Dispensationalism: Establishing an Understanding
Comments
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Better yet, "consult" the Bible and other threads in these forums. Let the Dispensationalism conversation move forward. CM
There was a specific reason I was asking. It is pointing out his double standard of Trinitarian Doctrine vs. Dispensationalism.
Reformed,
You may be right in your assessment but do it elsewhere. Yes, you're entitled to some clarification, but get it elsewhere, please. CM -
@reformed said:
There was a specific reason I was asking. It is pointing out his double standard of Trinitarian Doctrine vs. Dispensationalism.
Trinity has scriptural support. Dispensationalism hasn't any.
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@reformed said:
You don't seem to be genuine in the search for truth on the topic. You cherry-pick things, refuse to investigate resources I have shown, and don't list your sources.
Wow, What accusation! I think it a bit premature to draw that conclusion.
- Are you sure I have that book of Ryrie?
- Do you think I'm going to limit my reading to just Ryrie?
- Others have something to say on the topic.
- There are various numbers of Dispensation (3, 7, 10, etc.) among believers.
- Do you expect me to read Ryrie's book in a day?
In short, are you being fair in your exchanges with me on this topic? CM
Post edited by C Mc on -
@reformed said:
Yes mother
Let's not go here. This is a pure distraction. We don't need this. CM
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@C_M_ said:
@reformed said:
You don't seem to be genuine in the search for truth on the topic. You cherry-pick things, refuse to investigate resources I have shown, and don't list your sources.
Wow, What accusation! I think it a bit premature to draw that conclusion.
- Are you sure I have that book of Ryrie?
No which is why I gave you the Amazon link.
- Do you think I'm going to limit my reading to just Ryrie?
Never said as much, but considering that is the leading resource on the topic....
- Others have something to say on the topic.
- There are various numbers of Dispensation (3, 7, 10, etc.) among believers.
- Do you expect me to read Ryrie's book in a day?
A day? No, but at least do some real research before you keep spouting off junk without citation.
In short, are you being fair in your exchanges with me on this topic? CM
Yes
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@C_M_ said:
No doctrine is built on one text alone. That's a given. Let's stay focused. CM
Jesus is Lord?
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@reformed said:
False, but you wouldn't know that because you won't read the support.
I've read their articles for years. If they had support, you would too. But you and they haven't any.
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
False, but you wouldn't know that because you won't read the support.
I've read their articles for years. If they had support, you would too. But you and they haven't any.
Also a bold faced lie or ignorance I am not sure which.
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The Historical Roots of the "Genuineness and Authenticity of the Doctrine of Dispensationalism"
One needs to go back to the historicity or ancient Dispensationalism. An extensive survey of its bibliographical data traces the presence of dispensational systems daring back not only to apostolic times but also to Jewish and pre-Jewish thought.
Thus the historical roots of the "genuineness and authenticity of the doctrine of Dispensationalism" through the light from the past are finally found from the concepts of the six creative days and the seventh day of rest, of Genesis, for he considers this creation week as prophetically symbolic of periods of development— the sex-and septa-millenary [the creation-week pattern for human history] concept.
From this point of view each day of the creation week represents a thousand years in the successive development of history and then time is arranged into seven thou¬sand years of seven periods. The seventh period, after the analogy of six thousand years, was designated as an era of rest or a millennium.
- Justin Martyr (Dialog with Trypho, A Jew 81) and Irenaeus (Against Heresies 5.23.2) are sometimes mistakenly cited as teaching long creation days on the basis of equating “day” with a thousand years. This is a common error and we see it, for example, in Hugh Ross, A Matter of Days (Colorado Springs, CO: NavPress, 2004), 43. A day as a thousand years was never applied to the creation days themselves, only to post-creation history.
An astute exegete follows the Word and the Genesis account. Just because a modern heresy roots good back in time, it does make it true. There were heresies in history too. Moving them forward doesn't sanitize them of their falsehood. CM
SOURCES:
-- "Dispensationalism," Corpus Dictionary of Western Churches, ed. T. C. O'Brien (Washington, DC: Corpus Publications, 1970), 266.
-- See also Clarence B. Bass, Back¬grounds to Dispensationalism: Its Historical Genesis and Ecclesiastical Implications (Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1960), 7.
-- Elert, Werner. Law and Gospel. Social ethics series 16. Translated by Edward H. Schroeder. Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1967.
-- Epistle of Barnabas (33:1),
-- Justin Martyr's Dialogue Trypho.
-- Irenaeus' Against Heresies (Book 5, chapter 28, section 3)
-- Arnold D. Ehlert's articles, "A Bibliography of Dispensationalism," BSac 101 (1944): 95-101, 199-209.
-- Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today. Chicago: Moody Press, 1965., pp 65-78
-- Ryrie, The Basis of the Premillennial Faith. Neptune, NJ: Lozeaux Brothers, 1972., pp 17-33. -
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
False, but you wouldn't know that because you won't read the support.
I've read their articles for years. If they had support, you would too. But you and they haven't any.
Also a bold faced lie or ignorance I am not sure which.
I know what they believe and have been around them off and on my entire life. They are false prophets not having one of their predictions to come true since Margaret MacDonald began hallucinating with a fever, giving them the pre-trib rapture ideas.
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Are you sure, I can afford the cost of the book?
- Do you think I'm going to limit my reading to just Ryrie?
Never said as much, but considering that is the leading resource on the topic....
Indeed, but he's not the only source. You have a bias because you sat at Ryrie's feet.
- Others have something to say on the topic.
Why the hesitation to acknowledge this?
- There are various numbers of Dispensation (3, 7, 10, etc.) among believers.
What a convenience oversight of acknowledgment. Better yet, are you aware of this--various numbers of Dispensation?
- Do you expect me to read Ryrie's book in a day?
A day? No, but at least do some real research before you keep spouting off junk without citation.
Reformed,
- What "junk", on this topic, have I "spouted" out?
- What you called "junk", did you ask for further references or elaborations?
- I hope this is not a tactic to abort the conversation on the topic.
- Ninety-seven percent of all my posts (regardless of subject), I have given some source or references to expand one's base knowledge on the post. I am sensing some uncertainty and misplaced anger (over someone or something).
So, let's keep our exchanges truthful, mature, and respectful. CM
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
False, but you wouldn't know that because you won't read the support.
I've read their articles for years. If they had support, you would too. But you and they haven't any.
Also a bold faced lie or ignorance I am not sure which.
I know what they believe and have been around them off and on my entire life. They are false prophets not having one of their predictions to come true since Margaret MacDonald began hallucinating with a fever, giving them the pre-trib rapture ideas.
Dispensational Theology does not make predictions Dave. So no, you have shown you do not know what DIspensationalism is just the thoughts of crazy extremists that you lump everyone together in which is dishonest and ignorant.
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Ever heard of a library?
- Do you think I'm going to limit my reading to just Ryrie?
Never said as much, but considering that is the leading resource on the topic....
Indeed, but he's not the only source. You have a bias because you sat at Ryrie's feet.
No, anyone will tell you he was an authority on the subject.
- Others have something to say on the topic.
Why the hesitation to acknowledge this?
Irrelevant.
- There are various numbers of Dispensation (3, 7, 10, etc.) among believers.
What a convenience oversight of acknowledgment. Better yet, are you aware of this--various numbers of Dispensation?
Dispensational Theology is a system.
- Do you expect me to read Ryrie's book in a day?
A day? No, but at least do some real research before you keep spouting off junk without citation.
Reformed,
- What "junk", on this topic, have I "spouted" out?
Uncited sources. Immediate accusations of heresy and lies.
- What you called "junk", did you ask for further references or elaborations?
I told you to read a book.
- I hope this is not a tactic to abort the conversation on the topic.
It needs to be aborted because there is no objectivity in this thread.
- Ninety-seven percent of all my posts (regardless of subject), I have given some source or references to expand one's base knowledge on the post. I am sensing some uncertainty and misplaced anger (over someone or something).
So, let's keep our exchanges truthful, mature, and respectful. CM
Yes Mother.
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
False, but you wouldn't know that because you won't read the support.
I've read their articles for years. If they had support, you would too. But you and they haven't any.
Also a bold faced lie or ignorance I am not sure which.
I know what they believe and have been around them off and on my entire life. They are false prophets not having one of their predictions to come true since Margaret MacDonald began hallucinating with a fever, giving them the pre-trib rapture ideas.
Dispensational Theology does not make predictions Dave. So no, you have shown you do not know what DIspensationalism is just the thoughts of crazy extremists that you lump everyone together in which is dishonest and ignorant.
They make predictions based on "news paper" sightings of things they expect to see. Antichrist has already been predicted in everyone from Mussolini to Obama. And hundreds in between. Christ's return 40 years, one generation, from 1948 when Israel began occupying Palestine that fell through as did the rest of phony predictions. The collapse of the Common Market cooled them down for awhile. But armchair prophecy buffs are already seeing red heifers and predicting another Temple. And pleasuring themselves thinking about a nuclear holocaust in the Middle East to speed Jesus' return.
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
False, but you wouldn't know that because you won't read the support.
I've read their articles for years. If they had support, you would too. But you and they haven't any.
Also a bold faced lie or ignorance I am not sure which.
I know what they believe and have been around them off and on my entire life. They are false prophets not having one of their predictions to come true since Margaret MacDonald began hallucinating with a fever, giving them the pre-trib rapture ideas.
Dispensational Theology does not make predictions Dave. So no, you have shown you do not know what DIspensationalism is just the thoughts of crazy extremists that you lump everyone together in which is dishonest and ignorant.
They make predictions based on "news paper" sightings of things they expect to see. Antichrist has already been predicted in everyone from Mussolini to Obama. And hundreds in between. Christ's return 40 years, one generation, from 1948 when Israel began occupying Palestine that fell through as did the rest of phony predictions. The collapse of the Common Market cooled them down for awhile. But armchair prophecy buffs are already seeing red heifers and predicting another Temple. And pleasuring themselves thinking about a nuclear holocaust in the Middle East to speed Jesus' return.
That's not Dispensational Theology Dave. That's extremist crazies. There IS A DIFFERENCE.
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
False, but you wouldn't know that because you won't read the support.
I've read their articles for years. If they had support, you would too. But you and they haven't any.
Also a bold faced lie or ignorance I am not sure which.
I know what they believe and have been around them off and on my entire life. They are false prophets not having one of their predictions to come true since Margaret MacDonald began hallucinating with a fever, giving them the pre-trib rapture ideas.
Dispensational Theology does not make predictions Dave. So no, you have shown you do not know what DIspensationalism is just the thoughts of crazy extremists that you lump everyone together in which is dishonest and ignorant.
They make predictions based on "news paper" sightings of things they expect to see. Antichrist has already been predicted in everyone from Mussolini to Obama. And hundreds in between. Christ's return 40 years, one generation, from 1948 when Israel began occupying Palestine that fell through as did the rest of phony predictions. The collapse of the Common Market cooled them down for awhile. But armchair prophecy buffs are already seeing red heifers and predicting another Temple. And pleasuring themselves thinking about a nuclear holocaust in the Middle East to speed Jesus' return.
That's not Dispensational Theology Dave. That's extremist crazies. There IS A DIFFERENCE.
This is what they do with the raw material the Yodas of the movement furnish for the followers. How many times have you wondered if Obama or some other political figure you don't like was the Antichrist? Be honest..........
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@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
False, but you wouldn't know that because you won't read the support.
I've read their articles for years. If they had support, you would too. But you and they haven't any.
Also a bold faced lie or ignorance I am not sure which.
I know what they believe and have been around them off and on my entire life. They are false prophets not having one of their predictions to come true since Margaret MacDonald began hallucinating with a fever, giving them the pre-trib rapture ideas.
Dispensational Theology does not make predictions Dave. So no, you have shown you do not know what DIspensationalism is just the thoughts of crazy extremists that you lump everyone together in which is dishonest and ignorant.
They make predictions based on "news paper" sightings of things they expect to see. Antichrist has already been predicted in everyone from Mussolini to Obama. And hundreds in between. Christ's return 40 years, one generation, from 1948 when Israel began occupying Palestine that fell through as did the rest of phony predictions. The collapse of the Common Market cooled them down for awhile. But armchair prophecy buffs are already seeing red heifers and predicting another Temple. And pleasuring themselves thinking about a nuclear holocaust in the Middle East to speed Jesus' return.
That's not Dispensational Theology Dave. That's extremist crazies. There IS A DIFFERENCE.
This is what they do with the raw material the Yodas of the movement furnish for the followers. How many times have you wondered if Obama or some other political figure you don't like was the Antichrist? Be honest..........
Honestly I haven't. Because ultimately it doesn't matter. The course will play out. And if that is what they do with the material put out then they aren't actually studying what is put out and the Scripture. Nobody knows the time or place. Nobody. That is Dispensational Theology, not predicting Christ's return.
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Although its roots are thought by some Dispensationalists to trace back to ancient times, most theologians credit J. N. Darby, an Anglican lawyer, and preacher, with the first systematic dispensational theology in the Church of England and Ireland in the mid-1820s. Add this to "The Historical Roots of the Genuineness and Authenticity of the Doctrine of Dispensationalism", a fuller picture of this begin to come into focus.
Darby himself never claimed to have originated the pretribulation rapture theory. Rather, he was the famous organizer and promoter of the Plymouth Brethren movement. According to MacPherson, modern pretribulation rapture theory was originated from a private revelation of Margaret MacDonald, a young Scottish lassie [girl or woman], in the early part of in the early part of 1830. She was supposed to be the hyper-Charismatic 15-year old Scottish girl who affirmed the Pre-Trib Rapture in her emotional trances in 1830 which are portrayed as demon-induced. I leave this for others to confirm.
Overall this is the genesis of the modern era of Dispensationalism. Dispensational Theology moved to Scofieldian, Ultra, Progressive, etc...
Now, let's move on to the validity of Dispensationalism in light of the Bible.
Sources:
-- Dave MacPherson, The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin: The Recent Discovery of a Well-Known Theory's Beginning and Its Incredible Cover-Up (Kansas, MO: Heart of America Bible Society, 1973), 101.
-- Dave MacPherson, The Great Rapture Hoax (Fletcher, NC: New Puritan Library, 1983), 47-53.
PS. If you want to see a very hard-hitting documentary film that is designed to debunk the concept of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, consider a pastor in California who issued a video album titled, “Left Behind or Led Astray. The album contains two DVD discs that run a total of 4 hours and 22 minutes. The video was produced by Joe Schimmel, the Pastor of Blessed Hope Chapel in Simi Valley, California.
This is shared information and not an endorsement. CM
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@reformed said:
False, but you wouldn't know that because you won't read the support.
I've read their articles for years. If they had support, you would too. But you and they haven't any.
Also a bold faced lie or ignorance I am not sure which.
I know what they believe and have been around them off and on my entire life. They are false prophets not having one of their predictions to come true since Margaret MacDonald began hallucinating with a fever, giving them the pre-trib rapture ideas.
Dispensational Theology does not make predictions Dave. So no, you have shown you do not know what DIspensationalism is just the thoughts of crazy extremists that you lump everyone together in which is dishonest and ignorant.
They make predictions based on "news paper" sightings of things they expect to see. Antichrist has already been predicted in everyone from Mussolini to Obama. And hundreds in between. Christ's return 40 years, one generation, from 1948 when Israel began occupying Palestine that fell through as did the rest of phony predictions. The collapse of the Common Market cooled them down for awhile. But armchair prophecy buffs are already seeing red heifers and predicting another Temple. And pleasuring themselves thinking about a nuclear holocaust in the Middle East to speed Jesus' return.
That's not Dispensational Theology Dave. That's extremist crazies. There IS A DIFFERENCE.
This is what they do with the raw material the Yodas of the movement furnish for the followers. How many times have you wondered if Obama or some other political figure you don't like was the Antichrist? Be honest..........
Honestly I haven't. Because ultimately it doesn't matter. The course will play out. And if that is what they do with the material put out then they aren't actually studying what is put out and the Scripture. Nobody knows the time or place. Nobody. That is Dispensational Theology, not predicting Christ's return.
They know Christ returns 7 years after the rapture. And again 1000 years after the millennium. Which nobody supposedly knows the time of except the Father.
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@reformed said:
CM Said: Are you sure, I can afford the cost of the book?
Reformed said: Ever heard of a library?Why did you direct me to the Amazon link?
CM said: 2. Do you think I'm going to limit my reading to just Ryrie?
Reformed said: Never said as much, but considering that is the leading resource on the topic....
CM said: Indeed, but he's not the only source. You have a bias because you sat at Ryrie's feet.
Reformed said: No, anyone will tell you he was an authority on the subject.CM Said: Why the hesitation to acknowledge this?
Reformed said: Irrelevant.
No, it's not.
CM Said: 4. There are various numbers of Dispensation (3, 7, 10, etc.) among believers.
CM Said: What a convenience oversight of acknowledgment. Better yet, are you aware of this--various numbers of Dispensation?
Reformed said: Dispensational Theology is a system.
Is functioning? Is it connected? Is it biblical? Is a simple or complex system? It's a system for what? I will address the various numbers of Dispensation such what who supposed to know can't or won't.
CM Said: 1. What "junk", on this topic, have I "spouted" out?
Reformed said: Uncited sources. Immediate accusations of heresy and lies.
Not so. prove it.
CM Said: 2. What you called "junk", did you ask for further references or elaborations?
Reformed said: I told you to read a book.
You don't know what's in the book? Has the book been read by the one who requests another to read it? If so, why can't basic information be shared?
CM Said: 3. I hope this is not a tactic to abort the conversation on the topic.
Reformed said: It needs to be aborted because there is no objectivity in this thread.
What specific statement can you point...
It appears someone was going through the motion and was never sincere.CM Said: 4. Ninety-seven percent of all my posts (regardless of subject), I have given some source or references to expand one's base knowledge on the post. I am sensing some uncertainty and misplaced anger (over someone or something).
CM Said: So, let's keep our exchanges truthful, mature, and respectful. CM
Reformed said: Yes Mother.
I am experiencing too much childishness to have a serious discussion. Besides, I like to interact with someone who, at least, is willing; even if his knowledge-base is wanting. Sincerity is required in exchanges for this subject matter. This doesn't appear to be the case at this time. Personally, I don't want to force or pressure anyone, especially one who claims to have more than general knowledge on Dispensationalism. If not now, hopefully, later.
Life's experience has taught me that insincerity, by one who claimed to know, it turns he doesn't really know what he professed or boasted of knowing. It's sad. The ego, like cancer, it takes on a life or production of its own. Let's hope a cure is found soon.
However, I will share my findings as they are unearthed on the subject. Hopefully, someone with the sincerity, maturity, and true knowledge can refute or affirm my posts. CM
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@reformed said:
... And if that is what they do with the material put out then they aren't actually studying what is put out and the Scripture. Nobody knows the time or place. Nobody. That is Dispensational Theology, not predicting Christ's return.Hmn ... nobody knows the time?? Is this what Scripture says? I would suggest to read more carefully what is stated in Scripture about this, when reference is made to Jesus' very own words ...
Mt 24,36 (AV)
But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.Jesus clearly stated that no man except God alone, the Father only, knew the specific time ("day and hour") of the coming of the lord, BUT throughout his public ministry he himself had mentioned plainly the general time frame when he would come => it would be toward the end of the time frame of the generation of his contemporaries when only some of those who heard him speak would be alive; it would be in connection with a siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Writers of the NT scriptures confirmed that it would be within a time frame of "soon", "shortly", etc.
Another clear comparison is given with a woman who pregnant ... does she know the day and hour, the exact time, when labour will set in and the baby will be born? No! Does anyone else know? No. BUT does woman know the general time frame when she will give birth to the child? Yes, most definitely, she knows it is normally going to be at the end of the 9 months of pregnancy! Can othes know this? Yes ... if that information has been told to others.
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@Wolfgang said:
@reformed said:
... And if that is what they do with the material put out then they aren't actually studying what is put out and the Scripture. Nobody knows the time or place. Nobody. That is Dispensational Theology, not predicting Christ's return.Hmn ... nobody knows the time?? Is this what Scripture says? I would suggest to read more carefully what is stated in Scripture about this, when reference is made to Jesus' very own words ...
Mt 24,36 (AV)
But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.You knew what I meant.
Jesus clearly stated that no man except God alone, the Father only, knew the specific time ("day and hour") of the coming of the lord, BUT throughout his public ministry he himself had mentioned plainly the general time frame when he would come => it would be toward the end of the time frame of the generation of his contemporaries when only some of those who heard him speak would be alive; it would be in connection with a siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Writers of the NT scriptures confirmed that it would be within a time frame of "soon", "shortly", etc.
Another clear comparison is given with a woman who pregnant ... does she know the day and hour, the exact time, when labour will set in and the baby will be born? No! Does anyone else know? No. BUT does woman know the general time frame when she will give birth to the child? Yes, most definitely, she knows it is normally going to be at the end of the 9 months of pregnancy! Can othes know this? Yes ... if that information has been told to others.
Of course those aren't equivalent comparisons.
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@reformed said:
@Wolfgang said:
@reformed said:
... And if that is what they do with the material put out then they aren't actually studying what is put out and the Scripture. Nobody knows the time or place. Nobody. That is Dispensational Theology, not predicting Christ's return.Hmn ... nobody knows the time?? Is this what Scripture says? I would suggest to read more carefully what is stated in Scripture about this, when reference is made to Jesus' very own words ...
Mt 24,36 (AV)
But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.You knew what I meant.
What you wrote gave the impression as if no one knows anything about the time ... not even the general time frame.
Jesus clearly stated that no man except God alone, the Father only, knew the specific time ("day and hour") of the coming of the lord, BUT throughout his public ministry he himself had mentioned plainly the general time frame when he would come => it would be toward the end of the time frame of the generation of his contemporaries when only some of those who heard him speak would be alive; it would be in connection with a siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. Writers of the NT scriptures confirmed that it would be within a time frame of "soon", "shortly", etc.
Another clear comparison is given with a woman who pregnant ... does she know the day and hour, the exact time, when labour will set in and the baby will be born? No! Does anyone else know? No. BUT does woman know the general time frame when she will give birth to the child? Yes, most definitely, she knows it is normally going to be at the end of the 9 months of pregnancy! Can othes know this? Yes ... if that information has been told to others.
Of course those aren't equivalent comparisons.
Of course the comparison is exactly illustrating the difference between not knowing anything about the time and knowing the general time but not the specifics.
Do you believe that Jesus knew the general time, but did not know the day and the hour?
By the way, if Jesus did not know day or hour, he obviously was not all-knowing and therefore could not have been God !! (just a little side note for your spiritual enrichment and enjoyment)
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@Wolfgang said:
@reformed said:
... And if that is what they do with the material put out then they aren't actually studying what is put out and the Scripture. Nobody knows the time or place. Nobody. That is Dispensational Theology, not predicting Christ's return.Hmn ... nobody knows the time?? Is this what Scripture says? I would suggest to read more carefully what is stated in Scripture about this, when reference is made to Jesus' very own words ...
Mt 24,36 (AV)
But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.This is on the margin of getting off topic, please note a few things:
- Reformed is technically right.
- Wolfgang, you're principally correct.
God is not a man. He made men.
No man has been given the time of Christ's return.
God is a Spirit and not a man.
In short, no human can claim or predict the return of Christ from vision, inspiration, or calculation. Meaning, don't be gullible or deceived regardless of when Christ returns, sooner or later. We will be given signs that his coming is near. God's "near" in light of the writer or God's, is not the same as a man. We can take this up in another thread if you like. CM
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@C_M_ said:
@Wolfgang said:
@reformed said:
... And if that is what they do with the material put out then they aren't actually studying what is put out and the Scripture. Nobody knows the time or place. Nobody. That is Dispensational Theology, not predicting Christ's return.Hmn ... nobody knows the time?? Is this what Scripture says? I would suggest to read more carefully what is stated in Scripture about this, when reference is made to Jesus' very own words ...
Mt 24,36 (AV)
But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.This is on the margin of getting off topic, please note a few things:
1. Reformed is technically right.
2. Wolfgang, you're principally correct.And what are you really saying ??
God is not a man. He made men.
No man has been given the time of Christ's return.
This is an incorrect statement ... those people to whom Jesus was speaking were told the general time frame concerning his coming and the end of the age => it was to happen while some of them would still be alive, and it would happen when they (and NOT people thousands of years later !!) would see Jerusalem encompassed with armies and the temple would be destroyed.
God is a Spirit and not a man.
Indeed ... just another rather plain argument that Jesus - who was a man, born of a woman - could NOT be nor have been God.
In short, no human can claim or predict the return of Christ from vision, inspiration, or calculation. Meaning, don't be gullible or deceived regardless of when Christ returns, sooner or later. We will be given signs that his coming is near. God's "near" in light of the writer or God's, is not the same as a man. We can take this up in another thread if you like. CM
See above .... it seems you are making a principle mistake in reading => you are reading the records as if those statements had been made just yesterday and had been made to you, however, please note, Jesus was NOT talking to you and me who are living 2 millenniums later but to people who lived at the time he spoke and whom he addressed.
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@C_M_ said:
- “The Church/Israel distinction is the best way to determine whether or not someone is a dispensationalist – the most criterion” (Dispensationalism Today, by Charles C. Ryrie, Moody Press, 1965, pps. 44-45, 132).
PS. Is the above true? CM
No, for one can believe that there is a distinction between the Church and Israel without ascribing to dispensationalism, or being a dispensationalist.
- “The Church/Israel distinction is the best way to determine whether or not someone is a dispensationalist – the most criterion” (Dispensationalism Today, by Charles C. Ryrie, Moody Press, 1965, pps. 44-45, 132).
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@Dave_L said:
Thanks, Do you think Dispensationalism damages kids psychologically? Possibly it indoctrinates them with a false world view? There is a Twitter support group for those with #RaptureAnxiety. Many share their recovery efforts.
Pretribulation concept
In the Pretribulational understanding of future events, the rapture will occur before the tribulation. The church will be moved from the earth before any part of the seventieth week of Daniel 9:27 begins. The rapture and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ are separated by that one week which prophetically represents the seven years.
Dispensationalism has prospered among the conservative-minded Protestants in the United States. American fundamentalism has been deeply affected by this theology. Conn indicates that the teaching of seven dispensations also flourished in the land of the "younger churches." He also states that some dispensational works were translated into Korean in the early twentieth century. During the Japanese occupation (1910-1945) some Christians went to the Shinto shrines, arguing that they were not under the law, but under grace, and therefore they did not need to observe the second commandment. This was a rationalization of Shinto worship under the pretext of dispensational antinomianism.
Are this system and doctrine helping or hurting? CM
SOURCES:
-- Harvie M. Conn. Contemporary World Theology: A Layman's Guidebook ([Philadelphia]: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., 1973), 107.
-- Harvie M. Conn, "Korean Presbyterian Church," WTJ 29 (November 1966): 51.
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@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
Thanks, Do you think Dispensationalism damages kids psychologically? Possibly it indoctrinates them with a false world view? There is a Twitter support group for those with #RaptureAnxiety. Many share their recovery efforts.
Pretribulation concept
In the Pretribulational understanding of future events, the rapture will occur before the tribulation. The church will be moved from the earth before any part of the seventieth week of Daniel 9:27 begins. The rapture and the Second Coming of Jesus Christ are separated by that one week which prophetically represents the seven years.
Dispensationalism has prospered among the conservative-minded Protestants in the United States. American fundamentalism has been deeply affected by this theology. Conn indicates that the teaching of seven dispensations also flourished in the land of the "younger churches." He also states that some dispensational works were translated into Korean in the early twentieth century. During the Japanese occupation (1910-1945) some Christians went to the Shinto shrines, arguing that they were not under the law, but under grace, and therefore they did not need to observe the second commandment. This was a rationalization of Shinto worship under the pretext of dispensational antinomianism.
Are this system and doctrine helping or hurting? CM
SOURCES:
-- Harvie M. Conn. Contemporary World Theology: A Layman's Guidebook ([Philadelphia]: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Co., 1973), 107.
-- Harvie M. Conn, "Korean Presbyterian Church," WTJ 29 (November 1966): 51.
Interesting. I know many have leveled the charge of antinomianism against the Dispies, because Scofield taught the Sermon on the Mount is not for the Church. Which of course is pure antinomianism. It also denies this "doctrine of Christ" as referred to by Matthew at the close of the Sermon. And John says, if any come to your house, not having the "doctrine of Christ", don't let them in or bid them a good day.
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