe he meant a health check-up and you get that from the doctor, not the Bible.
You're right, I misunderstood.
-
@C_M_ said:
Right!
Dave, I was in nowhere questioning your spiritual health. Peace and health! CMSorry Charles, I goofed...
-
@C_M_ said:
Dave, may I suggest you go get a complete checkup.Incidentally, I keep close tabs on my health. Dentist twice a year. DNA tested for genetic weaknesses etc...
