The History of Trinity (Reference facts only)
My friends, please help me compile historical data on this topic of the Trinity, independent of religious groups interpretation of the biblical text on the subject. How did this doctrine evolve? Spare me any conjectures.
I know the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible. To be crystal clear, I am most interested in the genesis of the formation and trinitarian teachings. Any references to a book, websites, quote of the fathers, etc., would be helpful.
Please share the historical facts with some references, please! If you are not sure or have historical facts, feel free to pass this thread. At least, for this thread, take a little time and do some research before responding. I would appreciate it greatly. It's alright if you don't have anything concrete to add at this time. When you do so, please share, in light of what is requested.
What are the basics of the Athanasian Creed? Is this the creed upon which the entirety of the Roman Catholic faith is built? Does the Athanasian Creed (Roman Catholic Creed) say that the one God is three divine personalities in one indivisible substance or essence?
The three in one God idea came from Athanasius, whose teacher was Origen, who “believed in the doctrine of Purgatory, transubstantiation, transmigration of the soul and reincarnation of the soul. The Scriptures were not literal.” — (See Dr. Ken Matto, Origen's Gnostic Belief System). Happy searching. CM
Comments
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Thanks, very much! CM
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Let's settle it! God is one in three. The Bible teaches it. No debate is needed.
The concept of the Trinity is foundational to several crucial Christian doctrines such as Christology, Pneumatology, Anthropology, Revelation, Atonement, the Great Controversy, Judgment and Salvation. The doctrine of the Trinity constitutes the cornerstone of all Christian doctrines. Without it, Christianity would lose its identity and uniqueness. Not only Jesus is God so is the Holy Spirit. The New Testament pneumatology is plain for all to see:
John’s Gospel is most explicit in teaching that the Spirit would be given only after Jesus was glorified.
- John 7:39: The Spirit had not yet been given because Jesus was not yet glorified.
- John 14:26: The coming of the Spirit (the Comforter) was still future, and would fulfill a teaching function.
- John 16:7: The Comforter cannot come until Jesus departs.
John 16:13: The Spirit would guide the disciples into all truth.
Within the same thought context, the writers may casually refer to the different members of the Trinity. Four kinds of scriptural material express this triune God (Trinitarian) mindset. These comprise passages that include:
1) Jesus and the Father (Matt 1:23; 2:15; 7:21; 10:32-33; 11:27; 27:43; Mk 14:36; Jn 1:1, 14, 18; 5:17-18; 6:40, 47; 8:18- 19, 38; 10:15, 36; 11:4; 13:3; Rom 1:7; 1 Cor 1:3; 2 Cor 1:3; Gal 1:3; Eph 1:2; Phil 2:5-11; Col 1:15-20; 2 Th 1:2, 12; Phlm 3; Heb 1:1-8; 2 Pet 1:2, 16-17; 1 Jn 1:2-3; 2:22-24).
2) Jesus and the Spirit (Matt 1:18; 3:17; 12:28; Lk 1:35; 3:22; 4:1-14, 18; 10:21-24; 11:13, 20; 12:11-12; Jn 1:32-33; 7:37-39; 14:16-17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15; 20:21-23; Acts 2:33; 10:38; Rom 8:2; 9:1; Gal 3:14; 5:5-6, 22-24; Eph 1:13-14; 3:5-6; Heb 9:14; 1 Pet 1:11).
3) The Father and the Spirit (Matt 10:20; Lk 11:13; 24:48-49; Acts 1:4-5; Rom 5:5; 8:27; 15:13; 1 Cor 2:4, 5, 10-14; 3:16; 6:19; 14:2; 2 Cor 5:5; Eph 6:17; 1 Thess 4:8; 2 Pet 1:21).
4) All three persons (Matt 1:20-23; 28:19, 20; Lk 1:35; 24:49; Jn 1:32-34; 20:21-22; Acts 1:3-5, 7-8; 28:23, 25; Rom 1:1-4; 15:30; 2 Cor 1:4-6; 13:14; 1 Thess 1:3-5; 5:18-19; Heb 3:7-12; 6:1-5; 10:15-22, 29-31; Jude 19-25; Rev 1:4-6; 4:1-5:12; 14:6-13; 22:1-17).
It is not necessary that they all be in the same verse or with a triune formula or triadic structure.
Furthermore, most of the NT books begin and end with references to two or three persons of the Trinity. This literary inclusio means that the view of God included in these materials brackets the book. e.g. http://www.ulbap.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Inclusio-Examples.pdf
- For the most part, the General Epistles either begin and end or just begin with references to two persons— Jesus and the Father.
The letters of James; 1 and 2 Peter; 1, 2 and 3 John; and Jude are known collectively as the General or Catholic Epistles on the grounds that they were originally addressed to early Christians in general rather than to specific individuals or congregations (See Harner sources).
Every book but 3 John begins with at least two members of Triune God.
- Hebrews
- 1 John
- Jude clearly express the Trinitarian literary inclusio (see above).
First Peter and Jude
- Place all three members of the Triune God together in one thought unit.
There will always be questions and room, from human minds, for doubt. God has revealed himself in "General" and "Special" revelations. The Bible is true. Let the clear passages explain the difficult ones and your faith in God deals with your doubts. In your response, keep it biblical. The Bible is its own interpreter. CM
SOURCES:
-- Allan Coppedge, The God Who Is Triune: Revisioning the Christian Doctrine of God (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2007), 19, 20, 23-52.-- Philip B. Harner, What Are They Saying About the Catholic Epistles? (New York, NY: Paulist Press, 2004), 1.
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@C_M_ said:
Let's settle it! God is one in three. The Bible teaches it. No debate is needed.
Ha ha ha ...
I am a bit surprised you want to settle for mystery error rather than evaluate a 4th century AD dogma more carefully against Scripture and then settle for what the Bible indeed does teach.
Don't have any time right now to reply further and in detail to the points you mention from a number of authors, perhaps I can get to writing some more by tomorrow
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@C_M_ said:
Let's settle it! God is one in three. The Bible teaches it. No debate is needed.
The concept of the Trinity is foundational to several crucial Christian doctrines such as Christology, Pneumatology, Anthropology, Revelation, Atonement, the Great Controversy, Judgment and Salvation. The doctrine of the Trinity constitutes the cornerstone of all Christian doctrines. Without it, Christianity would lose its identity and uniqueness. Not only Jesus is God so is the Holy Spirit. The New Testament pneumatology is plain for all to see:
John’s Gospel is most explicit in teaching that the Spirit would be given only after Jesus was glorified.
- John 7:39: The Spirit had not yet been given because Jesus was not yet glorified.
- John 14:26: The coming of the Spirit (the Comforter) was still future, and would fulfill a teaching function.
- John 16:7: The Comforter cannot come until Jesus departs.
John 16:13: The Spirit would guide the disciples into all truth.
Within the same thought context, the writers may casually refer to the different members of the Trinity. Four kinds of scriptural material express this triune God (Trinitarian) mindset. These comprise passages that include:
1) Jesus and the Father (Matt 1:23; 2:15; 7:21; 10:32-33; 11:27; 27:43; Mk 14:36; Jn 1:1, 14, 18; 5:17-18; 6:40, 47; 8:18- 19, 38; 10:15, 36; 11:4; 13:3; Rom 1:7; 1 Cor 1:3; 2 Cor 1:3; Gal 1:3; Eph 1:2; Phil 2:5-11; Col 1:15-20; 2 Th 1:2, 12; Phlm 3; Heb 1:1-8; 2 Pet 1:2, 16-17; 1 Jn 1:2-3; 2:22-24).
2) Jesus and the Spirit (Matt 1:18; 3:17; 12:28; Lk 1:35; 3:22; 4:1-14, 18; 10:21-24; 11:13, 20; 12:11-12; Jn 1:32-33; 7:37-39; 14:16-17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15; 20:21-23; Acts 2:33; 10:38; Rom 8:2; 9:1; Gal 3:14; 5:5-6, 22-24; Eph 1:13-14; 3:5-6; Heb 9:14; 1 Pet 1:11).
3) The Father and the Spirit (Matt 10:20; Lk 11:13; 24:48-49; Acts 1:4-5; Rom 5:5; 8:27; 15:13; 1 Cor 2:4, 5, 10-14; 3:16; 6:19; 14:2; 2 Cor 5:5; Eph 6:17; 1 Thess 4:8; 2 Pet 1:21).
4) All three persons (Matt 1:20-23; 28:19, 20; Lk 1:35; 24:49; Jn 1:32-34; 20:21-22; Acts 1:3-5, 7-8; 28:23, 25; Rom 1:1-4; 15:30; 2 Cor 1:4-6; 13:14; 1 Thess 1:3-5; 5:18-19; Heb 3:7-12; 6:1-5; 10:15-22, 29-31; Jude 19-25; Rev 1:4-6; 4:1-5:12; 14:6-13; 22:1-17).
It is not necessary that they all be in the same verse or with a triune formula or triadic structure.
Furthermore, most of the NT books begin and end with references to two or three persons of the Trinity. This literary inclusio means that the view of God included in these materials brackets the book. e.g. http://www.ulbap.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Inclusio-Examples.pdf
- For the most part, the General Epistles either begin and end or just begin with references to two persons— Jesus and the Father.
The letters of James; 1 and 2 Peter; 1, 2 and 3 John; and Jude are known collectively as the General or Catholic Epistles on the grounds that they were originally addressed to early Christians in general rather than to specific individuals or congregations (See Harner sources).
Every book but 3 John begins with at least two members of Triune God.
- Hebrews
- 1 John
- Jude clearly express the Trinitarian literary inclusio (see above).
First Peter and Jude
- Place all three members of the Triune God together in one thought unit.
There will always be questions and room, from human minds, for doubt. God has revealed himself in "General" and "Special" revelations. The Bible is true. Let the clear passages explain the difficult ones and your faith in God deals with your doubts. In your response, keep it biblical. The Bible is its own interpreter. CM
SOURCES:
-- Allan Coppedge, The God Who Is Triune: Revisioning the Christian Doctrine of God (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2007), 19, 20, 23-52.-- Philip B. Harner, What Are They Saying About the Catholic Epistles? (New York, NY: Paulist Press, 2004), 1.
Thanks CM!
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@C_M_ said:
The concept of the Trinity is foundational to several crucial Christian doctrines such as Christology, Pneumatology, Anthropology, Revelation, Atonement, the Great Controversy, Judgment and Salvation. The doctrine of the Trinity constitutes the cornerstone of all Christian doctrines. Without it, Christianity would lose its identity and uniqueness.The Trinity dogma is by no means foundational to true Christian doctrines, rather it is its own man made religion which claims to be "Christian" and in fact has overtaken most of Christianity ever since the councils of the 4th century AD when that dogma established this apostasy in place of true Christianity.
Not only Jesus is God so is the Holy Spirit. The New Testament pneumatology is plain for all to see:
Indeed, rather plain for all to see ... some just don't read that "holy spirit" is spoken of as A THING (a GIFT) which is given to those who believe in Jesus the Messiah. Instead, they make "holy spirit" to be a God-person of a Mystery "Trinity"
John’s Gospel is most explicit in teaching that the Spirit would be given only after Jesus was glorified.
Did you notice the "... would be GIVEN"? Is "God the Holy Spirit" a gift which is given??
Within the same thought context, the writers may casually refer to the different members of the Trinity. Four kinds of scriptural material express this triune God (Trinitarian) mindset.
Just because I, my wife and my grandchild are mentioned within a same thought in a certain context, does NOT at all constitute that we are some kind of a "trinity".
The truth is that Scripture in places mentions God, mentions God's the man Jesus as God's only begotten Son, mentions God's gift of holy spirit which is given by God to believers ... But such constitutes no "Trinitarian mindset" nor is it even speaking about "members of the Trinity". Instead, the passages distinguish clearly between GOD and the man Christ Jesus and God's gift of holy spirit.These comprise passages that include:
1) Jesus and the Father (Matt 1:23; 2:15; 7:21; 10:32-33; 11:27; 27:43; Mk 14:36; Jn 1:1, 14, 18; 5:17-18; 6:40, 47; 8:18- 19, 38; 10:15, 36; 11:4; 13:3; Rom 1:7; 1 Cor 1:3; 2 Cor 1:3; Gal 1:3; Eph 1:2; Phil 2:5-11; Col 1:15-20; 2 Th 1:2, 12; Phlm 3; Heb 1:1-8; 2 Pet 1:2, 16-17; 1 Jn 1:2-3; 2:22-24).
2) Jesus and the Spirit (Matt 1:18; 3:17; 12:28; Lk 1:35; 3:22; 4:1-14, 18; 10:21-24; 11:13, 20; 12:11-12; Jn 1:32-33; 7:37-39; 14:16-17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15; 20:21-23; Acts 2:33; 10:38; Rom 8:2; 9:1; Gal 3:14; 5:5-6, 22-24; Eph 1:13-14; 3:5-6; Heb 9:14; 1 Pet 1:11).3) The Father and the Spirit (Matt 10:20; Lk 11:13; 24:48-49; Acts 1:4-5; Rom 5:5; 8:27; 15:13; 1 Cor 2:4, 5, 10-14; 3:16; 6:19; 14:2; 2 Cor 5:5; Eph 6:17; 1 Thess 4:8; 2 Pet 1:21).
4) All three persons (Matt 1:20-23; 28:19, 20; Lk 1:35; 24:49; Jn 1:32-34; 20:21-22; Acts 1:3-5, 7-8; 28:23, 25; Rom 1:1-4; 15:30; 2 Cor 1:4-6; 13:14; 1 Thess 1:3-5; 5:18-19; Heb 3:7-12; 6:1-5; 10:15-22, 29-31; Jude 19-25; Rev 1:4-6; 4:1-5:12; 14:6-13; 22:1-17).
There is NOT even one passage listed which would indicate or prove a Trinity God ... absolutely NONE.
It is not necessary that they all be in the same verse or with a triune formula or triadic structure.
So any mention of any three things or three people can be called "Trinity" ???
Furthermore, most of the NT books begin and end with references to two or three persons of the Trinity.
See above ... the epistles mention - for example - (a) God, and (b) the man Jesus, etc ... which has NOTHING to do with a Trinity
- Hebrews
- 1 John
- Jude clearly express the Trinitarian literary inclusio (see above).
No, they do not ...
First Peter and Jude
- Place all three members of the Triune God together in one thought unit.
See above .... just because (1) God, (2) Jesus and (3) Holy Spirit are mentioned, such mention does NOT at all define these as being "members of the Triune God".
There will always be questions and room, from human minds, for doubt.
Oh, really are you telling us that folks who believe the Trinity do actually not have human minds? If so, are they not humans or why would they not have human minds??
God has revealed himself in "General" and "Special" revelations. The Bible is true. Let the clear passages explain the difficult ones and your faith in God deals with your doubts.
I agree .... and since I did so almost 5 decades ago, the "mystery Trinity religion" has become undone while Scripture truth of only One, Who ALONE is true God has become clear and plain in all of Scripture.
In your response, keep it biblical. The Bible is its own interpreter. CM
Indeed .... keep it Biblical, and just leave the Trinity theology stuff for what they are.
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Wolfgang,
The answers to questions are in my questions to you for a foundational understanding of where you are:
1. Do you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God through human writers?
2. Do you believe that Jesus is the Savior of man?
3. Is Jesus God?
4. If not, what is he?
5. Is Jesus your Savior?
6. Do you or anyone needs God help a man understand the Bible?
7. What role does Jesus play in the salvation of man?
8. Is Jesus a lieutenant God?
9. What or who is the Holy Spirit?I notice you skipped over my point:
@ CM said: "most of the NT books begin and end with references to two or three persons of the Trinity. This literary inclusio means that the view of God included in these materials brackets the book. e.g. http://www.ulbap.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Inclusio-Examples.pdf
For the most part, the General Epistles either begin and end or just begin with references to two persons— Jesus and the Father".
This is the answer to most of your questions. Take my post as a whole and it will eliminate most of your questions. The ones I asked you are to help you see the importance of God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in your life or any man.
@ Wolfgang said: There is NOT even one passage listed which would indicate or prove a Trinity God ... absolutely NONE.
I don't agree with your conclusion of the texts shared on the Triune God. Your statement above is unconvincing. Are you telling me that the Bible can prove, within its pages, that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are demigods or glorified, angels?
Don't forget, God existed long before the written Bible. So it is for the Trinity. CM
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@C_M_ said:
Wolfgang,
The answers to questions are in my questions to you for a foundational understanding of where you are:? where I am does NOT matter and would not answer my questions regarding YOUR understanding and where you are ... how is it, that such is not clear to you???
I'll do you the favor and answer your questions (instead of saying "I would first need to know your answers so I know where you are ....")
- Do you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God through human writers?
Yes
- Do you believe that Jesus is the Savior of man?
Yes
- Is Jesus God?
No
- If not, what is he?
The man Christ Jesus
- Is Jesus your Savior?
Yes
- Do you or anyone needs God help a man understand the Bible
The Bible is written in human language and thus can be understood by those who read it. It may be that God will help enlighten a man's understanding when his own ability to comprehend from reading would be lacking
- What role does Jesus play in the salvation of man?
He is the promised Messiah, whom God sent (cp. John 3:16)
- Is Jesus a lieutenant God?
Jesus is no type of God ... he is THE MAN Christ Jesus (cp. various passages in NT where it is stated rather plainly that Jesus is a man
- What or who is the Holy Spirit?
(a) Since God is not only "the Father", "the Creator", "the Almighty", "the Ancient of Days", etc. but is also "Holy" and He is "Spirit", there are few passages in Scripture where God is being referred to as "the Holy Spirit".
(b) Also, what God gives to believers as His gift and as "power from on high" is called "holy spirit" in Scripture.I notice you skipped over my point:
@ CM said: "most of the NT books begin and end with references to two or three persons of the Trinity. This literary inclusio means that the view of God included in these materials brackets the book. e.g. http://www.ulbap.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Inclusio-Examples.pdf
For the most part, the General Epistles either begin and end or just begin with references to two persons— Jesus and the Father".
In short, I did so because this doesn't really relate to being an answer to my questions ...
This is the answer to most of your questions. Take my post as a whole and it will eliminate most of your questions. The ones I asked you are to help you see the importance of God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in your life or any man.
Now, how are those questions you asked above supposed to help me or any other man see the importance of God being the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)??
Perhaps you can see from my simple plain clear answers to your questions, that your questions actually do not even have anything to do with any "Holy Trinity God" ?0@ Wolfgang said: There is NOT even one passage listed which would indicate or prove a Trinity God ... absolutely NONE.
I don't agree with your conclusion of the texts shared on the Triune God. Your statement above is unconvincing.
Well, at least my conclusions are straight forward text ... and the texts have nothing about a "Triune God"
Are you telling me that the Bible can prove, within its pages, that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are demigods or glorified, angels?
No .... but I wonder if it is your "Triune God" idea which makes you even come up with such a silly question?
I am telling you that the Bible proves that Jesus is a man (remember, "God" is not born of a woman, only in ancient mythologies are such ideas found) ... and that the Bible proves that God - the Father, the Creator, the Almighty, etc is also called "the Holy Spirit" or "the Spirit" in certain passages of Scripture.Don't forget, God existed long before the written Bible.
Indeed.
So it is for the Trinity. CM
Are you referring to the concept of "Trinity God"? If so, yes, that was most likely also already found in Babylonian mystery religion prior to the writing of the Bible.
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@Wolfgang said:
@C_M_ said:
Wolfgang,
The answers to questions are in my questions to you for a foundational understanding of where you are:? where I am does NOT matter and would not answer my questions regarding YOUR understanding and where you are ... how is it, that such is not clear to you???
I'll do you the favor and answer your questions (instead of saying "I would first need to know your answers so I know where you are ....")
- Do you believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God through human writers?
Yes
- Do you believe that Jesus is the Savior of man?
Yes
- Is Jesus God?
No
- If not, what is he?
The man Christ Jesus
- Is Jesus your Savior?
Yes
- Do you or anyone needs God help a man understand the Bible
The Bible is written in human language and thus can be understood by those who read it. It may be that God will help enlighten a man's understanding when his own ability to comprehend from reading would be lacking
- What role does Jesus play in the salvation of man?
He is the promised Messiah, whom God sent (cp. John 3:16)
- Is Jesus a lieutenant God?
Jesus is no type of God ... he is THE MAN Christ Jesus (cp. various passages in NT where it is stated rather plainly that Jesus is a man
- What or who is the Holy Spirit?
(a) Since God is not only "the Father", "the Creator", "the Almighty", "the Ancient of Days", etc. but is also "Holy" and He is "Spirit", there are few passages in Scripture where God is being referred to as "the Holy Spirit".
(b) Also, what God gives to believers as His gift and as "power from on high" is called "holy spirit" in Scripture.I notice you skipped over my point:
@ CM said: "most of the NT books begin and end with references to two or three persons of the Trinity. This literary inclusio means that the view of God included in these materials brackets the book. e.g. http://www.ulbap.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Inclusio-Examples.pdf
For the most part, the General Epistles either begin and end or just begin with references to two persons— Jesus and the Father".
In short, I did so because this doesn't really relate to being an answer to my questions ...
This is the answer to most of your questions. Take my post as a whole and it will eliminate most of your questions. The ones I asked you are to help you see the importance of God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in your life or any man.
Now, how are those questions you asked above supposed to help me or any other man see the importance of God being the Trinity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)??
Perhaps you can see from my simple plain clear answers to your questions, that your questions actually do not even have anything to do with any "Holy Trinity God" ?0@ Wolfgang said: There is NOT even one passage listed which would indicate or prove a Trinity God ... absolutely NONE.
I don't agree with your conclusion of the texts shared on the Triune God. Your statement above is unconvincing.
Well, at least my conclusions are straight forward text ... and the texts have nothing about a "Triune God"
Are you telling me that the Bible can prove, within its pages, that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are demigods or glorified, angels?
No .... but I wonder if it is your "Triune God" idea which makes you even come up with such a silly question?
I am telling you that the Bible proves that Jesus is a man (remember, "God" is not born of a woman, only in ancient mythologies are such ideas found) ... and that the Bible proves that God - the Father, the Creator, the Almighty, etc is also called "the Holy Spirit" or "the Spirit" in certain passages of Scripture.Don't forget, God existed long before the written Bible.
Indeed.
So it is for the Trinity. CM
Are you referring to the concept of "Trinity God"? If so, yes, that was most likely also already found in Babylonian mystery religion prior to the writing of the Bible.
If Jesus is only a man then the Bible lies because it says all have sinned.
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@reformed said:
If Jesus is only a man then the Bible lies because it says all have sinned.
Great point R!
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@reformed said:
If Jesus is only a man then the Bible lies because it says all have sinned.Whether "Jesus was ONLY a man" or "Jesus was a man" would make no difference, since in both cases the same problem exists !! See, if you think of Jesus as being a "God-man", then still the "man" side would be part of "all have sinned" ...
On the other hand, there is a simple solution to a correct understanding of the phrase "all have sinned", and it is found right in the context. In addition, since sin came by Adam, by only a man, the redemption from sin also had to come by only a man, the man Christ Jesus.
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Trinitarianism is false doctrine & easily debunked.
See here for exegetical data: https://apostolicacademics.com/
How is that for a first post 😊?
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@Homeskillet said:
Trinitarianism is false doctrine & easily debunked.See here for exegetical data: https://apostolicacademics.com/
How is that for a first post 😊?
Welcome to CD, Homeskillet. (How's that for a first greeting?
)It's great to see your contributions to three different threads already. Well done! But your provision in each post of a link to apostolicacademics.com, and the central role of that link in each of your posts, don't reveal much about your point of view on the matters in those threads. I scanned through the website, but it's too lengthy and involved for me to find utility in it at the moment.
Hence, FWIW, I would welcome your posts that convey your personal response to issues, not the web site's.
My view only!
Welcome!
EDIT: As you probably have already discovered, the Trinity is a subject of intense discussion and disagreement in these forums. You'll find thoughtful engagement with biblical texts, critical analysis of several dimensions of the issue, and, as with any good debate among followers of Jesus, some occasional name calling.
All that's to say that your interest in the issue of the Trinity is welcome here. -
@Homeskillet said:
Trinitarianism is false doctrine & easily debunked.See here for exegetical data: https://apostolicacademics.com/
How is that for a first post 😊?
Welcome, @Homeskillet!
Homeskillet,
I, personally, would like to welcome you to Christian Debate. As you can see, there are plenty of categories to choose from. You are at liberty to comment on any of the past or current threads (opened). Or you may start a new one.
A cursory look, shows there are many more threads for you to leave comments. Some are with many comments and others with none. I am sure these forums, with its varieties, are enough to accommodate your interests, satisfy your curiosity, challenge your intellect, and stimulate greater insights.
When you have the time read widely of previous threads if you haven't already. I encourage you to read the entire thread of your interest to make a contribution that would enrich all. You may respond to as many or as few threads as you like. I look forward to our exchanges. Don't worry, you don't have to agree with everybody. When you disagree, if it's all possible, share a reference or two, or why you disagree and others who share your position (point of view). No, it's not required, but it helps enrich the conversation. You're off to a good start. We respect and appreciates divergent views. We can all learn from one another and together.
Feel free to ask any one of us or Chairman Jan, Christian Debate's Lead Administrator questions on usage in the opened forum or by PM (Personal Messages). You are going to enjoy yourself and be blessed. CM
PS. Please tell us how you found us?
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Brethren,
Have we forgotten that the statements about Father, Son, and Spirit found in the NT reveals the awareness of Trinitarian Theology? The initial and crucial issue in this matter is the relationship of Father to Son. An experience that the Christian faith began with personal impact between father and Son. The inspired writers of the NT point to him as the Son of "the living God" (see, for instance, Matt 16: 18). Of him the divine attributes are predicated:- Eternity (Jn 1: 2; Rev 1: 8, 11, 17, 18)
- Omnipresence (Mt 18:20)
- Immutability (Heb 13:8; 1:8, 10, 12)
- Omnipotence ( Jn 1:3; Col: 17).
Things that are in the OT said of Yahweh-God, the highest of all appellations of the Deity, are in the NT said of Christ (Ps 68:18 and Eph 4:8-10; Ps 102 : 21, 24-27 and Heb 1:10-12; Is 8:13-14 and 1 Pet 2:7-8; Is 40:3 and Mt 3:3).
"Crowned with glory and honor" because he was made "perfect through suffering," the Son is infinitely higher than the angels. He existed before all the worlds; he fully shared in the divine glory throughout eternity. But he authenticated his person ultimately and in the time dimension, by his humiliation as servant and Redeemer. He lived as a man among men.
Jesus is the Christ! Jesus is Lord! Jesus is God! CM
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@Wolfgang said:
@reformed said:
If Jesus is only a man then the Bible lies because it says all have sinned.Whether "Jesus was ONLY a man" or "Jesus was a man" would make no difference, since in both cases the same problem exists !! See, if you think of Jesus as being a "God-man", then still the "man" side would be part of "all have sinned" ...
On the other hand, there is a simple solution to a correct understanding of the phrase "all have sinned", and it is found right in the context. In addition, since sin came by Adam, by only a man, the redemption from sin also had to come by only a man, the man Christ Jesus.
No, if Jesus is God, he would not have been born with a sin nature. So no, all natural man have sinned. God is not a natural man. And your right context argument for whether or not all have sinned is absurd. Sin is passed down and we are born into sin.
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@C_M_ said:
Brethren,
Have we forgotten that the statements about Father, Son, and Spirit found in the NT reveals the awareness of Trinitarian Theology?No ... since those statements do not reveal such a thing as a Trinitarian theology. Scripture reveals in both OT and NT a strict "MONO" single person true GOD"
The initial and crucial issue in this matter is the relationship of Father to Son.
God (Who is SPIRIT) is the Father ... the man Jesus (who is flesh and blood .. cp Heb 2:14) is the only begotten Son.
An experience that the Christian faith began with personal impact between father and Son. The inspired writers of the NT point to him as the Son of "the living God" (see, for instance, Matt 16: 18). Of him the divine attributes are predicated:
Yes ... and it was misled and misleading theologians who point to him as "the living God", purposely misinterpreting or omitting "SON OF ..." You even follow their example in your statement above by putting only "the living God" in " ".
- Eternity (Jn 1: 2; Rev 1: 8, 11, 17, 18)
- Omnipresence (Mt 18:20)
- Immutability (Heb 13:8; 1:8, 10, 12)
- Omnipotence ( Jn 1:3; Col: 17).
None of these verses show that Jesus had these "divine attributes" in and of himself, or even had them at all.
Things that are in the OT said of Yahweh-God, the highest of all appellations of the Deity, are in the NT said of Christ (Ps 68:18 and Eph 4:8-10; Ps 102 : 21, 24-27 and Heb 1:10-12; Is 8:13-14 and 1 Pet 2:7-8; Is 40:3 and Mt 3:3).
"Crowned with glory and honor" because he was made "perfect through suffering," the Son is infinitely higher than the angels
So you want to tell us that God suffered and died at the cross and learned and was made perfect there? Do you not realize the stupidity of such an idea as you propose?
. He existed before all the worlds; he fully shared in the divine glory throughout eternity.
Yes, the Messiah Jesus, including him first suffering and afterwards being glorified, existed from even before the foundation of the world ... how? Read 1Pe 1:20, it will tell you.
But he authenticated his person ultimately and in the time dimension, by his humiliation as servant and Redeemer.
And only a HUMAN can humiliate himself ! God does NOT humiliate himself and become anyone's servant! Any idea that God would humiliate Himself and be someone's servant is plain stupidity.
He lived as a man among men.
EXACTLY .... the man Christ Jesus lived among men!!
**Jesus is the Christ! Jesus is Lord!
Yes => Jesus is the Christ, and he was made such by someone else, namely by God
Yes => Jesus is Lord, and was made such by someone else, namely by God!Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.Whom had they crucified? Did they have God crucified? Such an idea would be utter stupidity. No! the MAN Jesus had been crucified, and it was this same MAN Jesus whom God (note that God is not the same as Jesus !!) made both Lord and Christ.
Jesus is God! CM**
This is your added idea ... not found Scripture
Why not leave stupidity behind and start thinking straight and reading straight ??
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@Wolfgang said:
@C_M_ said:
Brethren,
Have we forgotten that the statements about Father, Son, and Spirit found in the NT reveals the awareness of Trinitarian Theology?No ... since those statements do not reveal such a thing as a Trinitarian theology. Scripture reveals in both OT and NT a strict "MONO" single person true GOD"
The initial and crucial issue in this matter is the relationship of Father to Son.
God (Who is SPIRIT) is the Father ... the man Jesus (who is flesh and blood .. cp Heb 2:14) is the only begotten Son.
An experience that the Christian faith began with personal impact between father and Son. The inspired writers of the NT point to him as the Son of "the living God" (see, for instance, Matt 16: 18). Of him the divine attributes are predicated:
Yes ... and it was misled and misleading theologians who point to him as "the living God", purposely misinterpreting or omitting "SON OF ..." You even follow their example in your statement above by putting only "the living God" in " ".
- Eternity (Jn 1: 2; Rev 1: 8, 11, 17, 18)
- Omnipresence (Mt 18:20)
- Immutability (Heb 13:8; 1:8, 10, 12)
- Omnipotence ( Jn 1:3; Col: 17).
None of these verses show that Jesus had these "divine attributes" in and of himself, or even had them at all.
Things that are in the OT said of Yahweh-God, the highest of all appellations of the Deity, are in the NT said of Christ (Ps 68:18 and Eph 4:8-10; Ps 102 : 21, 24-27 and Heb 1:10-12; Is 8:13-14 and 1 Pet 2:7-8; Is 40:3 and Mt 3:3).
"Crowned with glory and honor" because he was made "perfect through suffering," the Son is infinitely higher than the angels
So you want to tell us that God suffered and died at the cross and learned and was made perfect there? Do you not realize the stupidity of such an idea as you propose?
. He existed before all the worlds; he fully shared in the divine glory throughout eternity.
Yes, the Messiah Jesus, including him first suffering and afterwards being glorified, existed from even before the foundation of the world ... how? Read 1Pe 1:20, it will tell you.
But he authenticated his person ultimately and in the time dimension, by his humiliation as servant and Redeemer.
And only a HUMAN can humiliate himself ! God does NOT humiliate himself and become anyone's servant! Any idea that God would humiliate Himself and be someone's servant is plain stupidity.
He lived as a man among men.
EXACTLY .... the man Christ Jesus lived among men!!
**Jesus is the Christ! Jesus is Lord!
Yes => Jesus is the Christ, and he was made such by someone else, namely by God
Yes => Jesus is Lord, and was made such by someone else, namely by God!Acts 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.Whom had they crucified? Did they have God crucified? Such an idea would be utter stupidity. No! the MAN Jesus had been crucified, and it was this same MAN Jesus whom God (note that God is not the same as Jesus !!) made both Lord and Christ.
Jesus is God! CM**
This is your added idea ... not found Scripture
Why not leave stupidity behind and start thinking straight and reading straight ??
On your last line, we were thinking that for you.
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@reformed said:
On your last line, we were thinking that for you.Great ... would you then show us what ideas of mine mentioned in my last post were stupidity?
I at least showed to what I was referring .... such as, for example, your idea about God suffering and dying at the cross ... which flat out contradicts the truth that God alone has immortality and CAN NOT die ... -
CYPRIAN 200-258 AD. Treatises (I 5:423). "and again it Is written of the Father, and of the Son. and of the Holy Spirit, ‘And these three are one' "\
So he quotes 1 John 5:7 meaning it must have existed among the available manuscripts.
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@Dave_L said:
CYPRIAN 200-258 AD. Treatises (I 5:423). "and again it Is written of the Father, and of the Son. and of the Holy Spirit, ‘And these three are one' "\So he quotes 1 John 5:7 meaning it must have existed among the available manuscripts.
It's worth noting that 1 John 5.8 identifies the three witnesses to which 1 John 5.7 refers: (emphasis added)
7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (1 Jn 5:7–8). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.
In specific as well as in context, "the Spirit and the water and the blood" does NOT refer to a Trinitarian construction of the Godhead.
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@Bill_Coley said:
@Dave_L said:
CYPRIAN 200-258 AD. Treatises (I 5:423). "and again it Is written of the Father, and of the Son. and of the Holy Spirit, ‘And these three are one' "\So he quotes 1 John 5:7 meaning it must have existed among the available manuscripts.
It's worth noting that 1 John 5.8 identifies the three witnesses to which 1 John 5.7 refers: (emphasis added)
7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
The Holy Bible: English Standard Version. (2016). (1 Jn 5:7–8). Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles.
In specific as well as in context, "the Spirit and the water and the blood" does NOT refer to a Trinitarian construction of the Godhead.
It still remains, Cyprian quoted 1 John 5:7 as found in the majority text.
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@Dave_L said:
It still remains, Cyprian quoted 1 John 5:7 as found in the majority text.
In my view, that Cyprian (or anyone else) quoted the verse is not a primary source of information about the verse's meaning and consequence to the Trinity conversation. The verse's meaning is best reported, I contend, by the verse itself and the verses around it. It was to that end, in my previous post, that I noted the three witnesses' identification found in 1 John 5.8.
So I ask you, Dave: In your view, according to 1 John 5.8, who/what are the three witnesses to which 1 John 5.7 refers? Given that identification, in your view, what contribution does 1 John 5.7 make to the Trinity debate?
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@Wolfgang said:
@reformed said:
On your last line, we were thinking that for you.Great ... would you then show us what ideas of mine mentioned in my last post were stupidity?
I at least showed to what I was referring .... such as, for example, your idea about God suffering and dying at the cross ... which flat out contradicts the truth that God alone has immortality and CAN NOT die ...God did not die on the cross. The physical body did, but His spirit obviously did not.
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@Bill_Coley said:
@Dave_L said:
It still remains, Cyprian quoted 1 John 5:7 as found in the majority text.
In my view, that Cyprian (or anyone else) quoted the verse is not a primary source of information about the verse's meaning and consequence to the Trinity conversation. The verse's meaning is best reported, I contend, by the verse itself and the verses around it. It was to that end, in my previous post, that I noted the three witnesses' identification found in 1 John 5.8.
So I ask you, Dave: In your view, according to 1 John 5.8, who/what are the three witnesses to which 1 John 5.7 refers? Given that identification, in your view, what contribution does 1 John 5.7 make to the Trinity debate?
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” (1 John 5:7–8) (KJV 1900)
I think it seems balanced in this quote where it seems unbalanced if you omit v 7.
Arguments for each are plentiful but the Cyprian quote helps bias my thinking in favor of V 7 being in existence before the second century.
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@Dave_L said:
@Bill_Coley said:
@Dave_L said:
It still remains, Cyprian quoted 1 John 5:7 as found in the majority text.
In my view, that Cyprian (or anyone else) quoted the verse is not a primary source of information about the verse's meaning and consequence to the Trinity conversation. The verse's meaning is best reported, I contend, by the verse itself and the verses around it. It was to that end, in my previous post, that I noted the three witnesses' identification found in 1 John 5.8.
So I ask you, Dave: In your view, according to 1 John 5.8, who/what are the three witnesses to which 1 John 5.7 refers? Given that identification, in your view, what contribution does 1 John 5.7 make to the Trinity debate?
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” (1 John 5:7–8) (KJV 1900)
I think it seems balanced in this quote where it seems unbalanced if you omit v 7.
Arguments for each are plentiful but the Cyprian quote helps bias my thinking in favor of V 7 being in existence before the second century.
The problem with the KJV rendering of verse 7 is that half of that rendering is not found in any manuscript earlier than the 14th century.
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@reformed said:
@Dave_L said:
@Bill_Coley said:
@Dave_L said:
It still remains, Cyprian quoted 1 John 5:7 as found in the majority text.
In my view, that Cyprian (or anyone else) quoted the verse is not a primary source of information about the verse's meaning and consequence to the Trinity conversation. The verse's meaning is best reported, I contend, by the verse itself and the verses around it. It was to that end, in my previous post, that I noted the three witnesses' identification found in 1 John 5.8.
So I ask you, Dave: In your view, according to 1 John 5.8, who/what are the three witnesses to which 1 John 5.7 refers? Given that identification, in your view, what contribution does 1 John 5.7 make to the Trinity debate?
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” (1 John 5:7–8) (KJV 1900)
I think it seems balanced in this quote where it seems unbalanced if you omit v 7.
Arguments for each are plentiful but the Cyprian quote helps bias my thinking in favor of V 7 being in existence before the second century.
The problem with the KJV rendering of verse 7 is that half of that rendering is not found in any manuscript earlier than the 14th century.
It proves nothing. Try telling a judge you can provide 50 witnesses that didn't see you commit the crime. Same logic. Cyprian quotes it. That's pretty solid evidence. Plus it aligns with other scriptures.
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Oh, it proves that no mss with 1Jo 5:7-8 prior to that time had the "trinity influenced" wording.
Try telling a judge you can provide 50 witnesses that didn't see you commit the crime. Same logic. Cyprian quotes it. That's pretty solid evidence. Plus it aligns with other scriptures.
For one, it is only evidence that in those days already some "church fathers" were influenced by or themselves influencing the church with false doctrine.
In addition, what does the expression "these three are one" mean? It doesn't even say these three are one God, does it? Actually, the most logical meaning would be "these three agree" ... which has nothing to do with being a Trinity God(head) -
@Wolfgang said:
Oh, it proves that no mss with 1Jo 5:7-8 prior to that time had the "trinity influenced" wording.
Try telling a judge you can provide 50 witnesses that didn't see you commit the crime. Same logic. Cyprian quotes it. That's pretty solid evidence. Plus it aligns with other scriptures.
For one, it is only evidence that in those days already some "church fathers" were influenced by or themselves influencing the church with false doctrine.
In addition, what does the expression "these three are one" mean? It doesn't even say these three are one God, does it? Actually, the most logical meaning would be "these three agree" ... which has nothing to do with being a Trinity God(head)We still have plenty of support for both views.
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@C_M_ said:
@Homeskillet said:
Trinitarianism is false doctrine & easily debunked.See here for exegetical data: https://apostolicacademics.com/
How is that for a first post 😊?
Welcome, @Homeskillet!
Homeskillet,
I, personally, would like to welcome you to Christian Debate. As you can see, there are plenty of categories to choose from. You are at liberty to comment on any of the past or current threads (opened). Or you may start a new one.
A cursory look, shows there are many more threads for you to leave comments. Some are with many comments and others with none. I am sure these forums, with its varieties, are enough to accommodate your interests, satisfy your curiosity, challenge your intellect, and stimulate greater insights.
When you have the time read widely of previous threads if you haven't already. I encourage you to read the entire thread of your interest to make a contribution that would enrich all. You may respond to as many or as few threads as you like. I look forward to our exchanges. Don't worry, you don't have to agree with everybody. When you disagree, if it's all possible, share a reference or two, or why you disagree and others who share your position (point of view). No, it's not required, but it helps enrich the conversation. You're off to a good start. We respect and appreciates divergent views. We can all learn from one another and together.
Feel free to ask any one of us or Chairman Jan, Christian Debate's Lead Administrator questions on usage in the opened forum or by PM (Personal Messages). You are going to enjoy yourself and be blessed. CM
PS. Please tell us how you found us?
Thank you. I greatly appreciate the tone of this post. Your gracious remarks are noted.
Will tag back in when I am able and look forward to reviewing the threads.
I read a reference to this site on Logos forums.
God bless.
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