A SCRIPTURE based discussion of the Trinity

[Deleted User]

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus We agree Holy יהוה God is Holy יהוה God (all we humans are not) => reason for my thought of יהוה Lord God giving authority to forgive sins against יהוה Lord God to one who is not יהוה Lord God being impossible & impractical (especially a human who inherited sin-stained spiritual nature from Adam).

The problem are false assumptions on your part ...

The HUMAN being - the MAN Jesus - did not inherit sin nor commit sin (actually, sin is not inherited in the first place, it is committed with an action by the one who sins)! Jesus did not need to be God in order to be without sin. Furthermore then, God did give Jesus authority to forgive sins.

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 17 Please provide two OR three credible witnesses for idea about ancient Jewish Messiah (Christ) NOT being יהוה Lord God.

@Bill_Coley July 19 We've been down this road before, at which at times a "credible" witness was for you seemingly only one who agreed with your point of view. 

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 20 CD Thread Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ? comments on page 14 include:

@Bill_Coley July 20 The example you cite from another of our exchanges demonstrates the truth of my claim that for you, a "credible" authority is one who agrees with your position.

Considering our disagreements, am curious about rationale for your false accusation about my commentary selection being the same as yours ?

Still disappointed you have not provided two or three verifiable factual witnesses to give your idea "the Dating of the Psalms" honest credibility. Thus far the two commentary quotes you provided on March 24 only confirmed some contemporary scholars having the same opinion about "the Dating of the Psalms" as yourself (lacking factual witnesses => fantasy so my factual examination finds nothing good for me to hold fast).

FWIW: after positive comments about The New Interpreter's Bible (Faithlife Forum discussions), was disappointed by contemporary scholarship expressing "While it is possible in some cases that these names indicate authorship (see above on the personal/historical method), it is more likely that they originated in the process of collection." while not providing any references for factual evidence/examination (also did not have any references in the above personal/historical method). Irony is front matter listing involvement of many scholars. My speculation for fantasy opinion is evolutionary theory application: e.g. Biblical "critical" scholarship disgarding historical Jewish tradition to assert many Psalms were composed very late (third to second century BCE).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 20 Jeremiah 23:5-6 and Jeremiah 33:14-6 texts say the "branch of righteousness" from David name includes יהוה (makes my point The Messiah is יהוה)

@Bill_Coley July 20 Neither of those passages says the one God will raise up will be God. Both say the one God will raise up will be a political and military leader... which is my point.

Truthfully, יהוה says the one יהוה will raise up will be יהוה to be King "יהוה Yahweh צדקנו Righteousness We", which is consistent with John 10:30

“Look, days are coming,” declares יהוה Yahweh, “when I will raise up for David a righteous branch, and he will reign as king, and he will achieve success, and he will do justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell in safety, and this is his name by which he will be called: ‘יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.’ (Jeremiah 23:5-6 LEB, Yahweh translates יהוה)

‘Look, days are coming,’ declares יהוה Yahweh, ‘and I will fulfill the good promise that I promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah. In those days and in that time I will make a branch of righteousness sprout for David, and he will execute justice and righteousness in the land. In those days Judah will be saved, and Jerusalem will dwell safely, and this is what they shall call it: “יהוה Yahweh is our righteousness.” ’ (Jeremiah 33:16 LEB)

Thus says יהוה Yahweh, the king of Israel, and its redeemer, יהוה Yahweh of hosts: “I am the first, and I am the last, and there is no god besides me. (Isaiah 44:6 LEB)

Who is the king of glory? יהוה Yahweh of hosts, He is the king of glory! Selah (Psalm 24:10 LEB)

For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. His dominion will grow continually, and to peace there will be no end on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and sustain it with justice and righteousness now and forever. The zeal of יהוה Yahweh of hosts will do this. (Isaiah 9:6-7 LEB) that is consistent with יהוה Jesus being the root (creator) and the descendant of David (Revelation 22:16)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 20 Human name analogy: if Mr Bill Coley & Mr Bill Coley's Father are in the same room and both had spoken. Who does "Mr Coley said ..." refer to ? Both Mr Bill Coley & Mr Bill Coley's Father share Coley family name so either one can be called Mr Coley.

@Bill_Coley July 20 Your example cites a relationship between two human beings. When Jesus calls God his and our "Father," he's referring to a relationship between a human being and a deity. Human beings typically limit the definition of "father" when applied to themselves to paternal parentage. 

What is the Name of My Father for Jesus ?

Jesus answered them, “I told you and you do not believe! The deeds that I do in the name of my Father, these testify about me. (John 10:25 LEB)

do you say about he whom the Father set apart and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? (John 10:36 LEB)

He trusts in God; let him deliver him now if he wants to, because he said, ‘I am the Son of God’!” (Matthew 27:43 LEB)

I will tell the decree; יהוה Yahweh said to me: “You are my son; today I have begotten you. (Psalm 2:7 LEB)

And behold, there was a voice from heaven saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” (Matthew 3:17 LEB)

While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to him!” (Matthew 17:5 LEB)

And a cloud came, overshadowing them, and a voice came from the cloud, “This is my beloved Son. Listen to him!” (Mark 9:7 LEB)

And a voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to him!” (Luke 9:35 LEB)

For we did not make known to you the power and coming of our יהוה Lord Jesus Christ by following ingeniously concocted myths, but by being eyewitnesses of that one’s majesty. For he received honor and glory from יהוה God the Father when a voice such as this was brought to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (2 Peter 1:16-17 LEB)

@Bill_Coley July 20 But when Jesus calls God his and our "Father," he's referring to spiritual intimacy, not biological parentage.

Unique about יהוה Jesus is יהוה Lord God being both his biological Father AND his spiritual Father God (who is our spiritual Father God as well)

@Bill_Coley July 20 Please address this question directly: When Jesus says God is OUR, as well as his, "Father," (Matthew 6.8; Matthew 10.20; John 20.17, et al) is he saying God is also our biological father? Specifically I ask you about Matthew 23.29, in which Jesus instructs us not to call anyone on earth our "father" since our "Father" is in heaven. Does he mean God is our biological father?

Thankful for יהוה Lord God breathing life into dust (Adam ~6,000 years ago) to create humankind and my spiritual Father now. Jesus is the unique biological son of יהוה (virgin birth for יהוה The Word to take on flesh: John 1:14-18). Since יהוה Jesus is now in Holy Heaven ruling on God's Throne (with יהוה Father, The Will), my modification of Matthew 6:8 is our יהוה who art in Heaven (our יהוה = Father & Jesus = One plural unique יהוה God)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 20 Your definition of "The Christ" leaves out יהוה Lord God => incomplete about who יהוה Jesus claimed to be: "I am the Son of יהוה God" (John 10:36)

@Bill_Coley July 20 My definition of "the Christ" does not identify Jesus as "יהוה Lord God" because the word "Christ" does not mean "יהוה Lord God;" it means "anointed one" or "chosen one."

Who spoke from the cloud in Luke 9:28-36 LEB => Now it happened that about eight days after these words, he took along Peter and John and James and went up on the mountain to pray. And as he was praying, the appearance of his face became different, and his clothing became white, gleaming like lightning. And behold, two men were talking with him, who were Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and were speaking about his departure which he was about to fulfill in Jerusalem. Now Peter and those with him were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men who were standing with him. And it happened that as they were going away from him, Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here. And let us make three shelters, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah,” not knowing what he was saying. And while he was saying these things, a cloud came and overshadowed them, and they were afraid as they entered into the cloud. And a voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to him!” And after the voice had occurred, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent and told no one in those days anything of what they had seen.

@Bill_Coley July 20 Jesus never claimed to be God. He claimed to be the Son of God - which I understand to be a role or office that conveys both purpose and intimacy - but he never claimed to be God.

Father & Son are One compound unity יהוה God. Jesus truthfully knew He was not God alone so would never claim to be God by Himself. Jesus said: "I am the Son of יהוה God" (not the son of Joseph). The Hebrew word with the most translations as God for יהוה is elohim (plural). Jesus knew His single voice was one of three plural voices in elohim God => Jesus would never claim to be all the plural voices of elohim God (simply not true).

Searching for Hebrew <Lemma = lbs/he/אֶחָד> shows compound unity in verses: (along with many verses showing one singular)

And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day. (Genesis 1:5 LEB)

Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall cling to his wife, and they shall be as one flesh. (Genesis 2:24 LEB)

And יהוה Yahweh God said, “Look—the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil. What if he stretches out his hand and takes also from the tree of life and eats, and lives forever?” (Genesis 3:22 LEB) that has plural pronoun us for יהוה

“Hear, Israel, יהוה Yahweh our God, יהוה Yahweh is unique. * (Deuteronomy 6:4 LEB) * Or “one”; or possibly “one Lord”

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 21 We agree Holy יהוה God is Holy יהוה God (all we humans are not) => reason for my thought of יהוה Lord God giving authority to forgive sins against יהוה Lord God to one who is not יהוה Lord God being impossible & impractical (especially a human who inherited sin-stained spiritual nature from Adam).

@Wolfgang July 21 The problem are false assumptions on your part ...

At least one of us has false assumptions in our faith belief ideas: honestly anticipate both of us having various faith belief ideas that could be transformed to Be Holy as God is Holy - Thankful to be living, learning, and growing in יהוה Lord God (wanting all my thoughts to Be Holy).

@Wolfgang July 21 The HUMAN being - the MAN Jesus - did not inherit sin nor commit sin (actually, sin is not inherited in the first place, it is committed with an action by the one who sins)! Jesus did not need to be God in order to be without sin. Furthermore then, God did give Jesus authority to forgive sins.

Every human descendant inherited a spiritual nature from their biological father: all descendants of Adam inherited a sin-stained selfish nature (a baby does not need to be taught to say: MINE). Unique human body of יהוה Jesus (Son of יהוה God) inherited Holy nature of יהוה

And they were bringing young children to him so that he could touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant, and said to them, “Let the young children come to me. Do not forbid them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly I say to you, whoever does not welcome the kingdom of God like a young child will never enter into it.” And after taking them into his arms, he blessed them, placing his hands on them. (Mark 10:13-16 LEB) has non-Biblical testimonies of some humans who have been in Heaven and came back to their human bodies on earth: Holy Heaven has a hall of innocents having many millions (includes aborted babies as well as miscarriages and those who died as young children before they reached the age of accountability).

What then? Do we have an advantage? Not at all. For we have already charged both Jews and Greeks are all under sin, just as it is written,

“There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned aside together; they have become worthless; There is no one who practices kindness; there is not even one. Their throat is an opened grave; they deceive with their tongues; the venom of asps is under their lips, whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and distress are in their paths, and they have not known the way of peace. The fear of God is not before their eyes.”

Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those under the law, in order that every mouth may be closed and the whole world may become accountable to God. For by the works of the law no person will be declared righteous before him, for through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified about by the law and the prophets—that is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God made publicly available as the mercy seat through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness, because of the passing over of previously committed sins, in the forbearance of God, for the demonstration of his righteousness in the present time, so that he should be just and the one who justifies the person by faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:9-26 LEB)

Also, human history simply argues against idea "Jesus did not need to be God in order to be without sin." (while agreeing with Romans 3:9-26)

To me, יהוה God gave יהוה Jesus the authority to forgive sins against יהוה

Keep Smiling 😊

Bill_Coley

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

We agree Holy יהוה God is Holy יהוה God (all we humans are not) => reason for my thought of יהוה Lord God giving authority to forgive sins against יהוה Lord God to one who is not יהוה Lord God being impossible & impractical (especially a human who inherited sin-stained spiritual nature from Adam).

I don't agree with your claim that it is "impossible" for God to authorize a human being to forgive sins. Aside from anti-definitional actions such as making a round peg fit perfectly in a square hole (by definition, impossible) or "making" people love (again, by definition, impossible) I believe God can do whatever God wants to do, including the authorizing of the human being designated by God as the Christ and the Son of God to forgive sins.

Holy יהוה God truth is consistent. Adding God's Holy Hebrew name יהוה into English translation simply shows Holy יהוה God truth: adding יהוה only for Lord & God in Biblical context, consistent with ancient Jewish verbal usage of Lord & God as shown by translation into Greek Septuagint (LXX).

In my view, adding יהוה to references to Jesus shows YOUR truth, but it doesn't show God's truth since the clear message of the New Testament is that Jesus is not God.

We disagree about validity of your interpretative process and your authoritative text expression. Another irony is your encouragement for others to identify their interpretative views as being their own while your preference is expressing your Scripture text interpretation as an appeal to an unnamed authority (implies your view of your text interpretation is correct, right in your eyes, while other views are wrong in your opinion).

My objection to your comments about my interpretive process is not about whether you believe it's "valid" or "authoritative;" it's about the accuracy of your characterization of said process. Agree or disagree with the results of my process as you see fit - I don't care - but stop making the false claim that my faith beliefs precede my engagement with the biblical text. My faith beliefs are a product, NOT a precursor, of my engagement with the biblical text.

Your other claim here makes no sense to me. OF COURSE I believe my interpretations of texts are correct. Why would I hold to interpretations that I thought were wrong? Do YOU believe YOUR interpretations of texts are correct? I bet you do... and you should! They're YOUR interpretations, so OF COURSE you believe they're correct. We ALL believe our interpretations are correct.

I don't have to agree with your interpretations to respect them. I welcome you to your views, and celebrate the role they have in your faith. I'm also sensible enough to know that I see through a glass dimly and I may well be wrong in some, many, or all of my views. But until I learn otherwise, I will believe that my views are correct... as you will believe that your views are correct.

The definite article (The) in Greek identifies The Noun being qualiified in 1 John 4:7 The God is Love & John 1:1c God was being The Word

English and Greek use of the definite article is different so readable English tends to drop out Greek definite identification. English has an indefinite article (a, an) while Greek does not. Lack of definite article for a noun (anarthrous) in Greek has three possibilities: qualitative (majority), indefinite, OR definite.

This bit of grammar doesn't address the content to which it purported to respond - that God and love are different kinds of things. God is an entity/being, while love is an action/commitment/devotion/etc. and hence cannot be employed in the same kind of comparison God and Jesus can be. [i.e. "Jesus is God. God is Jesus" equates two beings/entities, while "God is love. Love is God" does not.]

Prior to encounter with Jewish Rabbi Jesus, Jewish Peter daily recited The Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4-9, Deuteronomy 11:13-21, Numbers 15:37-41) twice, which has 18 יהוה (Lord spoken instead of God's Holy Hebrew Name) so 18 * 365.25 => 6,574.25 times on average per solar year.

Regardless of how many times per solar year on average Peter recited the Shema, it's clear from the biblical text that when Peter calls Jesus "Lord" he is NOT calling Jesus God.

Curious if you know of any Biblical word(s) in the Hebrew Bible OR Greek Septuagint (LXX) that were often repeated, which support your interpretative view of New Testament Scripture texts (where Lord cannot mean יהוה). Logos & Verbum Bible Software have Concordance Tool that can show counts for Surface Text in a Bible: e.g. Lexham Hebrew Bible

I have no idea. I only know what the biblical text says, and in this case, in my view, the text says clearly and consistently that Peter believes Jesus is NOT God. His sermons in Acts 2-4 leave no possible doubt on the matter, in my view.

Some Jewish Rabbi's commented ~900 years ago about Leviticus 24:12-16 Blasphemy: (includes the Lord for יהוה in commentary text)

With due respect, I found none of your lengthy excursus into the subject of blasphemy relevant to our discussion.

Saul had been zealous for יהוה Lord God by persecuting humans who believe Jesus is יהוה Lord God => Saul knew Holy Bright Light voice was יהוה Lord God, BUT Saul did not know the Name of the voice who asked Saul: "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"

Where in the text do you find reference to a "Holy Bright Light voice"? To my reading of it, the text refers to only one voice, the voice that identified as Jesus AFTER Saul asked "Who are you, lord?" On that basis, I repeat my contention that if, as you claim, Saul knew the voice was יהוה Lord God, he ALREADY KNEW the name of the one who was speaking to him - it was יהוה Lord God - and hence would not have had to ask. But he did ask! Which tells me Saul did not know who was speaking to him.

Considering intensity of human faith belief ideas with stubbornness against change, expect soul shaking/shattering shock inside Saul upon hearing Jesus speak being incredibly intense. Physical blindness allowed Saul time to process substantial faith belief change transformation, repent from sins (included murder & anger), and ask יהוה Lord God for forgiveness. Saul/Paul has a valid claim for being the foremost sinner => ....

None of this excursus changes the fact that had Saul meant "יהוה Lord God" when he asked who was speaking to him on the road to Damascus, then he ALREADY KNEW who was speaking to him and would not have needed to ask. The biblical text refers to one and only one voice that addressed Saul, a voice who self-identified as Jesus AFTER Saul asked him to.

Revisiting our replies shows your two questions have already been answered in my earlier replies. Jewish High Priest, Caiaphas, and Sanhedrin members could defend their Jewish Blasphemy verdict as they interpreted truthful Jewish deity expressions by Jewish Rabbi Jesus as cursing יהוה so believed Jesus should be put to death for Blasphemy. Appropriate to fulfill prophecies: John 11:45-57, Isaiah 52:13-53:12, Psalm 22:1-31

Humanly not know if any of the Jewish religious leaders who believed Blasphemy verdict was appropriate ever repented of sins and (re)turned to Loving יהוה Lord God and believing Jesus is יהוה Lord God.

Am I correct to conclude from this response that a) you believe the religious leaders DID have a "legal basis" for their demands for the execution of Jesus, and b) you believe that their legal basis was NOT justified?

[Deleted User]

Every human descendant inherited a spiritual nature from their biological father: all descendants of Adam inherited a sin-stained selfish nature (a baby does not need to be taught to say: MINE). Unique human body of יהוה Jesus (Son of יהוה God) inherited Holy nature of יהוה

Any Scripture support for this theological idea of "inherited spiritual nature from their biological father" ??

A baby IS TAUGHT everything it learns to do ... just note, "taught" doesn't necessarily mean instruction by words ... a child is NOT by nature selfish in a sinful way, nor is considering one's own things and taking care of "mine" (one's own) person a sin.

By the way, your mention of Jesus stating about little children that that theirs is the kingdom of heaven SHOWS PLAINLY that little children are NOT sinners by inherited sin, because as sinners they would not have part in the kingdom of God, would they?

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 21 The definite article (The) in Greek identifies The Noun being qualiified in 1 John 4:7 The God is Love & John 1:1c God was being The Word

My apologies for my mistake of 1 John 4:7 when numbering is 1 John 4:8 (qualitative phrase "The God is Love" is also in 1 John 4:16).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 21 English and Greek use of the definite article is different so readable English tends to drop out Greek definite identification. English has an indefinite article (a, an) while Greek does not. Lack of definite article for a noun (anarthrous) in Greek has three possibilities: qualitative (majority), indefinite, OR definite.

@Bill_Coley July 21 This bit of grammar doesn't address the content to which it purported to respond - that God and love are different kinds of things. God is an entity/being, while love is an action/commitment/devotion/etc. and hence cannot be employed in the same kind of comparison God and Jesus can be. [i.e. "Jesus is God. God is Jesus" equates two beings/entities, while "God is love. Love is God" does not.]

What is being qualitatively described depends on the different kinds of things.

In English, the verb "is" implies equality on both sides. Equivalent equality syntax in Koine Greek has The Definite Ariticle on both sides of the verb. For example, "Jesus is God. God is Jesus." is written in Koine Greek as "The Jesus is The God. The God is The Jesus." English equality "God is love. Love is God." is written in Koine Greek as "The God is The Love. The Love is The God." Unlike English, Koine Greek grammar also has qualitative syntax where The Definite Article identifes The Noun being qualified: e.g. 1 John 4:8 The God is Love & John 1:1c God was being The Word.

English "because God is Love" in 1 John 4:8 is a literal (formal equivalence) translation of "ὅτι ὁ θεὸς ἀγάπη ἐστίν" (because the God Love is), which hides Koine Greek qualitative syntax implication from English readers. Translation "because God's quality is Love" is a more dynamic (thoughtful equivalence) expression. The New Testament: An Expanded Translation by Kenneth S. Wuest has "because God as to His nature is love" in 1 John 4:8 and John 1:1c => And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity.

John 1:1c text syntax says spiritual quality (essence) of The Word (Jesus) was being God. Koine Greek qualitative syntax implies the fullness of God includes more than The Word, which is consistent with Matthew 28:19 "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" being a literal translation of "βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος" (Baptizing them in/to The Name of The Father and/also of The Son and/also of The Holy Spirit). My Matthew 28:19 textual interpretation is: "Baptizing them in/to The יהוה Name of יהוה The Father and/also of יהוה The Son and/also of יהוה The Holy Spirit" (shows One יהוה Name with three יהוה voices), consistent with Deuteronomy 6:4 שמע Hear/obey ישראל Israel, יהוה Yahweh אלהינו God (plural elohim & plural pronoun suffix) יהוה Yahweh אחד unique (one)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 21 Prior to encounter with Jewish Rabbi Jesus, Jewish Peter daily recited The Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4-9, Deuteronomy 11:13-21, Numbers 15:37-41) twice, which has 18 יהוה (Lord spoken instead of God's Holy Hebrew Name) so 18 * 365.25 => 6,574.25 times on average per solar year.

@Bill_Coley July 21 Regardless of how many times per solar year on average Peter recited the Shema, it's clear from the biblical text that when Peter calls Jesus "Lord" he is NOT calling Jesus God.

Literal translation of Lord assumes modern English reader is familiar with ancient Jewish cultural context where Lord was spoken instead of יהוה (many English Bibles have LORD translation of יהוה in the Old Testament, which is mentioned in some Bible introductions/prefaces).

Matthew 14:27 has five Koine Greek words spoken by Jewish Jesus: Θαρσεῖτε, ἐγώ εἰμι· μὴ φοβεῖσθε (Be Ye Couragous, I am: Not Be Ye Fearing), which has simple "I am" identification between Two Commands. Thankful for Jewish Peter courageously responding. To me, Matthew 14:22-33 text shows Jewish Peter believed Jewish Jesus is יהוה Lord, the Son of יהוה God:

And immediately he made the disciples get into the boat and go ahead of him to the other side, while he sent away the crowds. And after he sent away the crowds, he went up on the mountain by himself to pray. So when evening came, he was there alone. But the boat was already many stadia distant from the land, being beaten by the waves, because the wind was against it. And in the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. But the disciples, when they saw him walking on the sea, were terrified, saying, “It is a ghost!” and they cried out in fear. But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Have courage, I am he! Do not be afraid!” And Peter answered him and said, “יהוה Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water!” So he said, “Come!” And getting out of the boat, Peter walked on the water and came toward Jesus. But when he saw the strong wind, he was afraid. And beginning to sink, he cried out, saying, “יהוה Lord, save me!” And immediately Jesus extended his hand and caught him and said to him, “You of little faith! Why did you doubt?” And when they got into the boat, the wind abated. So those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of יהוה God!” (Matthew 14:22-33 LEB + יהוה from LXX translations as Lord & God)

Searching LEB for verses that have wind and obey finds three verses in these passages:

And as he got into the boat, his disciples followed him. And behold, a great storm arose on the sea, so that the boat was being inundated by the waves, but he himself was asleep. And they came and woke him, saying, “יהוה Lord, save us! We are perishing!” And he said to them, “Why are you fearful, you of little faith?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the sea and there was a great calm. And the men were astonished, saying, “What sort of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him?” (Matthew 8:23-27 LEB)

And on that day, when it was evening, he said to them, “Let us cross over to the other side.” And leaving the crowd, they took him along, as he was, in the boat. And other boats were with him. And a great storm of wind developed, and the waves were breaking into the boat, so that the boat was already being filled with water. And he was in the stern sleeping on the cushion, and they woke him up and said to him, “Teacher, is it not a concern to you that we are perishing?” And he woke up and rebuked the wind, and said to the sea, “Be quiet! Be silent!” And the wind abated and there was a great calm. And he said to them, “Why are you fearful? Do you not yet have faith?” And they were terribly frightened and began to say to one another, “Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?” (Mark 4:35-41 LEB), which has διδάσκαλος for Teacher (also used in 57 other verses by many New Testament authors).

Now it happened that on one of the days both he and his disciples got into a boat, and he said to them, “Let us cross over to the other side of the lake.” And they set sail, and as they were sailing, he fell asleep. And a storm of wind came down on the lake, and they were being swamped and were in danger. And they came and woke him up, saying, “Master, master! We are perishing!” So he got up and rebuked the wind and the billowing waves of water and they ceased, and it became calm. And he said to them, “Where is your faith?” But they were afraid and were astonished, saying to one another, “Who then is this, that he commands even the winds and the water and they obey him?” (Luke 8:22-25 LEB) that has ἐπιστάτης epistatēs spoken for Master, master (six verses in Luke have this word), which could be an interpretation of Lord.

My wonder of the winds and sea obeying יהוה Jesus is the amazing instant energy dissipation of atmospheric air and water waves to become calm.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 21 Curious if you know of any Biblical word(s) in the Hebrew Bible OR Greek Septuagint (LXX) that were often repeated, which support your interpretative view of New Testament Scripture texts (where Lord cannot mean יהוה). Logos & Verbum Bible Software have Concordance Tool that can show counts for Surface Text in a Bible: e.g. Lexham Hebrew Bible

@Bill_Coley July 21 I have no idea. I only know what the biblical text says, and in this case, in my view, the text says clearly and consistently that Peter believes Jesus is NOT God. His sermons in Acts 2-4 leave no possible doubt on the matter, in my view.

We agree 'the text says clearly and consistently that Peter believes Jesus is NOT God.', but Peter believes Jewish יהוה Jesus is יהוה Lord. Jewish context of God (plural elohim) is the whole Holy God (not a part/portion). Whole Holy יהוה God = יהוה The Father & יהוה The Son & Breath The Holy.

And it happened that on the next day, their rulers and elders and scribes came together in Jerusalem, and Annas the high priest, and Caiaphas and John and Alexander, and all those who were from the high priest’s family. And they made them stand in their midst and began to ask, “By what power or by what name did you do this?” Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders, if we are being examined today concerning a good deed done to a sick man—by what means this man was healed—let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man stands before you healthy! This one is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, that has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven that is given among people by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:5-12 LEB)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 21 Saul had been zealous for יהוה Lord God by persecuting humans who believe Jesus is יהוה Lord God => Saul knew Holy Bright Light voice was יהוה Lord God, BUT Saul did not know the Name of the voice who asked Saul: "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?"

@Bill_Coley July 21 Where in the text do you find reference to a "Holy Bright Light voice"?

"Light from Heaven" in Acts 9:3 would be Holy & Bright (like Mount of Transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-13, Mark 9:2-13, Luke 9:28-36).

@Bill_Coley July 21 To my reading of it, the text refers to only one voice, the voice that identified as Jesus AFTER Saul asked "Who are you, lord?" On that basis, I repeat my contention that if, as you claim, Saul knew the voice was יהוה Lord God, he ALREADY KNEW the name of the one who was speaking to him - it was יהוה Lord God - and hence would not have had to ask. But he did ask! Which tells me Saul did not know who was speaking to him.

We agree that Jewish Saul did not know The Name יהוה Lord included יהוה Jesus, who Jewish Saul had been zealously persecuting.

@Bill_Coley July 20 What does "legitimate" mean? Defensible. Justified. Appropriate.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 21Revisiting our replies shows your two questions have already been answered in my earlier replies. Jewish High Priest, Caiaphas, and Sanhedrin members could defend their Jewish Blasphemy verdict as they interpreted truthful Jewish deity expressions by Jewish Rabbi Jesus as cursing יהוה so believed Jesus should be put to death for Blasphemy. Appropriate to fulfill prophecies: John 11:45-57, Isaiah 52:13-53:12, Psalm 22:1-31

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 21 Humanly not know if any of the Jewish religious leaders who believed Blasphemy verdict was appropriate ever repented of sins and (re)turned to Loving יהוה Lord God and believing Jesus is יהוה Lord God.

@Bill_Coley July 21 Am I correct to conclude from this response that a) you believe the religious leaders DID have a "legal basis" for their demands for the execution of Jesus, and b) you believe that their legal basis was NOT justified?

Yes. Jewish religious leaders believed Jewish Blasphemy verdict was appropriate (right in their eyes), but they had Greatly sinned (not justified).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 21 Every human descendant inherited a spiritual nature from their biological father: all descendants of Adam inherited a sin-stained selfish nature (a baby does not need to be taught to say: MINE). Unique human body of יהוה Jesus (Son of יהוה God) inherited Holy nature of יהוה

@Wolfgang July 21 Any Scripture support for this theological idea of "inherited spiritual nature from their biological father" ??

Romans 3:9-26 for human descendents of Adam. John 3:16-21 for יהוה Jesus.

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

My wonder of the winds and sea obeying יהוה Jesus is the amazing instant energy dissipation of atmospheric air and water waves to become calm.

hmn .... waters were obeying "יהוה"Moses long before also ...perhaps Moses was God ?

@Wolfgang July 21 Any Scripture support for this theological idea of "inherited spiritual nature from their biological father" ??

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Romans 3:9-26 for human descendents of Adam. John 3:16-21 for יהוה Jesus.

Rom 3:29-26 says nothing about inherited sin. John 3:16-21 says nothing about it either ...

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 22 My wonder of the winds and sea obeying יהוה Jesus is the amazing instant energy dissipation of atmospheric air and water waves to become calm.

@Wolfgang July 22 hmn .... waters were obeying "יהוה"Moses long before also ...perhaps Moses was God ?

Song of Moses in Exodus 15:1-21 reminds me of יהוה Jesus at the right hand (glorious power) of יהוה Father

Then Moses and the Israelites sang this song to יהוה Yahweh, and they said, “Let me sing to יהוה Yahweh because he is highly exalted; the horse and its rider he hurled into the sea. יהוה Yah is my strength and song, and he has become my salvation; this is my God, and I will praise him—the God of my father—and I will exalt him. יהוה Yahweh is a man of war; יהוה Yahweh is his name. The chariots of Pharaoh and his army he cast into the sea, and his choice adjutants were sunk in the Red Sea. The deep waters covered them; they went down into the depths like a stone. יהוה Yahweh, your right hand is glorious in power; יהוה Yahweh, your right hand destroyed the enemy. And in the greatness of your majesty you overthrew those standing up to you; you released your fierce anger, and it consumed them like stubble. And by the breath of your nostrils waters were piled up; waves stood like a heap; deep waters in the middle of the sea congealed. The enemy said, ‘I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide plunder, my desire will be full of them, I will draw my sword, my hand will destroy them.’ You blew with your breath; the sea covered them; they dropped like lead in the mighty waters. Who is like you among the gods, יהוה Yahweh? Who is like you—glorious in holiness, awesome in praiseworthy actions, doing wonders? You stretched out your right hand; the earth swallowed them. In your loyal love you led the people whom you redeemed; in your strength you guided them to the abode of your holiness. Peoples heard; they trembled; anguish seized the inhabitants of Philistia. Then the chiefs of Edom were horrified; great distress seized the leaders of Moab; all of the inhabitants of Canaan melted away. Terror and dread fell on them; at the greatness of your arm they became silent like the stone, until your people passed by, יהוה Yahweh, until the people whom you bought passed by. You brought them and planted them on the mountain of your inheritance, a place you made for yourself to inhabit, יהוה Yahweh, a sanctuary, אדני Lord, that your hands established. יהוה Yahweh will reign as king forever and ever.” When the horses of Pharaoh came into the sea with his chariots and with his charioteers, יהוה Yahweh brought back upon them the waters of the sea, and the Israelites traveled on dry ground through the middle of the sea. And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took her tambourine in her hand, and all of the women went out after her with tambourines and with dances. And Miriam answered, “Sing to יהוה Yahweh because he is highly exalted; the horse and its rider he hurled into the sea.” (Exodus 15:1-21 LEB)

Thankful Moses was a servant of יהוה while One God: יהוה Father (The WIll) & יהוה Jesus (The Word) & יהוה Breath The Holy => created all things

Therefore, holy brothers, sharers in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession, who was faithful to the one who appointed him, as Moses also was in his household. For this one is considered worthy of greater glory than Moses, inasmuch as the one who builds it has greater honor than the house. For every house is built by someone, but the one who built all things is God. And Moses was faithful in all his house as a servant, for a testimony to the things that would be spoken, but Christ was faithful as a son over his house, whose house we are, if we hold fast to our confidence and the hope we can be proud of. Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of testing in the wilderness, where your fathers tested me by trial and saw my works for forty years. Therefore I was angry with this generation, and I said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, and they do not know my ways.’ As I swore in my anger, ‘They will never enter into my rest.’ ” Watch out, brothers, lest there be in some of you an evil, unbelieving heart, with the result that you fall away from the living God. But encourage one another day by day, as long as it is called “today,” so that none of you become hardened by the deception of sin. For we have become partners of Christ, if indeed we hold fast the beginning of our commitment steadfast until the end, while it is said, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.” For who, when they heard it, were disobedient? Surely it was not all who went out from Egypt through Moses? And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose dead bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did he swear they would not enter into his rest, except those who were disobedient? And so we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. (Hebrews 3:1-19 LEB)

Thankful for יהוה warning => lest there be in some of you an evil, unbelieving heart, with the result that you fall away from the living God.

@Wolfgang July 21 Any Scripture support for this theological idea of "inherited spiritual nature from their biological father" ??

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 22  Romans 3:9-26 for human descendents of Adam. John 3:16-21 for יהוה Jesus.

@Wolfgang July 22 Rom 3:29-26 says nothing about inherited sin. John 3:16-21 says nothing about it either ...

Effect of sin choices by humans (none righteous, no not one) has cause of inheriting sinful nature from Adam, which is truthfully consistent with 1 Corinthians 15:12-34 that includes => For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own group: Christ the first fruits, then those who are Christ’s at his coming, then the end, when he hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when he has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For it is necessary for him to reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (1 Corinthians 15:22-25 LEB)

All human descendants of Adam died spiritually when Adam died spiritually by choosing to disobey God (great sin for humankind). In all of human history only one human has ever been conceived Holy: the only begotten Son of יהוה God => יהוה The Word lovingly choose to dwell inside a human body for the purpose of offering that body as Holy substitute sacrifice for sin. Holy Love has one condition for redemption => believe Jesus is יהוה Lord so freely repenting from sin & choosing Jesus as יהוה Lord results in doing Holy God's righteous will.

While יהוה Jesus is The eternal King Messiah for Jews & Gentiles, the new covenant did not abolish God's covenant with Abraham (many Old Testament prophecies about the Jews remain to be fulfilled in God's perfect time). Every human simply chooses want to Love the most: self (inherited sin nature has numerous ways of loving "self" first, includes pridefully being right in one's own eyes) OR repent from sin with ongoing choice to יהוה Lord God first with everything human has, as written in Deuteronomy 6:4 שמע Hear/obey ישראל Israel, יהוה Yahweh אלהינו God (plural elohim & plural pronoun suffix) יהוה Yahweh אחד unique (one) And you shall love יהוה Yahweh your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your might. And these words that I am commanding you today shall be on your heart. And you shall recite them to your children, and you shall talk about them at the time of your living in your house and at the time of your going on the road and at the time of your lying down and at the time of your rising up. And you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as an emblem between your eyes. And you shall write them on the doorframe of your house and on your gates. (Deuteronomy 6:5-9 LEB)

“And it will happen that if you listen carefully to my commandments that I am commanding you today, to love יהוה Yahweh your God, and to serve him with all of your heart and with all of your soul, then ‘I will send the rain for your land in its season, early rain and later rain, and you will gather your grain and your wine and your olive oil. And I will give vegetation in your field for your livestock, and you will eat your fill.’ Take care so that your heart is not easily deceived, and you turn away, and you serve other gods, and you bow down to them. And then the anger of יהוה Yahweh will be kindled against you, and he will shut up the heavens, and there shall not be rain, and so the ground will not give its produce, and you will perish quickly from the good land that יהוה Yahweh is giving to you. “And you shall put these, my words, on your heart and on your inner self, and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand and let them be as an emblem between your eyes. And you shall teach them to your children by talking about them when you sit in your house and when you travel on the road and when you lie down and when you get up. And you shall write them on the doorframes of your house and on your gates, so that they may multiply your days and the days of your children on the land that יהוה Yahweh swore to your ancestors to give it to them as long as heaven endures over the earth. (Deuteronomy 11:13-21 LEB)

יהוה Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the Israelites, and tell them to make for themselves tassels on the hems of their garments throughout their generations and to put a blue cord on the tassel of the hem. You will have a tassel for you to look at and remember all the commands of יהוה Yahweh and do them, and not follow after the unfaithfulness of your own heart and eyes, so that you will remember and do all my commandments, and you will be holy for your God. I am יהוה Yahweh your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God; I am יהוה Yahweh your God.” (Numbers 15:37-41 LEB)

Biblical blue dye source was a sea creature who was put to death => https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/530127/jewish/Tekhelet-The-Mystery-of-the-Long-Lost-Biblical-Blue-Thread.htm & => https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/the-blue-of-the-ocean-the-sky-and-the-tzitzit/

To me, "Take care so that your heart is not easily deceived, and you turn away," warning reminds me to be guard my heart while studying Scripture text (have no desire to become like Jewish religious leaders & lawyers who turned away from God somewhere during their studies so their repetition of God's Words became vain & worthless due to their sin choices, while outwardly appearing righteous).

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus your many sweet talk says essentially nothing concerning topics at hand or questions you were asked. Lots of smoke any mirrors and sweet looking but cobra poisoned inferences of anyone showing you in plain sight the errors of your dogmas.

Thankful for יהוה warning => lest there be in some of you an evil, unbelieving heart, with the result that you fall away from the living God.

See above ... who is the target of this spew of poison slimy comment?

[Deleted User]

Bill_Coley

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

What is being qualitatively described depends on the different kinds of things.

I meant this distinction to be FAR simpler than your excurses into grammar have made it.

• Jesus is God.......God is Jesus -- Those two statements compare entities. We disagree as to their accuracy, but the items in them can be reversed and still create a comparable assertion, which is NOT true about...
• God is love.......Love is God. -- We can't reverse those two items and still have a comparable assertion.

It's akin to the difference between saying "A cat is an animal" and "The animal is a cat" [two comparable assertions] and saying "The cat is furry" and "Fur is a cat." [assertions that aren't comparable]

Matthew 14:27 has five Koine Greek words spoken by Jewish Jesus: Θαρσεῖτε, ἐγώ εἰμι· μὴ φοβεῖσθε (Be Ye Couragous, I am: Not Be Ye Fearing), which has simple "I am" identification between Two Commands. Thankful for Jewish Peter courageously responding. To me, Matthew 14:22-33 text shows Jewish Peter believed Jewish Jesus is יהוה Lord, the Son of יהוה God:

I welcome you to your view. To my reading of the Matthew 14 text, Peter and those in the boat declare Jesus to be "the Son of God," not God.

And the men were astonished, saying, “What sort of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him?” (Matthew 8:23-27 LEB)

I think it's noteworthy that the disciples don't know "what sort of man" Jesus is. Clearly, at this point in their relationship with him, they have not decided he is God. Instead, they're asking what kind of "man" (i.e. human being) could be able to do what they've seen him do.

We agree 'the text says clearly and consistently that Peter believes Jesus is NOT God.', but Peter believes Jewish יהוה Jesus is יהוה Lord. Jewish context of God (plural elohim) is the whole Holy God (not a part/portion). Whole Holy יהוה God = יהוה The Father & יהוה The Son & Breath The Holy.

That's not what the text says.

The Acts 4.5-12 text that you cite makes my point: Jesus is "the Nazarene... whom God raised from the dead." The distinction between God and Jesus (the one God raised) is abundantly clear.

"Light from Heaven" in Acts 9:3 would be Holy & Bright (like Mount of Transfiguration in Matthew 17:1-13, Mark 9:2-13, Luke 9:28-36).

From your previous post, perhaps mistakenly I inferred that you believed the bright light had its own voice, distinct from Jesus'. To my reading of the text, if the light has a voice - and it's not clear to me that it does - then the voice is Jesus' and not a voice other than his.

We agree that Jewish Saul did not know The Name יהוה Lord included יהוה Jesus, who Jewish Saul had been zealously persecuting.

I see no indication in the text that Saul believed the voice was God's... or anyone else's! Had he believed the voice was God's, he would have had no reason to ask the voice to self-identify.

Yes. Jewish religious leaders believed Jewish Blasphemy verdict was appropriate (right in their eyes), but they had Greatly sinned (not justified).

So FINALLY, after God only knows how many times I've raised the subject throughout our many exchanges, you acknowledge that the religious leaders were not always right in their legal accusations. They might have had a "legal basis" for their charges, but their charges were not always correct. That's been my point to you forever in our exchanges: That the religious leaders CLAIMED Jesus thought he was God does NOT necessarily mean Jesus actually thought he was God. The religious leaders, as you now finally acknowledge, were wrong, at least on occasion. We disagree as to whether they were wrong on THIS occasion, of course, but my point to you has always been that religious leader accusations didn't PROVE anything about Jesus.

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Wolfgang July 23 @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus your many sweet talk says essentially nothing concerning topics at hand or questions you were asked. Lots of smoke any mirrors and sweet looking but cobra poisoned inferences of anyone showing you in plain sight the errors of your dogmas.

Notably lacking in A SCRIPTURE based discussion is any Scripture in your reply => simpy lacks credibility for showing any error(s) to me.

“For there is no good tree that produces bad fruit, nor on the other hand a bad tree that produces good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thorn plants, nor are grapes harvested from thorn bushes. The good person out of the good treasury of his heart brings forth good, and the evil person out of his evil treasury brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. “And why do you call me ‘יהוה Lord, יהוה Lord,’ and do not do what I tell you? (Luke 6:43-46 LEB)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 23 Thankful for יהוה warning => lest there be in some of you an evil, unbelieving heart, with the result that you fall away from the living God.

@Wolfgang July 23 See above ... who is the target of this spew of poison slimy comment?

Your words are your own => shows your belief about יהוה inspired warning in Hebrews 3:12

Thankful for me knowing Hebrews 3:12 warning 33 years ago, but my choices for self-inflicted addiction had me experience falling away from the Living יהוה God for 20 years (aspects of my life looked outwardly righteous during that time while inside my heart was my lustful desire that was more important to me than Holy יהוה God). Thankful for the Living יהוה God arranging circumstances for me to face my inside sinfulness 12 years ago (human consequences had many months of unemployment). Have learned to Thank Holy יהוה God for everything, which includes my hurts and my sin choices. Thankful for Holy יהוה God helping me share God's Love ❤️ by telling His story of hurt and holy healing inside me. Now my desire is to Be Holy as יהוה God is Holy - Thankful to be living, learning, and growing in יהוה Lord God (now want all my thoughts to Be Holy). Thankful for יהוה warning => lest there be in some of you an evil, unbelieving heart, with the result that you fall away from the living God. (Hebrews 3:12 LEB)

Thankful for the living יהוה God helping me write יהוה God's Truth in Love ❤️ using kind words. Thankful for יהוה inspiration => Thanksgiving

Therefore become imitators of God, as beloved children, and live in love, just as also Christ loved us, and gave himself for us an offering and sacrifice to God for a fragrant smell. But sexual immorality, and all uncleanness, or greediness, must not even be named among you (as is fitting for saints), and obscenity, and foolish talk, or coarse jesting (which are not proper), but rather thanksgiving. For this you know for certain, that every sexually immoral person, or unclean person, or greedy person (who is an idolater), does not have an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming on the sons of disobedience. (Ephesians 5:1-6 LEB) that is consistent with warning in Hebrews 3:12

Rejoice in the Lord always; again I say, rejoice. Let your gentleness be made known to all people. The Lord is near. Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God that surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus. Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are honorable, whatever things are right, whatever things are pure, whatever things are pleasing, whatever things are commendable, if there is any excellence of character and if anything praiseworthy, think about these things. And the things which you have learned and received and heard about and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you. (Philippians 4:4-9 LEB)

Therefore, as the chosen of God, holy and dearly loved, put on affection, compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, patience, putting up with one another and forgiving one another. If anyone should have a complaint against anyone, just as also the יהוה Lord forgave you, thus also you do the same. And to all these things add love, which is the bond of perfection. And the peace of Christ must rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body, and be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another with all wisdom, with psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with thankfulness in your hearts to God, and everything whatever you do in word or in deed, giving thanks for all things in the name of the יהוה Lord Jesus to יהוה God the Father through him. (Colossians 3:12-17 LEB)

Be devoted to prayer, keeping alert in it with thanksgiving, praying at the same time for us also, that God may open for us a door of the message, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which also I am a prisoner, so that I may reveal it, as it is necessary for me to speak. Live with wisdom toward those outside, making the most of the time. Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how it is necessary for you to answer each one. (Colossians 4:2-6 LEB)

Now we ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and rule over you in the יהוה Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them beyond all measure in love, because of their work. Be at peace among yourselves. And we urge you, brothers, admonish the disorderly, console the discouraged, help the sick, be patient toward all people. See to it that no one pays back evil for evil to anyone, but always pursue good toward one another and toward all people. Rejoice always, pray constantly, give thanks in everything; for this is the will of יהוה God for you in Christ Jesus. Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but examine all things; hold fast to what is good. Abstain from every form of evil. Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your spirit and soul and body be kept complete, blameless at the coming of our יהוה Lord Jesus Christ. The one who calls you is faithful, who also will do this. Brothers, pray for us. (1 Thessalonians 5:12-25 LEB)

Therefore, I urge first of all that petitions, prayers, requests, and thanksgiving be made on behalf of all people, on behalf of kings and all those who are in authority, in order that we may live a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and human beings, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time, for which I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am speaking the truth, I am not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger and dispute. (1 Timothy 2:1-8 LEB)

Thankful can join יהוה Breath The Holy in 🙏praying with Thanksgiving that includes many faces flashing through my mind (lots of people in variety of places), specifically includes all CD posters and readers.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 22 What is being qualitatively described depends on the different kinds of things.

@Bill_Coley July 23 I meant this distinction to be FAR simpler than your excurses into grammar have made it.

Koine Greek grammar syntax (structure) around verb "to be" is simply different than English grammatical syntax (structure).

@Bill_Coley July 23 * Jesus is God.......God is Jesus -- Those two statements compare entities. We disagree as to their accuracy, but the items in them can be reversed and still create a comparable assertion, which is NOT true about...

English grammar syntax is asserting interchangeable equality between two entities. Equality syntax in Koine Greek has The Definite article for both nouns: "Jesus is God" => "The Jesus is The God" ..... "God is Jesus" => "The God is The Jesus" (none of these four "statements" is in Scripture text as One Holy יהוה God = יהוה Father & יהוה Jesus & יהוה Breath The Holy). In contrast, Koine Greek grammatical structure in John 1:1c shows quality of The Word was being God. My John 1:1c interpretation of "θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος" (God was The Word) => quality of יהוה The Word was being יהוה God.

@Bill_Coley July 23 * God is love.......Love is God. -- We can't reverse those two items and still have a comparable assertion.

English grammar syntax is asserting equality between two entities. Equivalent grammatical structure in Koine Greek for "God is love" = "The God is The Love". Koine Greek equality equivalent for "Love is God" is "The Love is The God". Apostle John in 1 John 4:8 and 1 John 4:16 wrote "The God is Love" so Koine Greek grammatical structure shows Love being a quality of The God.

@Bill_Coley July 23 It's akin to the difference between saying "A cat is an animal" and "The animal is a cat" [two comparable assertions] and saying "The cat is furry" and "Fur is a cat." [assertions that aren't comparable]

Koine Greek does not have indefinite article so akin difference examples are not applicable to Koine Greek grammar syntax. When Koine Greek has two nouns without articles (anarthrous) connected by verb "to be", context determines if both nouns are definite OR indefinite.

Matthew 13:39 "συντέλεια αἰῶνός ἐστιν" (completion age is) => "is the end of the age" is the definite example (the first one found in my search)

Matthew 21:33 Ἄνθρωπος ἦν οἰκοδεσπότης" (man was housemaster) => "There was a man—a master of a house" is an indefinite example

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 22 Matthew 14:27 has five Koine Greek words spoken by Jewish Jesus: Θαρσεῖτε, ἐγώ εἰμι· μὴ φοβεῖσθε (Be Ye Couragous, I am: Not Be Ye Fearing), which has simple "I am" identification between Two Commands. Thankful for Jewish Peter courageously responding. To me, Matthew 14:22-33 text shows Jewish Peter believed Jewish Jesus is יהוה Lord, the Son of יהוה God:

@Bill_Coley July 23 I welcome you to your view. To my reading of the Matthew 14 text, Peter and those in the boat declare Jesus to be "the Son of God," not God.

The Son of יהוה God truthfully describes יהוה Father being both biological (Holy virgin birth) & spiritual (יהוה God) for יהוה Jesus. Caveat is יהוה The Word portion of One Holy יהוה God (יהוה Jesus) experienced יהוה God's Glory at יהוה Father's side (John 17:5) before One Holy יהוה God (יהוה Father & יהוה The Word & יהוה Breath The Holy) created the world.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 22 We agree 'the text says clearly and consistently that Peter believes Jesus is NOT God.', but Peter believes Jewish יהוה Jesus is יהוה Lord. Jewish context of God (plural elohim) is the whole Holy God (not a part/portion). Whole Holy יהוה God = יהוה The Father & יהוה The Son & יהוה Breath The Holy.

@Bill_Coley July 23 That's not what the text says.

@Bill_Coley July 23 The Acts 4.5-12 text that you cite makes my point: Jesus is "the Nazarene... whom God raised from the dead." The distinction between God and Jesus (the one God raised) is abundantly clear.

While "distinction" expresses your faith belief interpretation, Could the Son of יהוה God possibly be one voice in One Holy יהוה God (plural elohim) ?

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 22 Yes. Jewish religious leaders believed Jewish Blasphemy verdict was appropriate (right in their eyes), but they had Greatly sinned (not justified).

@Bill_Coley July 23 So FINALLY, after God only knows how many times I've raised the subject throughout our many exchanges, you acknowledge that the religious leaders were not always right in their legal accusations. They might have had a "legal basis" for their charges, but their charges were not always correct. That's been my point to you forever in our exchanges: That the religious leaders CLAIMED Jesus thought he was God does NOT necessarily mean Jesus actually thought he was God. The religious leaders, as you now finally acknowledge, were wrong, at least on occasion. We disagree as to whether they were wrong on THIS occasion, of course, but my point to you has always been that religious leader accusations didn't PROVE anything about Jesus.

Matthew 26:57-68 text disagrees with idea 'That the religious leaders CLAIMED Jesus thought he was God ', which is NOT what Caiaphas asked Jesus and NOT what יהוה Jesus replied => only claimed to be part of Holy יהוה God. Jewish יהוה Jesus never claimed to be the whole Holy יהוה God.

Now those who had arrested Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders had gathered.

But Peter was following him from a distance, as far as the courtyard of the high priest. And he went inside and was sitting with the officers to see the outcome.

Now the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false testimony against Jesus in order that they could put him to death. And they did not find it, although many false witnesses came forward. And finally two came forward and said, “This man said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it within three days.’ ”

And the high priest stood up and said to him, “Do you reply nothing? What are these people testifying against you?”

But Jesus was silent.

And the high priest said to him, “I put you under oath by the living God, that you tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!”

Jesus said to him, “You have said it. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Then the high priest tore his robes, saying, “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have just now heard the blasphemy! What do you think?”

And they answered and said, “He deserves death!”

Then they spat in his face and struck him with their fists, and they slapped him, saying, “Prophesy for us, you Christ! Who is it who hit you?” (Matthew 26:57-68 LEB)

Jewish High Priest Caiaphas understood Jewish deity expressions by Jewish Rabbi Jesus and believed identification words (part of Holy יהוה God) cursed the whole Holy יהוה God => Jewish Blasphemy verdict (so Jewish Rabbi Jesus deserved death) was correct per faith belief ideas of Jewish High Priest Caiaphas (right in his eyes after many years of studying Scripture along with Jewish oral law & tradition, albeit motive for killing יהוה Jesus was sin in the eyes of Holy יהוה God). Jewish יהוה Jesus declared Jewish High Priest Caiaphas (with Jewish chief priests and elders of Jewish people in Matthew 27:1-2) has greater sin in John 19:11. Jewish religious leaders had delivered Jewish Rabbi Jesus to Roman governor Pontius Pilate for execution along with stirring up Jewish crowd (in Jerusalem for the Jewish remembrance of Passover) to demand that the Jewish man Jesus be crucified by Roman ruler. Also Jewish religious leaders declared Pontius Pilate is no friend of Caeser's if Jesus was set free (John 19:12)

FWIW: Logos search for <Lemma = lbs/he/אֱלֹהִים> INTERSECTS <Person God> in LXX Swete shows Jewish translation of Hebrew plural elohim (2,330 in Hebrew Bible) into Greek as θεός Theos, God, singular 2,008 times & plural 9 times (personally disagree with <Person God> tagging for several of these verses), along with κύριος kurios, Lord, singular 100 times. To me, the Jewish translation of Hebrew/Aramaic into Greek a couple centuries before Jewish יהוה Jesus shows ancient Jewish faith belief interpretation of Hebrew plural God as singular.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 20 Human name analogy: if Mr Bill Coley & Mr Bill Coley's Father are in the same room and both had spoken. Who does "Mr Coley said ..." refer to ? Both Mr Bill Coley & Mr Bill Coley's Father share Coley family name so either one can be called Mr Coley.

@Bill_Coley July 20 Your example cites a relationship between two human beings. When Jesus calls God his and our "Father," he's referring to a relationship between a human being and a deity. Human beings typically limit the definition of "father" when applied to themselves to paternal parentage. 

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 21 What is the Name of My Father for Jesus ?

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 21  Jesus answered them, “I told you and you do not believe! The deeds that I do in the name of my Father, these testify about me. (John 10:25 LEB)

Repeating question: What is the Name of My Father for Jesus ?

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

Notably lacking in A SCRIPTURE based discussion is any Scripture in your reply => simpy lacks credibility for showing any error(s) to me.

@Bill_Coley shows you scripture after scripture ... and you don't care a lousy bit about what he shows you ... instead you dump another load of your same sweet talk of your "faith belief & Jewish ancient understanding" sweet talk mixture interpretation.

Throwing around verses and "ah so humble looking talk" do not guarantee truth ... or do you think Jesus was wrong with his "whited sepulchers" no verses straight talk ??

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 23 Notably lacking in A SCRIPTURE based discussion is any Scripture in your reply => simpy lacks credibility for showing any error(s) to me.

@Wolfgang July 24 @Bill_Coley shows you scripture after scripture ... and you don't care a lousy bit about what he shows you ... instead you dump another load of your same sweet talk of your "faith belief & Jewish ancient understanding" sweet talk mixture interpretation.

Thankful for scripture interpretation discussions with @Bill_Coley while remembering a @Wolfgang who also discussed scripture interpretations.

@Wolfgang July 24 Throwing around verses and "ah so humble looking talk" do not guarantee truth ...

Please pray to the living יהוה Lord God followed by examining scripture texts and my words. If my interpretation ideas disagree with your scripture interpretation, please explain using scripture text, which allows me to pray to the living יהוה Lord God followed by examining scripture texts and your words. Within me is an ongoing spiritual war between my old selfish sin-stained nature (with thoughts placed into me many times every day by our spiritual adversary) and יהוה Breath The Holy => many times every day has me praying 🙏 to the living יהוה Lord God as my desire is to Be Holy as יהוה God is Holy. My apologies for my CD posts sometimes having my mistake(s) in typing word(s)/number(s), which proves me being a human (who still is living, learning, and growing in יהוה Holiness). A limitation of my humanity is being able to only change faith belief ideas inside me. Holy יהוה God truth is consistent => no fear in testing & examining so can hold onto what is good for slow Godly growth in me.

@Wolfgang July 24 ... or do you think Jesus was wrong with his "whited sepulchers" no verses straight talk ??

Searching all Bibles in my Logos Library for {Milestone <mt23.27>} found "whited sepulchres" in American Bible Union, American Standard Vesion (ASV), 1873 Authorized Version (AV), Darby Bible, Douay-Rheims Bible (DRA), The Emphasized Bible, English Revised Version (ERV), J.G.Palfrey's Common Version, King James Version (KJV), Mr. Whitson's Primitive New Testament, Murdock's English Translation of Syriac Peshitto, Samuel Davidson's NT, Sharpe Bible Revision of Authorized English Version, The Syriac New Testament: Translated into English from the Syriac Peshitto, Thomson's New Covenant Translation, Weymouth's idomatic Translation - Modern Speech, Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Thankful for all words of יהוה Jesus (The Word) being truthfully consistent with/in Holy יהוה God 😍

My initial search of all Bibles in my Logos library for "whited sepulchers" found nothing. Searching for white WITHIN 3 WORDS tomb found Matthew 23:27 in seven resources.

Wo be to you, Scribes and Pharises, hypocrites: for ye are like unto whited tombes, which appeare beautiful outwarde, but are within ful of dead mẽs bones, and all filthines. So are ye also: for outwarde ye apppeare righteous unto men, but within ye are ful of hypocrisie and iniquitie. (Matthew 23:27-28 Geneva Bible)

“Great sorrow awaits you religious scholars and Pharisees—frauds and imposters! You are nothing more than tombs painted with fresh coats of white paint—tombs that look shining and beautiful on the outside, but within are found decaying corpses full of nothing but corruption. Outwardly you masquerade as righteous people, but inside your hearts you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness. “Great sorrow awaits you religious scholars and Pharisees—frauds and imposters! You build memorials for the prophets your ancestors killed and decorate the monuments of the godly people your ancestors murdered. Then you boast, ‘If we had lived back then, we would never have permitted them to kill the prophets.’ But your words and deeds testify that you are just like them and prove that you are indeed the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Go ahead and finish what your ancestors started! You are nothing but snakes in the grass, the offspring of poisonous vipers! How will you escape the judgment of hell if you refuse to turn in repentance? “For this reason I will send you more prophets and wise men and teachers of truth. Some you will crucify, and some you will beat mercilessly with whips in your meeting houses, abusing and persecuting them from city to city. As your penalty, you will be held responsible for the righteous blood spilled and the murders of every godly person throughout your history—from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Jehoiada, whom you killed as he stood in the temple between the brazen altar and the Holy Place. I tell you the truth: the judgment for all these things will fall upon this generation!” “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem—you are the city that murders your prophets! You are the city that stones the very messengers who were sent to deliver you! So many times I have longed to gather a wayward people, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings—but you were too stubborn to let me. And now it is too late, since your city will be left in ruins. For you will not see me again until you are able to say, ‘We welcome the one who comes to us in the name of the יהוה Lord.’ ” * (Matthew 23:27-39 The Passion Translation, New Testament) * See Ps. 118:26

This is the day יהוה Yahweh has worked; let us rejoice and be glad in him. O יהוה Yahweh, please save; O יהוה Yahweh, please grant success. Blessed is he who comes in the name of יהוה Yahweh. We bless you from the house of יהוה Yahweh. יהוה Yahweh is God, and he has given us light. Bind the festal sacrifice with cords to the horns of the altar. You are my God, and I will give thanks to you. You are my God; I will exalt you. Give thanks to יהוה Yahweh for he is good, for his loyal love is forever. (Psalm 118:24-29 LEB) that has light from יהוה Yahweh God

Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world! The one who follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” So the Pharisees said to him, “You testify concerning yourself! Your testimony is not true.” Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I testify concerning myself, my testimony is true, because I know where I have come from and where I am going. But you do not know where I have come from or where I am going. You judge according to externals; I do not judge anyone. But even if I judge, my judgment is true, because I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent me. And even in your law it is written that the testimony of two men is true. I am the one who testifies concerning myself, and the Father who sent me testifies concerning me.” So they were saying to him, “Where is your father?” Jesus replied, “You know neither me nor my Father! If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.” He spoke these words by the treasury while teaching in the temple courts, and no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come. (John 8:12-20 LEB)

Thankful for reading "Climbing Into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven" by Michele Pulford, which described several tormenting places in hell (more gruesome details than in the Bible: not know if place in hell for hypocritical Jewish religious leaders was described), truthfully consistent with יהוה Jesus warning: How will you escape the judgment of hell if you refuse to turn in repentance?

Keep Smiling 😊

Bill_Coley

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

Koine Greek grammar syntax (structure) around verb "to be" is simply different than English grammatical syntax (structure).

You and I aren't in the same place when it comes to our knowledge of, facility with, or reliance upon the Bible in its original languages. Hence, I'm not going to respond to your latest excursus into Greek grammar. In my view, to be blunt, the subject of whether "God is love" is of the same basic original language construction as "Jesus is God" hasn't merited the attention I've given it to-date, and certainly doesn't deserve more of my time now.

The Son of יהוה God truthfully describes יהוה Father being both biological (Holy virgin birth) & spiritual (יהוה God) for יהוה Jesus. Caveat is יהוה The Word portion of One Holy יהוה God (יהוה Jesus) experienced יהוה God's Glory at יהוה Father's side (John 17:5) before One Holy יהוה God (יהוה Father & יהוה The Word & יהוה Breath The Holy) created the world.

This paragraph contains several assertions of your personal theology to which, of course, you have every right, but with which I continue to take issue:

• God was Jesus' biological father
• Jesus is the "Word" described in the prologue of John's Gospel
• The "Word" was a "portion" of "One Holy יהוה God"

We have asserted and defended our views at great length and to no agreements in our many exchanges. I see no reason to continue the debate.

While "distinction" expresses your faith belief interpretation, Could the Son of יהוה God possibly be one voice in One Holy יהוה God (plural elohim) ?

"Distinction" expresses my good faith interpretation of the Acts 4 text in which Peter says God raised Jesus from the dead, an interpretation that relies on the text as its first source. It's worthy of note that you cite no part of the Acts 4 text to support your "could the Son of יהוה God possibly be..." speculation. As a result, I think it's clear which of our respective interpretations of the text is more an expression of a "faith belief" rather than the content of the text.

Matthew 26:57-68 text disagrees with idea 'That the religious leaders CLAIMED Jesus thought he was God ', which is NOT what Caiaphas asked Jesus and NOT what יהוה Jesus replied => only claimed to be part of Holy יהוה God. Jewish יהוה Jesus never claimed to be the whole Holy יהוה God.

Jesus did not claim to be "part of Holy יהוה God;" he claimed to be "the Son of God." But since that's your preferred description of the scene, I'll adjust my assertion accordingly: That religious leaders CLAIMED Jesus thought he was part of Holy יהוה God does NOT mean Jesus actually thought himself to be part of Holy יהוה God.

Jewish High Priest Caiaphas understood Jewish deity expressions by Jewish Rabbi Jesus and believed identification words (part of Holy יהוה God) cursed the whole Holy יהוה God => Jewish Blasphemy verdict (so Jewish Rabbi Jesus deserved death) was correct per faith belief ideas of Jewish High Priest Caiaphas (right in his eyes after many years of studying Scripture along with Jewish oral law & tradition, albeit motive for killing יהוה Jesus was sin in the eyes of Holy יהוה God).

But as you have finally acknowledged, the Jewish leaders were not always correct. This instance, I contend, is an example of the mistakes they made.

Repeating question: What is the Name of My Father for Jesus ?

What this question means or seeks is not obvious to me.

For starters, Jesus called God "God," "Father," "the LORD your God," and, from the cross, "Eli" as found in Psalm 22.

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 23 Koine Greek grammar syntax (structure) around verb "to be" is simply different than English grammatical syntax (structure).

@Bill_Coley July 24 You and I aren't in the same place when it comes to our knowledge of, facility with, or reliance upon the Bible in its original languages. Hence, I'm not going to respond to your latest excursus into Greek grammar. In my view, to be blunt, the subject of whether "God is love" is of the same basic original language construction as "Jesus is God" hasn't merited the attention I've given it to-date, and certainly doesn't deserve more of my time now.

Reply is one way to evade interpretative implications of John 1:1c text. A 414 page textbook for first year Koine Greek instruction has John 1:1c in Chapter 6 (page 27) => Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar, 3rd ed. by William D. Mounce. In the 2019 revision (504 pages) Basics of Biblical Greek: Grammar, 4th ed. Chapter 6 (page 33) begins with John 1:1c insights. Both editions include exegetical insights for ministry application.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 23 The Son of יהוה God truthfully describes יהוה Father being both biological (Holy virgin birth) & spiritual (יהוה God) for יהוה Jesus. Caveat is יהוה The Word portion of One Holy יהוה God (יהוה Jesus) experienced יהוה God's Glory at יהוה Father's side (John 17:5) before One Holy יהוה God (יהוה Father & יהוה The Word & יהוה Breath The Holy) created the world.

@Bill_Coley July 24 This paragraph contains several assertions of your personal theology to which, of course, you have every right, but with which I continue to take issue:

@Bill_Coley July 24 * God was Jesus' biological father

@Bill_Coley July 24 * Jesus is the "Word" described in the prologue of John's Gospel

@Bill_Coley July 24 * The "Word" was a "portion" of "One Holy God"

We agree about three assertions. Notably missing is my assertion of יהוה The Word (Jesus) spiritually existing before יהוה God created the world.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 23 While "distinction" expresses your faith belief interpretation, Could the Son of יהוה God possibly be one voice in One Holy יהוה God (plural elohim) ?

@Bill_Coley July 24 "Distinction" expresses my good faith interpretation of the Acts 4 text in which Peter says God raised Jesus from the dead, an interpretation that relies on the text as its first source. It's worthy of note that you cite no part of the Acts 4 text to support your "could the Son of יהוה God possibly be..." speculation. As a result, I think it's clear which of our respective interpretations of the text is more an expression of a "faith belief" rather than the content of the text.

If believe Jesus is NOT "part of Holy יהוה God", then Acts 4 God raising Jesus from the dead is clearly two distinct beings.

If believe יהוה Jesus is "part of Holy יהוה God", then Acts 4 יהוה God raising יהוה Jesus from the dead is One Holy יהוה God.

 

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 23 Matthew 26:57-68 text disagrees with idea 'That the religious leaders CLAIMED Jesus thought he was God ', which is NOT what Caiaphas asked Jesus and NOT what יהוה Jesus replied => only claimed to be part of Holy יהוה God. Jewish יהוה Jesus never claimed to be the whole Holy יהוה God.

@Bill_Coley July 24 Jesus did not claim to be "part of Holy יהוה God;" he claimed to be "the Son of God." But since that's your preferred description of the scene, I'll adjust my assertion accordingly: That religious leaders CLAIMED Jesus thought he was part of Holy יהוה God does NOT mean Jesus actually thought himself to be part of Holy יהוה God.

Did Jewish High Priest Caiaphas intentionally miscarriage justice by putting Jewish Jesus under oath ? => But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, “I put you under oath by the living God, that you tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!” (Matthew 26:63 LEB)

Jewish law requires two OR three credible witnesses for legitimate verdict => On the evidence of two or three witnesses the person shall be put to death. The person shall not be put to death by the mouth of one witness. (Deuteronomy 17:6 LEB) & The testimony of a single witness may not be used to convict with respect to any crime and for any wrongdoing in any offense that a person committed; on the evidence of two witnesses or on the evidence of three witnesses a charge shall be sustained. (Deuteronomy 19:15 LEB)

For Jewish blasphemy verdict, the Jewish religious leaders who wanted Jewish Rabbi Jesus to be put to death became the two or three witnesses per Jewish law => Then the high priest tore his robes, saying, “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have just now heard the blasphemy! What do you think?” And they answered and said, “He deserves death!” (Matthew 26:65-66 LEB)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 23 Jewish High Priest Caiaphas understood Jewish deity expressions by Jewish Rabbi Jesus and believed identification words (part of Holy יהוה God) cursed the whole Holy יהוה God => Jewish Blasphemy verdict (so Jewish Rabbi Jesus deserved death) was correct per faith belief ideas of Jewish High Priest Caiaphas (right in his eyes after many years of studying Scripture along with Jewish oral law & tradition, albeit motive for killing יהוה Jesus was sin in the eyes of Holy יהוה God).

@Bill_Coley July 24 But as you have finally acknowledged, the Jewish leaders were not always correct. This instance, I contend, is an example of the mistakes they made.

What word(s) in the text provide basis for Jewish legal mistake about intentionally wanting Jesus put to death ?

To me, the word "mistake" infers accidental. What the Jewish religious leaders did in declaring יהוה Jesus guilty of Blasphemy was intentional, verified by Jewish religious leaders handing Jewish יהוה Jesus over to Roman governor Pilate and saying => The Jews replied to him, “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself out to be the Son of God!” (John 19:7 LEB) plus SHOUTED AT Pilate => From this point on Pilate was seeking to release him, but the Jews shouted, saying, “If you release this man, you are not a friend of Caesar! Everyone who makes himself out to be a king opposes Caesar!” (John 19:12 LEB) followed by more intentional SHOUTS => Then those shouted, “Away with him! Away with him! Crucify him!” Pilate said to them, “Shall I crucify your king?” The chief priests replied, “We do not have a king except Caesar!” (John 19:15 LEB)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 23 Repeating question: What is the Name of My Father for Jesus ?

@Bill_Coley July 24 What this question means or seeks is not obvious to me.

In John 10:25, What is the Name of My Father for Jesus ?

@Bill_Coley July 24 For starters, Jesus called God "God," "Father," "the LORD your God," and, from the cross, "Eli" as found in Psalm 22.

Noticed John 10:25 is not in the starter list => Jesus answered them, “I told you and you do not believe! The deeds that I do in the name of my Father, these testify about me. (John 10:25 LEB)

Psalm 22 observation is some nicknames are the first syllable of the name: e.g. Ed for Edward. El אל is the first syllable of Elohim אלהים (plural God). "Eli" is El & I (1st person singular pronoun). Hence "Eli" => "My God" OR "God of me"

Keep Smiling 😊

Bill_Coley

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

We agree about three assertions. Notably missing is my assertion of יהוה The Word (Jesus) spiritually existing before יהוה God created the world.

As the words with which I introduced the list of those three assertions made clear, we very much DO NOT agree about them: "This paragraph contains several assertions of your personal theology to which, of course, you have every right, but with which I continue to take issue:"

As for the pre-existence material, I've made my wrestling with it clear in several posts over the months of our exchanges. There is no change in its state or my wrestling.

If believe יהוה Jesus is "part of Holy יהוה God", then Acts 4 יהוה God raising יהוה Jesus from the dead is One Holy יהוה God.

And here you make my point: My understanding of Peter's words to the crowd in Acts 4 comes from the text itself (the text indeed says what I say it says), while yours requires the pre-existing belief - what you call a "faith belief" - that "יהוה Jesus is "part of Holy יהוה God" (you can't quote from anywhere in the Acts 4 text to support your point; only your "faith belief" backs it up).

Did Jewish High Priest Caiaphas intentionally miscarriage justice by putting Jewish Jesus under oath ? => But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, “I put you under oath by the living God, that you tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!” (Matthew 26:63 LEB)

Caiaphas asked Jesus whether he was the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus answered, "You have said it," and later in his response referred to himself as "the Son of Man" who would be seen "sitting at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven." So Jesus believes himself to be "the Son of Man" who will be seated at the right hand of "the Power." Who or what is "the Power"? God. => Jesus believes that as the Son of Man - NOT as God - he will sit next to God. That, too, is a clear distinction.

For Jewish blasphemy verdict, the Jewish religious leaders who wanted Jewish Rabbi Jesus to be put to death became the two or three witnesses per Jewish law => Then the high priest tore his robes, saying, “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have just now heard the blasphemy! What do you think?” And they answered and said, “He deserves death!” (Matthew 26:65-66 LEB)

What was the blasphemy? Claiming to be what you call "part of Holy יהוה God"? In my view, it doesn't matter how many "witnesses" attested to it (Matthew 26.59 says, "...the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false testimony against Jesus in order that they could put him to death," so it's not out of line to question their objectivity.

What word(s) in the text provide basis for Jewish legal mistake about intentionally wanting Jesus put to death ?

It's the words that AREN'T in the text that prove the mistake. Jesus doesn't declare himself to be, in your words, "part of Holy יהוה God." You seem to claim the religious leaders believed Jesus had made such a declaration. If the leaders based their action against Jesus on such a belief, they made a mistake, whether intentional or not.

Noticed John 10:25 is not in the starter list => Jesus answered them, “I told you and you do not believe! The deeds that I do in the name of my Father, these testify about me. (John 10:25 LEB)

"Father" is in my "starter list." What part of John 10.25 gives a name for Jesus' Father that's not in my list?

[Deleted User]

If believe Jesus is NOT "part of Holy יהוה God", then Acts 4 God raising Jesus from the dead is clearly two distinct beings.

If believe יהוה Jesus is "part of Holy יהוה God", then Acts 4 יהוה God raising יהוה Jesus from the dead is One Holy יהוה God.

If we believe that a dog is not part of Wolfgang, then the statement "Wolfgang walks his dog" is clearly about two distinct beings.

If we believe that a dog is part of Wolfgang, then the statement "Wolfgang walks his dog" is clearly about one being Wolfgang.

Which faith belief logic should be considered in error?

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 23 While "distinction" expresses your faith belief interpretation, Could the Son of יהוה God possibly be one voice in One Holy יהוה God (plural elohim) ?

@Bill_Coley July 24 "Distinction" expresses my good faith interpretation of the Acts 4 text in which Peter says God raised Jesus from the dead, an interpretation that relies on the text as its first source. It's worthy of note that you cite no part of the Acts 4 text to support your "could the Son of יהוה God possibly be..." speculation. As a result, I think it's clear which of our respective interpretations of the text is more an expression of a "faith belief" rather than the content of the text.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 24 If believe Jesus is NOT "part of Holy יהוה God", then Acts 4 God raising Jesus from the dead is clearly two distinct beings.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 24 If believe יהוה Jesus is "part of Holy יהוה God", then Acts 4 יהוה God raising יהוה Jesus from the dead is One Holy יהוה God.

@Bill_Coley July 24 And here you make my point: My understanding of Peter's words to the crowd in Acts 4 comes from the text itself (the text indeed says what I say it says), while yours requires the pre-existing belief - what you call a "faith belief" - that "יהוה Jesus is "part of Holy יהוה God" (you can't quote from anywhere in the Acts 4 text to support your point; only your "faith belief" backs it up).

Actually, both of our Acts 4 text interpretations declare our faith belief ideas (from our Scripture studying & praying).

Noticed resurrection not mentioned in ensuing Jewish discussion, command & reaction => Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were astonished, and recognized them, that they had been with Jesus. And because they saw the man who had been healed standing there with them, they had nothing to say in return. But after they had ordered them to go outside the Sanhedrin, they began to confer with one another, saying, “What should we do with these men? For that a remarkable sign has taken place through them is evident to all those who live in Jerusalem, and we are not able to deny it! But in order that it may not spread much further among the people, let us warn them to speak no more in this name to anyone at all.” And they called them back and commanded them not to speak or to teach at all in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of יהוה God to listen to you rather than יהוה God, you decide! For we are not able to refrain from speaking about the things that we have seen and heard.” So after threatening them further, they released them, finding no way to punish them on account of the people, because they were all praising יהוה God for what had happened. For the man on whom this sign of healing had been performed was more than forty years old. (Acts 4:13-22 LEB)

If Peter & John believed Jesus is NOT "part of Holy יהוה God", then please explain their defiant response for Jewish Sanhedrin command to shut up about Jesus => But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of יהוה God to listen to you rather than יהוה God, you decide! For we are not able to refrain from speaking about the things that we have seen and heard.” (Acts 4:19-20 LEB)

If Peter & John believed יהוה Jesus is "part of Holy יהוה God", then Acts 4:19-20 text implies their faith belief in יהוה Jesus as יהוה Lord God.

FYI: chapter & verse numbering added ~500 years ago splits up one Greek sentence in Acts 4:5-10 into six numbered fragments.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 24 Did Jewish High Priest Caiaphas intentionally miscarriage justice by putting Jewish Jesus under oath ? => But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, “I put you under oath by the living God, that you tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!” (Matthew 26:63 LEB)

@Bill_Coley July 24 Caiaphas asked Jesus whether he was the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus answered, "You have said it," and later in his response referred to himself as "the Son of Man" who would be seen "sitting at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven." So Jesus believes himself to be "the Son of Man" who will be seated at the right hand of "the Power." Who or what is "the Power"? God. => Jesus believes that as the Son of Man - NOT as God - he will sit next to God. That, too, is a clear distinction.

What text word(s) provide clear distinction basis for יהוה King of Kings, the Son of Man, ruling on יהוה God's Throne, right hand of יהוה "The Power", NOT being a spiritual "part of Holy יהוה God" ?

Jewish High Priest Caiaphas said: “I put you under oath by the living יהוה God, that you tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of יהוה God!” (Matthew 26:63 LEB) that has יהוה Jesus reply: “You have said it.*" * Here the direct object is supplied from context in the English translation (Matthew 26:64 LEB with * footnote) that translates two Koine Greek words "Σὺ εἶπας" (You said) so יהוה Jesus simply affirmed being the Christ (King Messiah), the Son of יהוה God. Also יהוה Jesus elaborated about being King Messiah => “But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of The Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matthew 26:64 LEB) has "But" translation of πλὴν that could have been "indeed":

πλήν

▲ p. 826, p. 669

Adverb used as a conjunction

1. (indeed …) but, only, however, nevertheless, rather (often μέν … πλήν); Adv, −/+, or Alt [1a, b, d]

2. only, in any case, on the other hand, but; P [1b, c, e]29

3. except that (with ὅτι; rare: Acts 20:23); C?-E [1d]30

 G. K. Beale, Daniel J. Brendsel, and William A. Ross, An Interpretive Lexicon of New Testament Greek: Analysis of Prepositions, Adverbs, Particles, Relative Pronouns, and Conjunctions (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2014), 81–82.

“I continued watching in the visions of the night, and look, with the clouds of heaven one like a son of man was coming, and he came to the Ancient of Days, and was presented before him. And to him was given dominion and glory and kingship that all the peoples, the nations, and languages would serve him; his dominion is a dominion without end that will not cease, and his kingdom is one that will not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14) describes the Son of Man along with using title "Ancient of Days" for יהוה God The Will, who became יהוה The Father when יהוה The Word left Holy heaven to take on human flesh as the Son of יהוה God. To me, vision in Daniel 7:1-12 is followed by a flashback in Daniel 7:13-14 for the immensely Joyful exaltation of the resurrected יהוה Jesus returning to be יהוה King of Kings. Holy יהוה God prophecies can lack chronological sequencing: e.g. over 2,000 years between Zechariah 9:9 (King Messiah identified) & Zechariah 9:10 (King Messiah peace for all)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 24 For Jewish blasphemy verdict, the Jewish religious leaders who wanted Jewish Rabbi Jesus to be put to death became the two or three witnesses per Jewish law => Then the high priest tore his robes, saying, “He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have just now heard the blasphemy! What do you think?” And they answered and said, “He deserves death!” (Matthew 26:65-66 LEB)

@Bill_Coley July 24 What was the blasphemy? Claiming to be what you call "part of Holy יהוה God"? In my view, it doesn't matter how many "witnesses" attested to it (Matthew 26.59 says, "...the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false testimony against Jesus in order that they could put him to death," so it's not out of line to question their objectivity.

From Jewish religious leader point of view: "How can this man Jesus be King Messiah ?" => Blasphemy against יהוה God !

False witnesses did not provide credible evidence for Jewish death penalty verdict => Now the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were looking for false testimony against Jesus in order that they could put him to death. And they did not find it, although many false witnesses came forward. And finally two came forward and said, “This man said, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it within three days.’ ” And the high priest stood up and said to him, “Do you reply nothing? What are these people testifying against you?” But Jesus was silent. And the high priest said to him, “I put you under oath by the living God, that you tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of יהוה God!” (Matthew 26:59-63 LEB)

Jewish religious leader miscarriage of justice was seeking self incrimination from יהוה Jesus for Jewish death penalty verdict of Blasphemy.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 24 What word(s) in the text provide basis for Jewish legal mistake about intentionally wanting Jesus put to death ?

@Bill_Coley July 24 It's the words that AREN'T in the text that prove the mistake. Jesus doesn't declare himself to be, in your words, "part of Holy יהוה God." You seem to claim the religious leaders believed Jesus had made such a declaration. If the leaders based their action against Jesus on such a belief, they made a mistake, whether intentional or not.

Searching LEB for Son God finds 89 verses, which includes:

Now all this happened in order that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet would be fulfilled, saying, “Behold, the virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Emmanuel,” which is translated, “יהוה God with us.” (Matthew 1:22-23 LEB)

And when he came to the other side, to the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men coming from among the tombs met him, very violent, so that no one was able to pass by along that road. And behold, they cried out, saying, “What do you have to do with us, Son of יהוה God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?” (Matthew 8:28-29 LEB) that shows demons truly know who יהוה Jesus is

He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living יהוה God!” And Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 16:15-57 LEB)

He trusts in God; let him deliver him now if he wants to, because he said, ‘I am the Son of יהוה God’!” (Matthew 27:43 LEB)

And the unclean spirits, whenever they saw him, were falling down before him and crying out, saying, “You are the Son of יהוה God!” And he warned them strictly that they should not make him known. (Mark 3:11-12 LEB) also shows demons truly know who יהוה Jesus is

And when he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and knelt down before him. And crying out with a loud voice he said, “What have I to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High יהוה God? I implore you by יהוה God, do not torment me!” (For he was saying to him, “Come out of the man, unclean spirit!”) And he was asking him “What is your name?” And he said to him, “My name is Legion, because we are many.” (Mark 5:6-9 LEB)

And when the centurion who was standing opposite him saw that he expired like this, he said, “Truly this man was יהוה God’s Son!” (Mark 15:39 LEB)

And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with יהוה God. And behold, you will conceive in the womb and will give birth to a son, and you will call his name Jesus. This one will be great, and he will be called the Son of the Most High, and the יהוה Lord God will give him the throne of his father David. And he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end. (Luke 1:30-33 LEB)

And Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I have not had sexual relations with a man?” And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore also the one to be born will be called holy, the Son of יהוה God. (Luke 1:34-35 LEB)

Now as the sun was setting, all who had those who were sick with various diseases brought them to him, and placing his hands on every one of them, he healed them. And demons also were coming out of many, crying out and saying, “You are the Son of יהוה God!” And he rebuked them and did not permit them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ. (Luke 4:40-41 LEB) that shows יהוה Jesus commanded the demons to to not speak (noticeably missing from the text is any rebuke about false identification)

“And I tell you, everyone who acknowledges me before people, the Son of Man also will acknowledge him before the angels of יהוה God, but the one who denies me before people will be denied before the angels of יהוה God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him, but to the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven. (Luke 12:8-10 LEB)

Jesus saw Nathanael coming toward him and said about him, “Look! A true Israelite in whom is no deceit!” Nathanael said to him, “From where do you know me?” Jesus answered and said to him, “Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you.” Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of יהוה God! You are the king of Israel!” Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you that I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You will see greater things than these!” And he said to him, “Truly, truly I say to all of you, you will see heaven opened and the angels of יהוה God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.” (John 1:47-51 LEB)

For in this way יהוה God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. For יהוה God did not send his Son into the world in order that he should judge the world, but in order that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of יהוה God. And this is the judgment: that the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone who practices evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds be exposed. But the one who practices the truth comes to the light, in order that his deeds may be revealed, that they are done in יהוה God. (John 3:16-21 LEB)

Then the feast of the Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the Portico of Solomon. So the Jews surrounded him and began to say to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly!” Jesus answered them, “I told you and you do not believe! The deeds that I do in the name of my Father, these testify about me. But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep! My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish forever, and no one will seize them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can seize them from the Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.” Then the Jews picked up stones again so that they could stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good deeds from the Father. For which one of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “We are not going to stone you concerning a good deed, but concerning blasphemy, and because you, although you are a man, make yourself to be יהוה God!” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? If he called them ‘gods’ to whom the word of יהוה God came—and the scripture cannot be broken—do you say about he whom the Father set apart and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of יהוה God’? If I do not do the deeds of my Father, do not believe me. But if I am doing them, even if you do not believe me, believe the deeds, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.” So they were seeking again to seize him, and he departed out of their hand. (John 10:22-39 LEB) that shows Jews wanting to kill יהוה Jesus for Blasphemy understood יהוה deity claim by יהוה Jesus.

And Pilate came outside again and said to them, “Behold, I am bringing him outside to you, so that you will know that I find no basis for an accusation against him.” Then Jesus came outside wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe, and he said to them, “Behold the man!” So when they saw him, the chief priests and the officers shouted, saying, “Crucify! Crucify!” Pilate said to them, “You take him and crucify him! For I do not find a basis for an accusation against him.” The Jews replied to him, “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself out to be the Son of יהוה God!” (John 19:4-7 LEB)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 23 Repeating question: What is the Name of My Father for Jesus ?

@Bill_Coley July 24 What this question means or seeks is not obvious to me.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 24 In John 10:25, What is the Name of My Father for Jesus ?

@Bill_Coley July 24 

Puzzled by question evasion: In John 10:25, What is the Name of My Father for Jesus ?

Related question is What name is to be treated as Holy in Matthew 6:9 ?

@Bill_Coley July 24 For starters, Jesus called God "God," "Father," "the LORD your God," and, from the cross, "Eli" as found in Psalm 22.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 24 Noticed John 10:25 is not in the starter list => Jesus answered them, “I told you and you do not believe! The deeds that I do in the name of my Father, these testify about me. (John 10:25 LEB)

@Bill_Coley July 24 "Father" is in my "starter list." What part of John 10.25 gives a name for Jesus' Father that's not in my list?

Starter list lacked phrase "the Name of My Father" from John 10:25 and Matthew 6:9

John 10:25 text not having יהוה for the Name of My Father is truthfully consistent with Jewish conventions about Holy handling of יהוה (speaking Adonai, Lord instead of pronouncing יהוה that today has HaShem, The Name, spoken for יהוה in Jewish conversations outside synagogues).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 24 If believe Jesus is NOT "part of Holy יהוה God", then Acts 4 God raising Jesus from the dead is clearly two distinct beings.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 24 If believe יהוה Jesus is "part of Holy יהוה God", then Acts 4 יהוה God raising יהוה Jesus from the dead is One Holy יהוה God.

@Wolfgang July 25 If we believe that a dog is not part of Wolfgang, then the statement "Wolfgang walks his dog" is clearly about two distinct beings.

@Wolfgang July 25 If we believe that a dog is part of Wolfgang, then the statement "Wolfgang walks his dog" is clearly about one being Wolfgang.

@Wolfgang July 25 Which faith belief logic should be considered in error?

Spiritual faith belief logic does not matter as earth bound "Wolfgang walks his dog" is not relevant for pondering spiritual nature of One Holy יהוה God. To me, "Wolfgang walks his dog" is simply two physically distinct bodies/beings walking. Human beings are a very special creation ❤️ => And God said, “Let us make humankind in our image and according to our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of heaven, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every moving thing that moves upon the earth.” (Genesis 1:26 LEB) that has three plural pronouns for God (אלהים elohim plural).

One Holy יהוה God is One Spiritual being (with plural voices), who designed & planned physical universe => God speaking created physical realm out of nothing. One Holy יהוה God's design planning included a way for a "part of Holy יהוה God" to remain being the King of the Universe ruling in Holy Heaven as יהוה The Father (The Will) while a different "part of Holy יהוה God", יהוה The Word, took on human flesh. Spiritually יהוה The Word (Jesus) experienced יהוה God's Glory at יהוה Father's side (John 17:5) before One Holy יהוה God (יהוה Father & יהוה The Word & יהוה Breath The Holy) created the physical world. Also יהוה The Word (Jesus) experienced יהוה God's Love before the foundation of the world (John 17:24)

Keep Smiling 😊

[Deleted User]

Spiritual faith belief logic does not matter as earth bound "Wolfgang walks his dog" is not relevant for pondering spiritual nature of One Holy יהוה God.

since when are you a spirit with spiritual faith belief ? You seem to have elevated yourself to spiritual heights out of our human reach ... far above my simple plain human mind which God has given me.... and I thought God had revealed His word in the form of language which humans could and should understand.

Bill_Coley

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

If Peter & John believed Jesus is NOT "part of Holy יהוה God", then please explain their defiant response for Jewish Sanhedrin command to shut up about Jesus

I see nothing in the Acts 4 narrative that suggests Peter and John believed Jesus was "part of Holy יהוה God."

• Acts 4.10 - They attribute the man's healing to the "name of Jesus Christ," one they describe as "the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead." So who is Jesus for Peter and John? The Nazarene whom God raised from the dead. That's yet another clear distinction between Jesus and God.
• It was by the name of Jesus, not his divine powers, that Peter and John healed the man. Notice in Acts 4.7, the Sanhedrin asks "by what power or name did you do this?" So the question whose answer prompted Peter and John's declaration about the name of Jesus differentiated between power and name. Peter and John specified that it was the name of Jesus by which the man had been healed.
• Acts 3.6 - Luke's report of the healing itself confirms what Peter and John told the Sanhedrin: "But Peter said, “Silver and gold ⌊I do not possess⌋, but what I have, this I give to you—in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, walk!”
• Acts 4.19 - The verse makes no mention of or allusion to Jesus. Peter and John tell the Sanhedrin they'll have to decide for themselves whether it's "right in the sight of God" to listen to "God" or to them.
• Acts 4.21 - People praise "God," not Jesus, for the healing.

If Peter & John believed יהוה Jesus is "part of Holy יהוה God", then Acts 4:19-20 text implies their faith belief in יהוה Jesus as יהוה Lord God.

Another tautology: If Peter and John believed Jesus is part of God, then Peter and John believed Jesus is God.

And if red is one of the colors, then red is a color. But if a rake is not one of the colors, then a rake is not a color.

And if Peter and John didn't believe Jesus was part of God, then Peter and John didn't believe Jesus was God....

NOT much of an argument, is it?

Your tautology does not engage the central point I made in that section of my previous post: To justify my take on the Acts 4 passage, I only have to quote the text; it says what I say it says. But the text does NOT say what you say it says unless you assume your "faith belief" to be true. My interpretation needs no pre-existing "faith belief;" the text already supports it. The same cannot be said for your interpretation (or you would have quoted the text by now!)

What text word(s) provide clear distinction basis for יהוה King of Kings, the Son of Man, ruling on יהוה God's Throne, right hand of יהוה "The Power", NOT being a spiritual "part of Holy יהוה God" ?

• The Acts 4 narrative makes no mention of "יהוה King of Kings."
• The Bible makes no mention of "יהוה King of Kings."
• The only references to a "King of Kings" in the New Testament are in Revelation (Rev 17.14; Rev 19.16). In neither passage is the "King of kings (small 'k' on second appearance of the word 'kings')" seated at the right hand of God. In Rev 17.14, the King of kings is the lamb (of God), but not God.
• There is no need for Bible writers explicitly to exclude every thing/role/position that Jesus is not.

To me, vision in Daniel 7:1-12 is followed by a flashback in Daniel 7:13-14 for the immensely Joyful exaltation of the resurrected יהוה Jesus returning to be יהוה King of Kings. Holy יהוה God prophecies can lack chronological sequencing: e.g. over 2,000 years between Zechariah 9:9 (King Messiah identified) & Zechariah 9:10 (King Messiah peace for all)

I welcome you to your interpretation of the Daniel text. In my view, however, the author of Daniel makes a clear distinction between the one described as "like a son of man" and the one called "the Ancient of Days." In the Daniel text, the Ancient of Days gives dominion, glory, and kingship to the son of man, who obviously doesn't have those things before the Ancient of Days gives them. Even if the Daniel text applies to Jesus - which I question - it's clear that it does not equate the son of man with the Ancient of Days.

Searching LEB for Son God finds 89 verses, which includes:...

We've never disagreed that Jesus is the Son of God. We disagree as to what that identification means, but not that it exists.

Starter list lacked phrase "the Name of My Father" from John 10:25 and Matthew 6:9

I don't read "the name of my Father" (small "n" and "m" in LEB, not capitals as you present them) as a name unto itself. My starter list includes "Father," which is the name by which Jesus most often addressed God, and is the name he uses in Matthew 6.9.

[Deleted User]

Another tautology: If Peter and John believed Jesus is part of God, then Peter and John believed Jesus is God.

And if red is one of the colors, then red is a color. But if a rake is not one of the colors, then a rake is not a color.

And if Peter and John didn't believe Jesus was part of God, then Peter and John didn't believe Jesus was God....

NOT much of an argument, is it?

No, no argument at all .... it's just a well put description of "spiritual faith belief" tautology which we poor human logic folks are incapable to ascertain. We lack the spiritual eyes to see beyond the text what the text doesn't say but means to enlightened spirits.

"Spiritual mockery" of such non-sense is intended.

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 26 If Peter & John believed Jesus is NOT "part of Holy יהוה God", then please explain their defiant response for Jewish Sanhedrin command to shut up about Jesus

@Bill_Coley July 26 I see nothing in the Acts 4 narrative that suggests Peter and John believed Jesus was "part of Holy יהוה God."

If Peter & John believed Jesus is NOT God, then Why did Peter & John disobey Jewish Sanhedrin command: NOT to teach in the name of Jesus ?

Acts 4:19-20 defiant reply by Peter & John is followed by Acts 5:12-42 LEB => Now many signs and wonders were being performed among the people through the hands of the apostles. And they were all together in Solomon’s Portico. And none of the rest dared to join them, but the people spoke highly of them. And even more believers in the יהוה Lord were being added, large numbers of both men and women, so that they even carried out the sick into the streets and put them on cots and mats so that when Peter came by, at least his shadow would fall on some of them. And the people of the towns around Jerusalem also came together, bringing the sick and those tormented by unclean spirits, who were all being healed. Now the high priest rose up and all those who were with him (that is, the party of the Sadducees), and they were filled with jealousy. And they laid hands on the apostles and put them in the public prison. But during the night an angel of the יהוה Lord opened the doors of the prison and led them out and said, “Go and stand in the temple courts and proclaim to the people all the words of this life.” And when they heard this, they entered at daybreak into the temple courts and began teaching. Now when the high priest and those with him arrived, they summoned the Sanhedrin—even the whole council of elders of the sons of Israel—and sent to the prison to have them brought. But the officers who came did not find them in the prison, and they returned and reported, saying, “We found the prison locked with all security and the guards standing at the doors, but when we opened them, we found no one inside!” Now when both the captain of the temple and the chief priests heard these words, they were greatly perplexed concerning them, as to what this might be. But someone came and reported to them, “Behold, the men whom you put in prison are standing in the temple courts and teaching the people!” Then the captain went with the officers and brought them, not with force (for they were afraid of the people, lest they be stoned by them). And when they had brought them, they made them stand in the Sanhedrin, and the high priest put a question to them, saying, “We strictly commanded you not to teach in this name? And behold, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching! And you are intending to bring upon us the blood of this man!” But Peter and the apostles answered and said, “It is necessary to obey God rather than men! The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. This one God has exalted to his right hand as Leader and Savior to grant repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.” Now when they heard this, they were infuriated, and were wanting to execute them. But a certain man stood up in the Sanhedrin, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law respected by all the people, and gave orders to put the men outside for a short time. And he said to them, “Men and Israelites, take care for yourselves what you are about to do to these men! For before these days, Theudas rose up saying he was somebody. A number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was executed, and all who followed him were dispersed and came to nothing. After this man, Judas the Galilean rose up in the days of the census and caused people to follow him in revolt. And that one perished, and all who followed him were scattered. And now I tell you, keep away from these men, and leave them alone, because if this plan or this matter is from people, it will be overthrown. But if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them, lest you even be found fighting against God.” So they were persuaded by him. And they summoned the apostles, beat them, commanded them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and released them. So they went out from the presence of the Sanhedrin rejoicing, because they had been considered worthy to be dishonored for the sake of the name. Every day, both in the temple courts and from house to house, they did not stop teaching and proclaiming the good news that the Christ was Jesus.

Solomon's Portico is in the Jewish Temple so signs and wonders were being performed among Jewish people in Jerusalem. Noted Acts 5:14 "even more believers in the יהוה Lord" phrase implies Jesus is יהוה Lord as the apostles were teaching and proclaiming the good news that the Christ (King Messiah) was Jesus (Acts 5:42), which was disobeying Jewish Sanhedren commands: "NOT to speak or to teach at all in the name of Jesus" (Acts 4:18) and "NOT to speak in the name of Jesus" (Acts 5:40).

Noticed Acts 5:17 hypocritical Jewish religious leaders were filled with jealousy (instead of Praising God) and after hearing Jewish Peter & Apostles speak in Acts 5:29-32, hypocritical Jewish religious leaders were infuriated and wanted to murder (greater sin increasing). Another miscarriage of justice by Jewish Sanhedrin is beating the Jewish Apostles (sent by יהוה Jesus) & commanding "NOT to speak in the name of Jesus" (Acts 5:40)

@Bill_Coley July 26 * Acts 4.10 - They attribute the man's healing to the "name of Jesus Christ," one they describe as "the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead." So who is Jesus for Peter and John? The Nazarene whom God raised from the dead. That's yet another clear distinction between Jesus and God.

How does clear distinction provide reason for Peter & John in the sight of God to disobey Jewish Sanhedren command: "NOT to speak or to teach at all in the name of Jesus" (Acts 4:18) ?

Observation is your interpretative comments about Biblical text verse(s) clearly express your faith belief ideas.

@Bill_Coley July 26 * It was by the name of Jesus, not his divine powers, that Peter and John healed the man. Notice in Acts 4.7, the Sanhedrin asks "by what power or name did you do this?" So the question whose answer prompted Peter and John's declaration about the name of Jesus differentiated between power and name. Peter and John specified that it was the name of Jesus by which the man had been healed.

What does Acts 3:16-21 text say about faith in the name of Jesus ?

@Bill_Coley July 26 * Acts 3.6 - Luke's report of the healing itself confirms what Peter and John told the Sanhedrin: "But Peter said, “Silver and gold ⌊I do not possess⌋, but what I have, this I give to you—in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, walk!”

What does Jewish Peter have to give ? trusting faith Jesus Christ is יהוה Lord God ?

And while he was holding fast to Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the portico called Solomon’s, utterly astonished. And when he saw it, Peter replied to the people, “Men and Israelites, why are you astonished at this? Or why are you staring at us, as if by our own power or godliness we have made him walk? The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus, whom you handed over and denied in the presence of Pilate, after he had decided to release him. But you denied the Holy and Righteous One and demanded that a man—a murderer—be granted to you. And you killed the originator of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses! And on the basis of faith in his name, his name has made this man strong, whom you see and know, and the faith that is through him has given him this perfect health in the presence of you all. And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. But the things which God foretold through the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he has fulfilled in this way. Therefore repent and turn back, so that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the יהוה Lord, and he may send the Christ appointed for you—Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the times of the restoration of all things, about which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets from earliest times. Moses said, ‘The יהוה Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brothers. You will listen to him in everything that he says to you. And it will be that every soul who does not listen to that prophet will be destroyed utterly from the people.’ And indeed, all the prophets from Samuel and all those who followed him have spoken about and proclaimed these days. You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God ordained with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring all the nations of the earth will be blessed.’ God, after he had raised up his servant, sent him to you first, to bless you by turning each of you back from your wickedness!” (Acts 3:11-26 LEB)

If believe Jesus is NOT God, please explain Jewish Peter's description of יהוה Jesus => "the originator of life" in Acts 3:15

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 26 If Peter & John believed יהוה Jesus is "part of Holy יהוה God", then Acts 4:19-20 text implies their faith belief in יהוה Jesus as יהוה Lord God.

@Bill_Coley July 26 Another tautology: If Peter and John believed Jesus is part of God, then Peter and John believed Jesus is God.

Peter and John also believed יהוה The Father is יהוה Lord God so believing יהוה Jesus is יהוה Lord God is consistent with John 14:1 command by יהוה Jesus => "Be Ye Believing in/to The God and/also in/to Me Be Ye Believing". One Holy יהוה God = יהוה Father & יהוה Jesus & יהוה Breath The Holy (three distinct voices in One plural unique God).

@Bill_Coley July 26 And if red is one of the colors, then red is a color.

Reminds me of computer screen software model (RGB) for illuminating color. When intensity of Red light, Green light, & Blue light is 100%, then White light color is seen by humans (three clearly distinct bright primary color lights become one pure white light color). When intensity of Red, Green, & Blue is 0 %, then dark Black color is seen by humans (absence of any light). While humanly not knowing relative portion sizes of three voices in One Holy יהוה God: if equal parts, then RGB light analogy with 100% intensity for pure White Light is Red Light shows יהוה Father (The Will), Green Light shows יהוה Jesus (The Word), & Blue Light shows יהוה Breath The Holy. Pure White Light = Red Light & Green Light & Blue Light. Green Light is a part of White Light while White Light is more than Green Light, which is analogous to יהוה Jesus (The Word) being part of יהוה Lord God while whole Holy יהוה Lord God is being more than יהוה Jesus (as succinctly stated in Koine Greek of John 1:1).

Humans who have gone up to Heaven (& came back down to earth) describe יהוה Father & יהוה Jesus as Holy Bright Whilte Lights (much brighter than sun). Caveat is none of the humans who came back to their earthly bodies saw the face of Holy יהוה Father.

FWIW: various intensities of Red & Green & Blue light show every color visible to humans.

@Bill_Coley July 26 And if Peter and John didn't believe Jesus was part of God, then Peter and John didn't believe Jesus was God....

... provides no reason for Peter & John to disobey Jewish Sanhedrin commands in Acts 4:18 & Acts 5:40

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 26 Starter list lacked phrase "the Name of My Father" from John 10:25 and Matthew 6:9

@Bill_Coley July 26 I don't read "the name of my Father" (small "n" and "m" in LEB, not capitals as you present them) as a name unto itself. My starter list includes "Father," which is the name by which Jesus most often addressed God, and is the name he uses in Matthew 6.9.

What is the Holy Name of My Father for Jesus ?

“Our Father who is in heaven, may your name be treated as holy. (Matthew 6:9 LEB) clearly "your name" (singular) is distinct from "Our Father"

“A son honors his father, and a slave his master; but if I am a father, where is my honor, and if I am a master, where is my reverence?” says יהוה Yahweh of hosts to you, O priests, who despise my name. “But you say, ‘How have we despised your name?’ You are presenting defiled food on my altar! But you ask, ‘How have we defiled you?’ By saying that the table of יהוה Yahweh is despised! When you offer a blind animal for sacrifice, is that not wrong? And when you offer the lame and the one who is ill, is that not wrong? Present it, please, to your governor! Will he be pleased with you? Will he show you favor?” says יהוה Yahweh of hosts. (Malachi 1:6-8)

@Wolfgang July 27 "Spiritual mockery" of such non-sense is intended.

Observation is no scripture to discuss in A SCRIPTURE based discussion. To me, appears your words show what you "see" in me about יהוה Jesus.

Keep Smiling 😊

Bill_Coley

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

If Peter & John believed Jesus is NOT God, then Why did Peter & John disobey Jewish Sanhedrin command: NOT to teach in the name of Jesus ?

As the Acts 5 text you quoted makes clear, Peter and James disobeyed the Sandhedrin's command because they believed they had to obey God, the God who, according to their words, was clearly different from Jesus:

But Peter and the apostles answered and said, “It is necessary to obey God rather than men! The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. This one God has exalted to his right hand as Leader and Savior to grant repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.” (Acts 5.29-32, LEB - emphasis added) 

Who is Jesus, according to Peter and James? The one God "raised up" and "exalted to his right hand as Leader and Savior." Why was Jesus was their "Leader and Savior"? Because God had "exalted" him to those positions, NOT because Jesus was God.

That is, the Acts 5 text says Peter and James disobeyed the Sanhedrin in obedience to the God who had raised and exalted Jesus to be their "Leader and Savior."

What I just presented to you was not my "faith belief," but rather an accurate summary of what the Acts 5 text says.

Where in the Acts 5 text do you find support for your view that Peter and James thought Jesus was God? And how does whatever portion of the text you cite explain the declarations made in the verses I just quoted - that they obeyed the God who raised Jesus and exalted him to be "Leader and Savior"?

Noted Acts 5:14 "even more believers in the יהוה Lord" phrase implies Jesus is יהוה Lord as the apostles were teaching and proclaiming the good news that the Christ (King Messiah) was Jesus (Acts 5:42), which was disobeying Jewish Sanhedren commands: "NOT to speak or to teach at all in the name of Jesus" (Acts 4:18) and "NOT to speak in the name of Jesus" (Acts 5:40).

The text does not read "יהוה Lord." As has been the case on multiple previous occasions, you have added to the text, I presume to support your view. But the inference you draw from the amended text seems to rely heavily on your added word, and as such, in my view, is not valid.

Rather than adding words to the text, I take the text as it is and from it draw what I believe are obvious and text-based conclusions for which no inferences are needed: Peter and James believe Jesus is the one God raised and exalted to be "Leader and Savior." In obedience to that God, they disobeyed the Sanhedrin's command.

How does clear distinction provide reason for Peter & John in the sight of God to disobey Jewish Sanhedren command: "NOT to speak or to teach at all in the name of Jesus" (Acts 4:18) ?

Observation is your interpretative comments about Biblical text verse(s) clearly express your faith belief ideas.

As I demonstrated above, my conclusions about Peter and James reflect the text as it is, without added words or other "faith belief" amendments. I look forward to reading your text-as-it-is-based - NOT an amended text- and "faith belief"-based - defense of your view.

What does Acts 3:16-21 text say about faith in the name of Jesus ?

Interesting that you cite those verses, but not the larger context in which those verses reside.

• As to your question: The text says through faith in the name of Jesus, the man has been made strong. The text does NOT say through faith in Jesus as God, the man has been made strong. At no point does the text say Jesus is God. In fact, Peter says...
• Jesus is God's "servant" whom they killed but God "glorified" (Acts 3.13) and "raised from the dead" (Acts 3.15).
• Jesus is God's "Christ," "appointed" for them (Acts 3.18-20).
• Jesus is God's "servant" whom God "sent" to them to turn them from their wickedness once God had "raised (him) up" (Acts 3.26)

What does Jewish Peter have to give ? trusting faith Jesus Christ is יהוה Lord God

The text does not say Jesus Christ is "יהוה Lord God." As on many other occasions, you have added to the text, I presume to support your view.

What Peter gives to the man, in my view, is not trusting faith, but rather healing. Peter has and employs trusting faith, for sure, but what he gives to the man is the healing made possible by that faith.

If believe Jesus is NOT God, please explain Jewish Peter's description of יהוה Jesus => "the originator of life" in Acts 3:15

• In 1 Peter 3, Peter refers to the "good life you now live because you belong to Christ" (1 Peter 3.16, NLT).
• And in 2 Peter 1, he says God has given us "everything we need for living a godly life" (2 Peter 1.3, NLT).

Perhaps Peter means Jesus is the one through whom God makes such a life possible? I don't think it's clear what Peter means, but whatever he means by his reference to Jesus as "the originator of life" must be consistent with his other characterizations of Jesus - specifically, that Jesus is the "servant" God raised to life and exalted to be "Leader and Savior" - characterizations that are not consistent with a belief that Jesus is God.

Peter and John also believed יהוה The Father is יהוה Lord God so believing יהוה Jesus is יהוה Lord God is consistent with John 14:1 command by יהוה Jesus => "Be Ye Believing in/to The God and/also in/to Me Be Ye Believing". One Holy יהוה God = יהוה Father & יהוה Jesus & יהוה Breath The Holy (three distinct voices in One plural unique God).

I welcome you to your views of the cited texts, but your views are clearly shaped by your faith beliefs more than the content of the texts themselves, which does not support your view. Yet again, as you have done on countless other occasions, you have added to the biblical text, I presume to support your view.

Reminds me of computer screen software model (RGB) for illuminating color.

I intended my reference to the color red to be part of a demonstration of the weakness of your tautological arguments. Your RGB reference is creative, but not in keeping with the biblical message about the relationship between Jesus and God, and not at all in keeping with the section of my post that apparently prompted it.

... provides no reason for Peter & John to disobey Jewish Sanhedrin commands in Acts 4:18 & Acts 5:40

Explained above.

“Our Father who is in heaven, may your name be treated as holy. (Matthew 6:9 LEB) clearly "your name" (singular) is distinct from "Our Father"

I'm amazed that despite my asking you multiple times to specify the name for God that my list didn't include, you STILL have not provided it.

In the verse you cite, "Our Father" is not a name Jesus gives to God. "Father" is the name for God, while "Our" simply ascribes possession: Whose "Father" is God? When praying in this manner, Jesus says, God is "OUR" Father. In Matthew 12.50 and Matthew 16.17, God is "my" (Jesus') "Father." In Matthew 6.1,4, God is "your" (i.e. Jesus' disciples') "Father." And in John 20.17, God is both Jesus' and the disciples' "Father." In each case, a possessive pronoun identifies possession, not a entity's name.

When I say, "That's my car," the name I have for the referenced object is "car," not "my car." "My" denotes possession, not object type or name.

"Your name" and "our Father" aren't comparable (i.e. they're apples and oranges), but neither are they mutually exclusive. The God who has a name we should pray to be "treated as holy" is "our Father." No contradiction.

[Deleted User]

The text does not read "יהוה Lord." As has been the case on multiple previous occasions, you have added to the text, I presume to support your view. But the inference you draw from the amended text seems to rely heavily on your added word, and as such, in my view, is not valid.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus argument about ""יהוה Lord" and turning every use of the word in reference of "lord [gr. kurios] to Jesus into "יהוה Lord" and giving it the meaning "YHWH (God)" stems from his Jewish colored ideas and the use of "combining" vowel marks from "Adonai ("lord") for Yhwh and subsequent LXX "translation" of YHWH as kurios ("lord")

This manner of private - his own - interpretation is not only not valid, it is introducing grave error into the otherwise simple and plain meaning of the Biblical text.

[Deleted User]

In the verse you cite, "Our Father" is not a name Jesus gives to God. "Father" is the name for God, while "Our" simply ascribes possession: Whose "Father" is God? When praying in this manner, Jesus says, God is "OUR" Father. In Matthew 12.50 and Matthew 16.17, God is "my" (Jesus') "Father." In Matthew 6.1,4, God is "your" (i.e. Jesus' disciples') "Father." And in John 20.17, God is both Jesus' and the disciples' "Father." In each case, a possessive pronoun identifies possession, not a entity's name.

(1) I would contend that "Father" is not a name either.

(2) I would further contend that "name" in Mt 6:9 employs the figure of speech pleonasm, and is in idiomatic usage a reference to God Himself, not just in a literal sense his "name".

(c) The worship and profession of God is indicated by the phrases “call upon the name of the LORD:” i.e., to worship Jehovah himself (Gen. 4:26. Jer. 10:25).

“To love the name of the LORD;”

“To walk in the name of the LORD;”

“To praise the name of the LORD.”

All these expressions mean, by the figure of Pleonasm, to worship and fear Jehovah Himself as opposed to self, and all other gods.

We have the same figure in the New Testament:—

Matt. 6:9 and Luke 11:2.—“Hallowed be thy name”: i.e., “Let thy holy majesty—thyself alone—be worshipped.”

...

Rev. 15:4.—“Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name?”: i.e., fear and worship Thee Thyself.

Matt. 1:21.—“Thou shalt call his name JESUS”: i.e., shall call Him that holy one Himself.

So Luke 1:13; 2:21.

Rom. 10:13.—“Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”: i.e., not whosoever shall utter the name, but whosoever shall be a true worshipper of God in Christ shall be saved.

So Heb. 13:15. John 1:12; 2:23; 3:18, etc.

(Bullinger, E. W. (1898). Figures of speech used in the Bible (S. 410). London; New York: Eyre & Spottiswoode; E. & J. B. Young & Co.)

The above info from Bullinger's work seems to me clear, simple and plain ... unfortunately, many seem to be very limited in their understanding of the use of figures of speech in the Bible.

C Mc

Wolfgang,

Most people and scholars that view the “Bible as literature" are doubt-filled and biased against the supernatural workings of God. They many times miss the "radical, uncompromising, life-changing force of the Word of God".

However, when Scripture is viewed as “literature”, it should focus on themes, ideas, and messages, all of which are valid aspects of literary analysis. See below for a good introduction to the literary motifs of Scripture.

"The Bible finds us where we are, and, if permitted, takes us where we ought to go.... What the Bible promises is fabulous but not fable.”-Raymond Irving Lindquist, “The Word of God,” Theology Today, vol. 3, No. 2, p. 158.

“The multitudes go to the Bible, not for knowledge, but for power; they go to renew their sense of spiritual realities, and to catch again the vision splendid. This book passes beyond a classic and becomes to men a word of God, because it voices those ultimate truths which give to life its meaning. These are the truths upon which our faith rests, which bring comfort to our hearts, and keep burning the fires of hope. They are as final to religion as the primary colors are to painting, or the line and circle to geometry. The men who first expressed them endeavored to state them in the fullness of power; they were passionately concerned to have these truths produce their full effect in reaching men’s minds and hearts.”-Charles Allen Dinsmore, The English Bible as Literature, pages 102, 103.

One should study the Bible and literature and not just the "Bible as literature". CM

SOURCES:

• Leland Ryken, “‘Words of Delight': The Bible as Literature,” BSac 147 (Jan 1990): 3–15.
• Leland Ryken. How to Read the Bible as Literature (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1984). 

[Deleted User]

@C Mc , and what does your reply have to do with the content of my post to which you replied ???????????????????????????????

someone writes about harvesting fruit in his garden, and you reply with something about vegetables on shelves in supermarket store ???....

Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 28 If Peter & John believed Jesus is NOT God, then Why did Peter & John disobey Jewish Sanhedrin command: NOT to teach in the name of Jesus ?

@Bill_Coley July 28 As the Acts 5 text you quoted makes clear, Peter and James disobeyed the Sandhedrin's command because they believed they had to obey God, the God who, according to their words, was clearly different from Jesus:

@Bill_Coley July 28 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, “It is necessary to obey God rather than men! The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. This one God has exalted to his right hand as Leader and Savior to grant repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him.” (Acts 5.29-32, LEB - emphasis added) 

Searching LEB for "God of" WITHIN 2 WORDS (ancestors OR father OR Abraham OR Isaac OR Jacob OR Israel) finds 289 verses, including:

And אלהים God said again to Moses, “So you must say to the Israelites, ‘יהוה Yahweh, the אלהים God of your ancestors, the אלהים God of Abraham, the אלהים God of Isaac, and the אלהים God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my remembrance from generation to generation.’ Go and gather the elders of Israel and say to them, ‘יהוה Yahweh, the אלהים God of your ancestors, appeared to me, the אלהים God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, “I have carefully attended to you and what has been done to you in Egypt.” (Exodus 3:15-16 LEB with Hebrew lemmas: אלהים e-lo-HEEM plural God & יהוה Holy Name)

And יהוה Yahweh said to Moses, “Reach out your hand and grasp it by its tail”—” (And he reached out his hand and grabbed it, and it became a staff in his palm.)—“so that they may believe that יהוה Yahweh, the אלהים God of their ancestors, appeared to you, the אלהים God of Abraham, the אלהים God of Isaac, and the אלהים God of Jacob.” (Exodus 4:4-5 LEB with Hebrew lemmas: אלהים e-lo-HEEM plural God & יהוה Holy Name)

It happened at the offering of the evening oblation, Elijah the prophet went near, and he said, “O יהוה Yahweh, אלהים God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel; let it be known today that you are אלהים God in Israel and that I am your servant and that I have done all of these things by your words. Answer me, O יהוה Yahweh, answer me; that this people may know that you, O יהוה Yahweh, are אלהים God and that you have turned their hearts back again.” (1 Kings 18:36-37 LEB with Hebrew lemmas: אלהים e-lo-HEEM plural God & יהוה Holy Name)

Hence to me, Acts 5:29-32 reads => But Peter and the apostles answered and said, “It is necessary to obey אלהים God rather than men! The אלהים God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. This one אלהים God has exalted to his right hand as Leader and Savior to grant repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom אלהים God has given to those who obey him.”

@Bill_Coley July 28 Who is Jesus, according to Peter and James? The one God "raised up" and "exalted to his right hand as Leader and Savior." Why was Jesus was their "Leader and Savior"? Because God had "exalted" him to those positions, NOT because Jesus was God.

To me, the right hand of אלהים God (Father) is אלהים God (Son) => two distinct voices being One on Holy יהוה אלהים God's throne. Sanhedrin audience in Acts 5:17-42 included Jewish religious leaders who heard reply to Caiaphas => Jesus said to him, “You have said it. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matthew 26:64 LEB) that hypocritical Jewish religious leaders believed cursed One Holy יהוה אלהים God so Jesus should die for Blasphemy.

@Bill_Coley July 28 That is, the Acts 5 text says Peter and James disobeyed the Sanhedrin in obedience to the God who had raised and exalted Jesus to be their "Leader and Savior."

To me, One Holy יהוה אלהים God = יהוה Father & יהוה Jesus & יהוה Breath The Holy (three distinct voices in One plural אלהים God). Hence, Peter, John, & Apostles disobeyed hypocritical Jewish religious leaders in Sanhedrin by teaching Jesus is יהוה Lord אלהים God, King Messiah, Redeemer.

Thus says יהוה Yahweh, the king of Israel, and its redeemer, יהוה Yahweh of hosts: “I am the first, and I am the last, and there is no אלהים god besides me. (Isaiah 44:6 LEB with two Hebrew lemmas) has plural subject for "I am ..." (unique unity) & אלהים e-lo-HEEM (plural) god

@Bill_Coley July 28 What I just presented to you was not my "faith belief," but rather an accurate summary of what the Acts 5 text says.

Noted your "faith belief" (God ... clearly different than Jesus) embedded in summary of what Acts 5 text says. Hence we disagree about accuracy.

@Bill_Coley July 28 Where in the Acts 5 text do you find support for your view that Peter and James thought Jesus was God? And how does whatever portion of the text you cite explain the declarations made in the verses I just quoted - that they obeyed the God who raised Jesus and exalted him to be "Leader and Savior"?

Started with Jewish meaning of "The God of our fathers" => אלהים e-lo-HEEM (plural) God of our fathers. To me, what Hebrew Bible text says about plural God applies to every God occurence in Acts chapters 1 thru 6. Acts Chapter 7 has gods in Acts 7:40 (for golden calf idol) and "god Rephan" in Acts 7:43 where plural e-lo-HEEM in Amos 5:26 (quoted in Acts 7:43) describes an idol made by humans, NOT "The God of our fathers". LEB translation style (shows "faith belief" ideas) has "God" capitalization that is consistent with "The God of our fathers" => אלהים e-lo-HEEM (plural) God of our fathers, while having "god" OR "gods" (lower case) for idols.

To me, Philippians 2:5-11 reads => Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of אלהים God, did not consider being equal with אלהים God something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also אלהים God exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה Lord, to the glory of אלהים God the Father.

To me, יהוה Jesus (The Word) emptying Himself included giving Righteous King ("Yahweh of Hosts") authority to יהוה Father ruling in Holy Heaven. Exaltation of resurrected יהוה Jesus included יהוה Father giving Righteous King authority back to יהוה Jesus => King of kings & Lord of lords.

Searching LEB for "Yahweh of Hosts" finds 248 verses, including:

In the year of the death of Uzziah the king, I saw the Lord sitting on a high and raised throne, and the hem of his robe was filling the temple. Seraphs were standing above him. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And the one called to the other and said, “Holy, holy, holy is יהוה Yahweh of hosts! The whole earth is full of his glory.” And the pivots of the thresholds shook from the sound of those who called, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said, “Woe to me! For I am destroyed! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I am living among a people of unclean lips, for my eyes have seen the king, יהוה Yahweh of hosts!” (Isaiah 6:1-5 LEB) FYI: Lord in Isaiah 6:1 is אדני Adonai (Jewish verbal substitute for יהוה when reading Scripture OR Praying Siddur text: Baruch atah Adonai ...)

Testimonies of humans who have been to heaven and came back to earth include magnificent descriptions of יהוה Jesus. Lesson learned from one is humans coming back to earth have not seen the Glorious face of יהוה Father. To me, Isaiah 6:1-5 is truthfully consistent with Colossians 1:9-23

How lovely are your dwelling places, O יהוה Yahweh of hosts! My soul longs and even fails for the courtyards of יהוה Yahweh. My heart and flesh sing for joy to the living God. Even a bird finds a home, and a swallow a nest for herself, where she may lay her young, near your altars, O יהוה Yahweh of hosts, my king and my אלהים God. Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they can ever praise you. Selah Blessed is the man whose strength is in you; in their heart are the highways to Zion. Passing through the Valley of Baca, they make it a spring. The early rain covers it with blessings as well. They go from strength to strength, until each appears before אלהים God in Zion. O יהוה Yahweh, אלהים God of hosts, hear my prayer; give ear, O אלהים God of Jacob. Selah Look at our shield, O אלהים God, and have regard for the face of your anointed one. Because better is a day in your courtyards than a thousand elsewhere. I would rather be at the threshold of the house of my אלהים God than to dwell in the tents of wickedness. Because יהוה Yahweh אלהים God is a sun and a shield; יהוה Yahweh gives grace and honor. He does not withhold good from those who walk blamelessly. O יהוה Yahweh of hosts, blessed is the man who trusts you. (Psalm 84:1-12 LEB with Hebrew lemmas) where Psalm 84:12 foreshadows trusting in the name of Jesus as יהוה Lord אלהים God (per my "faith belief"). FYI: God in Psalm 84:2 is אל el (1st syllable of אלהים), which is preceeded by preposition אל (to) so Hebrew word play (el el) translates: "to EL-living" (translation loses word play).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 28 Noted Acts 5:14 "even more believers in the יהוה Lord" phrase implies Jesus is יהוה Lord as the apostles were teaching and proclaiming the good news that the Christ (King Messiah) was Jesus (Acts 5:42), which was disobeying Jewish Sanhedren commands: "NOT to speak or to teach at all in the name of Jesus" (Acts 4:18) and "NOT to speak in the name of Jesus" (Acts 5:40).

@Bill_Coley July 28 The text does not read "יהוה Lord." As has been the case on multiple previous occasions, you have added to the text, I presume to support your view. But the inference you draw from the amended text seems to rely heavily on your added word, and as such, in my view, is not valid.

@Wolfgang July 29 @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus argument about ""יהוה Lord" and turning every use of the word in reference of "lord [gr. kurios] to Jesus into "יהוה Lord" and giving it the meaning "YHWH (God)" stems from his Jewish colored ideas and the use of "combining" vowel marks from "Adonai ("lord") for Yhwh and subsequent LXX "translation" of YHWH as kurios ("lord")

@Wolfgang July 29 This manner of private - his own - interpretation is not only not valid, it is introducing grave error into the otherwise simple and plain meaning of the Biblical text.

To me, @Bill_Coley & @Wolfgang agree about ignoring ancient Jewish cultural "Lord" meaning for Holy יהוה God Name => labeling "יהוה Lord" as invalid, which is consistent with "faith belief" ideas that Lord simply means master, but NOT God => Lord Jesus cannot be God in their view.

If אלהים God truly knows Jesus is יהוה Lord, would אלהים God be righteously angry with one teaching Jesus is NOT יהוה Lord ?

Searching LXX Swete for <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> finds Jewish translation of יהוה YHWH as Κύριος (kurios, Lord) 6,076 times and θεός (theos, God) 247 times. The only original language lemma that always refers to One plural God is Holy Name יהוה YHWH, which was not commonly said by ancient Jews at least a couple centuries before the man Jesus walked on earth, a practice that continues to this day. FWIW: modern marketing for name brand recognition would be thrilled with Jewish repetition of Adonai, Κύριος (kurios, Lord) for יהוה YHWH over 12,000 times annually (suspect repetition is over 20,000 times every year when include numerous Jewish Siddur prayers => Blessed are You, יהוה Lord, our אלהים God, King of the Universe, ...)

@Bill_Coley July 28 Rather than adding words to the text, I take the text as it is and from it draw what I believe are obvious and text-based conclusions for which no inferences are needed: Peter and James believe Jesus is the one God raised and exalted to be "Leader and Savior." In obedience to that God, they disobeyed the Sanhedrin's command.

Observation from reading your posted verse comments is your taking the text "as it is" with your "faith belief" meanings of English words so text clearly shows your "obvious" interpretations. To me, correctly showing (OT) or connecting (NT) ancient Holy God inspired original language usage with modern English shows God's original inspired text meanings: e.g. two Hebrew lemma (word) connections: יהוה Lord & אלהים e-lo-HEEM (plural) God while my July 28 post showed plural God's most Holy Name יהוה connection: "יהוה Lord" so @Wolfgang description about my word argument is accurate (with "faith belief" disagreement) while @Bill_Coley "adding words to the text" has incorrect implications/inferences.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 28 How does clear distinction provide reason for Peter & John in the sight of God to disobey Jewish Sanhedren command: "NOT to speak or to teach at all in the name of Jesus" (Acts 4:18) ?

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 28 Observation is your interpretative comments about Biblical text verse(s) clearly express your faith belief ideas.

@Bill_Coley July 28 As I demonstrated above, my conclusions about Peter and James reflect the text as it is, without added words or other "faith belief" amendments. I look forward to reading your text-as-it-is-based - NOT an amended text- and "faith belief"-based - defense of your view.

As already mentioned, your conclusion about Acts 5 text "as it is" embedded your "faith belief" =>"the God who, according to their words, was clearly different from Jesus" (your appeal to authority "according to their words" has hidden qualifier for your "faith belief" interpretative word meanings).

My desire for what the text says includes Holy God inspired truth in original language & context (primarily ancient Jewish culture).

Puzzled by your "faith belief" (God ... clearly different than Jesus) being consistent with Jewish Sanhedrin belief/commands about Jesus NOT being God so do not understand your motivational thoughts for Peter & John to teach in the name of Jesus while "believing" Jesus is NOT God.

What is truly special in the sight of God about Jesus ? Why did Jewish Peter, John, & disciples disobey Jewish religious commands from the Sanhedrin, Jewish Supreme Court ? (runs counter to teaching of Jesus in Matthew 23:1-12 LEB).

@Bill_Coley July 26 * It was by the name of Jesus, not his divine powers, that Peter and John healed the man. Notice in Acts 4.7, the Sanhedrin asks "by what power or name did you do this?" So the question whose answer prompted Peter and John's declaration about the name of Jesus differentiated between power and name. Peter and John specified that it was the name of Jesus by which the man had been healed.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 28 What does Acts 3:16-21 text say about faith in the name of Jesus ?

@Bill_Coley July 28 Interesting that you cite those verses, but not the larger context in which those verses reside.

My question was in reply to your July 26 comment "It was by the name of Jesus, not his divine powers, that Peter and John healed the man."

@Bill_Coley July 28 * As to your question: The text says through faith in the name of Jesus, the man has been made strong. The text does NOT say through faith in Jesus as God, the man has been made strong. At no point does the text say Jesus is God. In fact, Peter says...

@Bill_Coley July 28 * Jesus is God's "servant" whom they killed but God "glorified" (Acts 3.13) and "raised from the dead" (Acts 3.15).

@Bill_Coley July 28 * Jesus is God's "Christ," "appointed" for them (Acts 3.18-20).

@Bill_Coley July 28 * Jesus is God's "servant" whom God "sent" to them to turn them from their wickedness once God had "raised (him) up" (Acts 3.26)

Noted your "faith belief" distinction shows in your verse comments (your definition of a single voice God that views Jesus as a man, but NOT God). My reading of the Acts 3:11-26 sees יהוה Lord Jesus (Isaiah 52:13-53:12 suffering servant) sent by One Holy יהוה אלהים God, who participated in יהוה אלהים God resurrection of dead human body. One Holy יהוה אלהים God created humankind in the singular image of One Holy יהוה אלהים God => each human has one voice while One plural God has three voices, uniquely different (tri-unity & trinity are study of God, theological, terms to describe One God being clearly different than humans created by One God's breath of life).

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 28 What does Jewish Peter have to give ? trusting faith Jesus Christ is יהוה Lord God

@Bill_Coley July 28 The text does not say Jesus Christ is "יהוה Lord God." As on many other occasions, you have added to the text, I presume to support your view.

@Bill_Coley July 28 What Peter gives to the man, in my view, is not trusting faith, but rather healing. Peter has and employs trusting faith, for sure, but what he gives to the man is the healing made possible by that faith.

To me, Peter's trusting faith Jesus being יהוה Lord God results in יהוה Lord God miraculously healing crippled man (as Peter said in Acts 3:12ff)

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 28 If believe Jesus is NOT God, please explain Jewish Peter's description of יהוה Jesus => "the originator of life" in Acts 3:15

@Bill_Coley July 28 * In 1 Peter 3, Peter refers to the "good life you now live because you belong to Christ" (1 Peter 3.16, NLT)

@Bill_Coley July 28 * And in 2 Peter 1, he says God has given us "everything we need for living a godly life" (2 Peter 1.3, NLT)

@Bill_Coley July 28 Perhaps Peter means Jesus is the one through whom God makes such a life possible? I don't think it's clear what Peter means, but whatever he means by his reference to Jesus as "the originator of life" must be consistent with his other characterizations of Jesus - specifically, that Jesus is the "servant" God raised to life and exalted to be "Leader and Savior" - characterizations that are not consistent with a belief that Jesus is God.

To me, "the originator of life" is truthfully consistent with One Holy יהוה אלהים God breathing life into dust on earth to create the first human man in the singular image of One Holy יהוה אלהים God (Genesis 1:26-28 & Genesis 2:4-7). My plural voice definition of God is also truthfully consistent with יהוה Lord Jesus (Isaiah 52:13-53:12 suffering servant) sent by One Holy יהוה אלהים God, who participated in יהוה אלהים God resurrection of human body brutally killed by crucifixion.

If believe Jesus is NOT God, then "faith belief" includes Jesus lying in John 10:17-18 (so Jesus sinned thus cannot be Holy Savior for anyone else). The "faith belief" argument of Jesus being The Anointed One from God knowingly having God ability/authority given to Jesus, which has NOT been given to any other human => reads to me as fantasy from one who believes Jesus is NOT God, which feels partial when want to believe exalted Jesus is a special Lord, but denies who Jesus simply was/is/will be.

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 28 Peter and John also believed יהוה The Father is יהוה Lord God so believing יהוה Jesus is יהוה Lord God is consistent with John 14:1 command by יהוה Jesus => "Be Ye Believing in/to The God and/also in/to Me Be Ye Believing". One Holy יהוה God = יהוה Father & יהוה Jesus & יהוה Breath The Holy (three distinct voices in One plural unique God).

@Bill_Coley July 28 I welcome you to your views of the cited texts, but your views are clearly shaped by your faith beliefs more than the content of the texts themselves, which does not support your view. Yet again, as you have done on countless other occasions, you have added to the biblical text, I presume to support your view.

Your assertion about "the content of the texts themselves, which does not support your view" expresses yet again your "faith belief" interpretation using your "definition" of translated text words so the text "clearly" shows your interpretation (again using debating tactic of appealing to an unnamed authority about the texts themselves, which has also been done in many of your replies).

One Holy יהוה אלהים God's Love ❤️ provides reason for me to keep replying while NOT welcoming you to your view. My Scripture text word meanings are literally based on One Holy יהוה אלהים God's original language inspiration. Searching Lexham Hebrew Bible (LHB) for <Root = lbs/he/אֱלֹהִים> INTERSECTS <Person God> finds 2,104 verses where 2,330 results are plural e-lo-HEEM while 51 are singular e-lo-HE (so my faith believes One God truthfully inspired thousands of plural e-lo-HEEM to describe One God).

Keep Smiling 😊

Bill_Coley

@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:

Hence to me, Acts 5:29-32 reads => But Peter and the apostles answered and said, “It is necessary to obey אלהים God rather than men! The אלהים God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. This one אלהים God has exalted to his right hand as Leader and Savior to grant repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom אלהים God has given to those who obey him.”

Regardless of the Hebrew Bible words for "God" you import into your interpretation of the Acts 5 text, the meaning remains the same: God raised Jesus, whom others had killed, to be "Leader and Savior." Who had died? Jesus. Who raised the one who had died? God. If Peter believed Jesus was God - if he believed any of the other Hebrew Bible words for "God" changed the plain meaning of his stated distinction between God and the one God raised - Peter could have said so, but he didn't. He said - and this is what the text says, not my "faith belief" - God raised Jesus, which presents a clear distinction between the one raised (Jesus) and the one who raised him (God).

To me, the right hand of אלהים God (Father) is אלהים God (Son) => two distinct voices being One on Holy יהוה אלהים God's throne. Sanhedrin audience in Acts 5:17-42 included Jewish religious leaders who heard reply to Caiaphas => Jesus said to him, “You have said it. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” (Matthew 26:64 LEB) that hypocritical Jewish religious leaders believed cursed One Holy יהוה אלהים God so Jesus should die for Blasphemy.

To you and your faith belief, but not to the text.

To me, One Holy יהוה אלהים God = יהוה Father & יהוה Jesus & יהוה Breath The Holy (three distinct voices in One plural אלהים God). Hence, Peter, John, & Apostles disobeyed hypocritical Jewish religious leaders in Sanhedrin by teaching Jesus is יהוה Lord אלהים God, King Messiah, Redeemer.

To you and your faith belief, but not to the text.

Noted your "faith belief" (God ... clearly different than Jesus) embedded in summary of what Acts 5 text says. Hence we disagree about accuracy.

As I have made clear to you on perhaps a dozen previous occasions, my "faith beliefs" are products of my engagement with the biblical text, NOT its precursors. My apparent inability to make that fact clear to you disappoints me every time your posts make clear that I've yet to do so.

Started with Jewish meaning of "The God of our fathers" => אלהים e-lo-HEEM (plural) God of our fathers. To me, what Hebrew Bible text says about plural God applies to every God occurence in Acts chapters 1 thru 6. Acts Chapter 7 has gods in Acts 7:40 (for golden calf idol) and "god Rephan" in Acts 7:43 where plural e-lo-HEEM in Amos 5:26 (quoted in Acts 7:43) describes an idol made by humans, NOT "The God of our fathers". LEB translation style (shows "faith belief" ideas) has "God" capitalization that is consistent with "The God of our fathers" => אלהים e-lo-HEEM (plural) God of our fathers, while having "god" OR "gods" (lower case) for idols.

Regardless of the Hebrew Bible words for "God" you import into your interpretation of the Acts 5 text, the meaning remains the same: God raised Jesus, whom others had killed, to be "Leader and Savior."

To me, Philippians 2:5-11 reads => Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of אלהים God, did not consider being equal with אלהים God something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also אלהים God exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה Lord, to the glory of אלהים God the Father.

To you and your faith belief.

The Philippians text is one of the few - but I acknowledge, difficult - biblical challenges to my point of view about Jesus (John's prologue, the pre-existence material, and Thomas' "My Lord and my God" being among the few others). I'm confessional about the challenges those sections create for me. My best response at this point in my spiritual journey is that WHATEVER those sections say about Jesus MUST be consistent with the message about him presented in the rest of the New Testament. It cannot be true that some passages accurately say Jesus is God, while all the others accurately say Jesus is not God. There must be one and ONLY one accurate message about Jesus common to all of them. Given that to my reading, the VAST majority of texts say Jesus is NOT God, in my view it must be true that those texts which appear to say Jesus is God mean something other than what they appear to mean. Otherwise there is an irreconcilable conflict in the biblical text.

To me, @Bill_Coley & @Wolfgang agree about ignoring ancient Jewish cultural "Lord" meaning for Holy יהוה God Name => labeling "יהוה Lord" as invalid, which is consistent with "faith belief" ideas that Lord simply means master, but NOT God => Lord Jesus cannot be God in their view.

In SOME uses, "Lord" DID mean God. But in my view (and I think Wolfgang's, though I don't speak for him), when the disciples call Jesus "Lord," they did NOT mean God.

If אלהים God truly knows Jesus is יהוה Lord, would אלהים God be righteously angry with one teaching Jesus is NOT יהוה Lord ?

And if אלהים God truly knows Jesus is NOT יהוה Lord, would אלהים God be righteously angry with one teaching Jesus IS יהוה Lord?... (Not much of an argument, is it?)

Searching LXX Swete for <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> finds Jewish translation of יהוה YHWH as Κύριος (kurios, Lord) 6,076 times and θεός (theos, God) 247 times. The only original language lemma that always refers to One plural God is Holy Name יהוה YHWH, which was not commonly said by ancient Jews at least a couple centuries before the man Jesus walked on earth, a practice that continues to this day. FWIW: modern marketing for name brand recognition would be thrilled with Jewish repetition of Adonai, Κύριος (kurios, Lord) for יהוה YHWH over 12,000 times annually (suspect repetition is over 20,000 times every year when include numerous Jewish Siddur prayers => Blessed are You, יהוה Lord, our אלהים God, King of the Universe, ...)

I welcome you to your view that there is "One plural God," but in my view, your view is not supported by the biblical text or the meaning of the plural nouns translated therein as God. In ancient times, plural nouns for God reported greatness and magnitude, not quantity.

Observation from reading your posted verse comments is your taking the text "as it is" with your "faith belief" meanings of English words so text clearly shows your "obvious" interpretations. To me, correctly showing (OT) or connecting (NT) ancient Holy God inspired original language usage with modern English shows God's original inspired text meanings: e.g. two Hebrew lemma (word) connections: יהוה Lord & אלהים e-lo-HEEM (plural) God while my July 28 post showed plural God's most Holy Name יהוה connection: "יהוה Lord" so @Wolfgang description about my word argument is accurate (with "faith belief" disagreement) while @Bill_Coley "adding words to the text" has incorrect implications/inferences.

I celebrate your faith and welcome you to the interpretations of texts that either spring from or produce that faith. We disagree as to interpretation, but we agree as to the power and necessity of faith.

And yet again I must tell you that my faith beliefs are products of, not precursors to, my interpretations of biblical texts. And yet again I am disappointed by my inability to make that point clear to you.

As already mentioned, your conclusion about Acts 5 text "as it is" embedded your "faith belief" =>"the God who, according to their words, was clearly different from Jesus" (your appeal to authority "according to their words" has hidden qualifier for your "faith belief" interpretative word meanings).

"According to their words" = What the text says.

If a text says "The door was grey," it's not an appeal to some "unknown authority" for me to say the text says the door was grey. It's simply what the text says - no additional authority needed.

My desire for what the text says includes Holy God inspired truth in original language & context (primarily ancient Jewish culture).

I admire your passion for and facility with the original biblical languages.

Puzzled by your "faith belief" (God ... clearly different than Jesus) being consistent with Jewish Sanhedrin belief/commands about Jesus NOT being God so do not understand your motivational thoughts for Peter & John to teach in the name of Jesus while "believing" Jesus is NOT God.

Peter and James tell us how they could teach in the name of Jesus while not "believing" Jesus is God. They call Jesus the "one God has exalted to his right hand as Leader and Savior to grant repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins" (Acts 5.31, LEB). Peter and James taught in Jesus' name because they believed he was their "Leader and Savior," exalted to those positions by God.

What is truly special in the sight of God about Jesus ? Why did Jewish Peter, John, & disciples disobey Jewish religious commands from the Sanhedrin, Jewish Supreme Court ? (runs counter to teaching of Jesus in Matthew 23:1-12 LEB).

See previous response.

Noted your "faith belief" distinction shows in your verse comments (your definition of a single voice God that views Jesus as a man, but NOT God). My reading of the Acts 3:11-26 sees יהוה Lord Jesus (Isaiah 52:13-53:12 suffering servant) sent by One Holy יהוה אלהים God, who participated in יהוה אלהים God resurrection of dead human body. One Holy יהוה אלהים God created humankind in the singular image of One Holy יהוה אלהים God => each human has one voice while One plural God has three voices, uniquely different (tri-unity & trinity are study of God, theological, terms to describe One God being clearly different than humans created by One God's breath of life).

I welcome you to your faith beliefs and celebrate the faith those beliefs support. We disagree as to whether the biblical text supports those faith beliefs.

To me, Peter's trusting faith Jesus being יהוה Lord God results in יהוה Lord God miraculously healing crippled man (as Peter said in Acts 3:12ff)

The question I answered asked what Peter gave to the man, not where the man's healing ultimately came from. I agree with you that God was the one who healed the man. I contend what Peter gave the man was healing, not "trusting faith."

To me, "the originator of life" is truthfully consistent with One Holy יהוה אלהים God breathing life into dust on earth to create the first human man in the singular image of One Holy יהוה אלהים God (Genesis 1:26-28 & Genesis 2:4-7). My plural voice definition of God is also truthfully consistent with יהוה Lord Jesus (Isaiah 52:13-53:12 suffering servant) sent by One Holy יהוה אלהים God, who participated in יהוה אלהים God resurrection of human body brutally killed by crucifixion.

I welcome you to your view, but disagree with your "plural voice definition of God." As I posted in my previous reply, it's not clear to me what the phrase "originator of life" means.

If believe Jesus is NOT God, then "faith belief" includes Jesus lying in John 10:17-18 (so Jesus sinned thus cannot be Holy Savior for anyone else). The "faith belief" argument of Jesus being The Anointed One from God knowingly having God ability/authority given to Jesus, which has NOT been given to any other human => reads to me as fantasy from one who believes Jesus is NOT God, which feels partial when want to believe exalted Jesus is a special Lord, but denies who Jesus simply was/is/will be.

To my reading of the verses, there is nothing in John 10.17-18 that contradicts my belief about Jesus, or that makes Jesus out to be a liar. Please cite the specific portions of the verses in which you contend my belief about Jesus means he lied.

Your assertion about "the content of the texts themselves, which does not support your view" expresses yet again your "faith belief" interpretation using your "definition" of translated text words so the text "clearly" shows your interpretation (again using debating tactic of appealing to an unnamed authority about the texts themselves, which has also been done in many of your replies).

The "unknown authority" to which I appeal in these cases is not unknown at all. It's the biblical text. Careful review of your and my responses over the many months of our exchanges will note, I'm confident, your greater reliance on texts and resources OTHER than the text(s) under review, and my greater reliance on the text themselves, not other texts and resources.

One Holy יהוה אלהים God's Love ❤️ provides reason for me to keep replying while NOT welcoming you to your view. My Scripture text word meanings are literally based on One Holy יהוה אלהים God's original language inspiration. Searching Lexham Hebrew Bible (LHB) for <Root = lbs/he/אֱלֹהִים> INTERSECTS <Person God> finds 2,104 verses where 2,330 results are plural e-lo-HEEM while 51 are singular e-lo-HE (so my faith believes One God truthfully inspired thousands of plural e-lo-HEEM to describe One God).

It's certainly been true over the course of our many exchanges that I've welcomed you to your views FAR more frequently and consistently than you've welcomed me to mine. I think the disparity between our respective receptions of each other's disagreements with our own views is disappointing, but not surprising.

[Deleted User]

To me, @Bill_Coley & @Wolfgang agree about ignoring ancient Jewish cultural "Lord" meaning for Holy יהוה God Name => labeling "יהוה Lord" as invalid, which is consistent with "faith belief" ideas that Lord simply means master, but NOT God => Lord Jesus cannot be God in their view.

To YOU ... and your faith belief.

If אלהים God truly knows Jesus is יהוה Lord, would אלהים God be righteously angry with one teaching Jesus is NOT יהוה Lord ?

What if the opposite is true and God knows that he is not a multi-voices-split personality and that he is not Jesus ????

Keep elevating yourself, and smile away ... perhaps one day you will notice and realize that God is not a team of multiple voices