A SCRIPTURE based discussion of the Trinity

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 1 Hence to me, Acts 5:29-32 reads => But Peter and the apostles answered and said, “It is necessary to obey אלהים God rather than men! The אלהים God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. This one אלהים God has exalted to his right hand as Leader and Savior to grant repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom אלהים God has given to those who obey him.”

@Bill_Coley August 2 Regardless of the Hebrew Bible words for "God" you import into your interpretation of the Acts 5 text, the meaning remains the same: God raised Jesus, whom others had killed, to be "Leader and Savior." Who had died? Jesus. Who raised the one who had died? God. If Peter believed Jesus was God - if he believed any of the other Hebrew Bible words for "God" changed the plain meaning of his stated distinction between God and the one God raised - Peter could have said so, but he didn't. He said - and this is what the text says, not my "faith belief" - God raised Jesus, which presents a clear distinction between the one raised (Jesus) and the one who raised him (God).

If Peter & the apostles believed One Holy יהוה אלהים God = יהוה Father & יהוה Jesus & יהוה Breath The Holy (three distinct voices in One plural אלהים God of our Jewish fathers), then my reading of Acts 5:29-32 is truthfully consistent with belief of Jewish Peter & Jewish apostles so text did not need any other words. The text concisely says => all of plural יהוה אלהים God raised up יהוה Jesus (so יהוה Jesus participated in resurrection along with יהוה Father & יהוה Breath The Holy), which reminds about all of plural יהוה אלהים God created physical realm out of nothing.

To me, "the plain meaning of his stated distinction between God and the one God raised" expresses your study result "faith belief" that Jesus is NOT God (passive recipient of being raised up: does not agree with nature of God's Love ❤️ that cannot force Love ❤️choice), which would have been expressed using different Jewish words to express passive recipient distinction by Jewish Peter & Jewish apostles.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 1 If believe Jesus is NOT God, then "faith belief" includes Jesus lying in John 10:17-18 (so Jesus sinned thus cannot be Holy Savior for anyone else). The "faith belief" argument of Jesus being The Anointed One from God knowingly having God ability/authority given to Jesus, which has NOT been given to any other human => reads to me as fantasy from one who believes Jesus is NOT God, which feels partial when want to believe exalted Jesus is a special Lord, but denies who Jesus simply was/is/will be.

@Bill_Coley August 2 To my reading of the verses, there is nothing in John 10.17-18 that contradicts my belief about Jesus, or that makes Jesus out to be a liar. Please cite the specific portions of the verses in which you contend my belief about Jesus means he lied.

Please explain how Jesus knows his choice to lay down his human life & his choice to take possession of human body again in John 10:17-18, consistent with your "faith belief" God raised Jesus => Jesus did not have ability to take possession of human body again.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 1 To me, Philippians 2:5-11 reads => Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of אלהים God, did not consider being equal with אלהים God something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also אלהים God exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה Lord, to the glory of אלהים God the Father.

@Bill_Coley August 2 To you and your faith belief.

@Bill_Coley August 2 The Philippians text is one of the few - but I acknowledge, difficult - biblical challenges to my point of view about Jesus (John's prologue, the pre-existence material, and Thomas' "My Lord and my God" being among the few others). I'm confessional about the challenges those sections create for me. My best response at this point in my spiritual journey is that WHATEVER those sections say about Jesus MUST be consistent with the message about him presented in the rest of the New Testament. It cannot be true that some passages accurately say Jesus is God, while all the others accurately say Jesus is not God. There must be one and ONLY one accurate message about Jesus common to all of them. Given that to my reading, the VAST majority of texts say Jesus is NOT God, in my view it must be true that those texts which appear to say Jesus is God mean something other than what they appear to mean. Otherwise there is an irreconcilable conflict in the biblical text.

Thus far my scripture text study has not encountered a single verse that says Jesus is NOT God (simply NOT what any text says). Searching LEB for phrase "Jesus is not God" finds nothing. Searching LEB for Jesus NEAR not NEAR (God,Lord) finds 12 verses (search results Bold in passages):

And they sailed to the region of the Gerasenes, which is opposite Galilee. And as he got out on the land, a certain man from the town met him who had demons and for a considerable time had not worn clothes and did not live in a house, but among the tombs. And when he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before him, and said with a loud voice, “What do I have to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me!” For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. (For it had seized him many times, and he was bound with chains and shackles and was guarded, and breaking the bonds he would be driven by the demon into the deserted places.) So Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion,” because many demons had entered into him. And they began imploring him that he would not order them to depart into the abyss. Now there was a large herd of pigs feeding there on the hill, and they implored him that he would permit them to enter into those pigs. And he permitted them. So the demons came out of the man and entered into the pigs, and the herd rushed headlong down the steep slope into the lake and were drowned. And when the herdsmen saw what had happened, they fled and reported it in the town and in the countryside. So they went out to see what had happened, and they came to Jesus and found the man from whom the demons had gone out sitting there clothed and in his right mind, at the feet of Jesus, and they were afraid. And those who had seen it reported to them how the man who had been demon-possessed had been healed. And all the people of the surrounding region of the Gerasenes asked him to depart from them, because they had been seized with great fear. So he got into the boat and returned. And the man from whom the demons had gone out was begging him to stay with him, but he sent him away, saying, “Return to your home and tell all that God has done for you.” And he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole town all that Jesus had done for him. (Luke 8:26-39 LEB) that has Jesus commanding the man to tell all that אלהים God has done => Jesus is in One Holy יהוה אלהים God

Then the feast of the Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the Portico of Solomon. So the Jews surrounded him and began to say to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly!” Jesus answered them, “I told you and you do not believe! The deeds that I do in the name of my Father, these testify about me. But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep! My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.” Then the Jews picked up stones again so that they could stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good deeds from the Father. For which one of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “We are not going to stone you concerning a good deed, but concerning blasphemy, and because you, although you are a man, make yourself to be God!” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? If he called them ‘gods’ to whom the word of God came—and the scripture cannot be broken—do you say about he whom the Father set apart and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I do not do the deeds of my Father, do not believe me. But if I am doing them, even if you do not believe me, believe the deeds, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” So they were seeking again to seize him, and he departed out of their hand. (John 10:22-39 LEB) that shows hypocritical Jewish religious leaders believed Jesus deserved to die for "although you are a man, make yourself to be God!" => Jesus is in One Holy יהוה אלהים God

Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. (Now it was Mary who anointed the Lord with perfumed oil and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick.) So the sisters sent word to him, saying, “Lord, behold, the one whom you love is sick.” And when he heard it, Jesus said, “This sickness is not to death, but for the glory of God, in order that the Son of God may be glorified through it.” (Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus.) So when he heard that he was sick, then he remained in the place where he was two days. Then after this he said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.” The disciples said to him, “Rabbi, the Jews were seeking just now to stone you, and are you going there again?” Jesus replied, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks around in the daylight, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. But if anyone walks around in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him. He said these things, and after this he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I am going so that I can awaken him.” So the disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will get well.” (Now Jesus had been speaking about his death, but they thought that he was speaking about real sleep.) So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus has died, and I am glad for your sake that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.” Then Thomas (the one who is called Didymus) said to his fellow disciples, “Let us go also, so that we may die with him.” So when he arrived, Jesus found he had already been four days in the tomb. (Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about fifteen stadia. So many of the Jews came to Martha and Mary in order to console them concerning their brother.) Now Martha, when she heard that Jesus was coming, went to meet him, but Mary was sitting in the house. So Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever you ask God, God will grant you.” Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die forever. Do you believe this?” She said to him, “Yes, Lord, I have believed that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who comes into the world.” (John 11:1-27 LEB) that shows believing in Jesus as יהוה Lord אלהים God results in seeing the Glory of אלהים God (revealed when Lazarus responded to command of יהוה Lord Jesus to come forth after death 4 days earlier)

Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another, for the one who loves someone else has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit murder, you shall not steal, you shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are summed up in this statement: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does not commit evil against a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. And do this because you know the time, that it is already the hour for you to wake up from sleep. For our salvation is nearer now than when we believed. The night is far gone, and the day has drawn near. Therefore let us throw off the deeds of darkness and put on the weapons of light. Let us live decently, as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and licentiousness, not in strife and jealousy. But put on the Lord Jesus Christ and do not make provision for the desires of the flesh. (Romans 13:8-14 LEB) that reads to me as put on the יהוה Lord Jesus Christ (Messiah) => Jesus is in One Holy יהוה אלהים God

Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? If to others I am not an apostle, yet indeed I am to you, for you are my seal of apostleship in the Lord. My defense to those who examine me is this: Do we not have the right to eat and drink? Do we not have the right to take along a sister as wife, like the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? Or do only I and Barnabas not have the right to refrain from working? Who ever serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Who shepherds a flock and does not drink from the milk of the flock? I am not saying these things according to a human perspective. Or does the law not also say these things? For in the law of Moses it is written, “You must not muzzle an ox while it is threshing.” It is not about oxen God is concerned, is it? Or doubtless does he speak for our sake? For it is written for our sake, because the one who plows ought to plow in hope and the one who threshes ought to do so in hope of a share. If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too great a thing if we reap material things from you? If others share this right over you, do we not do so even more? Yet we have not made use of this right, but we endure all things, in order that we may not cause any hindrance to the gospel of Christ. Do you not know that those performing the holy services eat the things from the temple, and those attending to the altar have a share with the altar? In the same way also the Lord ordered those who proclaim the gospel to live from the gospel. But I have not made use of any of these rights. And I am not writing these things in order that it may be thus with me. For it would be better to me rather to die than for anyone to deprive me of my reason for boasting. For if I proclaim the gospel, it is not to me a reason for boasting, for necessity is imposed on me. For woe is to me if I do not proclaim the gospel. For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward, but if I do so unwillingly, I have been entrusted with a stewardship. What then is my reward? That when I proclaim the gospel, I may offer the gospel free of charge, in order not to make full use of my right in the gospel. For although I am free from all people, I have enslaved myself to all, in order that I may gain more. I have become like a Jew to the Jews, in order that I may gain the Jews. To those under the law I became as under the law (although I myself am not under the law) in order that I may gain those under the law. To those outside the law I became as outside the law (although I am not outside the law of God, but subject to the law of Christ) in order that I may gain those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, in order that I may gain the weak. I have become all things to all people, in order that by all means I may save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, in order that I may become a participant with it. Do you not know that those who run in the stadium all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. And everyone who competes exercises self-control in all things. Thus those do so in order that they may receive a perishable crown, but we an imperishable one. Therefore I run in this way, not as running aimlessly; I box in this way, not as beating the air. But I discipline my body and subjugate it, lest somehow after preaching to others, I myself should become disqualified. (1 Corinthians 9:1-27 LEB) that shows Jesus is יהוה Lord to Paul (Saul)

Because of this, since we have this ministry, just as we have been shown mercy, we do not lose heart, but we have renounced shameful hidden things, not behaving with craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but with the open proclamation of the truth commending ourselves to every person’s conscience before God. But if indeed our gospel is veiled, it is veiled among those who are perishing, among whom the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, so that they would not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not proclaim ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your slaves for the sake of Jesus. For God who said, “Light will shine out of darkness,” is the one who has shined in our hearts for the enlightenment of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. (2 Corinthians 4:1-6 LEB) that also shows Jesus is יהוה Lord

Finally, my brothers, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is not troublesome to me, but is a safeguard for you. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the mutilation. For we are the circumcision, the ones who worship by the Spirit of God and boast in Christ Jesus and do not put confidence in the flesh, although I could have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else thinks to put confidence in the flesh, I can do so more: (Philippians 3:1-4 LEB) for me helps me be Rejoicing in my יהוה Lord while worshipping אלהים God

And because of this we also give thanks to God constantly, that when you received God’s word that you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it truly is, the word of God, which also is at work in you who believe. For you became imitators, brothers, of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus, because you also suffered the same things at the hands of your own people, just as they themselves did also at the hands of the Jews, who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and who persecuted us, and who are not pleasing to God and are opposed to all people, hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles in order that they may be saved, so that they always fill up their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the end. But when we were made orphans by separation from you, brothers, for a short time (in face, not in heart), we were even more eager with great desire to see your face, because we wanted to come to you—I, Paul, on more than one occasion—and Satan hindered us. For who is our hope or joy or crown of boasting? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at his coming? For you are our glory and joy. (1 Thessalonians 2:13-20 LEB) that reminds me יהוה Lord Jesus is coming soon

We ought to give thanks to God always concerning you, brothers, just as it is fitting, because your faith is flourishing and the love of each one of you all toward one another is increasing so that we ourselves boast in you in the churches of God about your patient endurance and faith in all your persecutions and the afflictions that you are enduring, a proof of the righteous judgment of God, so that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, on behalf of which also you are suffering, since it is righteous in the sight of God to pay back those who are afflicting you with affliction, and to you who are being afflicted, rest with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels, with burning flame giving punishment to those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus, who will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his strength, whenever he should come to be glorified on that day by his saints and to be marveled at by all who believe, because our testimony was believed among you, for which purpose we also pray always for you, that you may be considered worthy of the calling of our God, and he might fulfill every desire for goodness and work of faith with power, in order that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Thessalonians 1:3-12 LEB) where my scripture "faith belief" appreciates segment within one sentence of 2 Thessalonians 1:3-12 that is numbered 2 Thessalonians 1:8 => burning flame giving punishment to those who do not know אלהים God and who do not obey the gospel of our יהוה Lord Jesus (my human desire is no one choosing eternal distinction from Holy God's Love ❤️ so want to truly Love ❤️everyone as God loves ❤️)

My brothers, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with partiality. For if someone enters into your assembly in fine clothing with a gold ring on his finger, and a poor person in filthy clothing also enters, and you look favorably on the one wearing the fine clothing and you say, “Be seated here in a good place,” and to the poor person you say, “You stand or be seated there by my footstool,” have you not made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? Listen, my dear brothers! Did not God choose the poor of the world to be rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him? But you have dishonored the poor! Are not the rich exploiting you and they themselves dragging you into the courts? Do they themselves not blaspheme the good name of the one to whom you belong? However, if you carry out the royal law according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and thus are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law but stumbles in one point only has become guilty of all of it. For the one who said “Do not commit adultery” also said “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. Thus speak and thus act as those who are going to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is merciless to the one who has not practiced mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. (James 2:1-13 LEB) that is another reminder to Love ❤️ everyone as my יהוה Lord Jesus Christ Loves ❤️(desires everyone to choose God's Love ❤️being most important, shows in actions & words)

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to determine if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God, and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. You are from God, little children, and have conquered them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world and the world listens to them. We are from God. The one who knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit. Dear friends, let us love one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been fathered by God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love. By this the love of God is revealed in us: that God sent his one and only Son into the world in order that we may live through him. In this is love: not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Dear friends, if God loved us in this way, we also ought to love one another. No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God resides in us and his love is perfected in us. By this we know that we reside in him and he in us: that he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God resides in him and he in God. And we have come to know and have believed the love that God has in us. God is love, and the one who resides in love resides in God, and God resides in him. By this love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment, because just as that one is, so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear includes punishment, and the one who is afraid has not been perfected in love. We love, because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar, for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen is not able to love God whom he has not seen. And this is the commandment we have from him: that the one who loves God should love his brother also. Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been fathered by God, and everyone who loves the father also loves the child fathered by him. By this we know that we love the children of God: whenever we love God and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God: that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome, because everyone who is fathered by God conquers the world. And this is the victory which has conquered the world: our faith. (1 John 4:1-5:4 LEB) => Jesus is in One Holy יהוה אלהים God

And I saw an angel descending from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he seized the dragon—the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan—and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it above him, in order that he could not deceive the nations again until the thousand years are completed. After these things it is necessary for him to be released for a short time. And I saw thrones, and they sat down on them, and authority to judge was granted to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and did not receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand, and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection. Over this person the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison and he will go out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to assemble them for battle, whose number is like the sand of the sea. And they went up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the fortified camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and consumed them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet also are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:1-10 LEB)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 1 If אלהים God truly knows Jesus is יהוה Lord, would אלהים God be righteously angry with one teaching Jesus is NOT יהוה Lord ?

@Bill_Coley August 2 And if אלהים God truly knows Jesus is NOT יהוה Lord, would אלהים God be righteously angry with one teaching Jesus IS יהוה Lord?... (Not much of an argument, is it?)

“Behold, I am coming quickly, and my reward is with me, to repay each one according to what his deeds are! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” Blessed are the ones who wash their robes, so that their authority will be over the tree of life and they may enter into the city through the gates. Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the sexually immoral people and the murderers and the idolaters and everyone who loves and who practices falsehood. “I, Jesus, sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” (Revelation 22:12-16 LEB) that has Outside argument point along with Jesus deity identification, which is truthfully consistent with Isaiah 44:6 => Thus says יהוה Yahweh, the king of Israel, and its redeemer, יהוה Yahweh of hosts: “I am the first, and I am the last, and there is no אלהים god besides me. (Isaiah 44:6 LEB with two Hebrew lemmas) has plural subject for "I am ..." (unique unity) & אלהים e-lo-HEEM (plural) god

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 1 One Holy יהוה אלהים God's Love ❤️ provides reason for me to keep replying while NOT welcoming you to your view. My Scripture text word meanings are literally based on One Holy יהוה אלהים God's original language inspiration. Searching Lexham Hebrew Bible (LHB) for <Root = lbs/he/אֱלֹהִים> INTERSECTS <Person God> finds 2,104 verses where 2,330 results are plural e-lo-HEEM while 51 are singular e-lo-HE (so my faith believes One God truthfully inspired thousands of plural e-lo-HEEM to describe One God).

@Bill_Coley August 2 It's certainly been true over the course of our many exchanges that I've welcomed you to your views FAR more frequently and consistently than you've welcomed me to mine. I think the disparity between our respective receptions of each other's disagreements with our own views is disappointing, but not surprising.

Observation is your welcome of me to my view is one of your ways to dismiss my "faith belief" study results. To me, if your "faith belief" study results about deity of Jesus is wrong (falsehood), then Revelation 22:15 outside destination comes to my mind so 🙏 praying for you to repent & choose Holy God's truth.

Keep Smiling 😊

Bill_Coley

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

If Peter & the apostles believed One Holy יהוה אלהים God = יהוה Father & יהוה Jesus & יהוה Breath The Holy (three distinct voices in One plural אלהים God of our Jewish fathers), then my reading of Acts 5:29-32 is truthfully consistent with belief of Jewish Peter & Jewish apostles so text did not need any other words. The text concisely says => all of plural יהוה אלהים God raised up יהוה Jesus (so יהוה Jesus participated in resurrection along with יהוה Father & יהוה Breath The Holy), which reminds about all of plural יהוה אלהים God created physical realm out of nothing.

Here you offer yet another tautology. "If Peter and the apostles believed what I believe about a one-but-plural God, then they would have reached the same conclusions about God that I have, and hence, would not have had to use any other words than they did."

The problems with that logic are at least two: 1) There is NO evidence, ESPECIALLY not in the Acts 5 text, that Peter and the other apostles believed what you believe about a one-but-plural God; and 2) even IF they believed about God what you believe about God, there is no way for us to know whether they would have reached the same conclusions as you have.

Your argument is therefore, AT BEST, untestable, but in my view, it is also not supported by the biblical text. Notice that in your paragraph you do nothing more than assume, with no supporting evidence, that Peter and the apostles agree with you. Hence, your argument is nothing more than a tautology: If Peter and the others agreed with me, then Peter and others would have agreed with me. I continue to find that a weak and uncompelling argument.

To me, "the plain meaning of his stated distinction between God and the one God raised" expresses your study result "faith belief" that Jesus is NOT God (passive recipient of being raised up: does not agree with nature of God's Love ❤️ that cannot force Love ❤️choice), which would have been expressed using different Jewish words to express passive recipient distinction by Jewish Peter & Jewish apostles.

Why I have so much trouble communicating this simple point to you is a great mystery to me. TO ANY READER OTHER THAN @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus: Is it clear to you that when I say my faith beliefs are products of, not precursors to my engagement with the biblical text, I mean that while I certainly do have faith beliefs, those beliefs come FROM - that is, AFTER I read - the biblical text, not before I read the text?

Jesus, a passive recipient of resurrection? Yes.

• Luke 9.22; John 2.22; Acts 2.24; Acts 13.30; Romans 4.25; Romans 6.4; Romans 7.4; Romans 8.34; Romans 10.9; 1 Corinthians 6.14; 1 Corinthians 15.4; 2 Corinthians 5.15

Clearly Jesus had accepted his fate and believed he would be raised, so there was no need for God to "force" a "Love ❤️choice."

Please explain how Jesus knows his choice to lay down his human life & his choice to take possession of human body again in John 10:17-18, consistent with your "faith belief" God raised Jesus => Jesus did not have ability to take possession of human body again.

Spiritual discernment and Jesus' intimacy with God explain how Jesus knew his choices and his destiny.

Now please answer the question I asked: Where in the John 10 text do you find support for your claim that my view about Jesus somehow makes him out to be a liar?

Thus far my scripture text study has not encountered a single verse that says Jesus is NOT God (simply NOT what any text says). Searching LEB for phrase "Jesus is not God" finds nothing. Searching LEB for Jesus NEAR not NEAR (God,Lord) finds 12 verses (search results Bold in passages):

This paragraph in your response is followed by more than 4,000 words of quoted New Testament text, most all of which, I guess, seek to prove that there is no Bible verse that says "Jesus is not God." You could have saved a lot of e-ink and us readers a lot of scrolling had you just asked me whether there is such a verse. As I have told you multiple times in the past, I know there is no such verse, just as there is no verse that says "Jesus is not a sand dune, a shoe lace, or a 3/8" socket wrench." Given that New Testament writers didn't believe Jesus was God, they had no reason to include such a verse, or other verses that listed all the things/people Jesus wasn't.

• When I say, "I drove my friend Pete to the store," do I ALSO have to say, "And I am not my friend Pete," or do you infer from the first sentence that I am not my friend Pete?
• When I say, "I just wrote a sermon for Sunday," do I ALSO have to say, "And I am not the sermon I just wrote," or do you infer from the first sentence that I am not the sermon?
• When Peter says "God raised Jesus," does he ALSO have to say, "And God is not the Jesus whom God raised," or do you infer from Peter's first sentence that God is not Jesus?

--- SKIPPING A SECTION OF YOUR POST DUE TO CONTENT OF FINAL SECTION ---

I was responding to each section of your post without looking ahead to later sections, but then chose to glance to the end, where I found this:

Observation is your welcome of me to my view is one of your ways to dismiss my "faith belief" study results. To me, if your "faith belief" study results about deity of Jesus is wrong (falsehood), then Revelation 22:15 outside destination comes to my mind so 🙏 praying for you to repent & choose Holy God's truth.

1) As I have told you before, my welcoming you to your views is one way I express respect for your views. I believe we can respect each other's views without agreeing with them, and that's certainly the case with your views about Jesus. I celebrate your faith and the place Christ has in your life. I am certain beyond doubt of your place in the Kingdom and around the throne of glory.

2) If I'm wrong, an "outside destination" for me comes to your mind? Seriously? Why not just say you think I'm going to hell?

You may pray for my repentance and my choice of "Holy God's truth," but you should also pray for someone else to come along and engage you in these forums, because I'm now done. Your judgmental spirit, which has been a subtle yet obvious contributor to many of your posts throughout our exchanges over these many months, is in rare and, to me, offensive form here. Sentiments such as the ones in your concluding paragraph are a clear violation of the spirit, if not also the letter, of the CD participant expectation that calls us to "criticize ideas, not people."

In multiple posts over the course of our exchanges, I've asked you to stop with the judgmental spirit. In response and on more than one occasion you seemed to confess your judgmental spirit and pledge to change. There were times I believed you had changed. The concluding paragraph of your most recent post makes clear that you haven't changed. So I must change... and exit our exchanges.

I will pray for you, too... though not about that "outside destination" thing; I know by faith that you don't have to worry about such an outcome.

C Mc

"Debates are useless and a more constructive form of discussion should take its place to deduce the most appropriate outcome of an issue." CM

[Deleted User]

Thus far my scripture text study has not encountered a single verse that says Jesus is NOT God (simply NOT what any text says). Searching LEB for phrase "Jesus is not God" finds nothing.

HA HA HA HA ... I suggest you do some serious and honest reading of Scripture text. There is not a single verse that say Jesus IS God either.

Eh, did you find some verse that says Moses is God in your clever Logos searches? Most likely you did ... so which voice of your "multi-voices-choir-God" is he?

Did your search bring up a result for "a human being IS God"? what about "a human being is not God"? Did the apostles in total ignorance or stupidity teach that Jesus was a man, a human being?

Your arguments and constant repetitions of your statements and adding "reproving citations of large portions of bible text" is worthless, as it has just about nothing to do with the actual topic at hand.

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 28 Peter and John also believed יהוה The Father is יהוה Lord God so believing יהוה Jesus is יהוה Lord God is consistent with John 14:1 command by יהוה Jesus => "Be Ye Believing in/to The God and/also in/to Me Be Ye Believing". One Holy יהוה God = יהוה Father & יהוה Jesus & יהוה Breath The Holy (three distinct voices in One plural unique God).

@Bill_Coley July 28 I welcome you to your views of the cited texts, but your views are clearly shaped by your faith beliefs more than the content of the texts themselves, which does not support your view. Yet again, as you have done on countless other occasions, you have added to the biblical text, I presume to support your view.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 1 One Holy יהוה אלהים God's Love ❤️ provides reason for me to keep replying while NOT welcoming you to your view. My Scripture text word meanings are literally based on One Holy יהוה אלהים God's original language inspiration. Searching Lexham Hebrew Bible (LHB) for <Root = lbs/he/אֱלֹהִים> INTERSECTS <Person God> finds 2,104 verses where 2,330 results are plural e-lo-HEEM while 51 are singular e-lo-HE (so my faith believes One God truthfully inspired thousands of plural e-lo-HEEM to describe One God).

@Bill_Coley August 2 It's certainly been true over the course of our many exchanges that I've welcomed you to your views FAR more frequently and consistently than you've welcomed me to mine. I think the disparity between our respective receptions of each other's disagreements with our own views is disappointing, but not surprising.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 2 Observation is your welcome of me to my view is one of your ways to dismiss my "faith belief" study results. To me, if your "faith belief" study results about deity of Jesus is wrong (falsehood), then Revelation 22:15 outside destination comes to my mind so 🙏 praying for you to repent & choose Holy God's truth.

@Bill_Coley August 3 1) As I have told you before, my welcoming you to your views is one way I express respect for your views. I believe we can respect each other's views without agreeing with them, and that's certainly the case with your views about Jesus. I celebrate your faith and the place Christ has in your life. I am certain beyond doubt of your place in the Kingdom and around the throne of glory.

Our exchanges show your study results still remain more important to you than my study results (where my studies include Holy God inspired truth in original languages and cultural context, primarily ancient Jewish). My testing of your study result "faith belief" ideas has simply not found any original language basis for your "clearly distinct" interpretations of English translated text. Also recognize you have the intellectual ability to learn about original languages, especially what does not translate well into English.

@Bill_Coley August 3 2) If I'm wrong, an "outside destination" for me comes to your mind? Seriously? Why not just say you think I'm going to hell?

Reason for me NOT welcoming you to your view is my loving desire for you NOT to go to hell (NOR anyone reading this discussion).

@Bill_Coley August 3 You may pray for my repentance and my choice of "Holy God's truth," but you should also pray for someone else to come along and engage you in these forums, because I'm now done. Your judgmental spirit, which has been a subtle yet obvious contributor to many of your posts throughout our exchanges over these many months, is in rare and, to me, offensive form here. Sentiments such as the ones in your concluding paragraph are a clear violation of the spirit, if not also the letter, of the CD participant expectation that calls us to "criticize ideas, not people."

My "judgment" is to Love ❤️you as One Holy יהוה אלהים God truly Loves ❤️ each of us (beyond human words to describe). My desire, like יהוה Lord Jesus, is for no human to choose an eternity of torment away from immense wonderful Holy Righteous Love ❤️ of the One plural unique God.

One of my college roommates committed suicide. Reading Climbing into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven by Michele Pulford gave me insight that every creature being tormented in hell really chose to Love ❤️ something other than One plural unique God the most. Also One Holy יהוה אלהים God's mercy and Love ❤️ is so incredible that a "dead being" (Michele), who knew she deserved eternal torment from 13 years of evil choices that included her suicide (massive overdose with hours before her body would be found), was given an opportunity in hell to agree with אלהים God יהוה Father about her sins. At various places in hell, Michele recognized her sin choices & chose to repent/respond: "Oh God I am so sorry. Please forgive me." Before Michele's soul would soon be released from אלהים God's protective hand into eternal appropriate torment for what evil she had chosen to "love" the most (excerpt from Chapter 15 Guilty)

I had invited hate into my life and given the devil and his demons permission to come into me. I had become a slave to High Pitch and Low Pitch. Now these two demons were escorting me to the final place allotted to me for eternal doom. To make it worse, these demons would be the scorpion’s tail stinging me forever.

I could not say, “The devil made me do it all.” Or, “It was High Pitch and Low Pitch who made me do it.” They had played a major role in getting me down here, but I had chosen to help them all the way.

When I gave permission, I gave the devil and his seed, High Pitch and Low Pitch, a place to live and reign inside of me. I had literally made them my guardian demons, and I knew they would be my main tormenting torturers forever. I sensed how they were eager to start their hateful torment and torture on me. My soul was their eternal prize from the devil, their father, as a job well done.

High Pitch and Low Pitch then showed themselves, bellowing out their guffawing laughter right in front of me.

I let out a yell of horror and disgust.

They were hideous, grotesque monsters. High Pitch was a very tall, thin, crooked, and hunched creature with many wiry limbs all over. He had a hideous enlarged, ridged head with an over-bearing scowl and tight, unforgiving lip. Sadistic bitterness and anger oozed out from him. His mouth was tightly twisted, projecting the message of manipulation and control. His cruel, hateful eyes bored right into my being with the suspicion I had come to operate in.

I now understood why I had called this hideous thing High Pitch. His thin, hateful, high-pitched voice was always telling me to hate and torture myself. It was High Pitch who dominated, telling me I was a disgusting, fat pig and I had to lose weight. This demon also domineered in telling me to hate and not trust any man. He said the only way to be entirely safe from men would be to murder them, because then they could not hurt me. High Pitch was the main voice telling me to never forgive anyone. People could not be trusted, and that’s why they had to be controlled. He was bitter hate. All of this matched the very tall, thin, crooked, hunched, and tight-lipped wiry creature I saw in front of me.

Low Pitch bulged out from behind High Pitch. He was just as disgustingly hideous. An oversized blob-like midget creature, he seemed to release doom and gloom. He was hopelessness and rejection personified. The whole top of his head was a frown, which pulled his lower lip down so it was hanging into his neck. This matched the low-pitched voice always telling me how worthless I was, and how nobody loved me and how life was not worth living. His eyes were filled with hate that bored so strongly into my soul that I already found myself wanting to destroy my own soul, even with the divine protection around me.

Disgustingly, he had no limbs, only short stubs all over, making him appear like a sick, helpless victim. His helpless appearance did not fool me into pitying him. As I looked at the hate in its eyes, I could see this demon’s intent. It was this thing who had trained me and enabled me to play the victim to manipulate others and get control. It was Low Pitch who had bored hopelessness and no reason to live in my mind.

As I looked at these two hideous demons in front of me, I saw how I had become what they were. This sickened me, as I had no excuse for becoming them. Shocked, I cried out, I have been listening to you two sick, hideous creatures, doing your bidding all this time? No, no, no, no!

They screamed, Yes, yes, yes, and went into a frenzy of utter delight saying, Now you are ours! Now you are ours!

Once again, I cried out, No!

But these hideous creatures zoned in, Yes! You are ours! Lord Lucifer has given you to us. And, remember, you owe us your soul!

I could hear myself screaming and screaming as they went into another spitting frenzy of delight.

What have I done?

God immediately said, Rejected My love.

I released a greater anguished howl of regret because of what I had done to God and His love. I had turned what God had fearfully and wonderfully created into drudge and slime. Hate, anger, bitterness, self-abuse, anorexia, bulimia, blood euphoria, lies, deceit, schemes, playing the victim, victimizing, manipulation, judging, avenging, purposely hurting others, adultery, the list of everything I had done went on and on.

I was guilty. I could not pretend, deny, or blame shift anymore. I had enjoyed the power of getting my own way, getting even, destroying someone, playing games with people’s emotions, always being the controller, and even planned to murder.

I had enjoyed it all. I saw how evil it was. God was right, I knew what path I had chosen and refused to turn away from it.

I did not plan, or enjoy the pit I had dug for myself. I never once thought I would end up in hell. I had not really believed there was a hell. How wrong I was. If only! But, it was too late for that!

I was a hater of self and a hater of life, and knew I was traveling down into the place of self-destruction. Panic gripped me, because I knew in a very short time I would be stuck in this hell of self-destruction for eternity, with the two hideous demons as my main torturers. I was able to feel and see how they were dying to begin ripping me apart. They had no mercy for me whatsoever, only hate. I also knew that while they would all be torturing me, I would be abusing and destroying my self, my own soul, as well, because that was my controlling sin.

What have I done, my God, what have I done? I screamed. God, please don’t send me there, please forgive me,” I begged in agony.

I cannot, Michele. It is only the blood of My Son that can bring forgiveness.

Desperate, I said, God, I stood in front of that church with Bridget and said the sinner’s prayer.

Yes, you did.

Can’t that save me?

Michele, you acknowledged my Son many times, but most religious people do. You never accepted My precious Son Jesus as Lord and Savior, who died on the cross for you. My Son is the one and only sacrifice and High Priest. I accept nothing else. I am the God who sees into the hearts and thoughts of a man. You did not mean it when you said the sinner’s prayer.

God was right. He had seen right into my heart that night in Spring Valley Church. I had gone up to the front of the church and repeated the words saying, “Jesus is the Son of God, and He died on the cross for our sins and rose again and is now sitting on the right hand of God.” But it did not really mean anything to me. I had acknowledged that Jesus was the Son of God, yes, but I had never really accepted Jesus as Lord of all, the One who had shed His blood for me so I could be forgiven.

Suddenly, as if a light had been clicked on, I saw it! On breathing out His last breath on earth, Jesus had come down to this place of hell, to the devil’s kingdom, his domain and territory. Jesus had done this so He could finally overcome the devil once and for all, in his domain, and rightfully claim the keys of death from him. This was the final blow against the devil, Lucifer. Now the devil stood completely defeated by Jesus Christ.

I cried out, Oh, God Almighty, I am so sorry, I am so sorry. I now understand! What have I done? Jesus, what have I done to You?

The fear that was filling me about my eternal fate was replaced with soul-wrenching remorse and repentance. I had missed telling Jesus He is Lord on earth, but I was not going to enter my doom before telling Jesus He is Lord.

I then turned my whole being to Jesus. I knew He was not there physically, but I also knew He would be able to hear me. I shouted with all that was in me, Jesus, I am sorry! Forgive me! It is only through You! You are Lord of all! You are the Christ, the Savior! You are the only begotten Son of God. Oh, Lord Jesus, please forgive me before I go into my doom! Please forgive me before you take Your hand of protection off me! Please let me hear You forgive me before I enter the place of torture and hell I deserve.

As I said this, I bowed my spirit and soul before Him. I knew He would see my heart, and I hoped with my whole soul He would forgive me. Before I entered the place of my doom for eternity, I wanted Jesus to see I had bowed down and worshipped Him as Lord. I hoped the amoeba-ape, Lucifer, the devil, and all his soldiers were also watching.

I shouted out, Jesus is Lord!

The angry, snarling voice of the devil cursed me. It seemed to resonate throughout hell, and be followed by the cursing and blaspheming of all the hideous demons present.

I knew I had angered Lucifer and his demons, but I did not care. I had seen the truth and this had set me free! My soul had never felt such freedom when I was alive on earth. I felt as if I were soaring like a bird high up in the sky, and not seconds away from burning in hell forever.

I defiantly shouted out, “Jesus, You are Lord! You are Lord!” As I said this, I bowed down in total surrender before His Name.

High Pitch and Low Pitch, and all the demons present, went into a frenzy of anger and started to snort like animals. I knew their attack on me was going to be vicious. I did not care because I had done the most important thing—I had proclaimed to Jesus that He is Lord.

I purposely raised up and stood with my whole being outstretched, ignoring the blasphemous scowling from hell as it became a distant muffle. With determination and a spirit full of praise, I shouted with all my might, J-E-S-U-S!

The next thing I knew, a luminous, brilliant, white-bright porthole of light came over me, and I suddenly felt myself being lifted.

High Pitch and Low Pitch let out a cursing wail as they scurried off in frightened flight. As I continued going up, the evil, waving tentacles and hideous demons screamed and cursed as if in pain as they scuttled away from this brilliant light. Fiery hell was clearly fleeing from the Light. It was as if this luminous, brilliant, white-bright light was tormenting them. Hell seemed to be totally petrified of this Light and began to tremble, releasing an agonized tortured wail.

I gasped out in total amazement and cried in relief.

Pulford, Michele. Climbing Into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven (pp. 168-173). Kindle Edition. 

To me, Michele's dialog with God in Hell is truthfully consistent with my "faith belief" that One Holy יהוה אלהים God = יהוה Father & יהוה Jesus & יהוה Breath The Holy (three distinct voices in One plural אלהים God). Searching LEB for (God OR Jesus) NEAR (free OR heart OR thoughts OR tests) finds 140 verses so Michele's dialog with God & freedom from sin is truthfully consistent with what Scripture texts say. Also the demonic descriptions are truthfully consistent with our spiritual adversary who wants every human to go to hell, NOT Love One plural אלהים God the most.

Rereading יהוה Lord Jesus descending into hell after crucifixion (Holy substitute sin offering) reminds me יהוה Lord Jesus truly knows anguishing torment of every place in hell (substitute for primary controlling sin choices), which brought Ephesians to mind: (includes an awesome prayer 🙏)

To me, the least of all the saints, was given this grace: to proclaim the good news of the fathomless riches of Christ to the Gentiles, and to enlighten everyone as to what is the administration of the mystery hidden from the ages by אלהים God, who created all things, in order that the many-sided wisdom of אלהים God might be made known now to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places through the church, according to the purpose of the ages which he carried out in Christ Jesus our יהוה Lord, in whom we have boldness and access in confidence through faith in him. Therefore I ask you not to be discouraged at my afflictions on behalf of you, which are your glory. On account of this, I bend my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that he may grant you according to the riches of his glory to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inner person, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith (you having been firmly rooted and established in love), in order that you may be strong enough to grasp together with all the saints what is the breadth, and length, and height, and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, in order that you may be filled up to all the fullness of אלהים God. Now to the one who is able to do beyond all measure more than all that we ask or think, according to the power that is at work in us, to him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen. Therefore I, the prisoner in the יהוה Lord, exhort you to live in a manner worthy of the calling with which you were called: with all humility and gentleness, with patience, putting up with one another in love, being eager to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace; one body and one Spirit (just as also you were called with one hope of your calling), one יהוה Lord, one faith, one baptism, one אלהים God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all. Now to each one of us was given this grace, according to the measure of Christ’s gift. Therefore it says, “Ascending on high he led captivity captive; he gave gifts to men.” Now “he ascended,” what is it, except that he also descended to the lower regions of the earth? The one who descended himself is also the one who ascended above all the heavens, in order that he might fill all things. And he himself gave some as apostles and some as prophets and some as evangelists and some as pastors and teachers for the equipping of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all reach the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of אלהים God, to a mature man, to a measure of the maturity of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be infants, tossed about by waves and carried about by every wind of teaching, by the trickery of people, by craftiness with reference to the scheming of deceit. But speaking the truth in love, we are to grow into him with reference to all things, who is the head, Christ, from whom the whole body, joined together and held together by every supporting ligament, according to the working by measure of each single part, the growth of the body makes for the building up of itself in love. This therefore I say and testify in the יהוה Lord, that you no longer walk as the Gentiles walk: in the futility of their mind, being darkened in understanding, alienated from the life of אלהים God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart, who, becoming callous, gave themselves over to licentiousness, for the pursuit of all uncleanness in greediness. But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard about him, and you were taught by him (just as truth is in Jesus), that you take off, according to your former way of life, the old man, who is being destroyed according to deceitful desires, be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new man (in accordance with אלהים God), who is created in righteousness and holiness from the truth. Therefore, putting aside the lie, speak truth each one of you with his neighbor, because we are members of one another. Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun set on your anger, nor give place to the devil. The one who steals must steal no longer, but instead must labor, working with his own hands what is good, so that he may have something to share with the one who has need. No rotten word must proceed from your mouth, but only something good for the building up of the need, in order that it may give grace to those who hear, and do not grieve the Holy Spirit of אלהים God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. All bitterness, and rage, and wrath, and clamor, and abusive speech, must be removed from you, together with all wickedness. Become kind toward one another, compassionate, forgiving one another, just as also אלהים God in Christ has forgiven you. Therefore become imitators of אלהים God, as beloved children, and live in love, just as also Christ loved us, and gave himself for us an offering and sacrifice to אלהים God for a fragrant smell. But sexual immorality, and all uncleanness, or greediness, must not even be named among you (as is fitting for saints), and obscenity, and foolish talk, or coarse jesting (which are not proper), but rather thanksgiving. For this you know for certain, that every sexually immoral person, or unclean person, or greedy person (who is an idolater), does not have an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and אלהים God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of אלהים God is coming on the sons of disobedience. (Ephesians 3:8-5:6 LEB with connections for two Hebrew lemmas from primary Jewish translation into Greek LXX)

Michele's story includes holding onto anger with hate after an evil attack against Michele => demonic possession by High Pitch and Low Pitch

@Bill_Coley August 3 I will pray for you, too... though not about that "outside destination" thing; I know by faith that you don't have to worry about such an outcome.

Appreciate prayers 🙏 knowing am a human work in progress who wants to Be Holy as God is Holy => Righteously Loving ❤️ God the most so can Love ❤️ myself the way God Loves ❤️ me, which enables me to Love ❤️ one another as God Loves ❤️

Looking forward to seeing Bright Holy Light of my יהוה Lord Jesus so can fall on my knees to Worship.

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

Our exchanges show your study results still remain more important to you than my study results (where my studies include Holy God inspired truth in original languages and cultural context, primarily ancient Jewish).

oh dear ... how misguided is your thinking about "original language" vs "translated language".

Misapplication and misinterpretation of a Greek or Hebrew term is still misapplied and misinterpreted (as your "lord"="Lord YHWH" ideas).

It is not the language that determines a correct understanding of words, but the context ... no matter which language one uses.

My testing of your study result "faith belief" ideas has simply not found any original language basis for your "clearly distinct" interpretations of English translated text. Also recognize you have the intellectual ability to learn about original languages, especially what does not translate well into English.

Sneaky, snarly derogatory remark ... as the context of your statement reveals your hypocritical intent.

And yes, I am using straight forward plain words, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, no need for you "to sweet talk".

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@C Mc August 3 "Debates are useless and a more constructive form of discussion should take its place to deduce the most appropriate outcome of an issue." CM

Puzzled by comment in "A SCRIPTURE based discussion" thread (seems appropriate for its own CD thread). Each person has free will to choose what to truly Love ❤️the most. Human "faith belief" is designed by One Holy יהוה אלהים God to be incredibly stubborn so words and actions flowing out show personal "faith belief" that is quite challenging for respectful discussion of Scripture ideas without criticizing people (as "faith belief" strongly reacts to Holy Scripture truth that challenges personal ideas). Simple showing Holy Scripture Truth does not change human "faith belief" as One Holy יהוה אלהים God designed each human to be accountable for individual word & action choices (Ezekiel 18). To me, changing form of human interaction does NOT change obnoxious deceitfulness of human hearts to resist becoming Holy as יהוה God is Holy => includes my own human nature, which wars (Romans 7) with my intense desire to Be Holy as יהוה God is Holy that includes Righteous Love ❤️. Thankful for my slow positive progress toward יהוה God's Holiness while still being a work in progress: learning daily journaling helps reflection & prayers 🙏

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 2 Thus far my scripture text study has not encountered a single verse that says Jesus is NOT God (simply NOT what any text says). Searching LEB for phrase "Jesus is not God" finds nothing.

@Wolfgang August 3 HA HA HA HA ... I suggest you do some serious and honest reading of Scripture text.

After praying for One Holy יהוה אלהים God to open my eyes to behold wonders from One Holy יהוה אלהים God's truthful teachings (Psalm 119:18), am enjoying reading & learning more about One Holy יהוה אלהים God (beyond human words to describe). Thankful for A SCRIPTURE based discussion that has given me reason to research Scripture.

@Wolfgang August 3 There is not a single verse that say Jesus IS God either.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 2 Searching LEB for Jesus NEAR not NEAR (God,Lord) finds 12 verses (search results Bold in passages):

Noticed no comments about 12 Scripture passages from my August 2 search, which is puzzling in A SCRIPTURE based discussion. How would the man in Luke 8:26-39 obeying the command of Jesus describe אלהים God ?

And they sailed to the region of the Gerasenes, which is opposite Galilee. And as he got out on the land, a certain man from the town met him who had demons and for a considerable time had not worn clothes and did not live in a house, but among the tombs. And when he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before him, and said with a loud voice, “What do I have to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me!” For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. (For it had seized him many times, and he was bound with chains and shackles and was guarded, and breaking the bonds he would be driven by the demon into the deserted places.) So Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion,” because many demons had entered into him. And they began imploring him that he would not order them to depart into the abyss. Now there was a large herd of pigs feeding there on the hill, and they implored him that he would permit them to enter into those pigs. And he permitted them. So the demons came out of the man and entered into the pigs, and the herd rushed headlong down the steep slope into the lake and were drowned. And when the herdsmen saw what had happened, they fled and reported it in the town and in the countryside. So they went out to see what had happened, and they came to Jesus and found the man from whom the demons had gone out sitting there clothed and in his right mind, at the feet of Jesus, and they were afraid. And those who had seen it reported to them how the man who had been demon-possessed had been healed. And all the people of the surrounding region of the Gerasenes asked him to depart from them, because they had been seized with great fear. So he got into the boat and returned. And the man from whom the demons had gone out was begging him to stay with him, but he sent him away, saying, “Return to your home and tell all that God has done for you.” And he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole town all that Jesus had done for him. (Luke 8:26-39 LEB) that has Jesus commanding the man to tell all that אלהים God has done => Jesus is in One Holy יהוה אלהים God

@Wolfgang August 3 Eh, did you find some verse that says Moses is God in your clever Logos searches?

Yes, searching LEB for Moses NEAR God finds 46 verses, which includes Exodus 7:1

And יהוה Yahweh said to Moses, “See, I have made you as a אלהים god to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother will be your prophet. You will speak all that I will command you, and Aaron your brother will speak to Pharaoh, and he will release the Israelites from his land. And I myself will harden the heart of Pharaoh, and I will make my signs and my wonders numerous in the land of Egypt. And Pharaoh will not listen to you, and I will put my hand into Egypt and bring out my divisions, my people, the Israelites, from the land of Egypt with great punishments. And the Egyptians will know that I am יהוה Yahweh when I stretch out my hand over Egypt and bring the Israelites out from their midst.” And Moses and Aaron did it; as יהוה Yahweh commanded them, so they did. (And Moses was eighty years old, and Aaron was eighty-three years old when they spoke to Pharaoh.) (Exodus 7:1-7 LEB)

Exodus 7:1 is an example where אלהים does NOT refer to The God of Abraham, The God of Isaac, The God of Jacob (first search result is Exodus 3:6) => And he said, “I am the אלהים God of your father, the אלהים God of Abraham, the אלהים God of Isaac, and the אלהים God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face because he was afraid of looking at אלהים God.

Exodus 7:5 LXX has Jewish translation "ἐγώ εἰμι Κύριος" (I am יהוה Yahweh) for Hebrew "אֲנִ֣י יְהוָ֔ה" (I YHWH).

@Wolfgang August 3 Most likely you did ... so which voice of your "multi-voices-choir-God" is he?

Moses was a servant of One Holy יהוה אלהים God => Therefore, holy brothers, sharers in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, who was faithful to the one who appointed him, as Moses also was in his household. For this one is considered worthy of greater glory than Moses, inasmuch as the one who builds it has greater honor than the house. For every house is built by someone, but the one who built all things is אלהים God. And Moses was faithful in all his house as a servant, for a testimony to the things that would be spoken, but Christ was faithful as a son over his house, whose house we are, if we hold fast to our confidence and the hope we can be proud of. Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of testing in the wilderness, where your fathers tested me by trial and saw my works for forty years. Therefore I was angry with this generation, and I said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, and they do not know my ways.’ As I swore in my anger, ‘They will never enter into my rest.’ ” Watch out, brothers, lest there be in some of you an evil, unbelieving heart, with the result that you fall away from the living אלהים God. But encourage one another day by day, as long as it is called “today,” so that none of you become hardened by the deception of sin. For we have become partners of Christ, if indeed we hold fast the beginning of our commitment steadfast until the end, while it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For who, when they heard it, were disobedient? Surely it was not all who went out from Egypt through Moses? And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose dead bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear they would not enter into his rest, except those who were disobedient? And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. (Hebrews 3:1-19 LEB)

@Wolfgang August 3 Did your search bring up a result for "a human being IS God"?

Searching LEB for (human OR man OR "you are") NEAR God finds 314 verses, including Psalm 82:6 that was quoted by Jesus in John 10:34 when hypocritical Jewish religious leaders wanted to kill Jesus for Blasphemy => The Jews answered him, “We are not going to stone you concerning a good deed, but concerning blasphemy, and because you, although you are a man, make yourself to be אלהים God!” (John 10:33 LEB)

@Wolfgang August 3 what about "a human being is not God"?

‘Can a human being be more righteous than אלהים God, or can a man be more pure than his Maker? (Job 4:17)

“Indeed, how can a human being be righteous before אלהים God? And how will he who is born of a woman be pure? (Job 25:4)

Searching LEB for (no OR not) WITHIN 2 WORDS God finds 172 verses, includes:

And the Egyptians are human and not God, and their horses are flesh and not spirit. And יהוה Yahweh stretches out his hand, and the helper will stumble, and the one being helped will fall, and together all of them will come to an end. (Isaiah 31:3 LEB) has el, the first syllable of e-lo-HEEM

And Hezekiah took the letter from the hand of the messengers, and he read it. Then he went up to the temple of יהוה Yahweh, and Hezekiah spread it out before the presence of יהוה Yahweh. And Hezekiah prayed to יהוה Yahweh, saying, “יהוה Yahweh of hosts, אלהים God of Israel who is enthroned on the cherubim, you are the one, אלהים God by yourself, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you are the one who made the heavens and the earth. יהוה Yahweh, extend your ear and hear! יהוה Yahweh, open your eyes and see, and hear all the words of Sennacherib that he has sent to taunt the living אלהים God! Truly, יהוה Yahweh, the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the lands and their land, to set their gods in the fire, for they were not אלהים gods, but the work of human hands, wood and stone, and they destroyed them. So now, יהוה Yahweh, our אלהים God, save us from his hand so that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that you are יהוה Yahweh, you alone!” (Isaiah 37:14-20 LEB) that shows "יהוה Yahweh of hosts" is a distinct portion of אלהים God of Israel & יהוה Yahweh. To me, "יהוה Yahweh" refers to all of One Holy יהוה אלהים God while "יהוה Yahweh of hosts" is another title for The Word, who took on human flesh to dwell among human beings (John 1:1-18)

Thus says יהוה Yahweh, the king of Israel, and its redeemer, יהוה Yahweh of hosts: “I am the first, and I am the last, and there is no אלהים god besides me. (Isaiah 44:6 LEB with two Hebrew lemmas) has plural subject for "I am ..." (unique unity) & אלהים e-lo-HEEM (plural) god

@Wolfgang August 3 Did the apostles in total ignorance or stupidity teach that Jesus was a man, a human being?

Thankful for Jewish apostles teaching the human body of Jesus had a spiritual portion of אלהים God (The Word) inside (as stated in John 1:1-18)

And as he got into the boat, his disciples followed him. And behold, a great storm arose on the sea, so that the boat was being inundated by the waves, but he himself was asleep. And they came and woke him, saying, “יהוה Lord, save us! We are perishing!” And he said to them, “Why are you fearful, you of little faith?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the sea and there was a great calm. And the men were astonished, saying, “What sort of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him?” (Matthew 8:23-27 LEB)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 3 Our exchanges show your study results still remain more important to you than my study results (where my studies include Holy God inspired truth in original languages and cultural context, primarily ancient Jewish).

@Wolfgang August 3 oh dear ... how misguided is your thinking about "original language" vs "translated language".

@Wolfgang August 3 Misapplication and misinterpretation of a Greek or Hebrew term is still misapplied and misinterpreted (as your "lord"="Lord YHWH" ideas).

@Wolfgang August 3 It is not the language that determines a correct understanding of words, but the context ... no matter which language one uses.

Thankful for "How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth, 4th ed." by Fee & Stuart including

THE FIRST TASK: EXEGESIS

The first task of the interpreter is called exegesis. This involves the careful, systematic study of the Scripture to discover the original, intended meaning. This is primarily a historical task. It is the attempt to hear the Word as the original recipients were to have heard it, to find out what was the original intent of the words of the Bible. This is the task that often calls for the help of the “expert,” a person trained to know well the language and circumstances of a text in its original setting. But one does not have to be an expert to do good exegesis.

In fact, everyone is an exegete of sorts. The only real question is whether you will be a good one. How many times, for example, have you heard or said, “What Jesus meant by that was …” or, “Back in those days, they used to …”? These are exegetical expressions. Most often they are employed to explain the differences between “them” and “us”—why we do not build parapets around our houses, for example—or to give a reason for our using a text in a new or different way—why handshaking has often taken the place of the “holy kiss.” Even when such ideas are not articulated, they are in fact practiced all the time in a kind of commonsense way.

The problem with much of this, however, is (1) that such exegesis is often too selective and (2) that often the sources consulted are not written by true “experts,” that is, they are secondary sources that also often use other secondary sources rather than the primary sources. A few words about each of these must be given.

1. Although everyone employs exegesis at times, and although quite often such exegesis is well done, it nonetheless tends to be employed only when there is an obvious problem between the biblical texts and modern culture. Whereas it must indeed be employed for such texts, we insist that it is the first step in reading EVERY text. At first, this will not be easy to do, but learning to think exegetically will pay rich dividends in understanding and will make even the reading, not to mention the studying, of the Bible a much more exciting experience. But note well: Learning to think exegetically is not the only task; it is simply the first task.

The real problem with “selective” exegesis is that one will often read one’s own, completely foreign, ideas into a text and thereby make God’s word something other than what God really said. For example, one of the authors of this book once received a letter from a well-known evangelical, who argued that the author should not appear in a conference with another well-known person, whose orthodoxy on a point was thought to be suspect. The biblical reason given for avoiding the conference was the command to: “Abstain from all appearance of evil” (1 Thess 5:22 KJV). But had our brother learned to read the Bible exegetically, he would not have used the text in that way. For this is Paul’s final word in a paragraph to the Thessalonians regarding Spirit manifestations in the community. What Paul really says, in current English, is: “Do not treat prophecies with contempt, but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil” (NIV). The “avoidance of evil” had to do with “prophecies,” which, when tested, were found not to be of the Spirit. To make this text mean something God did not intend is to abuse the text, not use it. To avoid making such mistakes one needs to learn to think exegetically, that is, to begin back then and there, and to do so with every text.

2. As we will soon note, one does not begin by consulting the “experts.” But when it is necessary to do so, one should try to use the better sources. For example, at the conclusion of the story of the rich young man in Mark 10:24 (Matt 19:23; Luke 18:24), Jesus says, “How hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!” He then adds: “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.” You will sometimes hear it said that there was a gate in Jerusalem known as the “Needle’s Eye,” which camels could go through only by kneeling, and with great difficulty. The point of this “interpretation” is that a camel could in fact go through the “Needle’s Eye.” The trouble with this “exegesis,” however, is that it is simply not true. There never was such a gate in Jerusalem at any time in its history. The earliest known “evidence” for this idea is found in the eleventh century(!) in a commentary by a Greek churchman named Theophylact, who had the same difficulty with the text that many later readers do. After all, it is impossible for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, and that was precisely Jesus’ point. It is impossible for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom. It takes a miracle for a rich person to get saved, which is quite the point of what follows: “All things are possible with God.”

 Gordon D. Fee and Douglas Stuart, How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth, Fourth Edition. (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2014), 27–29.

From my view, we always read/interpret what the text says using our faith belief ideas. Thankful "How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth, 4th ed." also encourages researching/knowing Historical Context along with Literary Context (genre).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 3 My testing of your study result "faith belief" ideas has simply not found any original language basis for your "clearly distinct" interpretations of English translated text. Also recognize you have the intellectual ability to learn about original languages, especially what does not translate well into English.

@Wolfgang August 3 Sneaky, snarly derogatory remark ... as the context of your statement reveals your hypocritical intent.

@Wolfgang August 3 And yes, I am using straight forward plain words, @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus, no need for you "to sweet talk".

Puzzled by what you "see" in me (while misrepresenting my Loving ❤️ intent)

Truly my testing of your "faith belief" idea that nothing is plural in one God simply disagrees with three plural voices in Holy inspired Scripture.

Baptism of Jesus shows three (minimum # for plural in Hebrew):

Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John in order to be baptized by him. But John tried to prevent him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it now, for in this way it is right for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he permitted him. Now after he was baptized, Jesus immediately went up from the water, and behold, the heavens opened and he saw the Spirit of אלהים God descending like a dove coming upon him. And behold, there was a voice from heaven saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:13-17 LEB with Hebrew lemma connection in ancient Jewish cultural context)

Hypocritical Jewish religious leaders understood Jesus: The Father and I are One אלהים => So the Jews surrounded him and began to say to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly!” Jesus answered them, “I told you and you do not believe! The deeds that I do in the name of my Father, these testify about me. But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep! My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.” Then the Jews picked up stones again so that they could stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good deeds from the Father. For which one of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “We are not going to stone you concerning a good deed, but concerning blasphemy, and because you, although you are a man, make yourself to be אלהים God!” (John 10:25-33 LEB)

Searching LEB for <Person Holy Spirit> finds 280 verses, including:

Now while the Pharisees were assembled, Jesus asked them, saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him, “David’s.” He said to them, “How then does David, by the Spirit, call him ‘Lord,’ saying, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet” ’? If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how is he his son?” And no one was able to answer him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on to ask him any more questions. (Matthew 22:41-46 LEB)

“Truly I say to you that all the sins and the blasphemies will be forgiven the sons of men, however much they blaspheme. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit does not have forgiveness forever, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—because they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.” (Mark 3:28-30 LEB)

And his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied, saying, “Blessed be the יהוה Lord, the אלהים God of Israel, because he has visited to help and has redeemed his people, and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David, just as he spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets from earliest times— salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all those who hate us, to show mercy to our fathers and to remember his holy covenant, the oath that he swore to Abraham our father, to grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies, could serve him without fear in holiness and righteousness before him all our days. And so you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High, for you will go on before the יהוה Lord to prepare his ways, to give knowledge of salvation to his people by the forgiveness of their sins, because of the merciful compassion of our אלהים God by which the dawn will visit to help us from on high, to give light to those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to direct our feet into the way of peace.” And the child kept growing and becoming strong in spirit, and was in the wilderness until the day of his public appearance to Israel. (Luke 1:67-80 LEB)

And when the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in the same place. And suddenly a sound like a violent rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. And divided tongues like fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other languages as the Spirit gave them ability to speak out. Now there were Jews residing in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the crowd gathered and was in confusion, because each one was hearing them speaking in his own language. And they were astounded and astonished, saying, “Behold, are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how do we hear, each one of us, in our own native language? Parthians and Medes and Elamites and those residing in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya toward Cyrene, and the Romans who were in town, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own languages the great deeds of God!” And all were amazed and greatly perplexed, saying to one another, “What can this mean?” But others jeered and said, “They are full of sweet new wine!” (Acts 2:1-13 LEB)

And the Spirit said to Philip, “Approach and join this chariot.” (Acts 8:29 LEB)

And while Peter was reflecting about the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, men are looking for you. But get up, go down, and go with them—not hesitating at all, because I have sent them.” (Acts 10:19-20 LEB)

And while they were serving the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart now for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” (Acts 13:2 LEB)

Thankful for One Holy יהוה אלהים God having three distinct voices 😍that at times speak individually while other times speak as One אלהים

And the seventh poured out his bowl on the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” (Revelation 16:17 LEB)

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

Nothing of what you think was Scriptural evidence for your faith-belief (multi-voices-God) or your claim that Jesus is the Lord God.

There is no scripture that says Jesus IS God. There is no scripture that says a human being can be God. There are a number of scriptures that do say Jesus was a human being, a man.

But you cannot recognize the most basic truth in these facts of Scripture.

All your Greek, Hebrew, logos searches or other theological literature cannot help you see the simple plain truth which anyone could see if they were not blinded.

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Wolfgang August 4 Nothing of what you think was Scriptural evidence for your faith-belief (multi-voices-God) or your claim that Jesus is the Lord God.

"Nothing ..." is consistent with your "faith belief" that Jesus is NOT God so your interpreted word meanings express Jesus is NOT God to you (but NOT to me). Notable lacking in A SCRIPTURE based discussion is any scripture for your "faith belief" that One God is limited to one voice.

How could Jesus be having God's Glory (John 17:5) and God's Love (John 17:24) before One God created the world ? (only One God being existed before the foundation of the world).

@Wolfgang August 3 There is not a single verse that say Jesus IS God either.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 2 Searching LEB for Jesus NEAR not NEAR (God,Lord) finds 12 verses (search results Bold in passages):

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 4 Noticed no comments about 12 Scripture passages from my August 2 search, which is puzzling in A SCRIPTURE based discussion. How would the man in Luke 8:26-39 obeying the command of Jesus describe אלהים God ?

Repeating Scripture question: How would the man in Luke 8:26-39 obeying the command of Jesus describe אלהים God ?

@Wolfgang August 4 There is no scripture that says Jesus IS God. 

Searching all the Bibles in my Logos library for phrase "Jesus is not God" finds nothing. In contrast, searching all Bibles for phrase "Jesus is God" found phrases "Jesus is God's Son" OR "Jesus is God's own Son" in nine Bibles, primarily 1 John 4:15

If any of us confess that Jesus is God’s Son, God remains in us and we remain in God. (1 John 4:15 Common English Bible)

Everyone who confesses that Jesus is God’s Son participates continuously in an intimate relationship with God. (1 John 4:15 The Message)

If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is God’s Son, God dwells in him and he in God. (1 John 4:15 Revised English Bible)

Jesus is God’s own Son, but still he had to suffer before he could learn what it really means to obey God. (Hebrews 5:8 Contemporary English Version)

Searching all Bibles for phrase "Jesus is the Son of God" finds verses in 89 Bibles, primarily 1 John 4:15 & 1 John 5:5

Searching all Bibles for Jesus NEAR "Son of God" finds 1,636 results in 816 verses in 119 Bibles

@Wolfgang August 4 There is no scripture that says a human being can be God.

Who is the biological father for Jesus ?

Scripture text simply disagrees with your assertion "There is no scripture that says a human being can be God."

Now all this happened in order that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet would be fulfilled, saying, “Behold, the virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Emmanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.” (Matthew 1:22-23 LEB)

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Look! the virgin is with child and she is about to give birth to a son, and she shall call his name ‘God with us.’ (Isaiah 7:14 LEB)

For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6 LEB)

Now in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin legally promised in marriage to a man named Joseph of the house of David. And the name of the virgin was Mary. And he came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.” But she was greatly perplexed at the statement, and was pondering what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in the womb and will give birth to a son, and you will call his name Jesus. This one will be great, and he will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David. And he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end. And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I have not had sexual relations with a man?” And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the one to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. And behold, your relative Elizabeth—she also has conceived a son in her old age, and this is the sixth month for her who was called barren. For nothing will be impossible with God.” So Mary said, “Behold, the Lord’s female slave! May it happen to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her. (Luke 1:26-38 LEB) has angelic message from God about One Son, whose father is NOT a descendant of Adam.

@Wolfgang August 4 There are a number of scriptures that do say Jesus was a human being, a man.

Jesus (The Word) took on human flesh (man body) while quality of The Word was fully being God (John 1:1-18).

@Wolfgang August 4 But you cannot recognize the most basic truth in these facts of Scripture.

🙏Praying for Holy God to open our eyes so we can truly see Holy God's inspired truth in Scripture texts (Psalm 119:18)

@Wolfgang August 4 All your Greek, Hebrew, logos searches or other theological literature cannot help you see the simple plain truth which anyone could see if they were not blinded.

We disagree. Notably lacking is specific Scripture counterpoints in your replies.

Personally am immensely Thankful for יהוה Breath The Holy being specific when convicting me of my sins against One Holy יהוה אלהים God (generic dismissive comments provide nothing for me to research/test so can hold onto what is Good for slowly transforming my "faith belief" ideas to Be Holy as God is Holy).

FWIW: one basic truth from Scripture is "I" trouble in Isaiah 14:13-14 by our spiritual adversary so have learned to test every "I" thought in me (since "I" thoughts are a way for our spiritual adversary to attack us). To me, the only thing more powerful than the incredibly intense hatred of our spiritual enemy is the magnificient wonderful Love ❤️ of One Holy יהוה אלהים God (simply beyond human words to beautifully describe). Thankful for One Holy יהוה אלהים God's Love ❤️ planning & providing a Holy substitute sin sacrifice in יהוה Jesus for Holy redemption. God's Love ❤️ allows each human to freely choose what to Love the most: e.g. study results, another human, deceiving spirit, pride, wealth, fame, power, One plural unique God, ... Caveat: only one primary Love choice results in Holy redemption (Deuteronomy 6:4-5)



Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

Notable lacking in A SCRIPTURE based discussion is any scripture for your "faith belief" that One God is limited to one voice.

Well, just count how many prophets have spoken, and you will have great Scripture support that God had a lot more voices than your three based on your faith belief without Scripture support

How could Jesus be having God's Glory (John 17:5) and God's Love (John 17:24) before One God created the world ? (only One God being existed before the foundation of the world).

Well, the simple and plain Scripture based truth concerning this topic has been given several times ... but you are unable to see or hear it.

Your tremendously expanded university professor like hypothesis about your "plural-voices-choir" type "plural God" is vast and rather impressive with its many words in various languages, etc. ... it is a house built on theological sand rather than Biblical rock.

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 5 Notable lacking in A SCRIPTURE based discussion is any scripture for your "faith belief" that One God is limited to one voice.

@Wolfgang August 5 Well, just count how many prophets have spoken, and you will have great Scripture support that God had a lot more voices than your three based on your faith belief without Scripture support

Repeating: Notable lacking in A SCRIPTURE based discussion is any scripture for your "faith belief" that One God is limited to one voice.

To me, a human being whose biological father is a descendent of Adam, does NOT transform into being Holy God when serving Holy God by speaking and/or writing words from Holy God. Human analogy is Power of Attorney where one human being can be authorized to speak & make legally binding decisions for a different human being.

Talking with One Holy God transformed skin of Moses => And he was there with יהוה Yahweh forty days and forty nights. He ate no food and drank no water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten words. And when Moses came down from Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony were in the hand of Moses at his coming down from the mountain; and Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone because of his speaking with him. And Aaron and all the Israelites saw Moses, and, to their amazement, the skin of his face shone, and they were afraid of coming near to him. And Moses called to them, and Aaron and all the leaders of the community returned to him, and Moses spoke to them. And afterward all the Israelites came near, and he commanded them all that יהוה Yahweh had spoken with him on Mount Sinai. And Moses finished speaking with them, and he put a veil on his face. And when Moses came before יהוה Yahweh to speak with him, he would remove the veil until he went out, and he would go out and would speak to the Israelites what he had been commanded. And the Israelites would see the face of Moses, that the skin of the face of Moses shone, and Moses would put back the veil on his face until his coming to speak with him. (Exodus 34:28-35 LEB)

Later the man Moses chose to sin against One Holy God, showing that Moses had NOT been transformed into being Holy God => There was no water for the community, and they were gathered before Moses and Aaron. And the people quarreled with Moses and spoke, saying, “If only we died when our brothers were dying before Yahweh! Why have you brought the assembly of יהוה Yahweh, us and our livestock, into this desert to die here? Why have you brought us from Egypt to bring us to this bad place? It is not a place of seed or figs or vines or pomegranate trees, and there is not water to drink.” And Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly to the doorway of the tent of assembly. They fell on their faces, and the glory of יהוה Yahweh appeared to them. יהוה Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, “Take the staff and summon the community, you and Aaron your brother, and speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will give water. Bring out for them water from the rock, and let the community and their livestock drink.” So Moses took the staff from before יהוה Yahweh just as he command him, and Moses and Aaron summoned the assembly to the presence of the rock, and he said to them, “Please listen, you rebels; can we bring out water for you from this rock?” Then Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock with his staff twice. And abundant water went out, and the community and their livestock drank. But יהוה Yahweh said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you have not trusted in me, to regard me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this assembly into the land that I have given to them.” Those were the waters of Meribah, where the Israelites quarreled with יהוה Yahweh, and he showed himself holy among them. (Numbers 20:2-13 LEB)

FWIW: Moses was Holy God's chosen leader for exodus (exit) from slavery in Egypt

Moses moh’zis (מֹשֶׁה H5407, derivation uncertain, but by popular etymology, “drawn out [of the water]”; Μωϋσῆς G3707). According to Exod. 2:10, Moses received his name from Pharaoh’s daughter, who said, “I drew him out of the water” (some have argued that the subject of the verbs “she called [his name]” and “she said” is in fact Moses’ mother). The Hebrew verb for “draw out” here is māšâ H5406 (its only other occurrence is in 2 Sam. 22:17=Ps. 18:16, where the hiphil conjugation is used).

It is often thought, however, that the name is Egyptian, derived from the root mśy, “to bear,” a common component in theophoric names (e.g., Thutmose or Thutmosis, “[the god] Thoth is born”; alternatively, Moses could be identified with the noun mesu [mśw], meaning “child”). Many have speculated that the child was given a compound Egyptian name, such as Ramose(s), and that he dropped the divine component when he later identified with the Hebrews. If so, the meaning given in Exod. 2:10 is a wordplay suggested by the similarity in sound between the Hebrew and Egyptian words (on the linguistic problems, see J. G. Griffiths in JNES 12 [1953]: 225–31, summarized by J. K. Hoffmeier in ISBE, rev. ed., 3:417).

Alternatively, if Moses was originally a Hebrew name, perhaps it was Pharaoh’s daughter who assimilated it to the Egyptian form (cf. K. A. Kitchen in NBD, 783–84; Y. Muchiki, Egyptian Proper Names and Loanwords in North-West Semitic [1999], 217). In any case, while the name occurs more than 750 times in the OT, no further explanation is given; and like the names of some other prominent OT characters, it is given to only one person, the great leader and lawgiver of Israel.

 Moisés Silva and Merrill Chapin Tenney, The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible, M-P (Grand Rapids, MI: The Zondervan Corporation, 2009), 315–316.

Joshua foreshadows Jesus "יהוה Yahweh is salvation" leading chosen people into Holy God's promised land

Joshua josh’yoo-uh (יְהוֹשֻׁעַ H3397, short form in postexilic writings יֵשׁוּעַ H3800 [see Jeshua], “Yahweh is salvation [or help]”; Ἰησοῦς G2652 [see Jesus]). (1) Son of Nun and commander of the Israelites during the conquest of Canaan. Although his name appears first as Joshua (Exod. 17:9–14), one reads subsequently (Num. 13:16; cf. v. 8 and Deut. 32:44 MT) that Moses changed his name from Hoshea (KJV, “Oshea”), meaning “Save,” to Joshua (more accurately transliterated as Jehoshua), “Yahweh is salvation,” making the name theophorous. This change may throw light upon the fact that names compounded with Yahweh were relatively rare in the period of the exodus. Moses (whose mother name was Jochebed, “Yahweh is glorious,” Exod. 6:20; Num. 26:59) may have wished to popularize such a custom by changing the name of his “minister” to Jehoshua. In the exilic period, the shorter form of the name (Jeshua) came into use (the son of Nun is called Jeshua in Neh. 8:17; the name of the postexilic priest is spelled “Jeshua” in Ezra and Nehemiah, but “Jehoshua” [Joshua] in Haggai and Zechariah).

 Moisés Silva and Merrill Chapin Tenney, The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible, H-L (Grand Rapids, MI: The Zondervan Corporation, 2009), 793.

Curious about your view for what μονογενῆ describes in => Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. (John 3:16 SBLGNT)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 5 How could Jesus be having God's Glory (John 17:5) and God's Love (John 17:24) before One God created the world ? (only One God being existed before the foundation of the world).

@Wolfgang August 5 Well, the simple and plain Scripture based truth concerning this topic has been given several times ... but you are unable to see or hear it.

Your words are your own, which are obviously correct about you NOT believing what John 17:5 and John 17:24 texts simply say (so your words read to me as falsehood, reminding me of outside destination in Revelation 22:15 so Holy God's Love ❤️ compels me to keep replying with 🙏 prayers for Holy God truth encounters, knowing Holy God will Rightfully judge & assign every created being to appropriate destination based on what the created being chose to Love ❤️ the most).

Page 4 of this thread has many comments: notably no follow-up from you to my July 16 comments about John 17:5

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 13 How would you describe what Jesus was having in John 17:5 ?

@Wolfgang July 13 Since Jesus was praying that God would give (future at the time) him glory, he obviously could not have actually experienced it prior, but had it in some other way ... how? in God's foreknowledge plan for the Messiah ... which was being realized at the time in the man Jesus.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 14 If believe Jesus did not exist prior to God creating world, then obviously Jesus could not have experienced God's Glory before the world existed.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 14  John 17:5 Greek text does not describe any foreknowledge plan, with future realization (none of the verbs are future tense).

@Wolfgang July 14 just read what the text says ....

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 16 Thankful for my faith belief frame of reference ideas that allows me to read what the text says so obviously The Glory Jesus was having beside The Father before the world existed => shows Jesus intensely remembered continual "was having" The Glory experience beside The Father before One Holy God created the physical word out of nothing.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 14 Jesus was praying for God to Glorify Jesus with the Glory Jesus was having beside The Father before the world existed.

@Wolfgang July 14 When Jesus was praying, he obviously did not have nor had been experiencing that glory, but prayed that God would now glorify him. There is no mention in Scripture that Jesus had been glorified or lived in glory before, rather all prophecies mentioning Messsiah's glory place the experience of glory AFTER the experience of sufferings !! Cp. 1 Petr 1,11 - "11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 16 Observation is your obvious faith belief idea appears as 'he obviously did not have nor had been experiencing that glory'

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 16 Could Jesus be truly from above (John 8:21-24) without experiencing The Glory of The Father above in Holy Heaven ?

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 16 Pondering one Greek sentence numbered Colossians 1:9-20 has me wondering about The Glory of The Father that Jesus experienced when creating all things in Holy Heaven and on the earth (as Jesus spoke to do Holy Father's righteous will).

Repeating question: Could Jesus be truly from above (John 8:21-24) without experiencing The Glory of The Father above in Holy Heaven ?

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 12 Jesus spiritually experienced continuously having God's Glory by the side of The Father before Holy God spoke to create physical world.

@Wolfgang July 14 "Spiritually experienced ..." what do you mean? how "spiritually" (as opposed to what other way or manner)? and how do you - being a man with human faculties - even actually know what you claim there?

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 16 Physical realm did not exist. Hence "spiritually" is my logical description. Humanly not know The Father and Jesus before Holy God spoke to create physical world (included plans for my human conception & subsequent birth nearly 6,000 years after Holy God created physical world).

@Wolfgang July 14 It seems to me you are assuming fantasy and claim "spiritually" in order to not have to actually support your idea with facts ... have experienced folks doing such many times. Textual facts and employing reason and logic don't count, but are dismissed as "human logic not sufficient", but their "spirit fantasy is sufficient" ???

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 16 Thankul for textual facts with reason & logic (within my faith belief ideas from many Biblical studies with prayers) so John 17:5 => Jesus spiritually experienced continuously having God's Glory by the side of The Father before Holy God spoke to create physical world.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 16 Caveat is me appreciating John 17:5 words simply are unable to express the incredible Holy Loving ❤️ magnitude of The Glory beside The Father that Jesus was continually having before Holy God spoke to create physical world.

Page 4 of this thread also included a request:

@Wolfgang July 18 It seems clear, that your faith belief ideas about God and His Messiah are contrary to Scripture.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 18 Please provide Scripture with explanation showing what is contrary. For ancient Jewish culture, please provide two OR three credible witnesses.

Noticed your Scripture evasion continues:

@Wolfgang August 3 There is not a single verse that say Jesus IS God either.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 2 Searching LEB for Jesus NEAR not NEAR (God,Lord) finds 12 verses (search results Bold in passages):

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 4 Noticed no comments about 12 Scripture passages from my August 2 search, which is puzzling in A SCRIPTURE based discussion. How would the man in Luke 8:26-39 obeying the command of Jesus describe אלהים God ?

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 5 Repeating Scripture question: How would the man in Luke 8:26-39 obeying the command of Jesus describe אלהים God ?

3rd time: How would the man in Luke 8:26-39 obeying the command of Jesus describe אלהים God ?

@Wolfgang August 4 There is no scripture that says a human being can be God.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 5 Who is the biological father for Jesus ?

Repeating: Who is the biological father for Jesus ? (per Matthew 1:22-23, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6, & Luke 1:26-38)

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

@Wolfgang August 4 There is no scripture that says a human being can be God.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 5 Who is the biological father for Jesus ?

Repeating: Who is the biological father for Jesus ? (per Matthew 1:22-23, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6, & Luke 1:26-38)

According to those scriptures, God - by means of a miracle conception in Mary - is the biological father of Jesus.

God was also the biological father of Adam ... obviously not by means of a conception but by means of creating a whole "adult" human being.

Simple and plain truth .... just don't turn Mary into having conceived God by God ... as you would then make yourself a Greek mythologist. Women can only conceive human beings ... not monkeys, not horses, not flying mythological fabel beings, and not God or gods.

[Deleted User]

3rd time: How would the man in Luke 8:26-39 obeying the command of Jesus describe אלהים God ?

??? where did the man DESCRIBE GOD ?? Are you trying to turn Jesus into God because he did works by God's power and in accordance with God's will?

You are asking an irrelevant question that makes no sense within the context of the passage .... (so you don't get overexcited ... my Scripture support is the very text in Lk 8:26-39.)

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Wolfgang August 4 There is no scripture that says a human being can be God.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 5 Who is the biological father for Jesus ?

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 5 Repeating: Who is the biological father for Jesus ? (per Matthew 1:22-23, Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 9:6, & Luke 1:26-38)

@Wolfgang August 5 According to those scriptures, God - by means of a miracle conception in Mary - is the biological father of Jesus.

@Wolfgang August 5 God was also the biological father of Adam ... obviously not by means of a conception but by means of creating a whole "adult" human being.

@Wolfgang August 5 Simple and plain truth .... just don't turn Mary into having conceived God by God ... as you would then make yourself a Greek mythologist. Women can only conceive human beings ... not monkeys, not horses, not flying mythological fabel beings, and not God or gods.@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

We agree God The Father is the biological father of Jesus. Scripture text simply says Holy God conceived Holy child inside Mary when The Word (quality fully being eternal God) chose to dwell inside a male human body (John 1:1-18). Thankful for One plural God's breath of life into dust to create a whole "adult" male human being, which had DNA inside living cells that could be formed into a whole "adult" woman human being plus biological reproduction design for a singular offspring (seed) of the woman (Genesis 3:15) to be Holy conceived by God with The Word portion of One God => the man Jesus had The Word portion of One God inside Holy human body.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 5 Curious about your view for what μονογενῆ describes in => Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. (John 3:16 SBLGNT)

Repeating request for your view about what μονογενῆ describes in => Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. (John 3:16 SBLGNT)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 5 3rd time: How would the man in Luke 8:26-39 obeying the command of Jesus describe אלהים God ?

@Wolfgang August 5 ??? where did the man DESCRIBE GOD ?? Are you trying to turn Jesus into God because he did works by God's power and in accordance with God's will?

@Wolfgang August 5 You are asking an irrelevant question that makes no sense within the context of the passage .... (so you don't get overexcited ... my Scripture support is the very text in Lk 8:26-39.)

And they sailed to the region of the Gerasenes, which is opposite Galilee. And as he got out on the land, a certain man from the town met him who had demons and for a considerable time had not worn clothes and did not live in a house, but among the tombs. And when he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before him, and said with a loud voice, “What do I have to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me!” For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. (For it had seized him many times, and he was bound with chains and shackles and was guarded, and breaking the bonds he would be driven by the demon into the deserted places.) So Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion,” because many demons had entered into him. And they began imploring him that he would not order them to depart into the abyss. Now there was a large herd of pigs feeding there on the hill, and they implored him that he would permit them to enter into those pigs. And he permitted them. So the demons came out of the man and entered into the pigs, and the herd rushed headlong down the steep slope into the lake and were drowned. And when the herdsmen saw what had happened, they fled and reported it in the town and in the countryside. So they went out to see what had happened, and they came to Jesus and found the man from whom the demons had gone out sitting there clothed and in his right mind, at the feet of Jesus, and they were afraid. And those who had seen it reported to them how the man who had been demon-possessed had been healed. And all the people of the surrounding region of the Gerasenes asked him to depart from them, because they had been seized with great fear. So he got into the boat and returned. And the man from whom the demons had gone out was begging him to stay with him, but he sent him away, saying, “Return to your home and tell all that God has done for you.” And he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole town all that Jesus had done for him. (Luke 8:26-39 LEB)

What is the deity implication from the command spoken by Jesus: “Return to your home and tell all that God has done for you.” ? (Jesus spoke so the entire Legion of demons left the man in obedience to the command of Jesus => entered into large herd of pigs for drowning destruction)

If Jesus believed Jesus was NOT God, command to the man "to tell all that God has done for you" spoken by Jesus should have specified that Jesus is NOT God.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 5 Repeating question: Could Jesus be truly from above (John 8:21-24) without experiencing The Glory of The Father above in Holy Heaven ?

3rd time: Could Jesus be truly from above (John 8:21-24) without experiencing The Glory of The Father above in Holy Heaven ?

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

We agree {....} when The Word (quality fully being eternal God) chose to dwell inside a male human body (John 1:1-18).

NO ... we don't agree about "The Word chose to dwell inside a human body", because that is NOT what is said in Scripture!!

Scripture does NOT teach that "the word" is a person who does any actions, e.g. "chosing".

Scripture does NOT teach that "the word" is living inside a human body.

Repeating request for your view about what μονογενῆ describes in => Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. (John 3:16 SBLGNT)

Is it supposed to mean anything different from what it actually says ? Does it not refer to Jesus being the only human being conceived without a human male father contributing to the conception?

If Jesus believed Jesus was NOT God, command to the man "to tell all that God has done for you" spoken by Jesus should have specified that Jesus is NOT God.

?? Did Jesus act out of his own power ?? Or did he tell the man to give glory to God in whose authority and with whose power Jesus worked this healing deliverance`? There is no more "deity implication" in Jesus' words as there is in other human beings working miracles by the power of God and acknowledging that God had brought the deliverance and not them

3rd time: Could Jesus be truly from above (John 8:21-24) without experiencing The Glory of The Father above in Holy Heaven ?

Yes, he could ...

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 6 We agree {....} when The Word (quality fully being eternal God) chose to dwell inside a male human body (John 1:1-18).

@Wolfgang August 7 NO ... we don't agree about "The Word chose to dwell inside a human body", because that is NOT what is said in Scripture!!

@Wolfgang August 7 Scripture does NOT teach that "the word" is a person who does any actions, e.g. "chosing".

Without intelligent action by "The Word" to bring all things into being during אלהים God's creation, we would NOT be posting any comments.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being. In him was life, and the life was the light of humanity. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it. (John 1:1-5 LEB)

@Wolfgang August 7 Scripture does NOT teach that "the word" is living inside a human body.

Curious what John 1:14a "Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ" means to you ?

To me, John 1:14a "Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν" => "And The Word flesh became and took up residence among us" simply disagrees with your assertion 'Scripture does NOT teach that "the word" is living inside a human body.'

And the Word became flesh and took up residence among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the one and only from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testified about him and cried out, saying, “This one was he about whom I said, ‘The one who comes after me is ahead of me, because he existed before me.’ ” For from his fullness we have all received, and grace after grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came about through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known. (John 1:14-18 LEB)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 6 Repeating request for your view about what μονογενῆ describes in => Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλὰ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον. (John 3:16 SBLGNT)

@Wolfgang August 7 Is it supposed to mean anything different from what it actually says ? Does it not refer to Jesus being the only human being conceived without a human male father contributing to the conception?

Yes, the unique man Jesus μονογενῆ (only begotten) is truthfully consistent with "ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο" (The Word flesh became).

To me, John 1:1-18 is truthfully consistent with one of Paul's sentences, which is numbered Colossians 1:9-20 (LEB) => Because of this also we, from the day we heard about it, did not cease praying for you, and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual insight, so that you may live in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good deed and increasing in the knowledge of God, enabled with all power, according to his glorious might, for all steadfastness and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father who has qualified you for a share of the inheritance of the saints in light, who has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have the redemption, the forgiveness of sins, who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation, because all things in the heavens and on the earth were created by him, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers, all things were created through him and for him, and he himself is before all things, and in him all things are held together, and he himself is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself may become first in everything, because he was well pleased for all the fullness to dwell in him, and through him to reconcile all things to himself, by making peace through the blood of his cross, through him, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 6 What is the deity implication from the command spoken by Jesus: “Return to your home and tell all that God has done for you.” ? (Jesus spoke so the entire Legion of demons left the man in obedience to the command of Jesus => entered into large herd of pigs for drowning destruction)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 6 If Jesus believed Jesus was NOT God, command to the man "to tell all that God has done for you" spoken by Jesus should have specified that Jesus is NOT God.

@Wolfgang August 7 ?? Did Jesus act out of his own power ?? Or did he tell the man to give glory to God in whose authority and with whose power Jesus worked this healing deliverance`? There is no more "deity implication" in Jesus' words as there is in other human beings working miracles by the power of God and acknowledging that God had brought the deliverance and not them

If God knew Jesus was NOT God, command to the man "to tell all that God has done for you" spoken by Jesus in Luke 8:26-39 should have specified that Jesus is NOT God. No scripture describes any demon disobeying Jesus. Acts 19:11-20 includes demon: "Jesus I know, and Paul I am acquainted with, but who are you ?" so one demon possessed human prevailed over would be human exorcists using names of Jesus and Paul.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 6 3rd time: Could Jesus be truly from above (John 8:21-24) without experiencing The Glory of The Father above in Holy Heaven ?

@Wolfgang August 7 Yes, he could ...

Please describe how Jesus could be truly from above (John 8:21-24) without experiencing The Glory of The Father above in Holy Heaven.

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

Curious what John 1:14a "Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ" means to you ?

It means the same as what I read in a German or English Bible. That which existed in the form of "(God's) word" -- God's proclaimed word, plan of a human Messiah became reality when that human was conceived and born (cp. 1Pe 1:20).

Nothing about a living being "the Word" as God or part of God willfully turning itself for a while into a human being or occupying a human body, or any other ancient mythological concept found in this or any other scripture.

Actually, the German Bible is easier to understand, because the German word for the Greek λόγος is neuter gender "Wort" ... while English noun "word" is often turned into a masculine "he" instead of the correct "it".

If God knew Jesus was NOT God, command to the man "to tell all that God has done for you" spoken by Jesus in Luke 8:26-39 should have specified that Jesus is NOT God.

Throw your false assumptive "If God knew ...he should have ..." into the trash bin where it belongs ... together with your illogical conclusions based on your false premise.

Please describe how Jesus could be truly from above (John 8:21-24) without experiencing The Glory of The Father above in Holy Heaven.

your broken record doesn't get fixed by playing it over ans over .... clean it up. It has been already pointed out plenty of times from scripture how this could be ... but you do NOT WANT to see or hear.

A small hint for my last attempt to help you: God's plan in His foreknowledge comes BEFORE its realization of the plan in reality (cp. 1Pe 1:20; Gal 4:4) ... and in God's plan for the Messiah, the realization of his sufferings came before the realization of his glorification.

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

Curious what John 1:14a "Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ" means to you ?

@Wolfgang August 8 It means the same as what I read in a German or English Bible. That which existed in the form of "(God's) word" -- God's proclaimed word, plan of a human Messiah became reality when that human was conceived and born (cp. 1Pe 1:20).

Curious what προεγνωσμένου means to you in the sentence numbered 1 Peter 1:17-21 => Καὶ εἰ πατέρα ἐπικαλεῖσθε τὸν ἀπροσωπολήμπτως κρίνοντα κατὰ τὸ ἑκάστου ἔργον, ἐν φόβῳ τὸν τῆς παροικίας ὑμῶν χρόνον ἀναστράφητε· εἰδότες ὅτι οὐ φθαρτοῖς, ἀργυρίῳ ἢ χρυσίῳ, ἐλυτρώθητε ἐκ τῆς ματαίας ὑμῶν ἀναστροφῆς πατροπαραδότου, ἀλλὰ τιμίῳ αἵματι ὡς ἀμνοῦ ἀμώμου καὶ ἀσπίλου Χριστοῦ, προεγνωσμένου μὲν πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου, φανερωθέντος δὲ ἐπʼ ἐσχάτου τῶν χρόνων διʼ ὑμᾶς τοὺς διʼ αὐτοῦ πιστοὺς εἰς θεὸν τὸν ἐγείραντα αὐτὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν καὶ δόξαν αὐτῷ δόντα, ὥστε τὴν πίστιν ὑμῶν καὶ ἐλπίδα εἶναι εἰς θεόν. (1 Peter 1:17-21 SBLGNT)

To me, 1 Peter 1:20 προεγνωσμένου (foreknowledge) has a "πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου" (before foundation of world) truthful parallels with Jesus experiencing God's Glory (John 17:5) & God's Love (John 17:24) when אלהים God planned creation that included The Messiah (The Christ) being the biological son of אלהים God (miraculous Holy conception with virgin Mary) having name Yeshua (Jesus) that means "יהוה Yahweh Salvation"

@Wolfgang August 8 Nothing about a living being "the Word" as God or part of God willfully turning itself for a while into a human being or occupying a human body, or any other ancient mythological concept found in this or any other scripture.

Noticed John 1:1-5 text has life & light twice describing "The Word" => In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being. In him was life, and the life was the light of humanity. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it. (John 1:1-5 LEB)

Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world! The one who follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” (John 8:12 LEB) that reminds me of => And אלהים God said, “Let there be light!” And there was light. (Genesis 1:3 LEB) & => יהוה Yahweh is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? יהוה Yahweh is the refuge of my life; of whom shall I be afraid? (Psalm 27:1 LEB)

Now when he heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee. And leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum by the sea, in the region of Zebulun and Naphtali, in order that what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah would be fulfilled, who said, “Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, toward the sea, on the other side of the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles— the people who sit in darkness have seen a great light, and the ones who sit in the land and shadow of death, a light has dawned on them.” From that time on, Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, because the kingdom of heaven is near.” (Matthew 4:12-17 LEB)

But there will be no gloom for those who were in distress. In former times he treated the land of Zebulun and Naphtali with contempt, but in the future he will honor the way of the sea beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the nations. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; light has shined on those who lived in a land of darkness. (Isaiah 9:1-2 LEB)

“The eye is the lamp of the body. Therefore if your eye is sincere, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is evil, your whole body will be dark. Therefore if the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! (Matthew 6:22-23 LEB)

“Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, deliver me from this hour’? But for this reason I have come to this hour! Father, glorify your name!” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have both glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” Now the crowd that stood there and heard it said it had thundered. Others were saying, “An angel has spoken to him!” Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not happened for my sake, but for your sake. Now is the judgment of this world! Now the ruler of this world will be thrown out! And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” (Now he said this to indicate by what sort of death he was going to die.) Then the crowd replied to him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever! And how do you say that the Son of Man must be lifted up? Who is this Son of Man?” So Jesus said to them, “Yet a little time the light is with you! Walk while you have the light, so that the darkness does not overtake you! And the one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. While you have the light, believe in the light, in order that you may become sons of light.” Jesus said these things, and then he went away and was hidden from them. (John 12:27-36 LEB) that includes Jewish crowd expectation of the Christ, the Messiah, being forever => "We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever!"

Therefore do not be sharers with them, for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the יהוה Lord. Live like children of light (for the fruit of the light is in all goodness and righteousness and truth), trying to learn what is well-pleasing to the יהוה Lord. And do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but rather even expose them. For it is shameful even to speak about the things being done by them in secret, but all things exposed by the light are made visible, for everything made visible is light. Therefore it says, Wake up, sleeper, and rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you. Therefore, consider carefully how you live, not as unwise but as wise, making the most of the time because the days are evil. (Ephesians 5:7-16 LEB)

And this is the message which we have heard from him and announce to you, that God is light and there is no darkness in him at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we do not have sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, so that he will forgive us our sins and will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:5-10 LEB)

Jesus saying: "I am the light of the world! The one who follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” (John 8:12) simply identifies The Word (Jesus) quality as fully אלהים God in human flesh, truthfully consistent with John 1:14-18 => And the Word became flesh and took up residence among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the one and only from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testified about him and cried out, saying, “This one was he about whom I said, ‘The one who comes after me is ahead of me, because he existed before me.’ ” For from his fullness we have all received, and grace after grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came about through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known. (LEB)

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

Curious what προεγνωσμένου means to you in the sentence numbered 1 Peter 1:17-21 => Καὶ εἰ πατέρα ἐπικαλεῖσθε τὸν ἀπροσωπολήμπτως κρίνοντα κατὰ τὸ ἑκάστου ἔργον, ἐν φόβῳ τὸν τῆς παροικίας ὑμῶν χρόνον ἀναστράφητε· εἰδότες ὅτι οὐ φθαρτοῖς, ἀργυρίῳ ἢ χρυσίῳ, ἐλυτρώθητε ἐκ τῆς ματαίας ὑμῶν ἀναστροφῆς πατροπαραδότου, ἀλλὰ τιμίῳ αἵματι ὡς ἀμνοῦ ἀμώμου καὶ ἀσπίλου Χριστοῦ, προεγνωσμένου μὲν πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου, φανερωθέντος δὲ ἐπʼ ἐσχάτου τῶν χρόνων διʼ ὑμᾶς τοὺς διʼ αὐτοῦ πιστοὺς εἰς θεὸν τὸν ἐγείραντα αὐτὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν καὶ δόξαν αὐτῷ δόντα, ὥστε τὴν πίστιν ὑμῶν καὶ ἐλπίδα εἶναι εἰς θεόν. (1 Peter 1:17-21 SBLGNT)

If you explain your point in English or German, I can answer .... Or are you saying there are different meanings to that passage in English, German or Greek?? Let's not show off language abilities, but rather keep the exchange in participants' common language, English

[Deleted User]

No one has seen God at any time;

So the God Jesus was invisible and what thousands of people saw was a product of their fantasy?

the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known. (LEB)

So one God was either in his own bosom then made himself known .... why did that God never mention that he was a mysterious invisible "three-voices-team" ?

Or perhaps there actually two Gods in your theology ... and you are in denial of that truth because such would contradict the clear only ONE is the true God?

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 9 Curious what προεγνωσμένου means to you in the sentence numbered 1 Peter 1:17-21 => Καὶ εἰ πατέρα ἐπικαλεῖσθε τὸν ἀπροσωπολήμπτως κρίνοντα κατὰ τὸ ἑκάστου ἔργον, ἐν φόβῳ τὸν τῆς παροικίας ὑμῶν χρόνον ἀναστράφητε· εἰδότες ὅτι οὐ φθαρτοῖς, ἀργυρίῳ ἢ χρυσίῳ, ἐλυτρώθητε ἐκ τῆς ματαίας ὑμῶν ἀναστροφῆς πατροπαραδότου, ἀλλὰ τιμίῳ αἵματι ὡς ἀμνοῦ ἀμώμου καὶ ἀσπίλου Χριστοῦ, προεγνωσμένου μὲν πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου, φανερωθέντος δὲ ἐπʼ ἐσχάτου τῶν χρόνων διʼ ὑμᾶς τοὺς διʼ αὐτοῦ πιστοὺς εἰς θεὸν τὸν ἐγείραντα αὐτὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν καὶ δόξαν αὐτῷ δόντα, ὥστε τὴν πίστιν ὑμῶν καὶ ἐλπίδα εἶναι εἰς θεόν. (1 Peter 1:17-21 SBLGNT)

@Wolfgang August 10 If you explain your point in English or German, I can answer .... Or are you saying there are different meanings to that passage in English, German or Greek?? Let's not show off language abilities, but rather keep the exchange in participants' common language, English

Translation of προεγνωσμένου as foreknown lacks some Greek verbal insight.

προεγνωσμένου => verb, perfect, passive, participle, singular, genetive, masculine: to foreknow, to have foreknowledge of

Greek perfect tense is completed action in past time with ongoing effect.

Greek phrase "πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου" (before the foundation of the world) is in three verses: John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, & 1 Peter 1:20

Ephesians 1:3-14 is a single Greek sentence => Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him in love, having predestined us to adoption through Jesus Christ to himself according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace that he bestowed on us in the beloved, in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace, that he caused to abound to us in all wisdom and insight, making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he purposed in him, for the administration of the fullness of times, to bring together all things in Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth, in him in whom also we were chosen, having been predestined according to the purpose of the One who works all things according to the counsel of his will, that we who hoped beforehand in Christ should be for the praise of his glory, in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory. (Ephesians 1:3-14 LEB)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 9  Jesus saying: "I am the light of the world! The one who follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” (John 8:12) simply identifies The Word (Jesus) quality as fully אלהים God in human flesh, truthfully consistent with John 1:14-18 => And the Word became flesh and took up residence among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the one and only from the Father, full of grace and truth. John testified about him and cried out, saying, “This one was he about whom I said, ‘The one who comes after me is ahead of me, because he existed before me.’ ” For from his fullness we have all received, and grace after grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came about through Jesus Christ. No one has seen God at any time; the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known. (LEB)

No one has seen God at any time;

@Wolfgang August 10 So the God Jesus was invisible and what thousands of people saw was a product of their fantasy?

Jesus (quality of The Word was fully God) became human flesh, which was visible to humans plus could be heard & touched as well as eat food. Hence, your question does not make sense to me (searching LEB for verses having Jesus AND invisible finds nothing).

the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known. (LEB)

@Wolfgang August 10 So one God was either in his own bosom then made himself known .... why did that God never mention that he was a mysterious invisible "three-voices-team" ?

What is plural in One God ? Hebrew אלהים e-lo-HEEM is plural, minimum of three (as Hebrew noun spelling variations has singular, dual, plural).

@Wolfgang August 10 Or perhaps there actually two Gods in your theology ... and you are in denial of that truth because such would contradict the clear only ONE is the true God?

Thankful for my Bible study resulting in my faith belief of One plural unique God, who is different than human beings created in the image of God. Every human being has one voice while One unique God has three voices in One being (commUnity of Love ❤️). We disagree about the number of voice(s) in One unique God. Searching Lexham Hebrew Bible for <Lemma = lbs/he/אֱלֹהִים> INTERSECTS <Person God> finds 2,330 plural results in 2,055 verses. Also One God inspired singular AND plural pronouns to describe One plural unique God: e.g. Genesis 1:26 LEB => And God said, “Let us make humankind in our image and according to our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every moving thing that moves upon the earth.”

Greek in John 1:18 => θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο. (John 1:18 SBLGNT) reminds me of ὁ ὢν in Exodus 3:14 => καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν λέγων Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν· καὶ εἶπεν Οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ἰσραήλ Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς. (Exodus 3:14 LXX), which is truthfully consistent with: "The Father and I are one" (John 10:30)

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

Translation of προεγνωσμένου as foreknown lacks some Greek verbal insight.

προεγνωσμένου => verb, perfect, passive, participle, singular, genetive, masculine: to foreknow, to have foreknowledge of

Greek perfect tense is completed action in past time with ongoing effect.

And what does that change in regards to the meaning in the statement from what the English or German translation means???

Greek phrase "πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου" (before the foundation of the world) is in three verses: John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, & 1 Peter 1:20

And what is different in meaning in Greek from a translated version? Where are English or German translations in error in their translation?

What is plural in One God ? Hebrew אלהים e-lo-HEEM is plural, minimum of three (as Hebrew noun spelling variations has singular, dual, plural).

The same as that which is plural in the queen of the UK, speaking officially of herself as, "WE, the queen, ...."

NOTHING is plural in God, but the use of the plural noun is linguistically a figure of speech by which the plural is used for a de facto singular for purpose of emphasis.

Thankful for my Bible study resulting in my faith belief of One plural unique God, who is different than human beings created in the image of God. Every human being has one voice while One unique God has three voices in One being (commUnity of Love ❤️).

Your study has resulted in (1) Jesus actually NOT being a man, a real human being, as Scripture teaches, (2) God being a "team of voices" rather than being one single God ....

We disagree about the number of voice(s) in One unique God.

Well, as I pointed out earlier, God obviously had quite a number of more voices who spoke for Him. He was not the voice or voices anyways ...

[Deleted User]

Also One God inspired singular AND plural pronouns to describe One plural unique God: e.g. Genesis 1:26 LEB => And God said, “Let us make humankind in our image and according to our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every moving thing that moves upon the earth.”

Hmn .. and God (or was it Mose?) who forgot in the very next sentence that God was a plural God ?? => Genesis 1:27 - "27 So God created (singular verb) man in his (singular) own image (was that the team logo?), in the image of God created he (singular) him; male and female created he (singular) them"

Which single voice of the plural voices actually did carry out what the voices team (the "us"/"our") had announced?

When will you linguist expert realize that the problem in your interpretation is ignoring the simple figure of speech used and interpreting literally what was emphasized by the use of the figure??

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 10 Translation of προεγνωσμένου as foreknown lacks some Greek verbal insight.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 10 προεγνωσμένου => verb, perfect, passive, participle, singular, genetive, masculine: to foreknow, to have foreknowledge of

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 10 Greek perfect tense is completed action in past time with ongoing effect.

@Wolfgang August 11 And what does that change in regards to the meaning in the statement from what the English or German translation means???

Holy God's plan of King Messiah redemption was completed: foreknown by יהוה Lord Jesus before the foundation of the world, appears as 300+ Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by the first coming of יהוה Lord Jesus: e.g. place of birth, donkey colt, manner of execution, & resurrection.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 10 Greek phrase "πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου" (before the foundation of the world) is in three verses: John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, & 1 Peter 1:20

@Wolfgang August 11 And what is different in meaning in Greek from a translated version? Where are English or German translations in error in their translation?

Not aware of translation issues for this prepositional phrase. Thankful for NIDNTTE observations in article about καταβολή (foundation)

Two points stand out in all the texts that mention the foundation of the world. First, it is always associated with a statement about human destiny. Second, there is an implied connection between God’s foreknowledge and predestination. In partic., Matt 25:34 and Eph 1:4 speak of election (see ἐκλέγομαι G1721). In the case of Rev 13:8 and 17:8, the theme is reprobation. Luke 11:50 (a lamentation of Jesus) and Heb 4:3 speak of historical failure for which account must be rendered. Finally, the unique, central position of Jesus Christ in the history of salvation is highlighted in Matt 13:35 (quoting Ps 78:2 [LXX 77:2], with some textual differences, such as καταβολή where LXX has ἀρχή); Heb 9:26; and 1 Pet 1:20 (cf. John 17:24). He reveals in the midst of history what has been hidden since the foundation of the world, and thus fixes the end of time.

The phrase “before the foundation of the world” (John 17:24; Eph 1:4; 1 Pet 1:20) is foreign to the OT and is prob. an attempt to express the independence of the Creator from his creation in the face of Hellenism—and thus to make his acts of salvation dependent on him alone.

 Moisés Silva, ed., New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology and Exegesis (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2014), 636.

Visible & audible in Greek is Peter's repetition of preposition πρὸ (before) in phrase "προεγνωσμένου μὲν πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου," as foreknown has Greek proposition πρὸ attached to verb εγνωσμένου (perfect, passive, participle of γινώσκω to know), implies perfect knowledge before foundation (Greek preposition κατα attached to verb βάλλω for noun: "Down to Throw" => creation, foundation). Original language word plays are challenging to translate into other languages.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 10 What is plural in One God ? Hebrew אלהים e-lo-HEEM is plural, minimum of three (as Hebrew noun spelling variations has singular, dual, plural).

@Wolfgang August 11 The same as that which is plural in the queen of the UK, speaking officially of herself as, "WE, the queen, ...."

Could the queen of UK be saying "WE (God & me), the queen, ..." ? FWIW: Google search found Queen Victoria "We are not amused ..."

Do any Bible verses have אלהים e-lo-HEEM (plural) God speaking as "WE, ..." ?

Several verses has אלהים e-lo-HEEM (plural) God speaking in third person "us" & "our" along with יהוה Yahweh => “For thus says יהוה Yahweh: ‘We have heard a sound of trembling, terror, and there is no peace. (Jeremiah 30:5 LEB)

But now thus says יהוה Yahweh, he who created you, Jacob, and he who formed you, Israel: “You must not fear, for I have redeemed you. I have called you by your name; you are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you, and through the rivers, they shall not flow over you. When you walk through fire, you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not scorch you. For I am יהוה Yahweh, your אלהים God, the holy one of Israel, your savior. I give you Egypt as ransom, Cush and Seba in place of you. Because you are precious in my eyes, you are honored, and I myself love you, and I give people in place of you, and nations in place of your life. You must not fear, for I am with you. I will bring your offspring from the east, and I will gather you from the west. I will say to the north, ‘Give!’ and to the south, ‘You must not withhold!’ Bring my sons from far away, and my daughters from the end of the earth— everyone who is called by my name, and whom I created for my glory, whom I formed, indeed whom I made.” Bring out the people blind yet with eyes, and deaf, though they have ears. Let all the nations gather together, and let the peoples assemble. Who among them has declared this, and declared the former things to us? Let them bring their witnesses, that they may be in the right, and let them hear and say, “It is true!” “You are my witnesses,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “and my servant whom I have chosen so that you may know and believe in me and understand that I am he. No אל god was formed before me, and none shall be after me. I myself am יהוה Yahweh, and there is no savior besides me! I myself declared and saved, and I proclaimed. And there was no strange אל god among you. And you are my witnesses,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “and I am אל God. Indeed, from this day I am the one, and no one can deliver from my hand. I perform, and who can cancel it?” (Isaiah 43:1-13 LEB)

Thus says יהוה Yahweh, the king of Israel, and its redeemer, יהוה Yahweh of hosts: “I am the first, and I am the last, and there is no אלהים god besides me. (Isaiah 44:6 LEB with two Hebrew lemmas) has two subjects for "I am ..." (unique יהוה unity)

If Jesus is NOT יהוה Yahweh of hosts, then Jesus is NOT savior for any human since only יהוה Yahweh is savior (Isaiah 43:3 & Isaiah 43:11-12) with no reason to make Jesus יהוה Lord in a person's life.

In contrast, if Jesus is יהוה Yahweh of hosts, then have Holy GOd Love ❤️ reason to choose Jesus as my יהוה Lord & Savior (my redeemer Lives).

@Wolfgang August 11 NOTHING is plural in God, but the use of the plural noun is linguistically a figure of speech by which the plural is used for a de facto singular for purpose of emphasis.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 10 Also One God inspired singular AND plural pronouns to describe One plural unique God: e.g. Genesis 1:26 LEB => And God said, “Let us make humankind in our image and according to our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every moving thing that moves upon the earth.”

@Wolfgang August 11 Hmn .. and God (or was it Mose?) who forgot in the very next sentence that God was a plural God ?? => Genesis 1:27 - "27 So God created (singular verb) man in his (singular) own image (was that the team logo?), in the image of God created he (singular) him; male and female created he (singular) them"

@Wolfgang August 11 Which single voice of the plural voices actually did carry out what the voices team (the "us"/"our") had announced?

To me, question wording assumes plural "us"/"our" is a figure of speech that should be interpreted as a single voice.

To me, Genesis 1:27-28 & Genesis 2:7 singular pronouns referring to One Holy God describes all three voices unified as One God created humankind in the singular image of Holy God => So אלהים God created humankind in his image, in the likeness of אלהים God he created him, male and female he created them. And אלהים God blessed them, and אלהים God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it, and rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of heaven, and over every animal that moves upon the earth.” (Genesis 1:27-28 LEB) & when יהוה Yahweh אלהים God formed the man of dust from the ground, and he blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. (Genesis 2:7 LEB) that is truly consistent with Light & Life verses in my August 9 post.

@Wolfgang August 11 When will you linguist expert realize that the problem in your interpretation is ignoring the simple figure of speech used and interpreting literally what was emphasized by the use of the figure??

Wonder if you will ask yourself => Did Holy God truly inspire plural אלהים e-lo-HEEM to literally describe One God ? (NOT a figure of speech)

Thankful for personal encounters with three voices in One Holy God 😍 in Scripture passages plus with one who had been to Holy Heaven & came back to earth (so interpreting plural אלהים e-lo-HEEM describing God as a figure of speech is a falsehood to me, which has potential for being outside as described in Revelation 22:15 when יהוה Lord Jesus righteously judges individual motivation resulting in words & actions).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 10 Thankful for my Bible study resulting in my faith belief of One plural unique God, who is different than human beings created in the image of God. Every human being has one voice while One unique God has three voices in One being (commUnity of Love ❤️).

@Wolfgang August 11 Your study has resulted in (1) Jesus actually NOT being a man, a real human being, as Scripture teaches, (2) God being a "team of voices" rather than being one single God ....

If a "real human being" is one who inherited sin-stained spiritual nature from Adam, then we agree that Jesus is NOT a "real human being" (Jesus is the only begotten Holy Son of God, who is uniquely different than Adam, Jesus is The Word of God inside male human body => Romans 5:12-21)

To me, what is plural about One Holy God is a "team of three voices" in One commUnity of Love ❤️ as documented in Scripture: at times, the three speak as one unified God voice while at other times, three voices are individually distinct to do Holy God's Righteous Loving Will.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 10 We disagree about the number of voice(s) in One unique God.

@Wolfgang August 11 Well, as I pointed out earlier, God obviously had quite a number of more voices who spoke for Him. He was not the voice or voices anyways ...

We agree that One God spoke through a number of "real human beings" (prophets) so those "real human beings" spoke inspired words from God while NOT being/becoming God: e.g. Moses choose to sin at the waters of Meribah (Numbers 20:1-13), King David sinned with Bathsheba & Uriah.

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

Holy God's plan of King Messiah redemption was completed: foreknown by יהוה Lord Jesus before the foundation of the world, appears as 300+ Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by the first coming of יהוה Lord Jesus: e.g. place of birth, donkey colt, manner of execution, & resurrection.

"foreknown by יהוה Lord Jesus before the foundation of the world" is an incorrect statement.... Jesus existed in his Father's (in God's) foreknowledge ... NOT in his "foreknowledge". Actually, Jesus is not mentioned in Scripture as having foreknowledge of himself ... anything he knew concerning events in his future, he knew because and only after God had revealed it to him (same as was the case with other prophets prophesying things that were in their future.

[Deleted User]

Visible & audible in Greek is Peter's repetition of preposition πρὸ (before) in phrase "προεγνωσμένου μὲν πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου," as foreknown has Greek proposition πρὸ attached to verb εγνωσμένου (perfect, passive, participle of γινώσκω to know), implies perfect knowledge before foundation (Greek preposition κατα attached to verb βάλλω for noun: "Down to Throw" => creation, foundation). Original language word plays are challenging to translate into other languages.

So what is your point in regards the meaning of this statement? It says NOTHING about Jesus living before the foundation of the world and having foreknowledge of himself ...

To me, question wording assumes plural "us"/"our" is a figure of speech that should be interpreted as a single voice.

It does NOT assume anything, it recognizes logically the presence of such figure from the use of words in both v.26 and 27.

Wonder if you will ask yourself => Did Holy God truly inspire plural אלהים e-lo-HEEM to literally describe One God ? (NOT a figure of speech)

Why wonder about what the text says? The use of the plural noun is used in Hebrew in two ways and contexts : (1) when used of plural beings with plural verbs it means GODS (plural); (2) when used of a singular being with singular verbs it means THE single TRUE GOD.

Thankful for personal encounters with three voices in One Holy God 😍 in Scripture passages plus with one who had been to Holy Heaven & came back to earth (so interpreting plural אלהים e-lo-HEEM describing God as a figure of speech is a falsehood to me, which has potential for being outside as described in Revelation 22:15 when יהוה Lord Jesus righteously judges individual motivation resulting in words & actions).

WOW, WOW, WOW .... I had one personal encounter with some guy at the IHOP restaurant in Maitland, FL in 1978 who claimed to be Jesus Christ ... what he said and did was indicative of a severe mental problem and being possessed with some fix idea.

Should I now be impressed by your personal encounters on which you seem to base your views?

If a "real human being" is one who inherited sin-stained spiritual nature from Adam, then we agree that Jesus is NOT a "real human being" (Jesus is the only begotten Holy Son of God, who is uniquely different than Adam, Jesus is The Word of God inside male human body => Romans 5:12-21)

False "IF ..." premise as basis for your argument and your definition of "real human being" as being defined by "inherited sin-stained spiritual nature". This apparently stems from false reading / interpretation of Rom 5:12-21 passage.

To me, what is plural about One Holy God is a "team of three voices" in One commUnity of Love ❤️ as documented in Scripture: at times, the three speak as one unified God voice while at other times, three voices are individually distinct to do Holy God's Righteous Loving Will.

"Fancy idea" ... just NOT what is stated and taught in Scripture. God is NOT a "team [of any kind]".

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 17 Holy God's plan of King Messiah redemption was completed: foreknown by יהוה Lord Jesus before the foundation of the world, appears as 300+ Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by the first coming of יהוה Lord Jesus: e.g. place of birth, donkey colt, manner of execution, & resurrection.

@Wolfgang August 17 "foreknown by יהוה Lord Jesus before the foundation of the world" is an incorrect statement.... Jesus existed in his Father's (in God's) foreknowledge ... NOT in his "foreknowledge". Actually, Jesus is not mentioned in Scripture as having foreknowledge of himself ... anything he knew concerning events in his future, he knew because and only after God had revealed it to him (same as was the case with other prophets prophesying things that were in their future.

And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side before the world existed. (John 17:5 LEB)

Jesus was at the Father's side before אלהים God created the world so Scripture text spoken by Jesus simply disagrees with your idea 'Actually, Jesus is not mentioned in Scripture as having foreknowledge of himself'.

Jesus is different than all other prophets as Jesus knew what Old Testament prophecies applied to Jesus as described on the road to Emmaus => And behold, on that same day, two of them were traveling to a village named Emmaus that was sixty stadia distant from Jerusalem, and they were conversing with one another about all these things that had happened. And it happened that while they were conversing, and discussing, Jesus himself also approached and began to go along with them, but their eyes were prevented from recognizing him. And he said to them, “What are these matters that you are discussing with one another as you are walking along?” And they stood still, looking sad. And one of them, named Cleopas, answered and said to him, “Are you the only one living near Jerusalem and not knowing the things that have happened in it in these days?” And he said to them, “What things?” So they said to him, “The things concerning Jesus the Nazarene, a man who was a prophet, powerful in deed and word before God and all the people, and how our chief priests and rulers handed him over to a sentence of death, and crucified him. But we were hoping that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. But in addition to all these things, this is the third day since these things took place. But also some women from among us astonished us, who were at the tomb early in the morning, and when they did not find his body, they came back saying they had seen even a vision of angels, who said that he was alive! And some of those with us went out to the tomb and found it like this, just as the women had also said, but him they did not see.” And he said to them, “O foolish and slow in heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Was it not necessary that the Christ suffer these things and enter into his glory?” And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he interpreted to them the things concerning himself in all the scriptures. And they drew near to the village where they were going, and he acted as though he was going farther. And they urged him strongly, saying, “Stay with us, because it is getting toward evening, and by this time the day is far spent.” And he went in to stay with them. And it happened that when he reclined at the table with them, he took the bread and gave thanks, and after breaking it, he gave it to them. And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him, and he became invisible to them. And they said to one another, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he was speaking with us on the road, while he was explaining the scriptures to us?” And they got up that same hour and returned to Jerusalem and found the eleven and those with them assembled, saying, “The Lord has really been raised, and has appeared to Simon!” And they began describing what happened on the road, and how he was recognized by them in the breaking of the bread. (Luke 24:13-35 LEB)

Also Jesus is unique from other prophets in physical resurrection of human body from the dead => Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die forever. Do you believe this?” (John 11:25-26 LEB) is truthfully consistent with "You believe in God; believe also in me." in John 14:1 (literal translation is: "Be Ye Believing in/to The God and/also in/to Me Be Ye Believing"). One Holy יהוה God = יהוה Father & יהוה Jesus & יהוה Breath The Holy (three distinct voices in One plural unique God).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 17 Visible & audible in Greek is Peter's repetition of preposition πρὸ (before) in phrase "προεγνωσμένου μὲν πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου," as foreknown has Greek proposition πρὸ attached to verb εγνωσμένου (perfect, passive, participle of γινώσκω to know), implies perfect knowledge before foundation (Greek preposition κατα attached to verb βάλλω for noun: "Down to Throw" => creation, foundation). Original language word plays are challenging to translate into other languages.

@Wolfgang August 17 So what is your point in regards the meaning of this statement? It says NOTHING about Jesus living before the foundation of the world and having foreknowledge of himself ...

And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves with fear during the time of your temporary residence, because you know that you were redeemed from your futile way of life inherited from your ancestors not with perishable things like silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb who was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has been revealed in these last times for you who through him are believing in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (1 Peter 1:17-21 LEB is a single Greek sentence, which shows in LEB punctuation.)

@Wolfgang August 11 When will you linguist expert realize that the problem in your interpretation is ignoring the simple figure of speech used and interpreting literally what was emphasized by the use of the figure??

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 17 Wonder if you will ask yourself => Did Holy God truly inspire plural אלהים e-lo-HEEM to literally describe One God ? (NOT a figure of speech)

@Wolfgang August 17 Why wonder about what the text says? The use of the plural noun is used in Hebrew in two ways and contexts : (1) when used of plural beings with plural verbs it means GODS (plural); (2) when used of a singular being with singular verbs it means THE single TRUE GOD.

Noticed a mixture of singular and plural verbs in Genesis 1:26-27 => And אלהים God (plural) said, “Let (plural) us (plural) make (plural) humankind in our (plural) image and according to our (plural) likeness, and let (plural) them (plural) rule (plural) over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every moving thing that moves upon the earth.” So אלהים God (plural) created humankind in his image, in the likeness of אלהים God (plural) he created him, male and female he created them. (Genesis 1:26-27 LEB)

According to Abraham in Genesis 20:13, does plural verb with plural אלהים e-lo-HEEM describe One God OR plural gods ?

And it happened that as אלהים God (plural) caused (plural) me to (plural) wander (plural) from the house of my father I said to her, ‘This is your loyal kindness that you must do for me at every place where we come: say concerning me, “He is my brother.” ’ ” (Genesis 20:13 LEB)

And Pharaoh sent and called Moses and Aaron and said to them, “I have sinned this time. יהוה Yahweh is the righteous one, and I and my people are the wicked ones. Pray (plural) to יהוה Yahweh. The thunder of אלהים God (plural) and hail are enough, and I will release you, and you will no longer (plural) have (plural) to (plural) stay (plural).” And Moses said to him, “At my leaving the city, I will spread out my hands to יהוה Yahweh. The thunder (plural) will stop, and the hail will be no more, so that you will know that the earth belongs to יהוה Yahweh. But as for you and your servants, I know that you (plural) do (plural) not yet fear (plural) the presence of יהוה Yahweh אלהים God (plural).” (Exodus 9:27-30 LEB)

“For thus says יהוה Yahweh: ‘We (plural) have (plural) heard (plural) a sound of trembling, terror, and there is no peace. (Jeremiah 30:5 LEB)

FYI: Logos Bible Software Morph Search of Lexham Hebrew Bible for (<Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> OR <Lemma = lbs/he/אֱלֹהִים>) WITHIN 5 WORDS <LogosMorphHeb ~ V????P???> included Genesis 1:26, Genesis 20:13, Exodus 9:28-30, & Jeremiah 30:5 in results (looking for plural verb)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 17 If a "real human being" is one who inherited sin-stained spiritual nature from Adam, then we agree that Jesus is NOT a "real human being" (Jesus is the only begotten Holy Son of God, who is uniquely different than Adam, Jesus is The Word of God inside male human body => Romans 5:12-21)

@Wolfgang August 17 False "IF ..." premise as basis for your argument and your definition of "real human being" as being defined by "inherited sin-stained spiritual nature". This apparently stems from false reading / interpretation of Rom 5:12-21 passage.

Romans 5:12 'Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned. ' describes "real human being" inheritance of sin-stained spiritual nature from Adam. Also Romans 5:12-21 describes Jesus being life (different than sin death of/from Adam), which is truly consistent with Light & Life verses in my August 9 post.

Because of this, just as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death spread to all people because all sinned. For until the law, sin was in the world, but sin is not charged to one’s account when there is no law. But death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who is to come. But the gift is not like the trespass, for if by the trespass of the one, the many died, by much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, multiply to the many. And the gift is not as through the one who sinned, for on the one hand, judgment from the one sin led to condemnation, but the gift, from many trespasses, led to justification. For if by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through the one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ. Consequently therefore, as through one trespass came condemnation to all people, so also through one righteous deed came justification of life to all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous. Now the law came in as a side issue, in order that the trespass could increase, but where sin increased, grace was present in greater abundance, so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our יהוה Lord. (Romans 5:12-21 LEB)

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

@Wolfgang August 17 "foreknown by יהוה Lord Jesus before the foundation of the world" is an incorrect statement.... Jesus existed in his Father's (in God's) foreknowledge ... NOT in his "foreknowledge". Actually, Jesus is not mentioned in Scripture as having foreknowledge of himself ... anything he knew concerning events in his future, he knew because and only after God had revealed it to him (same as was the case with other prophets prophesying things that were in their future.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side before the world existed. (John 17:5 LEB)

Jesus was at the Father's side before אלהים God created the world so Scripture text spoken by Jesus simply disagrees with your idea 'Actually, Jesus is not mentioned in Scripture as having foreknowledge of himself'.

Your theological glasses make it impossible for you to read what the TEXT a verse ACTUALLY SAYS ...

• There is nothing about "at your side" in Joh 17:5
• There is nothing about Jesus living before the world existed.

The TEXT of John 17:5 disagrees completely with your ideas ... and - unfortunately - the LEB translation here is more an interpretive adaptation, based rather on a trinity dogma than the Greek or Aramaic text ... perhaps in part for economic reason since by far most of zje customer base is trinitarian in some form?

... Christ, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb who was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has been revealed in these last times for you...

Again your reading (as seen in your emphasizing bold print and the context of this exchange) and the actual text totally disagree ...

• TEXT => Christ was foreknown by God, his heavenly Father
• YOU => Christ foreknew himself ...

Rest of your post continues with more of the same ... not worth my time to point out those details, as that would be - as has been in the past - a waste of time since at this point in time you seemingly simply can't see (realize) what the Biblical text actually says nor what you are actually doing to the text. 😪

[Deleted User]

1. Is יהוה (yhwh) singular or plural?
2. Is יהוה (yhwh) a reference to a group or team?
3. Is יהוה (yhwh) a reference to single person, living being ?
4. Do יהוה (yhwh) and אֱלֹהִים (ʾělō·hîm) refer to the same person, living being [the Most High, God] ?

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Wolfgang August 17 "foreknown by יהוה Lord Jesus before the foundation of the world" is an incorrect statement.... Jesus existed in his Father's (in God's) foreknowledge ... NOT in his "foreknowledge". Actually, Jesus is not mentioned in Scripture as having foreknowledge of himself ... anything he knew concerning events in his future, he knew because and only after God had revealed it to him (same as was the case with other prophets prophesying things that were in their future.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 18 And now, Father, you glorify me at your side with the glory that I had at your side before the world existed. (John 17:5 LEB)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus August 18 Jesus was at the Father's side before אלהים God created the world so Scripture text spoken by Jesus simply disagrees with your idea 'Actually, Jesus is not mentioned in Scripture as having foreknowledge of himself'.

@Wolfgang August 19 Your theological glasses make it impossible for you to read what the TEXT a verse ACTUALLY SAYS ...

To me, your words describe your interpretation of John 17:5 that does not want to believe what the Greek text actually says.

@Wolfgang August 19 * There is nothing about "at your side" in John 17:5 

@Wolfgang August 19 * There is nothing about Jesus living before the world existed.

And now, Father, you glorify me [at your side] * with the glory that I had [at your side] ** before the world existed. (John 17:5 LEB)

* Literally “by the side of yourself” παρὰ σεαυτῷ

** Literally “by the side of you” τοῦ => παρὰ σοί

@Wolfgang August 19 The TEXT of John 17:5 disagrees completely with your ideas ... and - unfortunately - the LEB translation here is more an interpretive adaptation, based rather on a trinity dogma than the Greek or Aramaic text ... perhaps in part for economic reason since by far most of zje customer base is trinitarian in some form?

Curious about your English translation of => καὶ νῦν δόξασόν με σύ, πάτερ, παρὰ σεαυτῷ τῇ δόξῃ ᾗ εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι παρὰ σοί. (John 17:5 SBLGNT)

δόξασόν verb, aorist, active, imperative, 2nd person, singular: to glorify (aorist is the least expressive Greek tense, imperative = command)

εἶχον verb, imperfect, active, indicative, 1st person, singular: to have (imperfect is continuous action in past time, active & indicative => true from speaker's point of view)

εἶναι verb, present, active, infinitive: to be, to exist

παρὰ is a preposition, which has locative (dative) uses in John 17:5

(k) Παρά

1. Significance. Delbrück does not find the etymology of παρά clear and thinks it probably is not to be connected with párā (Sanskrit), which means ‘distant.’ Brugmann connects it with the old word purā́ like Latin por-, Gothic faúra, Anglo-Saxon fore (cf. German vor). Giles thinks the same root furnishes παρός (gen.), παρά (instr.), παραί (dat.), περί (loc.). He also sees a kinship in these to πέραν, πέρα, πρός.

2. Compared with πρός. In meaning παρά and πρός do not differ essentially save that παρά merely means ‘beside,’ ‘alongside’ (cf. our “parallel”), while πρός rather suggests ‘facing one another,’ an additional idea of contrast. This oldest meaning explains all the later developments. Radermacher (N. T. Gr., p. 116) thinks that the N. T. shows confusion in the use of παρά (διελογίζοντο παρʼ [marg. of W. H. and Nestle, ἐν in text] ἑαυτοῖς, Mt. 21:25) and διελογίζοντο πρὸς ἑαυτούς (Mk. 11:31). But is it not diversity the rather?

3. In Composition. The preposition is exceedingly common in composition, though with nouns it falls behind some of the others a good deal. Παρά does not survive in modern Greek vernacular save in composition (like ἀνά and ἐκ) and some of its functions go to ἀπό and εἰς. All the various developments of παρά appear in composition, and the simplest use is very common. Thus παραβολή (Mk. 13:28) is a ‘placing of one thing beside another.’ So παρα-θαλάσσιος (Mt. 4:13) is merely ‘beside the sea.’ Cf. also παρα-θήκη (2 Tim. 1:14), παρα-καθεσθείς (Lu. 10:39), παρα-καλέω (Ac. 28:20), παρά-κλητος (Jo. 14:16), παρα-λέγομαι (Ac. 27:8), παρ-άλιος (Lu. 6:17), παρα-μένω (Heb. 7:23; cf. μενῶ καὶ παρα-μενῶ Ph. 1:25), παρα-πλέω (Ac. 20:16), παρα-ρρέω (Heb. 2:1), παρα-τίθημι (Mk. 6:41), πάρ-ειμι (Lu. 13:1), etc. A specially noticeable word is πάρ-οινος (1 Tim. 3:3). Cf. also ἀντι-παρ-ῆλθεν in Lu. 10:31 f. Sometimes παρά suggests a notion of stealth as in παρ-εισ-άγω (2 Pet. 2:1), παρ-εισ-δύω (Ju. 4), παρ-είσ-ακτος (Gal. 2:4), but in παρ-εισ-έρχομαι in Ro. 5:20 this notion is not present. Cf. Mt. 14:15, ἡ ὥρα ἤδη παρῆλθεν, ‘the hour is already far spent’ (‘gone by’). Note also the Scotch “far in” like modern Greek παραμέσα (Moulton, Prol., p. 247). A few examples of the “perfective” use occur as in παροξύνω (Ac. 17:16), παρα-πικραίνω (Heb. 3:16), παρά-σημος (Ac. 28:11), παρα-τηρέω (Gal. 4:10, but in Lu. 14:1 the idea of envious watching comes out). With παρα-φρονέω the notion is rather ‘to be beside one’s self,’ ‘out of mind.’ Cf. also παρα-πίπτω in Heb. 6:6, found in the ostraca (Wilcken, i. 78 f.) as a commercial word ‘to fall below par.’ For παρενοχλεῖν (Ac. 15:19) see παρενοχλεῖν ἡμᾶς, P. Tb. 36 (ii/b.c.). Παρά occurs in the N. T. with three cases. The locative has 50 examples, the accusative 60, the ablative 78.

4. With the Locative. Παρά with the locative is nearly confined to persons. Only one other example appears, ἱστήκεισαν παρὰ τῷ σταυρῷ (Jo. 19:25). This confining of παρά to persons is like the usual Greek idiom, though Homer used it freely with both. Homer used it also as an adverb and in the shortened form πάρ. The only instance in the N. T. of the locative with παρά after a verb of motion is in Lu. 9:47, ἔστησεν αὐτὸ παρʼ ἑαυτῷ, though here D reads ἑαυτόν. The locative with παρά leaves the etymological idea unchanged so that we see the preposition in its simplest usage. Cf. ὃν ἀπέλειπον παρὰ Κάρπῳ (2 Tim. 4:13) as a typical example of the use with persons which is much like apvd in Latin, ‘at one’s house’ (Jo. 1:40), ‘in his society,’ etc. So καταλῦσαι παρά (Lu. 19:7), μένω παρά (Jo. 14:17), ξενίζω παρά (Ac. 21:16). Cf. Ac. 21:8. In Rev. 2:13; Mt. 28:15, παρά has the idea of ‘among.’ The phrase παρὰ τῷ θεῷ (Lu. 1:30) is common. The word is used in ethical relations, also like παρʼ ἐμοί (2 Cor. 1:17). Cf. τί ἄπιστον κρίνεται παρʼ ὑμῖν (Ac. 26:8) and φρόνιμοι παρʼ ἑαυτοῖς (Ro. 12:16). Παρά with the locative does not occur in Hebrews.

5. With the Ablative. But it occurs only with persons (like the older Greek). The distinction between παρά and ἀπό and ἐκ has already been made. In Mk. 8:11 both παρά and ἀπό occur, ζητοῦντες παρʼ αὐτοῦ σημεῖον ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ (cf. 12:2), and in Jo. 1:40 we have both παρά and ἐκ, εἷς ἐκ τῶν δύο τῶν ἀκουσάντων παρὰ Ἰωάνου. In a case like Jo. 8:38 the locative is followed by the ablative, ὲώρακα παρὰ τῷ πατρί—ἠκούσατε παρὰ τοῦ πατρός, though some MSS. have locative in the latter clause also. But the ablative here is in strict accordance with Greek usage as in a case like ἀκοῦσαι παρὰ σοῦ (Ac. 10:22). On the other hand in Jo. 6:45 f. we find the ablative in both instances, ὁ ἀκούσας παρὰ τοῦ πατρός—ὁ ὢν παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ (cf. ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρός in Jo. 1:18). But this last παρὰ implies the coming of Christ from the Father, like παρὰ τοῦ πατρὸς ἐξῆλθον (Jo. 16:27). Παρά with the ablative means ‘from the side of’ as with the accusative it means ‘to the side of.’ The phrase οἱ παρʼ αὐτοῦ therefore describes one’s family or kinsmen (Mk. 3:21). In the papyri the phrase is very common for one’s agents, and Moulton4 has found one or two like οἱ παρʼ ἡμῶν πάντες parallel to οἱ παρʼ αὐτοῦ in Mk. 3:21. Cf. also τὰ παρʼ αὐτῶν (Lu. 10:7) for one’s resources or property. Rouffiac (Recherches, etc., p. 30) cites ἐδαπάνησεν παρʼ ἑαυτοῦ (cf. Mk. 5:26) from inscription from Priene (111, 117). Note also ἡ παρʼ ἐμοῦ διαθήκη (Ro. 11:27) with notion of authorship. With passive verbs the agent is sometimes expressed by παρά as in ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ θεοῦ (Jo. 1:6), τοῖς λελαλημένοις παρὰ Κυρίου (Lu. 1:45). Cf. Text. Rec. in Ac. 22:30 with κατηγορεῖται παρὰ τῶν Ἰουδαίων, where W. H. have ὑπό. Παρά occurs with the middle in Mt. 21:42, παρὰ Κυρίου ἐγένετο. In the later Greek vernacular παρά with the ablative helped supplant ὑπό along with ἀπό, and both παρά and ὑπό (and ἐκ) vanished “before the victorious ἀπό.”

6. With the Accusative. It is not found in John’s writings at all as it is also wanting in the other Catholic Epistles. The accusative is common in the local sense both with verbs of motion and of rest. The increase in the use of the accusative with verbs of rest explains in part the disuse of the locative.3 One naturally compares the encroachments of εἰς upon ἐν. We see the idiom in the papyri as in οἱ παρὰ σὲ θεοί, P. Par. 47 (b.c. 153). The use of παρά with the accusative with verbs of rest was common in Northwest Greek (Buck, Greek Dialects, p. 101). Thus in Mt. 4:18 we find περιπατῶν παρὰ τὴν θάλασσαν logically enough, but in 13:1 we meet ἐκάθητο παρὰ τὴν θάλασσαν, and note καθήμενοι παρὰ τὴν ὁδόν (Mt. 20:30), ἑστὼς παρὰ τὴν λίμνην (Lu. 5:1), ἐστὶν οἰκία παρὰ θάλασσαν (Ac. 10:6), διδάσκειν παρὰ θάλασσαν (Mk. 4:1), ἀνατεθραμμένος παρὰ τοὺς πόδας (Ac. 22:3). Cf. Ac. 4:35. So no difficulty arises from ἔριψαν παρὰ τοὺς πόδας (Mt. 15:30). There is no example in the N. T. of παρά in the sense of ‘beyond,’ like Homer, but one where the idea is ‘near to,’ ‘alongside of,’ as ἦλθεν παρὰ τὴν θάλασσαν (Mt. 15:29). But figuratively παρά does occur often in the sense of ‘beside the mark’ or ‘beyond.’ Once indeed we meet the notion of ‘minus,’ as in τεσσαράκοντα παρὰ μίαν (2 Cor. 11:24). Cf. παρὰ τάλαντόν σοι πέπρακα, B.U. 1079 (a.d. 41), where παρά means ‘except.’ The modern Greek vernacular keeps παρὰ τρίχα, ‘within a hair’s breadth’ (Thumb, Handb., p. 98). The notion of ‘beyond’ is common enough in classic writers and is most frequent in Hebrews in the N. T. It occurs with comparative forms like διαφορώτερον (Heb. 1:4), πλείονος (3:3), κρείττοσι (9:23; cf. 12:24), with implied comparison like ἠλάττωσας βραχύ τι (2:7), or with merely the positive like ἁμαρτωλοί (Lu. 13:2; cf. 13:4). Indeed no adjective or participle at all may appear, as in ὀφειλέται ἐγένοντο παρὰ πάντας (Lu. 13:4; cf. 13:2). The use of the positive with παρά is like the Aramaic (cf. Wellhausen, Einl., p. 28). Here the notion of ‘beyond’ or ‘above’ is simple enough. Cf. παρά after ἄλλος in 1 Cor. 3:11 and ἡμέραν in Ro. 14:5; Heb. 11:11. The older Greek was not without this natural use of παρά for comparison and the LXX is full of it. In the later Greek vernacular the ablative and ἤ both retreat before παρά and the accusative. In the modern Greek vernacular we find παρά and the accusative and even with the nominative after comparison (Thumb, Handb., p. 75). The notion of comparison may glide over into that of opposition very easily. Thus in Ro. 1:25, ἐλάτρευσαν τῇ κτίσει παρὰ τὸν κτίσαντα, where ‘rather than’ is the idea (cf. “instead of”). Cf. Ro. 4:18, παρʼ ἐλπίδα ἐπʼ ἐλπίδι, where both prepositions answer over to each other, ‘beyond,’ ‘upon.’ So in 2 Cor. 8:3 κατὰ δύναμιν and παρὰ δύναμιν are in sharp contrast. Cf. Ac. 23:3. In Gal. 1:8 f. παρʼ ὅ has the idea of ‘beyond’ and so ‘contrary to.’ Cf. Ro. 11:24; 12:3; 16:17. To exceed instructions is often to go contrary to them. In a case like παρὰ νόμον (Ac. 18:13), to go beyond is to go against. Cf. English trans-gression, παρά-πτωμα. Once more παρά with the accusative strangely enough may actually mean ‘because of,’ like propter. So in 1 Cor. 12:15 f. παρὰ τοῦτο. Cf. D in Lu. 5:7. The Attic writers used παρά thus, but it disappears in the later vernacular. The notion of cause grows out of the idea of nearness and the nature of the context. Farrar suggests the English colloquial: “It’s all along of his own neglect.”

 A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research (Logos Bible Software, 2006), 612–616.

Nothing to doubt about Greek words spoken by Jesus in John 17:5 as Metzger's A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, Second Edition a Companion Volume to the United Bible Societies’ Greek New Testament (4th Rev. Ed.) (London; New York: United Bible Societies, 1994) shows no textual variants for John 17:5 and Second edition Apparatus for The Greek New Testament: SBL Edition likewise does not have any Greek textual variants for John 17:5.

To me, יהוה (yhwh) and אֱלֹהִים (ʾělō·hîm) describe the same Holy Living Most High God. Grammatical spelling of יהוה and contextual usage at times match while at other times are different: (reads to me as One plural unique God)

Thus says יהוה Yahweh, the king of Israel, and its redeemer, יהוה Yahweh of hosts: “I am the first, and I am the last, and there is no אלהים god besides me. (Isaiah 44:6 LEB with two Hebrew lemmas) has two subjects for "I am ..." (unique יהוה unity) 

“For thus says יהוה Yahweh: ‘We have heard a sound of trembling, terror, and there is no peace. (Jeremiah 30:5 LEB)

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