The History of Trinity (Reference facts only)

C Mc · January 2019

@Wolfgang said:

@C_M_ said: 4) All three persons (Matt 1:20-23; 28:19, 20; Lk 1:35; 24:49; Jn 1:32-34; 20:21-22; Acts 1:3-5, 7-8; 28:23, 25; Rom 1:1-4; 15:30; 2 Cor 1:4-6; 13:14; 1 Thess 1:3-5; 5:18-19; Heb 3:7-12; 6:1-5; 10:15-22, 29-31; Jude 19-25; Rev 1:4-6; 4:1-5:12; 14:6-13; 22:1-17).

There is NOT even one passage listed which would indicate or prove a Trinity God ... absolutely NONE.

When John describes the qualities of Christian life in his first pastoral letter, he repeatedly uses an expression born “of God” (1 John 3:9,10; 4:4,6,7; 5:1,4,18). He also repeatedly mentions we should remain “in God” (1 John 2:5,6,27,28; 3:24; 4:13,15,16).

What exactly is he talking about? Is he referring to the same thing as we read in Matthew 28:19?

The baptismal formula in Matt 28:19 emphasizes the three persons of God, and yet we are baptized in one name.

What exactly does it say about God’s character, nature, and values?

There is one God in the Bible – that is a fundamental confession of faith. There are no other gods, and if we enter into a living relationship with God, we do not have nor create other gods (Deut 6:4; Ex 20:3; Mark 12:29).
Yet Jesus speaks of God as of three persons. There are other places in the Bible where God presents Himself in the plural (Gen 1:26; 11:7; Isa 6:8).

How can we interpret the fact that one God is three persons in reality?

It is a known fact that the number three is an important Biblical number. For example:

God called Samuel three times (1 Sam 3:2-14); God is “holy, holy, holy” (Is 6:3)
Jesus was tempted three times in the desert (Matt 4:1-4)
Jesus three times foretold His suffering (Matt 16:21; 17:12, 22, 23; 20:17-19)
On the third day, Jesus came out from the tomb (1 Cor. 15:4)
Three times Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him (John 21:15-17).
The list could go on and on.

The number three in the Biblical world conveys completion, perfection, and also implies a relationship. The perfect God who is complete and self-sufficient exists in three persons, all who relate to each other.

Look closely at 1 John. This fairly short letter (approximately 2500 words), John speaks a lot about God. He frequently refers to each of the three divine Persons in particular"

Father – (12 times)
Son – (22 times)
Spirit – (7 times)

He also refers to

Christ (24 times)
Jesus (13 times)

With the frequency, thus far of three Beings, speaks not only of a message but one of importance. Until next time let's look deeper into this little book for its overall message. CM

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus · January 2019

@Wolfgang said:
Just because I, my wife and my grandchild are mentioned within a same thought in a certain context, does NOT at all constitute that we are some kind of a "trinity".

Physically you have experienced God's design for family relationships.
If I meet you in church (in a city or prison), I would greet you while Smiling: "God's Grace and Peace" plus "God Loves You" with a hand ready to shake yours. Thankful for God's change in me to see everyone alive as someone special to God, who desires an intense, intimate Love relationship with You
My heart senses hurt, which could include an authoritarian presence (anger) in your life, which has influenced (clouded) your view of God.
God's design for Love is community truly loving each other. John 13:34-35
One is alone (difficult to truly express Love)
Two allows relationship: e.g. husband and wife become one
Three (or more) is community: e.g. Love one another as God Loves You
One God choosing to implement three intelligent persona's with free will to choose Love shows Godly expression of Love. God's design is for every human to be intimately connected with/in God. Yet every human has free will choice to Love God or not.

Keep Smiling

Bill_Coley · January 2019

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
Physically you have experienced God's design for family relationships.
If I meet you in church (in a city or prison), I would greet you while Smiling: "God's Grace and Peace" plus "God Loves You" with a hand ready to shake yours. Thankful for God's change in me to see everyone alive as someone special to God, who desires an intense, intimate Love relationship with You
My heart senses hurt, which could include an authoritarian presence (anger) in your life, which has influenced (clouded) your view of God.
God's design for Love is community truly loving each other. John 13:34-35
One is alone (difficult to truly express Love)
Two allows relationship: e.g. husband and wife become one
Three (or more) is community: e.g. Love one another as God Loves You
One God choosing to implement three intelligent persona's with free will to choose Love shows Godly expression of Love. God's design is for every human to be intimately connected with/in God. Yet every human has free will choice to Love God or not.

Wolfgang can and, I'm quite confident, will very ably speak for himself on the matters you address in your post, but I'm curious about the relevance of what you write.

If the biblical witness is that Jesus is not God, then of what relevance to the Trinity debate is...

... God's desire for intense, intimate love relationships with us?
... your heart's sense of "hurt" in Wolfgang's life?
... community as God's design for "truly loving each other"?
... humanity's free will choice whether to love God?

In my view, the first, third, and fourth bulleted items are powerfully important (I believe the second one is inappropriate in forums such as CD), but they're not relevant to the Trinity debate because the biblical witness is that Jesus is not God. Items 1, 3, and 4 can all be true without Jesus' being God.

SO, please explain your view of how the arguments you present are relevant to the Trinity debate. Does any of them require Jesus to be God in order for it to be true? If so, how?

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus · January 2019

@Bill_Coley said:

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
Physically you have experienced God's design for family relationships.
If I meet you in church (in a city or prison), I would greet you while Smiling: "God's Grace and Peace" plus "God Loves You" with a hand ready to shake yours. Thankful for God's change in me to see everyone alive as someone special to God, who desires an intense, intimate Love relationship with You
My heart senses hurt, which could include an authoritarian presence (anger) in your life, which has influenced (clouded) your view of God.
God's design for Love is community truly loving each other. John 13:34-35
One is alone (difficult to truly express Love)
Two allows relationship: e.g. husband and wife become one
Three (or more) is community: e.g. Love one another as God Loves You
One God choosing to implement three intelligent persona's with free will to choose Love shows Godly expression of Love. God's design is for every human to be intimately connected with/in God. Yet every human has free will choice to Love God or not.

Wolfgang can and, I'm quite confident, will very ably speak for himself on the matters you address in your post, but I'm curious about the relevance of what you write.

If the biblical witness is that Jesus is not God, then of what relevance to the Trinity debate is...

... God's desire for intense, intimate love relationships with us?

... your heart's sense of "hurt" in Wolfgang's life?

... community as God's design for "truly loving each other"?

... humanity's free will choice whether to love God?

In my view, the first, third, and fourth bulleted items are powerfully important (I believe the second one is inappropriate in forums such as CD), but they're not relevant to the Trinity debate because the biblical witness is that Jesus is not God. Items 1, 3, and 4 can all be true without Jesus' being God.

Relevance of the second point comes from knowing a number of hurting people with a distorted perception of God from pain in their past. Authoritative control (anger) can be a defense mechanism trying to prevent more pain from previous hurt(s). Caveat: concur private discussion and prayer dealing with hurt(s) is highly recommended over public forum. Thankful for God's Holy healing in me that provides a reason to celebrate recovery from anger while experiencing God's Love
Personally do not know any man that can do what Jesus described in John 10:17 (pick up life after laying it down - crucifixion and resurrection). Thankful for Jesus being alive (resurrected) after physical death certification (Holy sacrifice for our sins) and burial.

SO, please explain your view of how the arguments you present are relevant to the Trinity debate. Does any of them require Jesus to be God in order for it to be true? If so, how?

To deny Jesus being God is to not know Him. Jesus (eternal God) will judge every human along with every knee bowing and tongue confessing that Jesus is Lord. Philippians 2:10-11 If you do not have a personal relationship with Jesus (eternal God), then your eternal destiny is with the devil. Knowing Jesus provides Loving reason to obey His words, which results in Holy Righteous fruit (Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Gentleness, Faithfulness, Humility, Self-Control) showing through actions and words. Our adversary hates every human so wants as many humans as possible to spend eternity in a place of torment that lacks God's Love. Father of lies has many crafty and cunning deceptions to trick humans. The Word (eternal God) left heaven to be born as Jesus. The Will (eternal God) remained in heaven, who became The Father when The Son was conceived as a holy child.

“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits.
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

New American Standard Bible, 1995 Edition: Paragraph Version (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1995), Mt 7:13–23.

Keep Smiling

[Deleted User] · January 2019

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

@Wolfgang said:
Just because I, my wife and my grandchild are mentioned within a same thought in a certain context, does NOT at all constitute that we are some kind of a "trinity".

Physically you have experienced God's design for family relationships.

Ok .. so what does that now mean as far as a belief in a Trinity-God?

If I meet you in church (in a city or prison), I would greet you while Smiling: "God's Grace and Peace" plus "God Loves You" with a hand ready to shake yours. Thankful for God's change in me to see everyone alive as someone special to God, who desires an intense, intimate Love relationship with You

Are you - as your manner seems to be (several posts have shown it) - now without real Biblical answers to points raised and questions asked so that you now revert to a "person attack" and comment on your fantasy regarding my person?

My heart senses hurt, which could include an authoritarian presence (anger) in your life, which has influenced (clouded) your view of God.

Since you are speaking of your heart, perhaps the person about whom you are sensing this is actually you and you are in fact looking in a mirror?

God's design for Love is community truly loving each other. John 13:34-35
One is alone (difficult to truly express Love)
Two allows relationship: e.g. husband and wife become one
Three (or more) is community: e.g. Love one another as God Loves You

So then, what does this have to do with "God" being a Trinity-God?

One God choosing to implement three intelligent persona's with free will to choose Love shows Godly expression of Love. God's design is for every human to be intimately connected with/in God. Yet every human has free will choice to Love God or not.

Again, how does this relate to a Trinity-God? or show that "God" is actually a Trio of Three Gods?

Dave_L · January 2019

Quotes from early Christian writers affirming distinct Persons of the one God who coexisted eternally before the Roman Catholic Church:

140 AD Aristides “[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit” (Apology 16).

150 AD Justin Martyr “God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: ‘Let us make man after our image and likeness’ . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this Offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62).

150 AD Polycarp of Smyrna “I praise you for all things, I bless you, I glorify you, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, with whom, to you and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14).

180 AD Irenaeus “But the Son, eternally co-existing with the Father, from of old, yea, from the beginning, always reveals the Father to Angels, Archangels, Powers, Virtues…” (Against Heresies, Book II, ch. 30, section 9)

180 AD Irenaeus “It was not angels, therefore, who made us, nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor any one else, except the Word of the Lord, nor any Power remotely distant from the Father of all things. For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself
determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, “Let Us make man after Our image and likeness; ” [Gen. 1:26]” (Against Heresies 4:20:1).

190 AD Clement Of Alexandria “I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father.” (Stromata, Book V, ch. 14)

190 AD Clement Of Alexandria “When [John] says: ‘What was from the beginning [1 John 1:1],’ he touches upon the generation without beginning of the Son, who is co-equal with the Father. ‘Was,’ therefore, is indicative of an eternity without a beginning, just as the Word Himself, that is the Son, being one with the Father in regard to equality of substance, is eternal and uncreated. That the word always existed is signified by the saying: ‘In the beginning was the Word’ [John 1:1].” (fragment in Eusebius History, Bk 6 Ch 14; Jurgens, p. 188)

200 AD Tertullian “All the Scriptures give clear proof of the Trinity, and it is from these that our principle is deduced…the distinction of the Trinity is quite clearly displayed.” (Against Praxeas, ch 11)

200 AD Tertullian “Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are, one essence, not one Person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are One’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of Being not singularity of number” (Against Praxeas, 25)
225 AD

Origen “Nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification.” (De Principis, Book I, ch. 3, section 7)

Source: Encyclopedia of Cults and New Religions

BY J. WILLIAMSIN. (n.d.). Oneness Pentecostalism and Their False Doctrine of Modalism.

C Mc · January 2019

@ Dave_L said: "...before the Roman Catholic Church"?

Did it start after 200 AD? The RCC is not a succession of the apostles? CM

[Deleted User] · January 2019

@Dave_L said:
Quotes from early Christian writers affirming distinct Persons of the one God who coexisted eternally before the Roman Catholic Church:

Dave_L, what does the expression "distinct persons of the one God" mean? For example,

Do you mean "persons who are distinct of/from God (which would make God to be a separate entity from those persons)?
Do you mean that these persons are servants or in some type of relationship to God (again, God would be a separate entity from these persons)?
Do you mean that these persons are in God's possession or belongings?
Do you mean {something else} ?

Dave_L · January 2019

@Wolfgang said:

@Dave_L said:
Quotes from early Christian writers affirming distinct Persons of the one God who coexisted eternally before the Roman Catholic Church:

Dave_L, what does the expression "distinct persons of the one God" mean? For example,

Do you mean "persons who are distinct of/from God (which would make God to be a separate entity from those persons)?

Do you mean that these persons are servants or in some type of relationship to God (again, God would be a separate entity from these persons)?

Do you mean that these persons are in God's possession or belongings?

Do you mean {something else} ?

God exists from eternity as three self-conscious Persons, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and that these sustain the following relations:

(1.) They all are modes of existence of one indivisible spiritual substance. "They are the same in substance."

(2.) Hence they must be essentially equal in power and dignity and glory. There can be no temporal pre-existence, no dependence of one upon the will of the other, no superior authority to which the others are subject. Therefore they are to be regarded and treated by all their creatures with equal love, gratitude, reverence, confidence and obedience.

(3.) Nevertheless, the Bible discovers a fixed order of existence and of operation between them. As to existence, the Father is first, the Son second, and the Spirit third. This order is of course not chronological, since all are alike eternal, but one of origin and consequence.

The Father eternally "begets" the Son, and the Spirit eternally "proceeds from" the Father and the Son. Hence the second Person is eternally the "Son" of the Father, who begets him, and the third Person is eternally "the Spirit," or breath of the Father and of the Son, from whom he proceeds. The order of operation also from God outward on his creatures is the same. The Father is the source of all movement. To him the decrees are principally referred in Scripture. He sends the Son, and the Father and the Son send the Spirit. In creation and providence all movement is habitually represented in Scripture as from the Father, through the Son and by the Spirit. And in the return of man to God through the method of redemption it is always to the Father, through the Son, by the Spirit (Eph. 2:18).

(4.) The terms "Father" and "Son" are reciprocal. We know these divine Persons in their personal distinctions and relations only so far as these are signified by these relative terms. The distinction of the personality of the first Person is that he is eternally the Father of the second Person; and the personal distinction of the second Person is that he is eternally the Son of the first. The personal titles of the second Person mutually throw light on one another. These are: ὁ λόγος, the Word; ὁ υἱός, the Son; ὁ μονογενής, the Only-begotten; εἰκὼν τοῦ θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως, the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης αὐτοῦ, the radiancy of his glory; and χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ, the very image of his substance.

This divine Person, so designated as to his eternal and essential personal relations to the Father, has become incarnate by taking into his personality a germinant human nature in the womb of the Virgin Mary. Thus an eternal divine Person embraces in the unity of the one person a perfect human nature, so that he is both God and man in two distinct natures, and one person for ever. This seems impossible. Nevertheless, it is an historical fact. We know that the one individual person, Jesus of Nazareth, was, and ever continues to be, at once perfect God and perfect man.

There is no more contrariety between the essential properties of the two natures than between matter and spirit. In our own persons—which we are certain are one and indivisible—we embrace both of these opposite substances in one. No act of consciousness, no analysis by microscope or chemical reagents, nor by knife, can penetrate to the dividing-line between soul and spirit. Both substances spontaneously conspire in one energy and coalesce in one consciousness. In some way like this the divine Spirit has penetrated the human nature and made it the obedient organ of its central personality. And everything done by him in execution of his mediatorial offices is due to the co-operating energies of both natures, divine and human.

There is no fourth Person added to the Trinity. The eternal second Person remains the same. On the inner side, that he presents to the Father and to the Holy Ghost, he is the same immutable divine Person. On the outer side, that he presents to mankind, the eternal Word has come down into time and space, and become visible and audible and tangible to us in the human nature he has taken into his Person. In him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, so that the apostles "heard it," and "saw it with their eyes," and "handled it with their hands" (1 John 1:1; Col. 2:9).

(5.) The eternal third Person of the Trinity is always third in order. He proceeds from the Father and from the Son. He is eternally the "Spirit of the Father," and equally "the Spirit of the Son." He is the Author of beauty in the physical world and of holiness in the moral and spiritual world. Wherever he is, there the Father and the Son are. He is in all spheres of action, whether of creation or of providence or of redemption, the executive of God.

https://www.monergism.com/trinity-persons-godhead

[Deleted User] · January 2019

Dave_L, I have seldom read so many words which essentially say nothing of real substance and clear communication. What you posted appears to be an attempt by the author(s) to drown the reader in man fancy words and give the impression that what is put forth may perhaps just be "too high" for the average reader who is then expected to just "cave in" and "accept by (blind) faith" the loony tunes propagated by the author of the article.

Why did YOU not just simply answer in simple plain terms the questions I had asked YOU concerning YOUR use of that expression in YOUR earlier post?? I would think, such simple plain answer would have been more helpful and better than quoting the article.

Dave_L · January 2019

@Wolfgang said:
Dave_L, I have seldom read so many words which essentially say nothing of real substance and clear communication. What you posted appears to be an attempt by the author(s) to drown the reader in man fancy words and give the impression that what is put forth may perhaps just be "too high" for the average reader who is then expected to just "cave in" and "accept by (blind) faith" the loony tunes propagated by the author of the article.

Why did YOU not just simply answer in simple plain terms the questions I had asked YOU concerning YOUR use of that expression in YOUR earlier post?? I would think, such simple plain answer would have been more helpful and better than quoting the article.

If you had no agenda (The Way International?), you could become more open to the truth. Us non denominational folk have nothing to loose, looking at scripture straight up. Just taking it for what it says.

[Deleted User] · January 2019

@Dave_L said:

Why did YOU not just simply answer in simple plain terms the questions I had asked YOU concerning YOUR use of that expression in YOUR earlier post?? I would think, such simple plain answer would have been more helpful and better than quoting the article.

If you had no agenda (The Way International?), you could become more open to the truth. Us non denominational folk have nothing to loose, looking at scripture straight up. Just taking it for what it says.

As for "The Way International", my connections with that group are 30 years back, and I left that outfit because I confronted false doctrine and practice.I certainly have no agenda connected with them.

As for "us non-denominational folk", I have not been affiliated with any denomination and lived as a non-denominational Christian, enjoying the liberty from creeds for many decades ... to which my posts in many topics here testify rather clearly.

Dave_L · January 2019

@Wolfgang said:

@Dave_L said:

Why did YOU not just simply answer in simple plain terms the questions I had asked YOU concerning YOUR use of that expression in YOUR earlier post?? I would think, such simple plain answer would have been more helpful and better than quoting the article.

If you had no agenda (The Way International?), you could become more open to the truth. Us non denominational folk have nothing to loose, looking at scripture straight up. Just taking it for what it says.

As for "The Way International", my connections with that group are 30 years back, and I left that outfit because I confronted false doctrine and practice.I certainly have no agenda connected with them.

As for "us non-denominational folk", I have not been affiliated with any denomination and lived as a non-denominational Christian, enjoying the liberty from creeds for many decades ... to which my posts in many topics here testify rather clearly.

I'm glad you saw through the Way. They still poison minds and we need to be sure you are free from them in that regard too. The ecumenical creeds are a good antidote if you familiarize yourself with them. They are spot on having withstood the test of time.

[Deleted User] · January 2019

@Dave_L said:
I'm glad you saw through the Way. They still poison minds and we need to be sure you are free from them in that regard too. The ecumenical creeds are a good antidote if you familiarize yourself with them. They are spot on having withstood the test of time.

I don't think the church creeds are any good antitode ... and I am quite familiar with them since I grew up with them in a denominational church. Not much different from The Way International in many regards, in some even worse.

By the way, questioning the denominational Trinity doctrine did not originate with The Way International, there have been groups of Christians in ancient times and throughout history as well as in modern days who held to the Biblical truth of only One Single (not Triple/ "Triune") God instead of going the creedal route

Homeskillet · January 2019

@Dave_L said:
Quotes from early Christian writers affirming distinct Persons of the one God who coexisted eternally before the Roman Catholic Church:

140 AD Aristides “[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit” (Apology 16).

150 AD Justin Martyr “God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: ‘Let us make man after our image and likeness’ . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this Offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62).

150 AD Polycarp of Smyrna “I praise you for all things, I bless you, I glorify you, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, with whom, to you and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14).

180 AD Irenaeus “But the Son, eternally co-existing with the Father, from of old, yea, from the beginning, always reveals the Father to Angels, Archangels, Powers, Virtues…” (Against Heresies, Book II, ch. 30, section 9)

180 AD Irenaeus “It was not angels, therefore, who made us, nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor any one else, except the Word of the Lord, nor any Power remotely distant from the Father of all things. For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself
determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, “Let Us make man after Our image and likeness; ” [Gen. 1:26]” (Against Heresies 4:20:1).

190 AD Clement Of Alexandria “I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father.” (Stromata, Book V, ch. 14)

190 AD Clement Of Alexandria “When [John] says: ‘What was from the beginning [1 John 1:1],’ he touches upon the generation without beginning of the Son, who is co-equal with the Father. ‘Was,’ therefore, is indicative of an eternity without a beginning, just as the Word Himself, that is the Son, being one with the Father in regard to equality of substance, is eternal and uncreated. That the word always existed is signified by the saying: ‘In the beginning was the Word’ [John 1:1].” (fragment in Eusebius History, Bk 6 Ch 14; Jurgens, p. 188)

200 AD Tertullian “All the Scriptures give clear proof of the Trinity, and it is from these that our principle is deduced…the distinction of the Trinity is quite clearly displayed.” (Against Praxeas, ch 11)

200 AD Tertullian “Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are, one essence, not one Person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are One’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of Being not singularity of number” (Against Praxeas, 25)
225 AD

Origen “Nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification.” (De Principis, Book I, ch. 3, section 7)

Source: Encyclopedia of Cults and New Religions

BY J. WILLIAMSIN. (n.d.). Oneness Pentecostalism and Their False Doctrine of Modalism.

These are very weak, and, we could just as easily quote numerous ECF who have been identified as “modalists” (although Oneness Pentecostals generally do not use this label to describe their Godhead beliefs)...such as Ignatius.

I am actually surprised that the author appeals to many of these early writers since they had many far out beliefs (cf., e.g., Justin Martyr)...not to mention that Tertullian identified Oneness believers as “the majority of believers” in his day (I have his work “Against Praxeas”). On & on I could go, but, for now, see this link (I have the tons more data, but just popped in to read a little).

https://www.onenesspentecostal.com/trinhistory.htm

My open rejoinder to James White also details early beliefs in Oneness. Link below.

https://apostolicacademics.com/2016/03/02/response-to-dr-james-white/

Dave_L · January 2019

@Homeskillet said:

@Dave_L said:
Quotes from early Christian writers affirming distinct Persons of the one God who coexisted eternally before the Roman Catholic Church:

140 AD Aristides “[Christians] are they who, above every people of the Earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit” (Apology 16).

150 AD Justin Martyr “God speaks in the creation of man with the very same design, in the following words: ‘Let us make man after our image and likeness’ . . . I shall quote again the words narrated by Moses himself, from which we can indisputably learn that [God] conversed with someone numerically distinct from himself and also a rational being. . . . But this Offspring who was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 62).

150 AD Polycarp of Smyrna “I praise you for all things, I bless you, I glorify you, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, with whom, to you and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14).

180 AD Irenaeus “But the Son, eternally co-existing with the Father, from of old, yea, from the beginning, always reveals the Father to Angels, Archangels, Powers, Virtues…” (Against Heresies, Book II, ch. 30, section 9)

180 AD Irenaeus “It was not angels, therefore, who made us, nor who formed us, neither had angels power to make an image of God, nor any one else, except the Word of the Lord, nor any Power remotely distant from the Father of all things. For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself
determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, “Let Us make man after Our image and likeness; ” [Gen. 1:26]” (Against Heresies 4:20:1).

190 AD Clement Of Alexandria “I understand nothing else than the Holy Trinity to be meant; for the third is the Holy Spirit, and the Son is the second, by whom all things were made according to the will of the Father.” (Stromata, Book V, ch. 14)

190 AD Clement Of Alexandria “When [John] says: ‘What was from the beginning [1 John 1:1],’ he touches upon the generation without beginning of the Son, who is co-equal with the Father. ‘Was,’ therefore, is indicative of an eternity without a beginning, just as the Word Himself, that is the Son, being one with the Father in regard to equality of substance, is eternal and uncreated. That the word always existed is signified by the saying: ‘In the beginning was the Word’ [John 1:1].” (fragment in Eusebius History, Bk 6 Ch 14; Jurgens, p. 188)

200 AD Tertullian “All the Scriptures give clear proof of the Trinity, and it is from these that our principle is deduced…the distinction of the Trinity is quite clearly displayed.” (Against Praxeas, ch 11)

200 AD Tertullian “Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are, one essence, not one Person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are One’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of Being not singularity of number” (Against Praxeas, 25)
225 AD

Origen “Nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification.” (De Principis, Book I, ch. 3, section 7)

Source: Encyclopedia of Cults and New Religions

BY J. WILLIAMSIN. (n.d.). Oneness Pentecostalism and Their False Doctrine of Modalism.

These are very weak, and, we could just as easily quote numerous ECF who have been identified as “modalists” (although Oneness Pentecostals generally do not use this label to describe their Godhead beliefs)...such as Ignatius.

I am actually surprised that the author appeals to many of these early writers since they had many far out beliefs (cf., e.g., Justin Martyr)...not to mention that Tertullian identified Oneness believers as “the majority of believers” in his day (I have his work “Against Praxeas”). On & on I could go, but, for now, see this link (I have the tons more data, but just popped in to read a little).

https://www.onenesspentecostal.com/trinhistory.htm

My open rejoinder to James White also details early beliefs in Oneness. Link below.

https://apostolicacademics.com/2016/03/02/response-to-dr-james-white/

You appear to be spamming this site baiting others to visit your site. And not offering solid proof in place of opinion for your claims.

Dave_L · January 2019

@Wolfgang said:

@Dave_L said:
I'm glad you saw through the Way. They still poison minds and we need to be sure you are free from them in that regard too. The ecumenical creeds are a good antidote if you familiarize yourself with them. They are spot on having withstood the test of time.

I don't think the church creeds are any good antitode ... and I am quite familiar with them since I grew up with them in a denominational church. Not much different from The Way International in many regards, in some even worse.

By the way, questioning the denominational Trinity doctrine did not originate with The Way International, there have been groups of Christians in ancient times and throughout history as well as in modern days who held to the Biblical truth of only One Single (not Triple/ "Triune") God instead of going the creedal route

You still hold much in common with them.

[Deleted User] · January 2019

@Dave_L said:

@Wolfgang said:
I don't think the church creeds are any good antidote ... and I am quite familiar with them since I grew up with them in a denominational church. Not much different from The Way International in many regards, in some even worse.

By the way, questioning the denominational Trinity doctrine did not originate with The Way International, there have been groups of Christians in ancient times and throughout history as well as in modern days who held to the Biblical truth of only One Single (not Triple/ "Triune") God instead of going the creedal route

You still hold much in common with them.

Well, aside from not believing in the Trinity, I am not sure what "much" I supposedly hold in common anymore with them ...on the other hand, not having had any contact for 30 years, I am not familiar with what they currently even believe on a number of what I would regard important subjects. And as for not believing in the Trinity, there are and have been other Christian groups who also do not believe in the Trinity and church creeds ...

Dave_L · January 2019

@Wolfgang said:

@Dave_L said:

@Wolfgang said:
I don't think the church creeds are any good antidote ... and I am quite familiar with them since I grew up with them in a denominational church. Not much different from The Way International in many regards, in some even worse.

By the way, questioning the denominational Trinity doctrine did not originate with The Way International, there have been groups of Christians in ancient times and throughout history as well as in modern days who held to the Biblical truth of only One Single (not Triple/ "Triune") God instead of going the creedal route

You still hold much in common with them.

Well, aside from not believing in the Trinity, I am not sure what "much" I supposedly hold in common anymore with them ...on the other hand, not having had any contact for 30 years, I am not familiar with what they currently even believe on a number of what I would regard important subjects. And as for not believing in the Trinity, there are and have been other Christian groups who also do not believe in the Trinity and church creeds ...

I don't think you can overcome any errors unless you accept the truth. And the ecumenical creeds serve as a standard to align us with scripture. We always choose a creed to align with, whether true or false. But the ecumenical creeds have survived the test of time until this day, or they would not exist, or remain unchanged, as they are.

[Deleted User] · January 2019

@Dave_L said:

@Wolfgang said:
Well, aside from not believing in the Trinity, I am not sure what "much" I supposedly hold in common anymore with them ...on the other hand, not having had any contact for 30 years, I am not familiar with what they currently even believe on a number of what I would regard important subjects. And as for not believing in the Trinity, there are and have been other Christian groups who also do not believe in the Trinity and church creeds ...

I don't think you can overcome any errors unless you accept the truth.

I think so as well ...

And the ecumenical creeds serve as a standard to align us with scripture.

No, they don't. They solely state the beliefs of the denominational churches and any individuals who have made the creeds the foundation and basis of what they believe to be the truth.
The creeds are not normative outside the denominations (or any individuals adhering to them)

We always choose a creed to align with, whether true or false. But the ecumenical creeds have survived the test of time until this day, or they would not exist, or remain unchanged, as they are.

These creeds have survived as long as they have because their proponents have had majority and political power in their support. Their error has been evident to those adhering more closely to Scripture rather than the church creeds.

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus · January 2019

@Wolfgang said:

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:

@Wolfgang said:
Just because I, my wife and my grandchild are mentioned within a same thought in a certain context, does NOT at all constitute that we are some kind of a "trinity".

Physically you have experienced God's design for family relationships.

Ok .. so what does that now mean as far as a belief in a Trinity-God?

A birth certificate documents a baby born to parents. Scripture "birth certificate" verses for Jesus document Mary being mother (human) and God being The Father. John 1:14 The Word (God) became flesh so God The Will in heaven became God The Father Psalm 2:7 Angelic birth announcement in Matthew 1:18-23 includes Immanuel "God with us" that fulfills Isaiah 7:14 prophetic birth announced hundreds of years earlier along with Isaiah 9:6 including: a son is born...Mighty God
When Jesus was asked in Matthew 22:36 "Which is the greatest commandment in the law ?" Jesus replied by quoting Deuteronomy 6:5 "Love the Lord you God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind" so every human being has three aspects for personal Love of God.

If I meet you in church (in a city or prison), I would greet you while Smiling: "God's Grace and Peace" plus "God Loves You" with a hand ready to shake yours. Thankful for God's change in me to see everyone alive as someone special to God, who desires an intense, intimate Love relationship with You

Are you - as your manner seems to be (several posts have shown it) - now without real Biblical answers to points raised and questions asked so that you now revert to a "person attack" and comment on your fantasy regarding my person?

Thankful for prompt to focus on praying plus biblical discussions. My apologies for my words being received as a personal attack (not have a way for you to see my tears).
What biblical point(s)/question(s) would you like me to explain/answer ?
Some of my Biblical questions for you are waiting for your responses: e.g.

What is "the mind of the Spirit" in Romans 8:27 ? If the Spirit is only power, how can it have a mind (intelligence) of its own ?
How does head and heel relate to seed in Genesis 3:15 ? What man can crush/destroy an unclean spirit (created by God who choose to sin) ?

@Wolfgang said:

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus said:
My heart senses hurt, which could include an authoritarian presence (anger) in your life, which has influenced (clouded) your view of God.

Since you are speaking of your heart, perhaps the person about whom you are sensing this is actually you and you are in fact looking in a mirror?

Thankful for mirrors Thankful for God searching hearts, which includes mine Thankful for Holy Spirit peacefully convicting me of specific sin(s), which allows me to confess ("same speak") them to God for His forgiveness (being redeemed by the Holy blood of Jesus) plus cleansing from unrighteousness Thankful can join Holy Spirit & Jesus in praying for our eyes & heart to be opened to truly worship God My apologies for Joyful words being received as an icy snowball per Proverbs 25:20 Looking in mirror reminded me about being unable to appreciate awesomeness of God's Love until I had dealt with deep hurts (sins) in my life Today words fail to express my wonder for the Holy Righteous fruit of the Spirit Galatians 5:22-23 Truly all aspects are one fruit, which includes daily communion & fellowship with God
Some of our discussions are proving Proverbs 18:22 (MEV) A fool has no delight in understanding, but in expressing his own heart.

God's design for Love is community truly loving each other. John 13:34-35
One is alone (difficult to truly express Love)
Two allows relationship: e.g. husband and wife become one
Three (or more) is community: e.g. Love one another as God Loves You

So then, what does this have to do with "God" being a Trinity-God?

Related question is: What is God's Love ? What does "God is Love" in 1 John 4:8, 16 mean to you ? Context of 1st John chapter 4 includes "love" in many sentences, which includes rationale for a Triune God.

One God choosing to implement three intelligent persona's with free will to choose Love shows Godly expression of Love. God's design is for every human to be intimately connected with/in God. Yet every human has free will choice to Love God or not.

Again, how does this relate to a Trinity-God? or show that "God" is actually a Trio of Three Gods?

What words can I use to describe what you believe is impossible ? Jesus = Man & God

Keep Smiling

Dave_L · January 2019

@Wolfgang said:

@Dave_L said:

@Wolfgang said:
Well, aside from not believing in the Trinity, I am not sure what "much" I supposedly hold in common anymore with them ...on the other hand, not having had any contact for 30 years, I am not familiar with what they currently even believe on a number of what I would regard important subjects. And as for not believing in the Trinity, there are and have been other Christian groups who also do not believe in the Trinity and church creeds ...

I don't think you can overcome any errors unless you accept the truth.

I think so as well ...

And the ecumenical creeds serve as a standard to align us with scripture.

No, they don't. They solely state the beliefs of the denominational churches and any individuals who have made the creeds the foundation and basis of what they believe to be the truth.
The creeds are not normative outside the denominations (or any individuals adhering to them)

We always choose a creed to align with, whether true or false. But the ecumenical creeds have survived the test of time until this day, or they would not exist, or remain unchanged, as they are.

These creeds have survived as long as they have because their proponents have had majority and political power in their support. Their error has been evident to those adhering more closely to Scripture rather than the church creeds.

You are not giving a fair assessment of the creeds. They only state with precision what the church believed along with the Apostles.

C Mc · January 2019

@C_M_ said:

@Wolfgang said:

@C_M_ said: 4) All three persons (Matt 1:20-23; 28:19, 20; Lk 1:35; 24:49; Jn 1:32-34; 20:21-22; Acts 1:3-5, 7-8; 28:23, 25; Rom 1:1-4; 15:30; 2 Cor 1:4-6; 13:14; 1 Thess 1:3-5; 5:18-19; Heb 3:7-12; 6:1-5; 10:15-22, 29-31; Jude 19-25; Rev 1:4-6; 4:1-5:12; 14:6-13; 22:1-17).

There is NOT even one passage listed which would indicate or prove a Trinity God ... absolutely NONE.

When John describes the qualities of Christian life in his first pastoral letter, he repeatedly uses an expression born “of God” (1 John 3:9,10; 4:4,6,7; 5:1,4,18). He also repeatedly mentions we should remain “in God” (1 John 2:5,6,27,28; 3:24; 4:13,15,16).

What exactly is he talking about? Is he referring to the same thing as we read in Matthew 28:19?
The baptismal formula in Matt 28:19 emphasizes the three persons of God, and yet we are baptized in one name.

What exactly does it say about God’s character, nature, and values?

There is one God in the Bible – that is a fundamental confession of faith. There are no other gods, and if we enter into a living relationship with God, we do not have nor create other gods (Deut 6:4; Ex 20:3; Mark 12:29).

Yet Jesus speaks of God as of three persons. There are other places in the Bible where God presents Himself in the plural (Gen 1:26; 11:7; Isa 6:8).

How can we interpret the fact that one God is three persons in reality?

It is a known fact that the number three is an important Biblical number. For example:

God called Samuel three times (1 Sam 3:2-14); God is “holy, holy, holy” (Is 6:3)

Jesus was tempted three times in the desert (Matt 4:1-4)

Jesus three times foretold His suffering (Matt 16:21; 17:12, 22, 23; 20:17-19)

On the third day, Jesus came out from the tomb (1 Cor. 15:4)

Three times Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him (John 21:15-17).

The list could go on and on.

The number three in the Biblical world conveys completion, perfection, and also implies a relationship. The perfect God who is complete and self-sufficient exists in three persons, all who relate to each other.

Look closely at 1 John. This fairly short letter (approximately 2500 words), John speaks a lot about God. He frequently refers to each of the three divine Persons in particular"

Father – (12 times)

Son – (22 times)

Spirit – (7 times)

He also refers to

Christ (24 times)

Jesus (13 times)

With the frequency, thus far of three Beings, speaks not only of a message but one of importance. Until next time let's look deeper into this little book for its overall message. CM

            ---------         ------         ---------     --------

Let me continue what I started to get a better handle on the little book of 1 JN's message.

In an attempt to provide some answers to the questions raised above, we explore the dynamics of this brief letter.

What exactly is he talking about? Is he referring to the same thing as we read in Matthew 28:19?
What exactly does it say about God’s character, nature, and values?
How can we interpret the fact that one God is three persons in reality?

Love, Light, and Truth (1 John)

Through three persons, God presents Himself as the God of relationships. That is why John claimed, “God is love” (1 John 4:8,16). Interestingly:

“God” (64 times)
“Is” (103 times)
“Love” (46 times) are the most frequently used words in 1 John.

According to John, love does not exist without relating well to one another (1 John 3:17; 4:20). John starts his epistle (similar to his Gospel) with a reference to the beginning (perhaps echoing Gen 1:1) of God’s plans with this earth (1 John 1:1).

Some Christians like to call God’s original plan with humans the Story of Redemption. Long before our world was created, the Godhead met and roles were assigned to each of the three “team” members. The plan of One (Jesus) becoming the Messiah was laid out so that under every possible circumstance, God could continue to give life not only as the Creator but also as a Redeemer.

In the beginning, they (the Godhead) created humans to rejoice in fellowship with each other, the new extended family of the Godhead. He created us in His image (Gen 1:26). Because of this, loving community allows us to pour out His/Their love on those around us. God made us in such a way that we could love them and love one another, thus mirroring His love. Stay tuned...CM

                            *******************************

[Deleted User] · January 2019

@Dave_L said:
You are not giving a fair assessment of the creeds. They only state with precision what the church believed along with the Apostles.

In reference to the Trinity topic, the creeds only state what some of the church due to influences by certain church fathers believed, and certainly not what the apostles believed. Jesus and his apostles knew nothing and never taught anything about a "Holy Trinity" / "Three Persons Godhead", etc ...

Dave_L · January 2019

@Wolfgang said:

@Dave_L said:
You are not giving a fair assessment of the creeds. They only state with precision what the church believed along with the Apostles.

In reference to the Trinity topic, the creeds only state what some of the church due to influences by certain church fathers believed, and certainly not what the apostles believed. Jesus and his apostles knew nothing and never taught anything about a "Holy Trinity" / "Three Persons Godhead", etc ...

The Apostles taught the trinity. Especially John. He even said you have the spirit of Antichrist if you deny both the Father and the Son. “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” (1 John 2:22) (KJV 1900)

You try to skirt this by redefining "Son". But John calls the Son "God" in John 1:1ff.

[Deleted User] · January 2019

@Dave_L said:

@Wolfgang said:
In reference to the Trinity topic, the creeds only state what some of the church due to influences by certain church fathers believed, and certainly not what the apostles believed. Jesus and his apostles knew nothing and never taught anything about a "Holy Trinity" / "Three Persons Godhead", etc ...

The Apostles taught the trinity.

Where? If they did, they taught a different doctrine from what Jesus had taught them ...

Especially John. He even said you have the spirit of Antichrist if you deny both the Father and the Son. “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” (1 John 2:22) (KJV 1900)

Actually, Trinitarians are the ones who deny the Son ... they have replaced the only begotten Son of God, the man Christ Jesus, with "a begotten God", "a God-man", etc.

You try to skirt this by redefining "Son". But John calls the Son "God" in John 1:1ff.

Sorry Dave_L, YOU are the one who misinterprets John in John 1:1ff ... because John never wrote what you claim he wrote. John did nowhere call Jesus or the only begotten Son "God"

Dave_L · January 2019

@Wolfgang said:

@Dave_L said:

@Wolfgang said:
In reference to the Trinity topic, the creeds only state what some of the church due to influences by certain church fathers believed, and certainly not what the apostles believed. Jesus and his apostles knew nothing and never taught anything about a "Holy Trinity" / "Three Persons Godhead", etc ...

The Apostles taught the trinity.

Where? If they did, they taught a different doctrine from what Jesus had taught them ...

Especially John. He even said you have the spirit of Antichrist if you deny both the Father and the Son. “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” (1 John 2:22) (KJV 1900)

Actually, Trinitarians are the ones who deny the Son ... they have replaced the only begotten Son of God, the man Christ Jesus, with "a begotten God", "a God-man", etc.

You try to skirt this by redefining "Son". But John calls the Son "God" in John 1:1ff.

Sorry Dave_L, YOU are the one who misinterprets John in John 1:1ff ... because John never wrote what you claim he wrote. John did nowhere call Jesus or the only begotten Son "God"

John 1:1 teaches the Father and Word/ Son are distinct persons. Co-eternal as God. Many other passages where the Son speaks to the Father, visa versa. The Holy Spirit is God according to Acts and tells people what to do or not to do. Only for the avid bible student free from cultic denominational biases.

[Deleted User] · January 2019

@Dave_L said:
John 1:1 teaches the Father and Word/ Son are distinct persons. Co-eternal as God. Many other passages where the Son speaks to the Father, visa versa. The Holy Spirit is God according to Acts and tells people what to do or not to do. Only for the avid bible student free from cultic denominational biases.

What you interpret into Scripture in order to justify the unbiblical Trinity doctrine is actually reflecting an almost cultic denominational bias, same as I have often heard - for example - from RCC members and also Lutherans.

Dave_L · January 2019

@Wolfgang said:

@Dave_L said:
John 1:1 teaches the Father and Word/ Son are distinct persons. Co-eternal as God. Many other passages where the Son speaks to the Father, visa versa. The Holy Spirit is God according to Acts and tells people what to do or not to do. Only for the avid bible student free from cultic denominational biases.

What you interpret into Scripture in order to justify the unbiblical Trinity doctrine is actually reflecting an almost cultic denominational bias, same as I have often heard - for example - from RCC members and also Lutherans.

But Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church. And we are still here with the collected body of truth preserved in the creeds and confessions, and you are merely beating the air with your fists.

Bill_Coley · January 2019

POST DELETED BECAUSE OF REPETITION. SORRY!

The History of Trinity (Reference facts only)

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Let me continue what I started to get a better handle on the little book of 1 JN's message.

Love, Light, and Truth (1 John)

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