Another Cardinal (Theodore McCarrick) Getting to the bottom: Self-Investigation or Special Counsel?

Bill_Coley

@Dave_L and @C_M_ ,

In your posts in this thread, you two have focused almost exclusively on the incidence of child sexual abuse/assault that has taken place in the Roman Catholic Church. While the evil in those cases is obvious, the narrow scope of your posts' scorn might lead casual readers to believe child sexual abuse in the Church is principally a Catholic problem, when in fact it is not.

In 2007, at least, the three insurance companies that provided most of the coverage to Protestant churches reported a total of 260 cases of alleged child sexual abuse per year. That number is certainly comparable to the 228 cases/year reported by the Catholic Church (13,000 since 1950).

Are there unreported cases in the Catholic Church? No doubt. In Protestant churches, too.

My simple point here is that child sexual abuse is a problem for the WHOLE of the Church, not just the Roman Catholic piece of the church. Pastors and youth leaders in Protestant churches ALSO commit horrific acts against children.

C Mc

@Bill_Coley said:

My simple point here is that child sexual abuse is a problem for the WHOLE of the Church, not just the Roman Catholic piece of the church.

Bill,
Thanks for your input. Your "simple point" is well taken, a truth not lost on me. Let me respond to a concern you seem to be mostly concern beyond the fact that "child sexual abuse/assault takes place in the Protestant churches ALSO."

What appears to be a "narrow scope" is really broader than you perceive:

1. The Catholic Churches' problem is long-standing and systemic.
2. The Catholic Church is the largest Christian body in the world.
3. It was recently in the news about a television personality priest (see clip above).
4. Positions of trust that is endangering the lives of children and families.
5. No other church organization is given the privilege to investigate itself of child sex crimes. There are concerns about fairness and the stench of being above the law.
6. A review of the OP and my subsequent posts, you will see that my concerns centered on the solution to the problem regardless of where the infraction took place.
7. What appears to be a "narrow scope" of my "posts' scorn" were my responses to Dave's of his personal experiences and observations of some children's behavior in relating to priests.
8. I think your labeling of my posts, mainly with Dave, as "almost exclusively on the incidence of child sexual abuse/assault that has taken place in the Roman Catholic Church, is a bit premature and inaccurate. Namely, because:

• • a. The conversation is opened to all to participate.
• • b. Other users of CD were not denied or deprived of sharing.
• • b. The conversation is not over. It's ongoing. Welcome aboard! You are free to do and share statistical data comparing of child sex-crimes incidents, monies paid out, convictions, actions of church leaders, etc., by denominations.
• • c. I am still in search for practical solutions and safeguards in moving forward.
• • e. This is the denomination with great sums and the wheels of justice are very slowly for too many boys and families.
• • f. I have a few solutions, but many more are needed. Re-read the news clip of the CC promised of a report.

The truth is painful, crimes are repeated, lives are shattered, the deeds are nasty, families are in fear, and too many people (CC administrators and victims) have been silent for too long. Join the conversation and be a part of the solution, but you don't need me to tell you. This is an opened forum. You, Bill, have the opportunity to contribute. CM

Bill_Coley

@C_M_ said:
Thanks for your input. Your "simple point" is well taken, a truth not lost on me. Let me respond to a concern you seem to be mostly concern beyond the fact that "child sexual abuse/assault takes place in the Protestant churches ALSO."

Thanks.

What appears to be a "narrow scope" is really broader than you perceive:
1. The Catholic Churches' problem is long-standing and systemic.

The problem is long-standing and systemic in Protestant churches, too.

2. The Catholic Church is the largest Christian body in the world.

The total numbers of Protestants and Catholics in the world are about the same.

3. It was recently in the news about a television personality priest (see clip above).

Granted.

4. Positions of trust that is endangering the lives of children and families.

Granted, regardless of the identity of the Christian community in which the endangerment arises.

5. No other church organization is given the privilege to investigate itself of child sex crimes. There are concerns about fairness and the stench of being above the law.

Specific to the news clip in your OP, the alleged sexual assault therein reported occurred 47 years ago, and no other abuses have been reported against the suspended cardinal. Am I correct to believe that the statute of limitations on the crime the cardinal allegedly committed expired decades ago? If I am, then the Church seems to me to be the correct investigatory body.

6. A review of the OP and my subsequent posts, you will see that my concerns centered on the solution to the problem regardless of where the infraction took place.

My quick scan of your posts in this thread found no references to Protestant pastors or church leaders (save your latest response to me) and one or more references to the Catholic Church and/or its priesthood in nearly every one. It seems to me that your concerns have centered on the solution to the problem as it exists in the Catholic Church. WHICH IS OKAY!!!!!! I posted as I did only to note that the problem exists in Protestant churches as well.

7. What appears to be a "narrow scope" of my "posts' scorn" were my responses to Dave's of his personal experiences and observations of some children's behavior in relating to priests.

You are of course free to respond as you choose.

8. I think your labeling of my posts, mainly with Dave, as "almost exclusively on the incidence of child sexual abu`se/assault that has taken place in the Roman Catholic Church, is a bit premature and inaccurate. Namely, because:

• • a. The conversation is opened to all to participate.
• • b. Other users of CD were not denied or deprived of sharing.
• • b. The conversation is not over. It's ongoing. Welcome aboard! You are free to do and share statistical data comparing of child sex-crimes incidents, monies paid out, convictions, actions of church leaders, etc., by denominations.
• • c. I am still in search for practical solutions and safeguards in moving forward.
• • e. This is the denomination with great sums and the wheels of justice are very slowly for too many boys and families.
• • f. I have a few solutions, but many more are needed. Re-read the news clip of the CC promised of a report.

The truth is painful, crimes are repeated, lives are shattered, the deeds are nasty, families are in fear, and too many people (CC administrators and victims) have been silent for too long. Join the conversation and be a part of the solution, but you don't need me to tell you. This is an opened forum. You, Bill, have the opportunity to contribute. CM

Indeed I do.

I share your concern for the issue writ large. But I also offer an expanded vision of the settings in which the issue arises in the Church.

Dave_L

@Bill_Coley said:
@Dave_L and @C_M_ ,

In your posts in this thread, you two have focused almost exclusively on the incidence of child sexual abuse/assault that has taken place in the Roman Catholic Church. While the evil in those cases is obvious, the narrow scope of your posts' scorn might lead casual readers to believe child sexual abuse in the Church is principally a Catholic problem, when in fact it is not.

In 2007, at least, the three insurance companies that provided most of the coverage to Protestant churches reported a total of 260 cases of alleged child sexual abuse per year. That number is certainly comparable to the 228 cases/year reported by the Catholic Church (13,000 since 1950).

Are there unreported cases in the Catholic Church? No doubt. In Protestant churches, too.

My simple point here is that child sexual abuse is a problem for the WHOLE of the Church, not just the Roman Catholic piece of the church. Pastors and youth leaders in Protestant churches ALSO commit horrific acts against children.

I also mention school teachers, my time spent as a house parent, and another minister I know personally. Since CM posted the question referring to the Catholics, It is more on topic to address the Catholic problem, making the other examples secondary.

C Mc

@Bill_Coley said:

@C_M_ said:

What appears to be a "narrow scope" is really broader than you perceive:
1. The Catholic Churches' problem is long-standing and systemic.

The problem is long-standing and systemic in Protestant churches, too.

You have the right to provide factual data to verify such claims-- All Christian Churches' child sex-crimes vs- the Catholic Churches'. You will be grossly surprised!

2. The Catholic Church is the largest Christian body in the world.

The total numbers of Protestants and Catholics in the world are about the same.

Again, you may choose to provide factual data. What is a given, on its face, is that all Protestant Churches are not under one spiritual leader (a Pope) versus some 2.3 billion Catholics. We're talking authority, oversight, and control. This can lead to the Leader(s)' knowledge to sex-crimes, payoffs, and reassignments for so long, for so many, in so many places.

4. Positions of trust that is endangering the lives of children and families.

Granted, regardless of the identity of the Christian community in which the endangerment arises.

This is a given. No one says or sought to say otherwise. Regardless, it doesn't absorb the Catholic Churches of its pattern of behavior and crimes. It's like asking my son why he didn't do well on a certain test? His response, everyone or most everybody failed. "That dog won't hunt" or "that bucket won't hold water.

5. No other church organization is given the privilege to investigate itself of child sex crimes. There are concerns about fairness and the stench of being above the law.

Specific to the news clip in your OP, the alleged sexual assault therein reported occurred 47 years ago, and no other abuses have been reported against the suspended cardinal.

The jury is still out. It's like chad (the squirrel) in the Planters Peanuts Commercial and the missing inventory, on the assembly line. I would be more comfortable with an independent investigation. The current method is not the best way to reassure and restore trust with families and communities.

Besides, does it matters how along? Lives have been destroyed. Tell the victims of the sexual assaults, it "occurred 47 years ago." Come on, Bill, where are your heart and your keen sense of justice on this matter?

Am I correct to believe that the statute of limitations on the crime the cardinal allegedly committed expired decades ago? If I am, then the Church seems to me to be the correct investigatory body.

Who cares? Answer: The victims and justice! Besides, how, so soon, have you forgotten about Roy Moore of Alabama? The law is a bastard guardian when it comes to the victim's pain and distrust, regardless of years.

6. A review of the OP and my subsequent posts, you will see that my concerns centered on the solution to the problem regardless of where the infraction took place.

My quick scan of your posts in this thread found no references to Protestant pastors or church leaders (save your latest response to me) and one or more references to the Catholic Church and/or its priesthood in nearly every one. It seems to me that your concerns have centered on the solution to the problem as it exists in the Catholic Church. WHICH IS OKAY!!!!!! I posted as I did only to note that the problem exists in Protestant churches as well.

Bill,
1. Protestant Churches (with some sex-crimes) in my mind was a given. I live in the real world, regardless of location.
2. The Priest, in the OP, was current in the news.
3. Besides, you chimed in on an unfinished conversation.
4. The RCC isn't short of spokespeople or excuses. They need an independent sex-crime investigation-- no holding back. This is not in the works or promised.

7. What appears to be a "narrow scope" of my "posts' scorn" were my responses to Dave's of his personal experiences and observations of some children's behavior in relating to priests.

You are of course free to respond as you choose.

Then lighten up on what you seem to be trying to convey. That is, I am being biased, naive, and mean-spirited toward the RCC.

The truth is painful, crimes are repeated, lives are shattered, the deeds are nasty, families are in fear, and too many people (CC administrators and victims) have been silent for too long. Join the conversation and be a part of the solution, but you don't need me to tell you. This is an opened forum. You, Bill, have the opportunity to contribute. CM

Indeed I do.

I share your concern for the issue writ large. But I also offer an expanded vision of the settings in which the issue arises in the Church.

This is obvious. You are Bill. No one else is you. Regardless, I hope we don't go down rabbit holes or deviates from the OP.

"I share your concern for the issue writ large", I'm not clear about what you're saying here.

So say, so speak. CM

Dave_L

@Bill_Coley said:
@Dave_L and @C_M_ ,

In your posts in this thread, you two have focused almost exclusively on the incidence of child sexual abuse/assault that has taken place in the Roman Catholic Church. While the evil in those cases is obvious, the narrow scope of your posts' scorn might lead casual readers to believe child sexual abuse in the Church is principally a Catholic problem, when in fact it is not.

In 2007, at least, the three insurance companies that provided most of the coverage to Protestant churches reported a total of 260 cases of alleged child sexual abuse per year. That number is certainly comparable to the 228 cases/year reported by the Catholic Church (13,000 since 1950).

Are there unreported cases in the Catholic Church? No doubt. In Protestant churches, too.

My simple point here is that child sexual abuse is a problem for the WHOLE of the Church, not just the Roman Catholic piece of the church. Pastors and youth leaders in Protestant churches ALSO commit horrific acts against children.

I also mention school teachers and another minister I know personally. Since CM posted the question referring to the Catholics, It is more on topic to address the Catholic problem, making the other channels of perversion and child exploitation secondary.

Bill_Coley

@C_M_ said:
You have the right to provide factual data to verify such claims-- All Christian Churches' child sex-crimes vs- the Catholic Churches'. You will be grossly surprised!

It was my intention to provide such "factual data" when, in an earlier post, I wrote...

In 2007, at least, the three insurance companies that provided most of the coverage to Protestant churches reported a total of 260 cases of alleged child sexual abuse per year. That number is certainly comparable to the 228 cases/year reported by the Catholic Church (13,000 since 1950).

Are there unreported cases in the Catholic Church? No doubt. In Protestant churches, too.

My simple point here is that child sexual abuse is a problem for the WHOLE of the Church, not just the Roman Catholic piece of the church. Pastors and youth leaders in Protestant churches ALSO commit horrific acts against children.

Given the number of incidents per year for the two communities, statistically, the situation seems worse among Protestants than among Catholics. [260 cases/year among 900,000,000 Protestants produces a higher incidence rate per 100,000 members than do 228 cases/year among 1.3 billion Catholics.] OF COURSE, all sexual assault and abuse is evil, no matter its incidence rate!! My point is simply that the problem exists ACROSS THE CHURCH, among Protestants as well as Catholics.

The total numbers of Protestants and Catholics in the world are about the same.

Again, you may choose to provide factual data. What is a given, on its face, is that all Protestant Churches are not under one spiritual leader (a Pope) versus some 2.3 billion Catholics. We're talking authority, oversight, and control. This can lead to the Leader(s)' knowledge to sex-crimes, payoffs, and reassignments for so long, for so many, in so many places.

I misread the tables to which I referred as the basis of my previous claim. The number of Catholics in the world IS larger - by about 30% - than the number of Protestants (1.3 billion Catholics v. 900,000,000 Protestants). I am not, however, able to find statistics that backup your claim of 2.3 billion Catholics worldwide. Please provide a link.

However concentrated the leadership among Catholic and Protestant communions, the statistical fact is that the incidence of child abuse in Protestant churches is at least comparable to the incidence of abuse in Catholic churches. That was and remains my point.

4. Positions of trust that is endangering the lives of children and families.

Granted, regardless of the identity of the Christian community in which the endangerment arises.

This is a given. No one says or sought to say otherwise. Regardless, it doesn't absorb the Catholic Churches of its pattern of behavior and crimes. It's like asking my son why he didn't do well on a certain test? His response, everyone or most everybody failed. "That dog won't hunt" or "that bucket won't hold water.

The objective of my posts in this thread has been to identify the scope and breadth of the problem in the Body of Christ. The objective has NOT been to absolve any communion within the Body of its responsibility to govern and hold its leaders to the highest ethical standards. My bad, if what I posted suggested otherwise.

Specific to the news clip in your OP, the alleged sexual assault therein reported occurred 47 years ago, and no other abuses have been reported against the suspended cardinal.

The jury is still out. It's like chad (the squirrel) in the Planters Peanuts Commercial and the missing inventory, on the assembly line. I would be more comfortable with an independent investigation. The current method is not the best way to reassure and restore trust with families and communities.

I understand your point of view.

Besides, does it matters how along? Lives have been destroyed. Tell the victims of the sexual assaults, it "occurred 47 years ago." Come on, Bill, where are your heart and your keen sense of justice on this matter?

My heart is with those victimized by predators in the Body of Christ - Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, et al. My sense of justice acknowledges the fact that statutes of limitations provisions may prevent many perpetrators from being prosecuted for criminal violations.

Am I correct to believe that the statute of limitations on the crime the cardinal allegedly committed expired decades ago? If I am, then the Church seems to me to be the correct investigatory body.

Who cares? Answer: The victims and justice! Besides, how, so soon, have you forgotten about Roy Moore of Alabama? The law is a bastard guardian when it comes to the victim's pain and distrust, regardless of years.

I raised the statute of limitations deadline only to highlight the fact that after 47 years, no criminal prosecution is possible. So any "investigation" will have to come from other sources. I understand your call for independent inquiries, but my point had little to do with who conducts those probes other than that they won't be conducted by criminal prosecutors.

My quick scan of your posts in this thread found no references to Protestant pastors or church leaders (save your latest response to me) and one or more references to the Catholic Church and/or its priesthood in nearly every one. It seems to me that your concerns have centered on the solution to the problem as it exists in the Catholic Church. WHICH IS OKAY!!!!!! I posted as I did only to note that the problem exists in Protestant churches as well.

1. Protestant Churches (with some sex-crimes) in my mind was a given. I live in the real world, regardless of location.

That the presence of "sex crimes" in Protestant churches is "a given" for you was not clear to me from your posts in this thread, none of which referenced Protestant Churches, and almost all of which highlighted Catholic churches and/or their pastoral leadership. That's what prompted my post. NOT to diminish your passion for justice in Catholic church settings, but to remind all of us that the problem is a concern for ALL parts of the Body of Christ.

2. The Priest, in the OP, was current in the news.

True.

3. Besides, you chimed in on an unfinished conversation.

I didn't know there were forum rules/expectations/guidelines that govern posters' "chiming in" on "unfinished conversations." Is it your view that posters should not join ongoing exchanges between other posters? Do you have some time window in mind during which other posters may join an ongoing "conversation," but outside of which they must wait for those conversations to "finish"?

4. The RCC isn't short of spokespeople or excuses. They need an independent sex-crime investigation-- no holding back. This is not in the works or promised.

I respect your point of view. As I've said multiple times, my posts in this thread have had a very different focus.

You are of course free to respond as you choose.

Then lighten up on what you seem to be trying to convey. That is, I am being biased, naive, and mean-spirited toward the RCC.

Nothing in any of my posts has suggested that I think you're "being biased, naive, (or) mean-spirited toward the RCC." If you review my posts, I think you'll find that I've offered no assessment whatsoever of your spirit, intentions, or motivations. I've simply pointed out that the problem of the sexual assault of children is as prevalent in Protestant churches as it is in Catholic churches.

I share your concern for the issue writ large. But I also offer an expanded vision of the settings in which the issue arises in the Church.

This is obvious. You are Bill. No one else is you. Regardless, I hope we don't go down rabbit holes or deviates from the OP.

In this thread, we may disagree as to what constitutes a "rabbit" and the holes in which one travels.

---

I feel compelled to state yet again that I have NOT posted in this thread to diminish the reality and impact of any child's victimization at the hands of the Body of Christ. I've posted simply to point out that such victimization is a problem for the Body, not just for the Catholic portion of the Body.

C Mc

@Bill_Coley said:
I feel compelled to state yet again that I have NOT posted in this thread to diminish the reality and impact of any child's victimization at the hands of the Body of Christ. I've posted simply to point out that such victimization is a problem for the Body, not just for the Catholic portion of the Body.

Thanks, Bill, once again for your response. OK, this last point is clear. Thanks.

Given the number of incidents per year for the two communities, statistically, the situation seems worse among Protestants than among Catholics. [260 cases/year among 900,000,000 Protestants produces a higher incidence rate per 100,000 members than do 228 cases/year among 1.3 billion Catholics.] OF COURSE, all sexual assault and abuse is evil, no matter its incidence rate!! My point is simply that the problem exists ACROSS THE CHURCH, among Protestants as well as Catholics.

I said you will be surprised at the number of 260 cases/year for Protestants versus 228 for Catholics. It's surprising because of:

1. The numbers (if verifiable) are not too far apart.
2. Catholic Church (alone) had almost as many sex-crime incidents compare to all of the Protestant Churches. This is alarming!
3. The RCC's one leader (Pope), the cover-ups, the payouts, the reassignments, in so many places, and so many people and years making the Holy House "a cesspool of deviancy."
4. It continued so long, the statue of limitation may be unwelcome news for many who are still trying to heal and put their lives together.
5. Some of the victims, I am sure are in prison today for sex-crimes for what happened to by priests in the RCC. And to add insult to injury, the cover-ups. It has been said, that the cover-up becomes worst than the crime.

If I had the Pope's ear, I will encourage him to form a "Truth Commissions" in connection with law enforcement. People need to tell their stories and receive counseling (no Catholics) for all victims at the expenses of the RCC. This is minimal justice.

I am not, however, able to find statistics that backup your claim of 2.3 billion Catholics worldwide. Please provide a link.

I am more than willing to yield my numbers (2.3 billion) to your 1.3 billion Catholics until proven otherwise. There may have been a falling away. Given the past and present situation, who can blame members for leaving?

I didn't know there were forum rules/expectations/guidelines that govern posters' "chiming in" on "unfinished conversations."

Chiming in is just my word choice. No authoritative demands. No, there isn't "forum rules/expectations/guidelines that govern posters' "chiming in" on "unfinished conversations."' It was more or less, exchanges between Dave and myself. That's all I met by "chiming in".

Is it your view that posters should not join ongoing exchanges between other posters?

"Absolutely positively" not! Once again, see immediately above.

Do you have some time window in mind during which other posters may join an ongoing "conversation," but outside of which they must wait for those conversations to "finish"?

The short answer, no! Again, see above. However, it would be nice for posters to sensitive to a post address specifically to a user-- giving the addresses a chance to respond before others or another chime in. I know we are not all equally disciplined. This is not a demand or a rule I am trying to impose anyone or others. This is just a courtesy self-discipline one would practice. This is something I am working on for myself.

I am still opened for suggestions to stop, identify, and heal the many people who have been victimized by priests in the RCC. "Lord, listen to your children praying." CM

Bill_Coley

@C_M_ said:

I said you will be surprised at the number of 260 cases/year for Protestants versus 228 for Catholics. It's surprising because of:

1. The numbers (if verifiable) are not too far apart.

2. Catholic Church (alone) had almost as many sex-crime incidents compare to all of the Protestant Churches. This is alarming!

As for the numbers' accuracy, see the links I provided.

As for their not being far apart, I encourage you to revisit the statistical reality to which they testify:

• An average of 228 cases/year in the Catholic Church of 1.3 billion members translates into one case/year for every 5.7 million members, or 0.18 cases/100,000 members.
• While an average of 260 cases/year in Protestant churches that have a total membership of 900,000,000 members translates into one case for every 3.5 million members, or 0.29 case/100,000 members.
• That is, the incidence of cases in Protestant churches is more than 60% HIGHER than in Catholic Churches.

3. The RCC's one leader (Pope), the cover-ups, the payouts, the reassignments, in so many places, and so many people and years making the Holy House "a cesspool of deviancy."

In my view, your decision to call the "Holy House" a "cesspool of deviancy" signals at least a willingness to consider what in an earlier post you called bias and a mean-spirit toward the RCC. Your description certainly doesn't sound objective.

4. It continued so long, the statue of limitation may be unwelcome news for many who are still trying to heal and put their lives together.

The 47 year time frame I referenced referred to a single incident 47 years ago, and NOT to a series of events that "continued so long." I understand that OTHER events, by OTHER perpetrators certainly continued. But the 47 year time frame referred ONLY to the one single incident by the one priest/cardinal.

Statutes of limitations do NOT prohibit prosecution of crimes that occur within the allowed time period, but they do prohibit prosecution of crimes that happen prior to their allowed time period. For crimes of sexual assault of children, as THIS SITE demonstrates, the statute of limitations varies from state to state.

5. Some of the victims, I am sure are in prison today for sex-crimes for what happened to by priests in the RCC. And to add insult to injury, the cover-ups. It has been said, that the cover-up becomes worst than the crime.

If I had the Pope's ear, I will encourage him to form a "Truth Commissions" in connection with law enforcement. People need to tell their stories and receive counseling (no Catholics) for all victims at the expenses of the RCC. This is minimal justice.

I'm not involved in this thread to prosecute the RCC or Protestant churches for their record of handling claims of child sexual assault, so I offer no comment here.

I am not, however, able to find statistics that backup your claim of 2.3 billion Catholics worldwide. Please provide a link.

I am more than willing to yield my numbers (2.3 billion) to your 1.3 billion Catholics until proven otherwise. There may have been a falling away. Given the past and present situation, who can blame members for leaving?

See previous response.

Do you have some time window in mind during which other posters may join an ongoing "conversation," but outside of which they must wait for those conversations to "finish"?

The short answer, no! Again, see above. However, it would be nice for posters to sensitive to a post address specifically to a user-- giving the addresses a chance to respond before others or another chime in. I know we are not all equally disciplined. This is not a demand or a rule I am trying to impose anyone or others. This is just a courtesy self-discipline one would practice. This is something I am working on for myself.

Please note that I did NOT address a specific post from either you or Dave L. I addressed a trend I observed in the content of your posts writ large.

C Mc

@Bill_Coley said:

@C_M_ said:

3. The RCC's one leader (Pope), the cover-ups, the payouts, the reassignments, in so many places, and so many people and years making the Holy House "a cesspool of deviancy."

In my view, your decision to call the "Holy House" a "cesspool of deviancy" signals at least a willingness to consider what in an earlier post you called bias and a mean-spirit toward the RCC. Your description certainly doesn't sound objective.

Let's not get lost here. There is no meanness here. It's only so if you are willing to admit that you're unleashing your preconceived conclusion of my postings on this subject. However, to clarify why I used the phrase above is based on the following assumptions that most of the abuse took place by:

1. "Holy Men"-- priests/pastors.
2. "Holy Places"- - Seminaries/Churches/Rectors
3. "Holy Money"-- Tithes/offerings/donations, etc.
4. "Holy Assignments" -- Relocation of priests, Bishops, etc.
5. "Holy Authority" -- Knowledge of Cardinals/Archbishops/Pope

I hope you, Bill, appreciate the clarification, even if you don't accept the phrase-- "Holy House", a "cesspool of deviancy".

8. Some of the victims, I am sure are in prison today for sex-crimes for what happened to by priests in the RCC. And to add insult to injury, the cover-ups. It has been said, that the cover-up becomes worst than the crime.

If I had the Pope's ear, I will encourage him to form a "Truth Commissions" in connection with law enforcement. People need to tell their stories and receive counseling (no Catholics) for all victims at the expenses of the RCC. This is minimal justice.

I'm not involved in this thread to prosecute the RCC or Protestant churches for their record of handling claims of child sexual assault, so I offer no comment here.

This is not my purpose either. The laws of the land will prosecute those as the wheels of justice turns, albeit, ever so slowly. You seemed to missed my point completely here. I was more concerned about victims who were abused, went on to abuse and are in prison for their crimes. Many will chase their downward turn, back to the church/priests-abusers.

The search continues for answers to reassure families and communities. CM

C Mc

"Holy House: A cesspool of deviancy"

Bill,
Upon reflection of our exchanges, recently, on this subject, it demands we don't cheapen the tragedy by comparing sex-crimes data between the Protestants and the Catholics. It's a deviation and a detraction from the victims, the evil practices, and the seemingly the sin, shame, pain and the untold shattered lives.

As for my phrase above, it's mild compared to the cries of victims. It is relevant and accurate. This situation is can't and shouldn't be papered over with so-called acceptable phrases to go on with business as usual. For example: when a bridge is out, toxic spill, fallen rocks on the highway, a building on fire, rabid dog on the loose, or a serial rapist in the community--political correct language can't convey the full measure of the impending danger for potential new victims. There must be an appropriate sign or term to properly warn all-- to beware, avoid, or get out. It's no time for us to get hung-up or ashamed over a phrase. The repugnant deeds have been done under the guise of trust love, care, and counseling-- with black robes, candle lights, wine, etc. However, the real shame is it all continues in the shadows of rosaries, confessionals, and look of piety while granting prayers, confession, absolution--the first phase, in my view of the "cover-up". The molestation continues. The abused include boys and girls, some as young as 3 years old, with the majority between the ages of 11 and 14 [See source]. This enough to make God cry a river of tears. And here we are talking about the numbers and a phrase. Anyone with "a righteous indignation" would agree and embrace the term --"Holy House: A cesspool of deviancy"--until pedophilia pastors/priests are completely eradicated. Many have seen what I am seeing. Criticisms of church responses. CM

The full article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases#Films_and_documentaries

"While the church in the United States claims to have addressed the issue, some disagree. Mark Honigsbaum of The Guardian wrote in 2006 that, "despite the National Review Board's own estimates that there have been some 5,000 abusive priests in the US, to date 150 have been successfully prosecuted." Some critics of the church, such as Patrick Wall, attribute this to a lack of cooperation from the church. In California, for example, the archdiocese[clarification needed] has sought to block the disclosure of confidential counseling records on two priests, arguing that such action would violate their First Amendment right on religious protection.[239] Paul Lakeland claims Church leaders who enabled abuse were too frequently careless about their own accountability and the accountability of perpetrators.[240]

"In 2010, the BBC reported that the latest research by experts indicate that Catholic priests may be no more likely than others to abuse. However, a major cause of the scandal was the cover-ups and other alleged shortcomings in the way the church hierarchy has dealt with the abuses.[11] Particularly, the actions of Catholic bishops in responding to allegations of clerical abuse were harshly criticized.[241]

"In September 2010, Pope Benedict XVI lamented that the Roman Catholic Church had not been vigilant enough or quick enough in responding to the problem of sexual abuse by Catholic clergy.[242] Pope Benedict laicized 400 priests for abuses in two years of his papacy.[4] A representative of Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP), a group representing abuse victims, criticized the pope's remarks as "disingenuous" because, in her opinion, the church had in fact been "prompt and vigilant" in concealing the scandal.[242] After Benedict's resignation in 2013, he was criticized by SNAP for allegedly protecting the church's reputation "over the safety of children." Representatives from the Center for Constitutional Rights (at the time engaged in an International Criminal Court case against Pope Benedict in which they were acting for SNAP), alleged that Pope Benedict had been directly involved in covering up some of the crimes".[243]

SOURCES:

1. "Hundreds of priests shuffled worldwide, despite abuse allegations". USA Today. Associated Press. 20 June 2004.

2. Stephens, Scott (27 May 2011). "Catholic sexual abuse study greeted with incurious contempt". ABC Religion and Ethics. Retrieved 23 July 2012.

3. Lattin, Don (17 July 1998). "$30 Million Awarded Men Molested by `Family Priest' / 3 bishops accused of Stockton coverup". San Francisco Chronicle. Retrieved 23 July 2012. Attorney Jeff Anderson said the Howard brothers were repeatedly molested between 1978 and 1991, from age 3 to 13. Reverend Oliver O'Grady later confessed to the abuse of many other children. The documentary Deliver Us from Evil explored his story and the cover-up by Diocesan officials.

4. Bush R. & Wardell H.S. 1900, Stoke Industrial School, Nelson (Report of Royal Commission On, Together With Correspondence, Evidence, and Appendix) Government Printer; Wellington, 8.

5. Honigsbaum, Mark (4 May 2006). "'Everywhere I turned, I ran into sexual abuse'". The Guardian. London. Retrieved 1 April 2010.

6. Lewis, Aidan (4 May 2010). "Looking behind the Catholic sex abuse scandal". BBC News. Retrieved 16 June 2015.

7. "Accountability, Credibility and Authority" (PDF). Votf.org. Retrieved 29 October 2017.

8. Marziali, Carl (18 July 2003). Interview with former priest and scandal "fixer" Patrick Wall "This American Life."

9. a b "Pope addresses sex abuse scandal as he starts visit to Britain". CNN. 17 September 2010. Retrieved 17 September 2010.

10. McVeigh, Karen. (11 February 2013). "Pope Benedict resigns: sex abuse survivors hope move eases prosecution", The Guardian, London. Retrieved 14 February 2013.

The cries from prisons, homes, hearts and broken lives are reverberating-- help! CM

Bill_Coley

@C_M_ said:

"Holy House: A cesspool of deviancy"

Upon reflection of our exchanges, recently, on this subject, it demands we don't cheapen the tragedy by comparing sex-crimes data between the Protestants and the Catholics. It's a deviation and a detraction from the victims, the evil practices, and the seemingly the sin, shame, pain and the untold shattered lives.

As for my phrase above, it's mild compared to the cries of victims. It is relevant and accurate. This situation is can't and shouldn't be papered over with so-called acceptable phrases to go on with business as usual. For example: when a bridge is out, toxic spill, fallen rocks on the highway, a building on fire, rabid dog on the loose, or a serial rapist in the community--political correct language can't convey the full measure of the impending danger for potential new victims. There must be an appropriate sign or term to properly warn all-- to beware, avoid, or get out. It's no time for us to get hung-up or ashamed over a phrase. The repugnant deeds have been done under the guise of trust love, care, and counseling-- with black robes, candle lights, wine, etc. However, the real shame is it all continues in the shadows of rosaries, confessionals, and look of piety while granting prayers, confession, absolution--the first phase, in my view of the "cover-up". The molestation continues. The abused include boys and girls, some as young as 3 years old, with the majority between the ages of 11 and 14 [See source]. This enough to make God cry a river of tears. And here we are talking about the numbers and a phrase. Anyone with "a righteous indignation" would agree and embrace the term --"Holy House: A cesspool of deviancy"--until pedophilia pastors/priests are completely eradicated. Many have seen what I am seeing. Criticisms of church responses. CM

As I've tried to make clear in my posts in our exchange, CM, I'm not arguing with you about the severity of the impact on its victims of acts of sexual assault/abuse committed by religious leaders. Nor am I engaged in this exchange to prosecute Protestant and Catholic church leaders who commit such acts.

I fully and freely grant that sexual abuse/assault has terrible consequences on its victims, and that perpetrators should be punished to the full extent of the law. Period. Full stop.... But I also fully and freely point out that those simply are not the concerns of my posts in our exchange.

Your concern in your most recent post is that we not "cheapen the tragedy by comparing sex-crimes data between the Protestants and the Catholics." In keeping with the sole reason with which I entered our exchange I ask you this: Do you "cheapen the tragedy" of victims of assault/abuse committed by Protestant church leaders when in post after post after post you choose not to mention them or the church leaders responsible for their victimization, and instead focus all but exclusively on victims of abuse/assault experienced in Catholic churches?

Given your view of the influence of "righteous indignation" on these matters, wouldn't you say that anyone with such indignation would give equal time/status to ALL victims of sexual assault/abuse in the Body of Christ? Wouldn't a righteously indignant observer of these matters express the same amount of alarm and outrage - perhaps politically incorrect alarm and outrage! - for victims in Protestant churches as he or she does for victims in Catholic churches? Does your many posts' all-but-silence on Protestant church victims - who are created at a rate HIGHER than in Catholic churches - reflect the "righteous indignation" to which you call attention?

---

And as for your phrase "cesspool of deviancy," I point out that I contended ONLY that to me it doesn't sound "objective." (in a previous post, you seemed to reject suggestions that you are "biased" on this issue) I'm not in this exchange to create a joint statement on the nature or severity of abuse/assault in the Body of Christ. CLEARLY, the issue has more urgency for you than it does for me, AND THAT'S PERFECTLY OKAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I remarked ONLY about the objectivity of your phrase, and did so only because I thought YOU had asserted your personal objectivity in these matters. I did NOT remark about your phrase's accuracy.

C Mc

@Bill_Coley said:

@C_M_ said:

"Holy House: A cesspool of deviancy"

"... Do you "cheapen the tragedy" of victims of assault/abuse committed by Protestant church leaders when in post after post after post you choose not to mention them or the church leaders responsible for their victimization, and instead focus all but exclusively on victims of abuse/assault experienced in Catholic churches"?

Absolutely, Not!

Bill, see my old posts below:

C_M_ Posts: 1,218 of July 1 -- @Dave_L said: I too believe this is wrong, but we are talking about placing blame where it belongs, in an effort to stop it.
CM said: If you [are] as serious, as stated, may I suggest you look at the institution (Catholic Church) and various community societies. What is their level of toleration? CM

1. Notice, I said, "and various community societies" and their level of toleration.
2. Also... please note...

CM said: What appears to be a "narrow scope" is really broader than you perceive:
a). The Catholic Churches' problem is long-standing and systemic.
b). The Catholic Church is the largest Christian body in the world.

@Bill_Coley said: Given your view of the influence of "righteous indignation" on these matters, wouldn't you say that anyone with such indignation would give equal time/status to ALL victims of sexual assault/abuse in the Body of Christ?

This is somewhat nonsensical if not, unfair.

Wouldn't a righteously indignant observer of these matters express the same amount of alarm and outrage - perhaps politically incorrect alarm and outrage! - for victims in Protestant churches as he or she does for victims in Catholic churches? Does your many posts' all-but-silence on Protestant church victims - who are created at a rate HIGHER than in Catholic churches - reflect the "righteous indignation" to which you call attention?

Again, No! Your insisting on a comparison of the two major division cheapens the severity of the systemic situation. It's the deeds over the numbers. The numbers just codify the gross behavior of those who supposed to know better.

@Bill_Coley said: And as for your phrase "cesspool of deviancy," I point out that I contended ONLY that to me it doesn't sound "objective." (in a previous post, you seemed to reject suggestions that you are "biased" on this issue) I'm not in this exchange to create a joint statement on the nature or severity of abuse/assault in the Body of Christ.

One wonders why? Although you're not required, I haven't demanded or ask for such. Do you have some affiliation or loyalty to one of the offending groups (Protestants or Catholics)? I guess the severity, number, and the level of compassion in your heart will guide you.

3. If I seem to use one major religious division over the other, don't hold it against me. If you must, charge it to my head and not to my heart. In my view, the RCC exemplifies the overall child-sex abuse situation. Mainly, for the following reasons:

• Its governance structure.
• Vast sums (holdings) and payoff settlements.
• The problem is ongoing.
• Self-investigatory with little or no real justice or solution to stop the molesting and raping of children. Just talk excuses, and kicking the can down the child-sex crime road.
• More children are at risk of being raped or molested in the Roman Catholic Churches, looking forward, than in the Protestant Churches. This simply because it has the largest Parochial School System in the world, with the Adventist System second. Given the RCC has not fully identified, rejected, weed out pedophile priests, a large swathe of children are in danger.

So, it's not about being emotional, meanness or being self-righteous. It's for the life of our children. It's about safety, health, wholeness, protection, removal, accountability, healing, and justice! Anything short of this is to certify the RCC a license to molest.

@Bill_Coley said: CLEARLY, the issue has more urgency for you than it does for me, AND THAT'S PERFECTLY OKAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...

With an internal look into your heart, you may be right. If so, I don't know why. I think all fair-minded, minister, father, children-loving, clear-eyed, sober-thinker, would be equally concerned as I am. The revulsion of the deeds and numbers, alone, is enough to arouse any man to anger, action, and a bold denunciation. God protect your children! CM

Bill_Coley

@C_M_ said:

"... Do you "cheapen the tragedy" of victims of assault/abuse committed by Protestant church leaders when in post after post after post you choose not to mention them or the church leaders responsible for their victimization, and instead focus all but exclusively on victims of abuse/assault experienced in Catholic churches"?

Absolutely, Not!

Bill, see my old posts below:

C_M_ Posts: 1,218 of July 1 -- @Dave_L said: I too believe this is wrong, but we are talking about placing blame where it belongs, in an effort to stop it.
CM said: If you [are] as serious, as stated, may I suggest you look at the institution (Catholic Church) and various community societies. What is their level of toleration?

In response to my contention that in your posts you chose not to mention victims of assaults/abuse committed by "Protestant church leaders," you quote a post in which you referenced "various community societies. In its context, my reading of that phrase was that by "community societies" you meant to refer to groups such as the Knights of Columbus, a community-based Catholic charitable organization. But now you seem to be telling us that for you, "community societies" refers to - or at least includes - Protestant Churches. I'm surprised... and not at all convinced. In my view, the truth remains that you haven't mentioned victims of Protestant church leaders.

1. Notice, I said, "and various community societies" and their level of toleration.
2. Also... please note...

CM said: What appears to be a "narrow scope" is really broader than you perceive:
a). The Catholic Churches' problem is long-standing and systemic.
b). The Catholic Church is the largest Christian body in the world.

Broader still would be focus that included victims of BOTH Catholic church leaders AND Protestant church leaders, especially, as I have pointed out on multiple occasions, the incidence of abuse/assault is HIGHER in Protestant churches than in Catholic churches. Why not put first focus where the most cases arise?

A small town has one fire truck, but two fires. In one, one residential building is on fire. In the other fire, three residential buildings are on fire. Where's the city going to send its one fire truck? I bet they send it to the site of the three buildings ablaze. Protestant churches produce more assault/abuse victims than Catholic churches; in my view, that means they deserve more than passing mention as "community societies."

@Bill_Coley said: Given your view of the influence of "righteous indignation" on these matters, wouldn't you say that anyone with such indignation would give equal time/status to ALL victims of sexual assault/abuse in the Body of Christ?

This is somewhat nonsensical if not, unfair.

It's not clear to me what you mean, or why my inference about "righteous indignation" is "nonsensical, if not unfair."

Wouldn't a righteously indignant observer of these matters express the same amount of alarm and outrage - perhaps politically incorrect alarm and outrage! - for victims in Protestant churches as he or she does for victims in Catholic churches? Does your many posts' all-but-silence on Protestant church victims - who are created at a rate HIGHER than in Catholic churches - reflect the "righteous indignation" to which you call attention?

Again, No! Your insisting on a comparison of the two major division cheapens the severity of the systemic situation. It's the deeds over the numbers. The numbers just codify the gross behavior of those who supposed to know better.

[Am I correct to assume you mean the numbers "quantify" the behavior?]

In my view, the "system" in which abuse occurs is VERY important because it reports that system's need for dramatic change. Such systems are NOT, however, nearly as important as is the abuse/assault experienced by kids. Hence, I continue to believe victims of Protestant church leader abuse are as deserving of our attention as as victims of Catholic church leader abuse.

@Bill_Coley said: And as for your phrase "cesspool of deviancy," I point out that I contended ONLY that to me it doesn't sound "objective."

One wonders why? Although you're not required, I haven't demanded or ask for such. Do you have some affiliation or loyalty to one of the offending groups (Protestants or Catholics)? I guess the severity, number, and the level of compassion in your heart will guide you.

You didn't ask for it. You didn't even raise the possibility. And my focus was nothing more than the objectivity of your phrase. Sounds like a strong defense of the rationale for my comment.

3. If I seem to use one major religious division over the other, don't hold it against me.

I hold nothing against you. I simply contend that the issue of child sexual assault/abuse in the Body of Christ is larger than the role played by any single component of the Body of Christ.

If you must, charge it to my head and not to my heart. In my view, the RCC exemplifies the overall child-sex abuse situation. Mainly, for the following reasons:

In my view, an assessment such as "a cesspool of deviancy" is more from the heart than the head.

• Its governance structure.
• Vast sums (holdings) and payoff settlements.
• The problem is ongoing.
• Self-investigatory with little or no real justice or solution to stop the molesting and raping of children. Just talk excuses, and kicking the can down the child-sex crime road.
• More children are at risk of being raped or molested in the Roman Catholic Churches, looking forward, than in the Protestant Churches. This simply because it has the largest Parochial School System in the world, with the Adventist System second. Given the RCC has not fully identified, rejected, weed out pedophile priests, a large swathe of children are in danger.

Which matters more to you, CM: That more children are "at risk" in the Catholic Church, or that more children are actually harmed in Protestant churches?

That you have very powerful issues with the RCC is obvious, CM - and I respect the passion with which you approach your issues. My ONLY reason for posting in this thread was to remind you and Dave that there are at least as many victims in Protestant churches, and those victims deserve attention too.

So, it's not about being emotional, meanness or being self-righteous. It's for the life of our children. It's about safety, health, wholeness, protection, removal, accountability, healing, and justice! Anything short of this is to certify the RCC a license to molest.

My reason for posting in this thread was to remind you that the "safety, health, wholeness, protection... healing, and justice (for)" children of Protestant churches is as important an issue as it it for children of Catholic churches.

@Bill_Coley said: CLEARLY, the issue has more urgency for you than it does for me, AND THAT'S PERFECTLY OKAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...

With an internal look into your heart, you may be right. If so, I don't know why. I think all fair-minded, minister, father, children-loving, clear-eyed, sober-thinker, would be equally concerned as I am. The revulsion of the deeds and numbers, alone, is enough to arouse any man to anger, action, and a bold denunciation. God protect your children! CM

In my view, ANY act of child abuse/molestation/assault committed by ANY church leader of ANY part of the Body of Christ should "arouse any (one) to anger, action, and a bold denunciation." Do you agree?

C Mc

@Bill_Coley said:

"...In its context, my reading of that phrase was that by "community societies" you meant to refer to groups such as the Knights of Columbus, a community-based Catholic charitable organization.

No, Bill, you're not in my head. No, I didn't mean "to refer to groups such as the Knights of Columbus". It was nowhere in my head at the time of the writing. Are you trying to suggest or hint that "The Knights of Columbus" have some history of child-sex crimes, which I am not aware?

But now you seem to be telling us that for you, "community societies" refers to - or at least includes - Protestant Churches.

"Community societies" were Protestant Churches in my original post. This is what was meant, period; not "refers to - or at least includes."

I'm surprised... and not at all convinced. In my view, the truth remains that you haven't mentioned victims of Protestant church leaders.

No, this is a strawman of your making. Autoconvince, your unbelieve, of your belief. This is a rabbit hole your making. I am not going down it, at any part, no time. Done!

Broader still would be focus that included victims of BOTH Catholic church leaders AND Protestant church leaders, especially, as I have pointed out on multiple occasions, the incidence of abuse/assault is HIGHER in Protestant churches than in Catholic churches. Why not put first focus where the most cases arise?

Bill, you repeat this like a Buddist Mantra, in this thread. Are you trying to convince yourself of something or to avoid the painful truth of an ugly reality?

Also, Bill, when you're the engineer on your train, choose your track and the speed, when you're not, enjoy the rise. See below for better understanding about this thread.

"...Protestant churches produce more assault/abuse victims than Catholic churches; in my view, that means they deserve more than passing mention as "community societies."

You really have a burden to expose, if possible to depose Protestant churches over what you believe produces more assault/abuse victims. This thing seems to be eating you from the inside out. You have your work cut out for you. Go for it.

CM said: The numbers just codify the gross behavior of those who supposed to know better.
Bill said: [Am I correct to assume you mean the numbers "quantify" the behavior?]

No, I meant what I said, "codify". It means-- "to arrange (laws or rules) into a systematic code." **Synonyms: Systematize, systemize, organize, arrange, order, structure**."

Bill said: Hence, I continue to believe victims of Protestant church leader abuse are as deserving of our attention as as victims of Catholic church leader abuse.

You are free to do this as you please or in another post. I don't want to go down that road as you clearly have a burden to do. I am not ruling out misdeeds in other churches, but I am following up news report in the OP.

Which matters more to you, CM: That more children are "at risk" in the Catholic Church, or that more children are actually harmed in Protestant churches?

Bill said: That you have very powerful issues with the RCC is obvious, CM - and I respect the passion with which you approach your issues.

This is not about me. It's about the vulnerable children, families, and incarcerated adults who were molested in RCC schools and churches as a child. This is hardcore, reported verifiable facts, deeds, convictions, payouts to cover up. I am a voice crying out for all children under this system.

My ONLY reason for posting in this thread was to remind you and Dave that there are at least as many victims in Protestant churches, and those victims deserve attention too.

Perhaps, Dave and you may have a point. Nevertheless, I am dealing with one cause at a time, if you don't mind. However, I repeat, there is nothing keep you from being that voice for the "many victims in Protestant churches" since "those victims deserve attention too".

My reason for posting in this thread was to remind you that the "safety, health, wholeness, protection... healing, and justice (for)" children of Protestant churches is as important an issue as it it for children of Catholic churches.

Bill, I was never obvious to the reality to begin. What gave you that impression? Let me be clear, this thread was started from a news article/clip of a certain Cardinal. Looking at him in the context of the church he served, awaken the cry for the children, for an end systemic abuse of children and justice for the families. Thanks, for the reminder, just the same.

I will look for your work on the other side of this issue. You may do a better job than what I am doing here. So be it. CM

Bill_Coley

@C_M_ said:

@Bill_Coley said:

"...In its context, my reading of that phrase was that by "community societies" you meant to refer to groups such as the Knights of Columbus, a community-based Catholic charitable organization.

No, Bill, you're not in my head. No, I didn't mean "to refer to groups such as the Knights of Columbus". It was nowhere in my head at the time of the writing. Are you trying to suggest or hint that "The Knights of Columbus" have some history of child-sex crimes, which I am not aware?

But now you seem to be telling us that for you, "community societies" refers to - or at least includes - Protestant Churches.

"Community societies" were Protestant Churches in my original post. This is what was meant, period; not "refers to - or at least includes."

I'm surprised... and not at all convinced. In my view, the truth remains that you haven't mentioned victims of Protestant church leaders.

No, this is a strawman of your making. Autoconvince, your unbelieve, of your belief. This is a rabbit hole your making. I am not going down it, at any part, no time. Done!

Broader still would be focus that included victims of BOTH Catholic church leaders AND Protestant church leaders, especially, as I have pointed out on multiple occasions, the incidence of abuse/assault is HIGHER in Protestant churches than in Catholic churches. Why not put first focus where the most cases arise?

Bill, you repeat this like a Buddist Mantra, in this thread. Are you trying to convince yourself of something or to avoid the painful truth of an ugly reality?

Also, Bill, when you're the engineer on your train, choose your track and the speed, when you're not, enjoy the rise. See below for better understanding about this thread.

"...Protestant churches produce more assault/abuse victims than Catholic churches; in my view, that means they deserve more than passing mention as "community societies."

You really have a burden to expose, if possible to depose Protestant churches over what you believe produces more assault/abuse victims. This thing seems to be eating you from the inside out. You have your work cut out for you. Go for it.

CM said: The numbers just codify the gross behavior of those who supposed to know better.
Bill said: [Am I correct to assume you mean the numbers "quantify" the behavior?]

No, I meant what I said, "codify". It means-- "to arrange (laws or rules) into a systematic code." **Synonyms: Systematize, systemize, organize, arrange, order, structure**."

Bill said: Hence, I continue to believe victims of Protestant church leader abuse are as deserving of our attention as as victims of Catholic church leader abuse.

You are free to do this as you please or in another post. I don't want to go down that road as you clearly have a burden to do. I am not ruling out misdeeds in other churches, but I am following up news report in the OP.

Which matters more to you, CM: That more children are "at risk" in the Catholic Church, or that more children are actually harmed in Protestant churches?

Bill said: That you have very powerful issues with the RCC is obvious, CM - and I respect the passion with which you approach your issues.

This is not about me. It's about the vulnerable children, families, and incarcerated adults who were molested in RCC schools and churches as a child. This is hardcore, reported verifiable facts, deeds, convictions, payouts to cover up. I am a voice crying out for all children under this system.

My ONLY reason for posting in this thread was to remind you and Dave that there are at least as many victims in Protestant churches, and those victims deserve attention too.

Perhaps, Dave and you may have a point. Nevertheless, I am dealing with one cause at a time, if you don't mind. However, I repeat, there is nothing keep you from being that voice for the "many victims in Protestant churches" since "those victims deserve attention too".

My reason for posting in this thread was to remind you that the "safety, health, wholeness, protection... healing, and justice (for)" children of Protestant churches is as important an issue as it it for children of Catholic churches.

Bill, I was never obvious to the reality to begin. What gave you that impression? Let me be clear, this thread was started from a news article/clip of a certain Cardinal. Looking at him in the context of the church he served, awaken the cry for the children, for an end systemic abuse of children and justice for the families. Thanks, for the reminder, just the same.

I will look for your work on the other side of this issue. You may do a better job than what I am doing here. So be it. CM

I think our respective posts in this exchange, CM, including their uses of bold-face print, have made themselves and the claims of their posters clear. Hence, for me, it's time to bow out.

One closing declaration: In my posts, I value clarity of message and intention. I make no use of disguised or concealed "burden(s)" "painful truth(s)" or "ugly realit(ies)." I'm sure you say the same thing about your posts.

C Mc

@Bill_Coley said:

I think our respective posts in this exchange, CM, including their uses of bold-face print, have made themselves and the claims of their posters clear. Hence, for me, it's time to bow out.

One closing declaration: In my posts, I value clarity of message and intention. I make no use of disguised or concealed "burden(s)" "painful truth(s)" or "ugly realit(ies)." I'm sure you say the same thing about your posts.

Bill, my usage of bolding was to help me distinguish the old texts from the new in a long post. Bolding may have other meanings, but they are not my intent.

As for "time to bow out", this is and has always been your option and call to make. I hope you will pursue your passion and burden to highlight the other side of this issue here. It should be an interesting read and balance to all CD-Readers. I will stay tuned for your writing around the forums. CM

C Mc

In context:

Theodore Edgar McCarrick (born July 7, 1930) is an American Cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church. He served as Archbishop of Washington from 2001 to 2006, and was elevated to the cardinalate in 2001.

During this time, he helped found the Cardinal's Committee for Education and the Inner City Scholarship Fund, which promotes the education of the poor, particularly among minorities.

He was private secretary to Cardinal Terence Cooke from 1971 to 1977.

On May 24, 1977, McCarrick was appointed Auxiliary Bishop of New York and Titular Bishop of Rusibisir by Pope Paul VI. He received his episcopal consecration on the following June 29 from Cardinal Cooke, with Archbishop John Maguire and Bishop Patrick Ahern serving as co-consecrators. He selected as his episcopal motto: "Come Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22:20).

As I see it, was there no internal investigation before an elevation or promotion? His criminal acts in context were close to his misdeeds and promotions. This is sad and dangerous for all children and society.

Accusations of sexual abuse and removal from public ministry.

On June 20, 2018, McCarrick was removed from public ministry by The Holy See after a review board of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New York found "credible and substantiated" an allegation that he sexually abused a 16-year-old altar boy while a priest in New York. Patrick Noaker, the attorney for the anonymous complainant, alleged two incidents at St. Patrick's Cathedral, one in 1971 and the other in 1972. Noaker stated that when measuring the teen for a cassock, McCarrick "unzipped [the boy's] pants and put his hands in the boy's pants."

McCarrick stated that he was innocent of these charges:

• "I have absolutely no recollection of this reported abuse, and believe in my innocence." He also stated, "In obedience I accept the decision of The Holy See, that I no longer exercise any public ministry."

McCarrick violated the laws of the land and God's commands and declare, "In obedience I accept the decision of The Holy See, that I no longer exercise any public ministry is equivalent to Judas' confession in throwing down the thirty pieces of silver saying, "I have betrayed innocent blood."

Also on June 20, 2018, Cardinal Joseph W. Tobin of Newark revealed that during McCarrick's ministry in New Jersey, there had been accusations of sexual misconduct with three adults, and that two of the allegations had resulted in financial settlements with the complainants.

Richard Sipe had published excerpts from settlement documents in 2010. Others reported that in 2012 The New York Times Magazine scheduled but never published a story detailing McCarrick's abuse of adult seminarians, based on court documents of the legal settlements between McCarrick and former seminarians, and an interview with one of the victims.

In my view, the above articles make clear of denial, cover-up, and the incapability of the RCC to investigate itself. How can McCarrick have not recall when the accusations are multiple and there were payouts?

Any other institution, with a known pattern for molesting children, would be shut down and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Is the RCC to big or too "Holy" for similar treatment? Who's protecting the children? Is there any hope for them? CM

SOURCES:

1. Barry, Dan (August 30, 2009). "Kennedy Mourners Memorialize 'Soul of the Democratic Party'". The New York Times. Retrieved June 20, 2018.
2. "Cardinal Theodore McCarrick Punished Over Abuse Finding". New York Times. Associated Press. June 20, 2018. Retrieved June 20, 2018.
3. Sisak, Michael R. (June 20, 2018). "Cardinal Theodore McCarrick punished over abuse finding". Associated Press. Retrieved June 20, 2018.
4. Burke, Daniel (June 20, 2018). "Cardinal removed from public ministry after sex abuse allegation". CNN. Retrieved June 20, 2018.
5. Zauzmer, Julie; Boorstein, Michelle; Hedgpeth, Dana (June 20, 2018). "Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, former archbishop of Washington, has been removed from ministry after a sex abuse allegation". The Washington Post. Retrieved June 20, 2018.
6. "Statements Regarding Cardinal Theodore McCarrick". Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Washington. Retrieved June 25, 2018.
7. Heyboer, Kelly; Sherman, Ted (June 20, 2018). "Allegations of Sexual abuse and settlements: What we know about Cardinal McCarrick's dramatic downfall". NJ Advance Media. Retrieved June 20, 2018. The dates and of the settlements were not disclosed. Church officials also did not say if the settlements involved payments to the victims.
8. "Cardinal McCarrick suspended from public ministry after abuse allegations". America. June 20, 2018. Retrieved June 21, 2018.
9. "The Cardinal McCarrick Syndrome". Richard Sipe: Priests, Celibacy, and Sexuality. May 12, 2010. Retrieved June 25, 2018.
10. Julia Duin (June 21, 2018). "The scandal of Cardinal Theodore McCarrick and why no major media outed him". GetReligion. Retrieved June 22, 2018.
11. Rod Dreher (June 20, 2018). "Cardinal McCarrick: Everybody Knew". The American Conservative. Retrieved June 22, 2018.

C Mc

Bombshell New York Times piece reveals sordid details of Cardinal McCarrick’s sex abuse

Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, speaking here at the U.S. Bishop fall general assembly in 2014, has been a prominent liberal voice in the U.S. Church. Lisa Bourne / LifeSiteNews
Claire Chretien

Dirty crimes in "High Places". This is a clear example of aiding and abetting. This could easily be labeled Corporate Sexual Abuse:

*July 16, 2018 (LifeSiteNews) – An explosive New York Times article today details the sexual abuse seminarians and priests endured under Cardinal Theodore McCarrick and the many reports of it bishops and Vatican officials received and ignored.

What other terms can be used but Holy House: A cesspool of deviancy to explain the deeds below? Keep in mind these are not children. They are Seminarians. Being molested is a part of the curriculum?

• “I have blown the whistle for 30 years without getting anywhere,” Father Boniface Ramsey, a former seminary professor at Seton Hall University from 1986 to 1996, said. Seminarians told Fr. Ramsey about the cardinal taking them to his beach house, where he would assign one young man to sleep in his bed, an assignment accompanied by unwanted back rubs by which seminarians were “disgusted.”

It seems that reports were sent on every level, but to no avail.
Ramsey reported McCarrick’s predatory bRehavior to former papal nuncio Archbishop Gabriel Montalvo “and at his encouragement sent a letter to the Vatican about Archbishop McCarrick’s history” when he was appointed to be archbishop of Washington. He never received a response.

A classic example of the fox sent to look for missing chickens in a henhouse. With Cardinal Edward Egan, the coverup continues. This is why the RCC can't investigate itself.

• He also reported McCarrick to former Net w York Cardinal Edward Egan, who is now deceased, and in 2015 Boston’s Cardinal Sean O’Malley. The New York Times noted O’Malley was “appointed by Pope Francis to lead a commission on sexual abuse of children” and he declined to comment for their article.

The more than 3,000-word article features, for the first time, the testimony of one of two known recipients of a settlement from the Church over McCarrick's abuse. Both are former priests. The piece notes that one of the challenges to stopping predator clerics is that sexuallny assaulting an adult is not considered a canonical “crime” like abusing children is' and that it was McCarrick who helped draft the bishops’ policy on protecting “children and young people,” which contains “no procedures for holding bishops accountable other than ‘fraternal correction’ by fellow bishops.”
*In my view, this is a license to molest with immunity.

HUSH MONEY

Robert Ciolek received an $80,000 settlement from the Dioceses of Trenton, Metuchen, and Newark. One of the conditions of that settlement was that he sign a confidentiality agreement, from which he has now been released. After the news of McCarrick’s repulsive behavior was made public and he was removed from public ministry, the current bishops of Metuchen and Newark – Bishop James F. Checchio and Pope Francis-appointed left-wing Cardinal Joseph Tobin – apologized to Ciolek.

The other settlement recipient, “who declined to be interviewed and whose file was provided on condition that his name not be used,” ended up abusing two boys himself.

The Times reported:
In the summer of 1987, this former priest alleged, Archbishop McCarrick took him to an Italian restaurant in New York City, and then to the small apartment above the hospital. (Mr. Ciolek described the room in similar terms.)

There, Archbishop McCarrick asked the seminarian to change into a striped sailor shirt and a pair of shorts he had on hand, and joined him in the bed, according to the seminarian’s written account. “He put his arms around me and wrapped his legs between mine,” the account states.

He also wrote that he once saw Archbishop McCarrick having sex with a young priest in a cabin at the Eldred fishing camp, and that the archbishop invited him to be “next.”

The first documented complaint about Cardinal McCarrick came at the latest by 1994, when the second priest wrote a letter to the new Bishop of Metuchen, Edward T. Hughes, saying that Archbishop McCarrick had inappropriately touched him and other seminarians in the 1980s, according to the documents.

The priest had a disturbing confession, the documents show. He told Bishop Hughes that he was coming forward because he believed the sexual and emotional abuse he endured from Archbishop McCarrick, as well as several other priests, had left him so traumatized that it triggered him to touch two 15-year-old boys inappropriately. The Metuchen diocese sent the priest to therapy, and then transferred him to another diocese. But Archbishop McCarrick’s stature remained intact; he was even given the honor of hosting John Paul II on a visit to Newark in 1995 and leading a large public Mass there for the pope.

Around 1999, Mr. Ciolek was called in by Archbishop McCarrick’s former secretary in Metuchen, Msgr. Michael J. Alliegro, who knew about the trips with seminarians, including the bed-sharing. He asked Mr. Ciolek, who had left the priesthood in 1988 to marry a woman, if he planned to sue the diocese, and then mentioned Archbishop McCarrick’s name. “And I literally laughed, and I said, no,” Mr. Ciolek said, adding that the monsignor responded with a sigh of relief.

The Metuchen diocese’s response to the McCarrick victim’s subsequent abuse of two boys is characteristic of how bishops often dealt with predator priests during the height of the homosexual sex abuse crisis: quietly shuffling them around between parishes or dioceses.

The Times also noted the darkly ironic fact that McCarrick “was among the cardinals summoned by [Pope John Paul II] to help manage the [sex abuse] crisis” in 2002 and in the U.S. “played a prominent role publicizing the church’s new zero-tolerance policy against abusing children.” The report also observed that McCarrick voted in the conclave that elected Pope Benedict XVI and “participated in the cardinals’ meetings in 2013 that led to the election of Pope Francis...”

Predator Priest Running free
Cardinal Tobin told the New York Times that he was “greatly disturbed by reports” of McCarrick’s harassment of “seminarians and young clergy.”

“I intend to discuss this tragedy with the leadership of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops in order to articulate standards that will assure high standards of respect by bishops, priests, and deacons for all adults,” Tobin said.

What Tobin didn’t mention is that the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops met in Fort Lauderdale, Florida less than a week before the news of McCarrick’s abuse became public, and they were busy orchestrating a massive anti-Trump, pro-illegal immigration media push.

• Here they are doing the right thing at the wrong time. Clean up your own house.

This what I call Unholy Coverup/foreknowledge
But at this meeting and many before it, as the paper trail of settlements and accusations indicates, there were at least a few bishops who already knew about McCarrick’s sordid history – it seems Cardinals Wuerl, Tobin, O’Malley, and Bishop Checchio, at the very least.

As I see it, More Holy monies for Unholy deeds
As a friend said of the McCarrick scandal, “These stories make me shake as a new Catholic. I wonder how many tithings went to settlements? How can the hands that lead a Mass be the hands that ruin lives with sexual touching?”

• This is my question too. CM

C Mc

Cardinal O’Malley Says ‘More Than Apologies’ Needed in Cardinal McCarrick Scandal

‘It is my conviction that three specific actions are required at this time ...’

On Tuesday, Cardinal Sean O’Malley, archbishop of Boston and chairman of the Vatican’s sexual abuse commission, issued the following statement regarding the unfolding sex abuse scandal involving Cardinal Theodore McCarrick:

“For the past several days, articles in the national media have reported accusations of Cardinal Theodore McCarrick’s sexual improprieties with several adults and his criminal violations of the sexual abuse of minors. These alleged actions, when committed by any person, are morally unacceptable and incompatible with the role of a priest, bishop or cardinal....

“These accusations are understandably a source of great disappointment and anger for many. These cases, involving a cardinal, must be viewed in light of the last two decades of the Church’s experience with clerical sexual abuse. It is my conviction that three specific actions are required at this time.

• First, a fair and rapid adjudication of these accusations.
• Second, an assessment of the adequacy of our standards and policies in the Church at every level, and especially in the case of bishops.
• Third, communicating more clearly to the Catholic faithful and to all victims the process for reporting allegations against bishops and cardinals. Failure to take these actions will threaten and endanger the already weakened moral authority of the Church and can destroy the trust required for the Church to minister to Catholics and have a meaningful role in the wider civil society. In this moment there is no greater imperative for the Church than to hold itself accountable to address these matters, which I will bring to my upcoming meetings with the Holy See with great urgency and concern.”

In my opinion, the average criminal goes directly to jail. Is this more of the same? See the clip (above) of Cardinal Theodore McCarrick in his own words. This appears that the RCC is trying to repair the plane while flying it at the same time. Will the Catholic Church turn Cardinal Theodore McCarrick over to authorities for prosecution? This just the tip of the Church's Sex Crime Iceberg. Believe ye me, it's far worse than what's reported. What we have in front of us, is just the spillage from the overflow from sacred men, sacred houses, and serious sex-crimes imposed on the Saints. CM

SOURCE: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/joan-desmond/cardinal-omalley-says-more-than-apologies-needed-in-cardinal-mccarrick-scan

C Mc

Cardinal Theodore McCarrick resigns from College of Cardinals amid sexual abuse scandal

Pope Francis accepted the resignation and ordered the former head of the Archdiocese of Washington to observe a life of prayer and penance in seclusion.
by Saphora Smith and Alanna Satur / Jul.28.2018 / 7:52 AM ET / Updated Jul.28.2018 / 8:25 AM ET

MY COMMENTS ARE CAP/BOLD. CM

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/cardinal-theodore-mccarrick-resigns-college-cardinals-amid-sexual-abuse-scandal-n895501

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/cardinal-theodore-mccarrick-resigns-amid-sexual-abuse-allegations-1287605827931

Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, who last month became one of the highest-ranking Americans to be removed from public ministry because of sex abuse allegations, has resigned from the College of Cardinals in the Vatican.

ONE MORE STAIN ON AMERICA'S TARNISHED SOUL OF RECENT TIMES.

Pope Francis accepted the resignation and ordered McCarrick — the former head of the Archdiocese of Washington and a well-known religious figure around the world — to observe a life of prayer and penance in seclusion, according to a statement released by the Holy See on Saturday.

THIS IS ENOUGH TO MAKE THE FAMILY BLOOD BOIL. WHERE IS JUSTICE FOR THE FAMILIES? THE CHURCH ROLES ON... IS THIS FAIR BY ONE'S STANDARDS?

The statement said he was obliged to "remain in a house yet to be indicated to him ... until the accusations made against him are examined in a regular canonical trial."

The announcement follows the Vatican’s decision last month to remove McCarrick from public ministry in light of allegations of sexual abuse involving a minor while he was working as a priest in New York. After his removal, Roman Catholic Church officials in New Jersey revealed that the 88-year-old cardinal had also been accused of sexual misconduct by adults three times in the past. Two of those accusations resulted in secret settlements, officials said.

_THERE SEEM TO BE NO LIMITS TO THE LEVEL MISDEEDS AND SIN. IS HOMOSEXUALITY ACCEPTABLE IN THE RCC? IT'S THE LIKELIHOOD THAT THOSE YOUNG SEMINARIANS IF THEY STAY IN THE PRIESTHOOD, WILL MOLEST, AS THEY HAVE BEEN MOLESTED. WHAT AN UGLY, HORRIBLE, TRAGIC CYCLE_?

The allegations posed a test for Francis who, earlier this year, became the first the pontiff to denounce a "culture of abuse and cover-up" in the Catholic Church. In a letter to the Chilean faithful in May, the pontiff thanked victims for their "valiant perseverance" in searching for the truth.

I CONCUR WITH POPE FRANCES THAT THERE IS A ""culture of abuse and cover-up" IN THE RCC. IN MY VIEW, UNTIL SOMETHING DRASTIC HAPPENS SOON, THAT "culture of abuse and cover-up" BECOMES WAS, IS, AND WILL BE.

Cardinal Theodore McCarrick accused of sexual abusing teen
In response to the announcements last month, McCarrick denied wrongdoing and said he was “shocked” when he learned of the allegation involving a minor some months ago. He added that he supported a thorough investigation by the police and the Archdiocese of New York.

A CRIME OF THIS NATURE, WHY DIDN'T THE CARDINAL JUST MADE A CONFESSION--COME CLEAN? HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IN THE TENETS OF HIS OWN FAITH?

However, a church statement said that McCarrick, who was archbishop of Washington from 2001 to 2006 and participated in the selection of the current pope as a cardinal, was appealing the finding through the canonical process.

Cardinal Timothy Dolan, the archbishop of New York, said in a statement that the archdiocese knew of only one complaint against McCarrick involving a minor. Law enforcement officials and an independent forensic agency thoroughly investigated it before a review board within the archdiocese reviewed the results and found the claim "credible and substantiated," he said.

In response to the announcements last month, McCarrick denied wrongdoing and said he was “shocked” when he learned of the allegation involving a minor some months ago. He added that he supported a thorough investigation by the police and the Archdiocese of New York.

In response to the announcements last month, McCarrick denied wrongdoing and said he was “shocked” when he learned of the allegation involving a minor some months ago. He added that he supported a thorough investigation by the police and the Archdiocese of New York.

IS McCarrick TOO OLD TO RECALL OR IN DENIAL? HIS VICTIMS ARE NEITHER. WILL HE DO TIME? WILL HE BE REGISTERED AS A SEXUAL PREDATOR?

"In the past, there have been allegations that he engaged in sexual behavior with adults," Tobin said in a statement. "This archdiocese and the Diocese of Metuchen received three allegations of sexual misconduct with adults decades ago; two of these allegations resulted in settlements...The Newark Archdiocese refused to provide any details, including when the misconduct was reported, citing "confidentiality."

It remained unclear whether church higher-ups knew of any allegations against McCarrick when he was appointed head of the Washington...

Earlier this month, the most senior Roman Catholic cleric to be convicted of** covering up child sex abuse** was sentenced to 12 months in detention by an Australian court. Adelaide Archbishop Philip Wilson was found guilty in May of failing to report to police the repeated abuse of two altar boys by pedophile priest James Fletcher in a region north of Sydney in the 1970s.

Francis' former finance minister, Australian Cardinal George Pell has also been accused of sexually abusing multiple victims decades ago. In May, an Australian magistrate in a preliminary hearing dismissed around half of the charges against Pell, but decided that the prosecution's case was strong enough for the remainder to warrant a trial by jury.

MORE PRIESTS NEED TO DO TIME. THE RCC FOR SO LONG HAVE BEEN RUNNING A SEX-CRIME INSTITUTIONS FOR SO LONG, AROUND THE WORLD, ALL UNDER THE NAME OF RELIGION, PAYOFFS, ROTATIONS, PROMOTIONS, AND CONFESSIONS.

THESE NEWS STORIES ARE JUST THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG. WHY DON'T THESE PRIESTS CONFESS AND SEEK HELP? IT'S WRONG FOR THE MEMBERS TO PAY PRIESTS SEX-CRIMES COVERUP PAYMENTS, AROUND THE WORLD. THE RCC NEEDS A DRASTIC MAJOR OVERHAUL OF EXTRACTION OF ALL DIRTY HANDS. WHAT PROMISE OF SAFETY ONE HAS FOR THEIR CHILDREN IN RCC INSTITUTIONS? CM

GaoLu

Why plaster it all over forums? (That is not a question)

Eph 5:12 applies here:

For it is shameful even to mention what is done by them in secret.

C Mc

@GaoLu said:
Why plaster it all over forums? (That is not a question)
Eph 5:12 applies here:
For it is shameful even to mention what is done by them in secret.

GaoLu,
1. I hope you are having a better day than yesterday?
2. The RCC Crimes are not "plaster" all over CD's "forums". "Question" or not, it's only in this thread. It's on the Newsfeeds, Cable-news, Podcasts and the Internet.
3. Are you suggesting RCC institutional, worldwide, predator priests, coverup, hush money payoffs, for decades, self-investigative body, snail-paced walking to identify criminals within its bowels and with the vulnerability of thousands of students in her supposedly care; not discuss the sick-men (priests) deeds because they were done in secret? One couldn't be more uncaring, unsympathetic, a manifestation of dereliction of duty to humanity and decency. There are real crimes, real hurt, real pain, real cover-ups, a real need to identify, for justice, compensation and prosecutions. Lives have been destroyed!
4. Frankly, if you have read the entire thread, you, too, would display some form of a "righteous indignation".
5. We must speak up and speak out. Lives have been destroyed (I repeat) and an equal number around the world are currently in danger. It must be discussed, not so much to shame, but to protect, compensation and redress from the Holy House-- "A cesspool of deviancy".

With that said, please, allow me to share another view of the passage you cited with a wealthier background than the purpose you had in mind for citing it. I assumed you meant well, but during the time of Paul greater things were going on than just secret sins.

• "In the heathen worship, there were "mysteries," to which only the initiated were admitted. These were celebrated in the inner temples, and it is doubtless of them that the apostle Paul speaks when he says: "For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret." Eph. 5:12. If the things recorded in the first chapter of Romans were done openly, what must have been the depth of the wickedness that was done in secret, and of which it is a shame even to speak? But let it be understood that the heathen themselves felt no shame for any of their practices. They gloried in them, as things which brought them nearer to the gods. The more licentious they were, the more nearly they resembled the gods which they worshiped. The worst abominations were done in secret, not out of a sense of shame, but to show that certain ones had advanced beyond the common people in matters of "religion."

On this point, Stuart, in commenting on Rom. 1: 24 (See source below), says:

• " The imputation is, that in apostatizing from the true God, and betaking themselves to the worship of idols, they had at the same time been the devoted slaves of lust; which indeed seems here also, by implication, to be assigned as the reason or ground of their apostasy. Everyone knows, moreover, that among almost all the various forms of heathenism, impurity has been either a direct or indirect service in its pretended religious duties. Witness the shocking law among the Babylonians, that every woman should prostitute herself, at least once, before the shrine of their Venus. It is needless to say, that the worshipers of Venus in Greece and Rome practiced such rites; or that the mysteries of heathenism, of which Paul says it is a shame even to speak, allowed a still greater .latitude of indulgence. Nor is it necessary to describe the obscene and bloody rites practiced in Hindostan, in the South Sea and the Sandwich Islands, and generally among the heathen. Polytheism and idolatry ...have nearly always been a religion of obscenity and blood".

I hope you appreciate the fresh perspective and help make suggestions to the RCC, to come clean and the victims of sexual abuse families, to find healing. The "head-in-the-sand" mentality and closed-lips are not options, worthy of consideration. Especially, when so many people, in so many places, for so long, with so many psychological-emotional scars, remains to be healed! I am sure this is something you and I can agree upon. CM

SOURCE:

-- Moses Stuart. "Commentary on the Epistle to the Romans p. 82.

GaoLu

You always have a reason for smearing such stuff around--just like Bill. It appears that you are celebrating the matter, feigning indignation.

C Mc

@GaoLu said:
You always have a reason for smearing such stuff around--just like Bill. It appears that you are celebrating the matter, feigning indignation.

GaoLu,

It appears that your today is just as bad as your yesterday. You don't seem to have access to the joy and peace you recommend to others.

There is no call for your above statements. Where did you get such conclusions of me? I gave references and sources. Are they are not enough for you? what's the matter, GaoLu. You seem to some kind of "displaced angry" flashing around these forums or you the real "troll" you accused, almost, everyone else of being.

Maybe you need to slow down to catch yourself. What do you mean by I " always have a reason for smearing such stuff around"? I didn't create the RCC Priests Sexual Abuse Stories. Have you not read or view the clip in the OP? It's a current news item and there was a recent development. Your and others comment on Trump, Mueller, Congress, US southern borders, U. S. Supreme Court, economy, etc. I don't say this about you. What is your problem? So, please, explain yourself.

Where do you come off saying, "It appears" that I am "celebrating the matter, feigning indignation"? Are you a mind reader? By what authority you feel empowered to assign motives to me? Molestation of young adults (seminarians and children) are as bad as reported and as I have reflected upon it (if not, worse). The numbers, payouts, hurt, anger, the need for justice, the remaining vulnerabilities and identification of remaining priests on very level hangs over the RCC like dark thunder clouds over a freshly laid picnic.

I am sorry if you are related to Cardinal Theodore McCarrick or closely affiliated with the RCC. Notwithstanding, time and truth have caught up with the Church and its misdeeds. It's not the time to be ashamed. It's time to sound the alarm, to warn, rescue, heal, identify, prosecute, and reassure remaining families. Trust must be rebuilt. This is not done overnight. Your attitude to me and this situation seem to betray your supposedly humanitarian heart. If you responded in haste, I forgive you.

So, take out your indignation on the problem, and not on me. Capiche? CM

GaoLu

mmm

C Mc

The Sins of the RCC is Deep and Wide!

Ahead of redacted report, some Pa. Catholic dioceses release names of accused priests

By Lindsay Lazarski, WHYYAugust 6, 2018

The Pennsylvania Supreme Court is expected to release a redacted version of a 900-page grand jury investigation into widespread allegations of child sexual abuse by Roman Catholic priests and clergy in the state as early as Wednesday afternoon or as late as Tuesday, Aug. 14.

The report, lead by the Pennsylvania Attorney General, is the result of a nearly two-year investigation that probes back seven decades and identifies more than 300 “predator priests” in six of eight dioceses.

Initially expected to be released in June, the findings have been held up in legal proceedings and have been challenged by a group of mostly clergy members who say there’s false or misleading information in the report that could damage their reputations.
This week’s release of the investigation will be highly redacted for two reasons. The grand jury chose to protect the victims and witnesses who came forward to testify about the abuse. And the court decided that the identities of the accused who are challenging the accuracy of the report should be given further due process before being named.
The court will hear oral arguments from the challengers and from the Attorney General over these individual cases in September.

Meanwhile, some dioceses under investigation have decided to disclose the names of priests and former employees who have allegations against them of either child abuse or failing to stop abuse when it was reported to them.

In April, the Diocese of Erie was the first of the six dioceses to release a list of priests, teachers, employees and a Bishop who have been banned from working with children based on allegations the diocese believes to be credible. That list has since been updated and includes 67 individuals — living, deceased, and currently under investigation.

“I want to express my sincere sorrow and apologies for the sexual abuse that has occurred within the church,” Erie Bishop Lawrence Persico said at a news conference in April. “I have met with victims and listened to the pain they and their loved ones experienced. It is appalling to learn what they went through — abuse is traumatic enough — but it’s earth shattering when it is perpetrated by someone who is in a position of trust.”

Last week, Bishop Ronald Gainer, head of the Diocese of Harrisburg, followed suit. He published a letter that named 71 priests and seminarians who have been accused of child sexual abuse, inappropriate behavior, or inappropriate communication with children. One more name has been added since then.

“The list is a list of accusations, “ Gainer said at the Aug. 1 news conference. “We did not make assessments of credibility or guilt in creating this list.”

He also ordered the names of every bishop since 1947 — the date the grand jury’s investigation begins — to be removed from any building, facility or room in the diocese. He said the same for any person accused of sexual abuse of a child.

“This investigation has caused the diocese to take a frank look at its past as well as its present, “ Grainer said.

Grainer said he originally planned to publish the list in 2016, but was asked to “stand down” by the Attorney General because of the then ongoing investigation.
The Dioceses of Allentown, Scranton, and Pittsburgh have all said they plan to disclose their own lists of priests and members of the church who have been credibly accused of child sexual abuse when the report is publicly released.

The Diocese of Greensburg said it has fully cooperated with the investigation and publicly supports the release of the report with due process. But it is not releasing a list of names who have been accused at this time.

This situation remains serious. No one is safe. Sexual predators need to be identified, removed, listed as behaved, persecuted, even if in black robes and holy houses. CM

C Mc

GaoLu,

Please re-read this entire thread to ease any concerns about my posting on this subject. My purpose and motives are clear. CM

GaoLu

Indeed.

C Mc

@GaoLu said:
Indeed.

Any more suggestions toward a solution? CM