Another Cardinal (Theodore McCarrick) Getting to the bottom: Self-Investigation or Special Counsel?
Comments
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@Dave_L said:
Here's a couple more situations I can think of. One happened about 4 years ago to a music minister I knew personally but not too well. (I sold him some equipment for his church.) They arrested him for having an improper relationship with a teenage boy nearing legal age, apparently on several different occasions. The teen obviously made himself available and built a trust relationship with the minister. As I remember a cop or someone caught them parked together. Long story short. Jr. skates being the victim and the minister is doing time, lots of it.Then there was the pedophile music store owner who twinked local boys who just loved hanging out at his store. He went undetected by the authorities, but the boys had this to live down for the rest of their lives. The media made this more palatable painting them as victims. But boys will be boys.
Dave,
That's why they have investigations, courts, lawyers, judges, etc. Let me put it this way: I don't care how sexually charged a child is, sex between an adult and a child is WRONG!Now, let's not confuse an illegal act with false accusations. It's better to be falsely accused (sometimes jailed) than to be guilty as charged. The former (even in jail) one will have an inner peace of mind. The latter, the weight of the crime, scar, shame, sin and the predilection to repeat and/or addictions are internal demons one would have to contend with for years to come. I am not saying there is no heavenly forgiveness. What I am sure of; there should not be business as usual or a reassignment of a priest. CM
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@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
Here's a couple more situations I can think of. One happened about 4 years ago to a music minister I knew personally but not too well. (I sold him some equipment for his church.) They arrested him for having an improper relationship with a teenage boy nearing legal age, apparently on several different occasions. The teen obviously made himself available and built a trust relationship with the minister. As I remember a cop or someone caught them parked together. Long story short. Jr. skates being the victim and the minister is doing time, lots of it.Then there was the pedophile music store owner who twinked local boys who just loved hanging out at his store. He went undetected by the authorities, but the boys had this to live down for the rest of their lives. The media made this more palatable painting them as victims. But boys will be boys.
Dave,
That's why they have investigations, courts, lawyers, judges, etc. Let me put it this way: I don't care how sexually charged a child is, sex between an adult and a child is WRONG!Now, let's not confuse an illegal act with false accusations. It's better to be falsely accused (sometimes jailed) than to be guilty as charged. The former (even in jail) one will have an inner peace of mind. The latter, the weight of the crime, scar, shame, sin and the predilection to repeat and/or addictions are internal demons one would have to contend with for years to come. I am not saying there is no heavenly forgiveness. What I am sure of; there should not be business as usual or a reassignment of a priest. CM
I too believe this is wrong, but we are talking about placing blame where it belongs, in an effort to stop it.
What I've mentioned happened in three different communities, "Norman Rockwell's America". And it will continue just as killing will continue until we get the guns off the streets. Dry up the source calling it for what it is.
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@Dave_L said:
I do not think things are as black & white as you imagine them to be. There are victims and there are accomplices who unload their guilt claiming to be the victim you and others make them out to be. But the boys I knew certainly were not victims. They were all in it together.You're clearly referencing particular incidents, Dave. I'm addressing a larger principle.
Yes, accusations must be proved, the rights of people accused of assault must be protected and enforced, and there are instances of false accusations. But those are issues of the legal arena. I'm addressing issues of the relational, moral, and Scriptural arenas.
- In relationships between people of differing power - such as between a pastor/priest/rabbi/imam/etc and a child - the person with the greater power - almost always the religious leader in the cases just cited - has the responsibility to maintain the health, safety, and morality of the relationship. Yes, inappropriate behavior is possible from children involved in such relationships. But the religious leader is then responsible to see that such behavior is handled appropriately and does not threaten the health, safety, and morality of the relationship.
- As for Scripture: About the Deuteronomy 22.23-24 text you cited earlier in this thread, for the fourth time I ask, in what way(s) do you believe that text is actually applicable to children assaulted by adults? If in certain circumstances, adult women can be assumed to have cried for help, doesn't it just seem right to assume in even more circumstances that children did? Or better, not to impose upon kids (or adult women!) the responsibility to cry for help as they are assaulted if they want to avoid punishment for or doubts about their claims?
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Bill, you are always demanding a distraction. That is your right of course. A man with a whole can of Red Herrings.
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@Dave_L said:
I too believe this is wrong, but we are talking about placing blame where it belongs, in an effort to stop it.
If you as serious, as stated, may I suggest you look at the institution (Catholic Church) and various community societies. What is their level of toleration? CM
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@GaoLu said:
Bill, you are always demanding a distraction. That is your right of course. A man with a whole can of Red Herrings.Ironic, I think it is, that your claim about my distraction demands actually distracts from the fact that your post includes no response to the request I made in my previous response to you.
Surely you remember that earlier in this thread you called me "politically correct," but "morally incorrect" and "intellectually dishonest," labels which prompted me to ask for your "morally correct" and "intellectually honest" view of the responsibility for securing the health, safety, and morality of the relationship between an adult and a child.
Please don't let distraction demand accusations and shouts out to the herring industry distract you from responding to that request. I don't want anyone to think you're a poster who accuses but doesn't prove, who diagnoses ("You're morally incorrect!") but doesn't prescribe ("Here's the morally correct view") This exchange of ours can be an important corrective for my PC/MI/ID view of relationships between adults and kids. I look forward to your reply.
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I would love some insights on the OP (serious matters) FROM THE TWO OF YOU (GaoLu/Bill). CM
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@C_M_ said:
I would love some insights on the OP (serious matters) FROM THE TWO OF YOU (GaoLu/Bill). CMI've offered several posts in this thread that reported my views on the relationship between religious leaders and the people of they serve, as well as the special responsibility I believe those leaders have in their relationships with minor children.
The exchange between Gao Lu and me for the most part has been a disruptive sideshow, I acknowledge.
Post edited by Bill_Coley on -
@Bill_Coley said:
@C_M_ said:
I would love some insights on the OP (serious matters) FROM THE TWO OF YOU (GaoLu/Bill). CMI've offered several posts in this thread that reported my views on the relationship between religious leaders and the people of they serve, as well as the special responsibility I believe those leaders have in their relationships with minor children.
The exchange between Gao Lu and me for the most part has been a disruptive sideshow, I acknowledge.
Bill,
This is quite disappointing. Do you have any suggestions for an overall solution for justice and the reassurance of families and society? In short, See the questions in the OP. Thanks for any considerations. CM -
Vatican City still has no policy to fight clergy sex abuse
Now, you see, this is a real problem. For those who think I into "Catholic Bashing", please read the full article (https://apnews.com/2b67901dc55c45eb9da9c9a012210e49). I am not sure this link works. Notwithstanding, families and children are not safe. CM
VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis has taken measures to address a spiraling sex abuse scandal in Chile, but he hasn't moved on a problem closer to home: Vatican City itself does not have policies to protect children from pedophile priests or require suspected abuse to be reported to police.
Seven years after the Vatican ordered all bishops conferences around the world to develop written guidelines to prevent abuse, tend to victims, punish offenders and keep pedophiles out of the priesthood, the headquarters of the Catholic Church has no such policy.
The gap in Francis' oft-pledged "zero tolerance" for abuse is surprising, given that the Holy See told the United Nations five years ago that it was developing a "safe environment program" for children inside the 44-acre Vatican City.
Asked about the promised child protection guidelines, the secretary general of the Vatican City State administration, Monsignor Fernando Vergez, told The Associated Press he couldn't respond "since the study and verification of the project are still underway."
Yes, Francis in 2013 updated Vatican City's legal code to criminalize sexual violence against children and just last month the Vatican tribunal convicted a former diplomat of possession and distribution of child pornography.
And one could argue that, beyond the new law, a written policy and safe environment program is unnecessary in a city state where only a handful of children live full time.
But thousands of children pass through the Vatican walls every day, touring the Vatican Museums, attending papal audiences and Masses and visiting St. Peter's Square and basilica.
And Vatican City authorities wouldn't have to look far for help in crafting such a policy. The pope's own Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors — his hand-picked sex abuse advisory board — has a template for such guidelines on its Vatican website.
The absence of clear-cut policy became evident late last year following revelations that a teenage seminarian in the Vatican's youth seminary had, in 2012, accused one of the older boys of sexually molesting his roommate.
Nothing came of it. Vatican police, who have jurisdiction over the territory, weren't called in to investigate. A series of bishops — including Cardinal Angelo Comastri, Francis' vicar for Rome and the archpriest of St. Peter's Basilica — said they investigated, but no one ever interviewed the alleged victim.
The student who lodged the complaint, Kamil Jarzembowski, was promptly kicked out of the seminary while the accused seminarian was ordained a priest last year. WHAT ASHAME!
The Associated Press has learned that the victim has since filed a formal complaint with the Vatican's criminal tribunal and Italian church authorities launched a canonical investigation into the newly ordained priest.
Those developments occurred after Italian journalists Gaetano Pecoraro and Gianluigi Nuzzi exposed the scandal last year, prompting the Vatican to reopen the investigation. In their reports, Jarzembowski's story — including all the letters he sent to church authorities, Vatican officials and the pope over the years — came to light.
"In those years when I was sending letters, there was never any response," Jarzembowski told the AP. "I was really hurting, because silence can be a real weapon that hurts you when you suffer. You make a denunciation and no one will deal with it."
Church officials had discounted Jarzembowski's complaint, claiming that he only went public with it because he was bitter at having been kicked out of the seminary. Jarzembowski is indeed bitter — the Polish student had to scramble to find a place to live and a new school for his senior year of high school.
The seminary in question, located inside a palazzo just a few steps from the Vatican hotel where Francis lives, serves as a residence for about a dozen boys, aged 12 to 18, who serve as altar boys at papal Masses.
Jarzembowski says his roommate was first molested by the older seminarian when both were minors, but that the molestation continued after the older seminarian turned 18.
The status of the investigation is unclear. Calls and emails to the Diocese of Como, which is in charge of the seminary and is conducting the canonical investigation, were not returned. The Vatican spokesman declined several requests for comment.
But the lack of a full-fledged investigation into Jarzembowski's original claims exposed how the absence of a policy on handling abuse complaints can have repercussions.
"If the Holy See can't be bothered to safeguard the handful of kids in its own backyard, how can it possibly protect the millions of children in its care worldwide?" asked Anne Barrett Doyle of the online research database BishopAccountability.org. "It's a small but telling measure of the Catholic Church's disconnect when it comes to its abuse problem. It makes promises that it abandons or forgets once the world's attention fades."
The promises were made five years ago, when the Vatican went before the U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child to defend its efforts to combat the global sex abuse scandal.
The Holy See argued that the U.N. child rights convention was "territorial" in nature, and that the Holy See can't possibly be responsible for implementing it outside the confines of Vatican City. Within the city state, however, it told the U.N. it was taking extensive measures to protect children.
Not surprisingly, the U.N. committee dismissed the Vatican's argument and urged the Vatican to not only make good on protecting children inside Vatican territory but globally.
"We did not agree with the narrow understanding of implementation ... as confined to the Vatican City state," Kirsten Sandberg, who was president of the U.N. committee at the time, said.
The Vatican was supposed to report back to the committee last September about progress it has made since its 2013 submission. Sandberg said countries are often late on those deadlines — the Holy See was 14 years late when it finally submitted its responses in 2013.
She said she hoped the Holy See in its next report would follow up on a core recommendation to require cooperation with police rather than keeping investigations exclusively in-house.
"They should leave the cases to the judicial authorities," she said.
The church is becoming more and more a cesspool of sin and corruption. Where is the end? CM
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The Catholics have been doing this and far worse for centuries. But I counter them teaching against their cardinal doctrine of Free Will. (the one ya'll love so much). In doing so, I help remove the naive from their clutches. Also I teach they are the main Antichrist warned about in Scripture. If you stop them from molesting minds, you can stop them from molesting bodies too.
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@Bill_Coley said:
@Dave_L said:
I do not think things are as black & white as you imagine them to be. There are victims and there are accomplices who unload their guilt claiming to be the victim you and others make them out to be. But the boys I knew certainly were not victims. They were all in it together.You're clearly referencing particular incidents, Dave. I'm addressing a larger principle.
Yes, accusations must be proved, the rights of people accused of assault must be protected and enforced, and there are instances of false accusations. But those are issues of the legal arena. I'm addressing issues of the relational, moral, and Scriptural arenas.
- In relationships between people of differing power - such as between a pastor/priest/rabbi/imam/etc and a child - the person with the greater power - almost always the religious leader in the cases just cited - has the responsibility to maintain the health, safety, and morality of the relationship. Yes, inappropriate behavior is possible from children involved in such relationships. But the religious leader is then responsible to see that such behavior is handled appropriately and does not threaten the health, safety, and morality of the relationship.
- As for Scripture: About the Deuteronomy 22.23-24 text you cited earlier in this thread, for the fourth time I ask, in what way(s) do you believe that text is actually applicable to children assaulted by adults? If in certain circumstances, adult women can be assumed to have cried for help, doesn't it just seem right to assume in even more circumstances that children did? Or better, not to impose upon kids (or adult women!) the responsibility to cry for help as they are assaulted if they want to avoid punishment for or doubts about their claims?
The thing is, Bill, what I present is a cross section of three different communities in three different states over 50 years. And I'm sure there is more if I want to go looking for it.
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There is one solution: Lordship of Jesus Christ in the human heart and mind. That occurs with authentic salvation.
Eph 4
21 if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. -
@Dave_L said:
I'm not saying there aren't "innocent victims". But all any need to do is yell rape! and remove all suspicion that they aren't in on it. (some exceptions exist.) Deuteronomy 22:23–24
Dave,
Here is the full passage along with a few points, and resource used. Some in CD dislike this, but I hope you would appreciate it:In the OT, Premarital Sex with a Betrothed Virgin is covered in Deut 22:23–27. Note especially, Deuteronomy 22:25–29 (NASB95)—
- -- 25 “But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die.
- -- 26 “But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case.
- -- 27 “When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her.
- -- 28 “If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered.
- -- 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.
The Bible, in general, speaks forcefully against sexual exploitation. Throughout Scripture, sexual relations are portrayed as holy, ordained of God at the time of Creation, not to be indulged frivolously, and certainly not to involve violent trampling of the rights and dignity of the marriage partner.
The seventh commandment is not simply a prohibition of adultery; it is a divine commission governing sexual relationships. Directives uplifting this model relationship abound in the Old Testament.
- A man who seduced a woman was required to marry her (see Deut. 22:13-29).
- To have sexual relations with an engaged or married woman was a capital offense (see Deut. 22:22, 24).
- Seducing an unengaged girl was a crime (see Ex. 22:16, 17).
- Incest was prohibited (see Lev. 19:29).
- Many Old Testament stories illustrate the intense rage expressed against rapists (see Gen. 34; 2 Sam. 11:12-14; 13:14-33; 16; Judges 20:5ff).
Although the New Testament does not speak specifically about rape, Christ's teaching on adultery defines for us the high road of sexual relationships.
- In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus defined adultery not just as an act, but as a thought that precedes the act. "Anyone who looks at a woman lustfully," said Jesus, "has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matt. 5:28, NIV). This makes clear the highest value and dignity of a human being and precludes the passions and lust that motivate rape.
Consider also how Jesus dealt with the woman caught in adultery (see John 8:2-11). He turned the table on the men who likely were responsible for actions. Jesus focused on the thoughts of men toward that woman rather than on her actions or the accusation against her. As James Hurley points out: "It is not the presence of a woman, but the sinful thoughts of a man, which makes the situation dangerous."
What are they being taught in Catholic Seminaries? They seem to be a hotbed for closeted homosexual men. Could this be a source for the long history of child sexual abuse in the church? CM
SOURCE:
-- James B. Hurley, Man and Woman in Biblical Perspective (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1981), p. 109.
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@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
I'm not saying there aren't "innocent victims". But all any need to do is yell rape! and remove all suspicion that they aren't in on it. (some exceptions exist.) Deuteronomy 22:23–24
Dave,
Here is the full passage along with a few points, and resource used. Some in CD dislike this, but I hope you would appreciate it:In the OT, Premarital Sex with a Betrothed Virgin is covered in Deut 22:23–27. Note especially, Deuteronomy 22:25–29 (NASB95)—
- -- 25 “But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die.
- -- 26 “But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case.
- -- 27 “When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her.
- -- 28 “If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered.
- -- 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.
The Bible, in general, speaks forcefully against sexual exploitation. Throughout Scripture, sexual relations are portrayed as holy, ordained of God at the time of Creation, not to be indulged frivolously, and certainly not to involve violent trampling of the rights and dignity of the marriage partner.
The seventh commandment is not simply a prohibition of adultery; it is a divine commission governing sexual relationships. Directives uplifting this model relationship abound in the Old Testament.
- A man who seduced a woman was required to marry her (see Deut. 22:13-29).
- To have sexual relations with an engaged or married woman was a capital offense (see Deut. 22:22, 24).
- Seducing an unengaged girl was a crime (see Ex. 22:16, 17).
- Incest was prohibited (see Lev. 19:29).
- Many Old Testament stories illustrate the intense rage expressed against rapists (see Gen. 34; 2 Sam. 11:12-14; 13:14-33; 16; Judges 20:5ff).
Although the New Testament does not speak specifically about rape, Christ's teaching on adultery defines for us the high road of sexual relationships.
- In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus defined adultery not just as an act, but as a thought that precedes the act. "Anyone who looks at a woman lustfully," said Jesus, "has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matt. 5:28, NIV). This makes clear the highest value and dignity of a human being and precludes the passions and lust that motivate rape.
Consider also how Jesus dealt with the woman caught in adultery (see John 8:2-11). He turned the table on the men who likely were responsible for actions. Jesus focused on the thoughts of men toward that woman rather than on her actions or the accusation against her. As James Hurley points out: "It is not the presence of a woman, but the sinful thoughts of a man, which makes the situation dangerous."
What are they being taught in Catholic Seminaries? They seem to be a hotbed for closeted homosexual men. Could this be a source for the long history of child sexual abuse in the church? CM
SOURCE:
-- James B. Hurley, Man and Woman in Biblical Perspective (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1981), p. 109.
This is all fine. But I'm saying beyond a certain point, perverted kids seek out perverted adults. And giving the little perverts a free pass will only lead to more abuse.
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@Dave_L said:
This is all fine. But I'm saying beyond a certain point, perverted kids seek out perverted adults. And giving the little perverts a free pass will only lead to more abuse.
Dave,
Come, now, let us reason together.First of all, "little perverts" are not the Catholic Church's problem. It's a culture of sex-crimes that is tolerated by too many people, for too long, with too much money has paid out.
Secondly, there are too many weak-minded priests, too little oversight, too little accountability; over, too many years. Is homosexuality an inherent condition or learned behavior. Can these priests help themselves?
Thirdly, if the people in a position of trust would not indulge the "little perverts", is a step in the right direction. This is a means to help stop the situation. Why do you seem to give so much power to the "little perverts" over the morally mature adults, administrators, and the laws of the land?
Fourthly, have you consider the following child sex-crime incubator:
- What about allowing priests to marry?
- What about a mental health screening of all priests and moral stability and homosexual tendencies and affiliations?
- What about turning molesters in for prosecution by the laws of the land?
- What about no re-assignments of known pedophile priests?
These and others steps must be considered. CM
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Speaking from ignorance is not helpful CM. I have counseled a few men who were once boys from boarding schools. Dave isn't elegant of politically correct, but he is right on this matter.
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@GaoLu said:
Speaking from ignorance is not helpful CM. I have counseled a few men who were once boys from boarding schools. Dave isn't elegant of politically correct, but he is right on this matter."Speaking from ignorance is not helpful", please clarify this statement. I am not suggesting "giving the little perverts a free pass." What are you talking about? Please, enlighten me. CM
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@GaoLu said:
Speaking from ignorance is not helpful CM. I have counseled a few men who were once boys from boarding schools. Dave isn't elegant of politically correct, but he is right on this matter.Thanks Gaolu. My wife & I were houseparents for a year or so, and I haven't mentioned these examples of perversion yet.
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@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
This is all fine. But I'm saying beyond a certain point, perverted kids seek out perverted adults. And giving the little perverts a free pass will only lead to more abuse.
Dave,
Come, now, let us reason together.First of all, "little perverts" are not the Catholic Church's problem. It's a culture of sex-crimes that is tolerated by too many people, for too long, with too much money has paid out.
Secondly, there are too many weak-minded priests, too little oversight, too little accountability; over, too many years. Is homosexuality an inherent condition or learned behavior. Can these priests help themselves?
Thirdly, if the people in a position of trust would not indulge the "little perverts", is a step in the right direction. This is a means to help stop the situation. Why do you seem to give so much power to the "little perverts" over the morally mature adults, administrators, and the laws of the land?
Fourthly, have you consider the following child sex-crime incubator:
- What about allowing priests to marry?
- What about a mental health screening of all priests and moral stability and homosexual tendencies and affiliations?
- What about turning molesters in for prosecution by the laws of the land?
- What about no re-assignments of known pedophile priests?
These and others steps must be considered. CM
Here's another angle to consider. God curses people with homosexuality for their wickedness according to Romans 1. And wickedness defines the Papacy throughout history. The millions of believers they slaughtered throughout history alone speaks for this. So I can also view the situation as a curse God placed on Catholics and their children. Which if true, there is little you can do but try to reach the kids for Christ which would cause them to flee.
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@Dave_L said:
"... So I can also view the situation as a curse God placed on Catholics and their children. Which if true, there is little you can do but try to reach the kids for Christ which would cause them to flee."Wow! Any texts and/or historical sources to support your conclusion beyond what's stated? CM
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@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
"... So I can also view the situation as a curse God placed on Catholics and their children. Which if true, there is little you can do but try to reach the kids for Christ which would cause them to flee."Wow! Any texts and/or historical sources to support your conclusion beyond what's stated? CM
“They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.” (Romans 1:25–27)
Also consider Foxe's Book of Martyrs; Martyr's Mirror
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@Dave_L said:
Wow! Any texts and/or historical sources to support your conclusion beyond what's stated? CM
“They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.” (Romans 1:25–27)
Also consider Foxe's Book of Martyrs; Martyr's Mirror
Dave,
History is a mirror reflection of the past. However, it's true, if we don't know from once we have come, we don't know where we are going. Notwithstanding, how do we help today's children and families to stop the molestations? CM -
@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
Wow! Any texts and/or historical sources to support your conclusion beyond what's stated? CM
“They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.” (Romans 1:25–27)
Also consider Foxe's Book of Martyrs; Martyr's Mirror
Dave,
History is a mirror reflection of the past. However, it's true, if we don't know from once we have come, we don't know where we are going. Notwithstanding, how do we help today's children and families to stop the molestations? CMThanks for asking. I didn't mention the molestations my wife and I saw as houseparents. And also led me to place the blame where it belongs. If you lock up all the priests, which by the way is not a bad idea. Even if done preemptively....., the abuse will continue. Because kids will be kids.
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@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
History is a mirror reflection of the past. However, it's true, if we don't know from once we have come, we don't know where we are going. Notwithstanding, how do we help today's children and families to stop the molestations? CMThanks for asking. I didn't mention the molestations my wife and I saw as houseparents. And also led me to place the blame where it belongs. If you lock up all the priests, which by the way is not a bad idea. Even if done preemptively....., the abuse will continue. Because kids will be kids.
I don't know what you and your wife saw as houseparents, but I don't believe the kids are the driving force of the Catholic Church's molestation problems worldwide. I understand this side of the fall:
- Man (including kids) has the tendency toward evil.
- Kids molest who have been molested.
- Kids that are sexually devious are from an environment of perverted activities and the viewing of porn (TV, internet, phone, movies, magazines, etc.) regularly, for long periods of time. I can't fathom kids having so much, power and influence over priests.
Even with this understanding, the priests and church bear responsibility for the safeguard of families, nuns, and the children. To think or do otherwise is to give the church a pass, indirectly, and to justify the continuation of business as usual.
If priests are so weak and immoral in the face of a child or children, they don't need a pulpit or a Perish, but a place in prison. God help the families, the children, and the Church to do its part to end this thing. CM
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@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
History is a mirror reflection of the past. However, it's true, if we don't know from once we have come, we don't know where we are going. Notwithstanding, how do we help today's children and families to stop the molestations? CMThanks for asking. I didn't mention the molestations my wife and I saw as houseparents. And also led me to place the blame where it belongs. If you lock up all the priests, which by the way is not a bad idea. Even if done preemptively....., the abuse will continue. Because kids will be kids.
I don't know what you and your wife saw as houseparents, but I don't believe the kids are the driving force of the Catholic Church's molestation problems worldwide. I understand this side of the fall:
- Man (including kids) has the tendency toward evil.
- Kids molest who have been molested.
- Kids that are sexually devious are from an environment of perverted activities and the viewing of porn (TV, internet, phone, movies, magazines, etc.) regularly, for long periods of time. I can't fathom kids having so much, power and influence over priests.
Even with this understanding, the priests and church bear responsibility for the safeguard of families, nuns, and the children. To think or do otherwise is to give the church a pass, indirectly, and to justify the continuation of business as usual.
If priests are so weak and immoral in the face of a child or children, they don't need a pulpit or a Perish, but a place in prison. God help the families, the children, and the Church to do its part to end this thing. CM
I'm only saying perverts are born, not made.
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Dave,
I'm only saying perverts are born, not made.
I would rethink this. CM
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“He said, “What comes out of a person defiles him. For from within, out of the human heart, come evil ideas, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, evil, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, pride, and folly. All these evils come from within and defile a person.”” (Mark 7:20–23)
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@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
If priests are so weak and immoral in the face of a child or children, they don't need a pulpit or a Perish, but a place in prison. God help the families, the children, and the Church to do its part to end this thing. CM
I'm only saying perverts are born, not made.
@Dave_L said:
“He said, “What comes out of a person defiles him. For from within, out of the human heart, come evil ideas, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, evil, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, pride, and folly. All these evils come from within and defile a person.”” (Mark 7:20–23)
Dave,
Are you willing to say the same thing and apply Mark 7:20–23, to the Pedophile Priests and the Roman Church, "perverts are born, not made"?Do you want to rethink your "perverts are born, not made" statement? CM
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@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
If priests are so weak and immoral in the face of a child or children, they don't need a pulpit or a Perish, but a place in prison. God help the families, the children, and the Church to do its part to end this thing. CM
I'm only saying perverts are born, not made.
@Dave_L said:
“He said, “What comes out of a person defiles him. For from within, out of the human heart, come evil ideas, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, evil, deceit, debauchery, envy, slander, pride, and folly. All these evils come from within and defile a person.”” (Mark 7:20–23)
Dave,
Are you willing to say the same thing and apply Mark 7:20–23, to the Pedophile Priests and the Roman Church, "perverts are born, not made"?Do you want to rethink your "perverts are born, not made" statement? CM
Scripture says perverts are born. “Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, depravity, idolatry, sorcery, hostilities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish rivalries, dissensions, factions, envying, murder, drunkenness, carousing, and similar things. I am warning you, as I had warned you before: Those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God!” (Galatians 5:19–21)
So the "Priest" job, and any other kid related job, teachers etc., attracts them. If the job made them into perverts, all would be practicing perverts.
