Physical Kingdom Problems

Dave_L

@C_M_ said:

@Dave_L said:

The great tribulation Jesus spoke of happened in 70 AD. Josephus will confirm this is the worst event in human history, not in numbers of casualties, but in horrors and suffering.

Dave,

"The great tribulation...in 70 AD. Josephus will confirm this is the worst event in human history...in horrors and suffering". Would you say that this true today in light of all that happened since Josephus' times and writings? Do you speak of "horrors and suffering" of a people, a time, or a geographical location that is "the worst event in human history"? CM

Even though technology has made tribulation more widespread, I have seen nothing like God's judgement on the Jews in 70 AD during the siege of Jerusalem. Josephus is quite graphic.

C Mc

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C Mc

@Wolfgang said:

@C_M_ said:
Thirdly, as for understanding the millennium (1,000 years) of Revelation 20, we must accept that it is Christ's message (to the seven (7) churches of Asia Minor and subsequent believers) of things to shortly come to pass.

This point provides and excellent example of the application or non-application of the above two principles mentioned ... All read in several places the very clear and plain message that the things revealed in the book are a "message of things to shortly come to pass", and then claim boldly after almost 2000 years (2 millenniums) have already come and gone that the things in this message are still future because they have not come to pass according to what they imagine how it would come to pass (sometimes they claim their ideas to be "illumination by the Holy Spirit").

Wouldn't it be better and in line with believing that what is stated in the book to claim that these things did, in fact, come to pass but perhaps one doesn't know how it came to pass and doesn't quite understand it? Instead, people claim they know how it must come to pass, and since it hasn't come to pass how they think it should come to pass, they insist on it being yet future ... when really they should simply admit that their ideas about how it should come to pass are wrong and what the text reveals is true and the events did come to pass shortly after the time these things were revealed?

Wolfgang,

The Book of Revelation was written for the purpose:

1. Revealing that which must "shortly come to pass".
2. To stabilize the life and testimony of believing Christians.
3. It is and has been, a definite source of spiritual strength for the church and individuals of all ages.

Revelation is written:

• In a modified epistolary form. There is an opening greeting which reveals the writer and the recipients ("John to the seven churches," Rev. 1:4).

  • There is the prayer for God's grace and peace for the churches (Rev. 1:4) as well as the concluding benediction and final salutations (Rev. 22:21).

• In addition to being epistolary, Revelation also assumes a prophetic stance. The writer describes his work as a "prophecy" (Rev. 1:3) and talks about what must shortly come to pass (prediction).

• As a prophet, John stands in the tradition of the OT prophets. Like them, he challenges the community of faith with a current, relevant, and divine message.

  • He is not a fortune-teller forecasting the future from a detached position.
  • He is a messenger whose message has an urgent divine moral imperative. His message is not optional and peripheral; it is imperative and central.
  • Thus, in designating his book as a prophecy both in the prologue (Rev. 1:3) and the epilogue (Rev. 22:18-19), he requires his readers to respond in faith and action. Indeed, in both passages he urges obedience.

• Finally, that the book is an apocalypse needs no demonstration. It is the most obvious characteristic of the book. This triple character of the book calls for special hermeneutical considerations.

God not only transcends the ages and is eternal immanence, especially as seen in Immanuel (Matt 1:23; cf. John 1:14), but also He will come to us. In this book of Revelation, there are constant echoes and frequent quotations of a word or thought from the former prophet. There are even striking parallels. An example of similar expressions:

• The things which must shortly come to pass. (Dan. 2:29, 45; cf. Rev. 1:19; 4:1.).

Truth found truth shared. CM

SOURCES:
--Merrill C. Tenney, Interpreting Revelation (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1970), pp. 197-199.
-- Paul S. Minear, New Testament Apocalyptic (Nashville: Abingdon, 1981), 15-17.

[Deleted User]

With all that about the book of Revelation, did what was written in it come to pass shortly or did it not come to pass shortly and supposedly (according to many theologians) still hasn't come to pass even after almost 2000 years?