A SCRIPTURE based discussion of the Trinity
Comments
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If Jewish Rabbi Jesus did not believe himself to be יהוה Lord, then receiving human worship violates Exodus 20:4-6 command => sin (so if Jesus is NOT God, then Jesus is NOT savior from sin for anyone).
As already mentioned many times before, the word for "worship" does NOT ONLY mean "worship as God", rather it means more " to bow, to show love, devotion, respect".
I "worship" my wife .... I "worshiped" my parents ... I "worship" some of my teachers. I am NOT an idolator in doing so, even though I "worship" people who are NOT God. Why? Because I "worship" them not as God, but as what they were and are.
Just because people bowed and worshiped Jesus as king, as their teacher, their master, their lord does not make Jesus to be God, nor does it make them to violate God's command.
Simple and plain truth ... so. please, stop twisting the texts with your false faith belief ....
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 14 Caution is circular reasoning issue: personal faith belief sees the text saying so repeating "the text says" reinforces personal faith belief ideas. Humans can use phrase "the text says" to deceive themselves about what "the text says" (so phrase sounds authoritative while actually declaring personal faith belief ideas, which could be mishandling the Word of God).
@Bill_Coley June 15 Why do you use third person language to raise suspicion about my approach to the biblical text? "Humans can... deceive themselves"?
Simple desire for respectful Theological discussion (e.g. criticize ideas, not people). Thankful for Jesus oft teaching God's Truth using third person.
Discussion idea is: 'Humans can use phrase "the text says" to deceive themselves about what "the text says" (so phrase sounds authoritative while actually declaring personal faith belief ideas, which could be mishandling the Word of God).' Whether theological idea about "the text says" deception applies to you personally (or other CD posters) is an individual decision.
@Bill_Coley June 15 I don't know how else to make my point. It's not that we disagree; it's that we can't communicate on this. Your responses show no awareness whatsoever, let alone any understanding, of the point I'm making, no matter how many times or in how many forms I present it.
@Bill_Coley June 9 FIRST TEXT, THEN BELIEF.
My goal is: First Holy God's Truth in Biblical context (ancient Jewish culture), then my belief (with modern cultural application).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 14 What happens when personal faith belief ideas about what "the text says" does not match what Holy God inspired/intended "the text to say" ?
@Bill_Coley June 15 If a text doesn't say "XYZ," it doesn't say "XYZ," regardless of the reader's "personal faith belief." Genesis 1.1 does NOT say, "the devil created heavens and the earth" REGARDLESS of the "personal faith belief" of the reader. I don't expect you to agree with that claim, so in advance I surrender to you on that point as well.
What happens when personal faith belief definition(s) for Biblical word(s) does not match Biblical meaning intended by Holy God inspiration ?
FWIW: searching Bible for verses having heart AND (deceit OR deception OR lie) in the Lexham Hebrew Bible finds 17 verses. In contrast, searching LEB for verses having pure heart finds 9 verses: e.g. Blessed are the pure in heart, because they will see God (Matthew 5:8 LEB)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 14 FWIW: every human has a spiritual adversary (enemy), who calls attention to human sin action choices before Holy God (especially evil thoughts placed by spiritual enemy into human brains, which human sinfully choose to obey). "Climbing Into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven" by Michele Pulford includes description of Hi Pitch & Lo Pitch voices (and what those tormenting demons looked like in Hell).
@Bill_Coley June 15 And I wish you well in your confrontations with your "spiritual adversary" and the "evil thoughts" it may place in your brain.
In the middle of Lamentations 3 is: Let us test and examine our ways; let us return to Yahweh. Let us lift up our hearts with our hands to God in the heavens. (Lamentations 3:40-41 LEB). Thankful for my reading response in several places being to kneel, lift up my hands, and Praise God 😍
Thankful for Trauma Healing Institute free Basics that has three questions: (along with Safe Listener's Promise)
- What happened ?
- How did it make you feel ?
- What was the hardest part for you ?
Thankful for Michele Pulford's writing style answering these questions many times (she experienced lots of trauma => many tears for me 😭). Thankful for her testimony helping my 🙏 prayer communion with God to understand my hurts, habits, and hangups since my intense desire is: Be Holy as God is Holy ❤️ Thankful for many chapters including relevant Bible verses. Pure in heart has nothing to fear from our spiritual enemy.
Chapter 7 has a corollary example to idea: 'Humans can use phrase "the text says" to deceive themselves about what "the text says" (so phrase sounds authoritative while actually declaring personal faith belief ideas, which could be mishandling the Word of God).' At age 16, Michele felt the black monster of hell after nearly starving herself to death. She also heard God's thunderous, all-powerful voice: "Michele! Michele, what are you doing? Why are you doing this to yourself?" ... In the hospital, a mirror was brought into her room by the medical staff. Michele's faith belief frame of reference looked in the mirror to see a big, fat, ugly pig. Michele's parents and medical staff saw her emaciated skeleton with skin (similar to Nazi concentration camp survivors). Michele intently refused to believe the emaciated skeletal truth about her 57 pound body.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 We disagree. Recently learned Jewish scholars a couple centuries before Christ, often translated the phrase "I YHWH" "אֲנִ֥י יְהוָֽה" into the Greek LXX as "I Lord" "ἐγὼ Κύριος" OR "I Am Lord" "ἐγώ εἰμι Κύριος", sometimes as "I The God" "ἐγὼ ὁ θεός". Thankful Logos Bible Search for phrase "<LogosMorphHeb = RP1-S> <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה>" in the Lexham Hebrew Bible can show corresponding results in LXX Swete and English Bible(s) with Reverse Interlinears: e.g. ASV 1901, KJV 1900, LEB, NLT, ... Jewish Rabbi Jesus and Jewish disciples of Jesus had heard Κύριος (Lord) spoken for יהוה thousands of times in Synagogue scripture readings. Bible search for <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> in LHB finds יהוה often translated into Greek LXX as "Κύριος", sometimes as "The God" "ὁ θεός"
@Bill_Coley June 12 If Jesus believed himself to be God - if THAT'S what he meant when he employed the word "Lord" to describe himself to his followers - it makes no sense to me whatsoever that he NEVER made that connection explicit for them or anyone else. It's one of the most momentous claims of personal identity possible, but Jesus NEVER made it public? He was willing to claim that God had sent him, that he knew God like no one else knew God, but he wasn't willing to say he WAS God?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 14 To really Love God first requires human choice (reason for parables in Mark 4:10-12). Searching Gospels for believe finds many verses. Have 🙏prayed like father's request to Jesus in Mark 9:14-29 a number of times. What did Jesus teach about authority and believing in Matthew 21:23-46 ? What did demons say about Jesus in Mark 1:22-28 ? What did Jesus say in the Luke 4:16-30 synagogue teaching ? Why did hometown people not believe Jesus ? What message was given to the man in Luke 8:26-39 ? What does John 14:1 command about believing in God & in Jesus (me) ?
@Bill_Coley June 15 Your response doesn't address the point I made. So I make this request: Please cite the verse in which Jesus made an explicit connection between his calling himself the disciples' "Lord" and his belief that he was God. If you can't cite such a verse, then you will have made my point that your response here doesn't address.
To your point about explicit expression/connection, How is ancient Jewish identification worded differently than modern Western culture ?
Why did Jewish hearers of Jewish Rabbi Jesus want to kill Jesus ? Matthew 26:57-68, Mark 14:53-65, Luke 22:66-71, John 8:31-59, John 10:22-39
What had Jewish Rabbi Jesus said that deserved Jewish death penalty in accordance with Torah teaching (Leviticus 24:10-16) ?
Who is Righteous King in God's Holy Heaven ? And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (Matthew 28:18 LEB) To me, only God has "All authority in heaven and on earth" (them in Matthew 28:18 are his disciples)
If Jesus did not believe Himself to be יהוה Lord God, then Matthew 7:21-23 lacks authority (compare with Matthew 7:28-29 & Matthew 28:18).
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘יהוה Lord, יהוה Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘יהוה Lord, יהוה Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many miracles in your name?’ And then I will say to them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness!’ (Matthew 7:21-23 LEB with יהוה meaning for Lord in accordance with Jewish Scripture reading of יהוה => Lord that began in the Second Temple period)
Sermon on the mount began: Now when he saw the crowds, he went up the mountain and after he sat down, his disciples approached him. And opening his mouth he began to teach them, saying, (Matthew 5:1-2 LEB) => "them" includes his disciples and the crowds
Who has authority to verbally command stones to become bread ? Matthew 4:1-4 & Luke 4:1-4 (To me, only God can speak creation/change)
And as he got into the boat, his disciples followed him. And behold, a great storm arose on the sea, so that the boat was being inundated by the waves, but he himself was asleep. And they came and woke him, saying, “יהוה Lord, save us! We are perishing!” And he said to them, “Why are you fearful, you of little faith?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the sea and there was a great calm. And the men were astonished, saying, “What sort of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him?” (Matthew 8:23-27 LEB)
And immediately he made the disciples get into the boat and go ahead of him to the other side, while he sent away the crowds. And after he sent away the crowds, he went up on the mountain by himself to pray. So when evening came, he was there alone. But the boat was already many stadia distant from the land, being beaten by the waves, because the wind was against it. And in the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. But the disciples, when they saw him walking on the sea, were terrified, saying, “It is a ghost!” and they cried out in fear. But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Have courage, I am! Do not be afraid!” And Peter answered him and said, “יהוה Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water!” So he said, “Come!” And getting out of the boat, Peter walked on the water and came toward Jesus. But when he saw the strong wind, he was afraid. And beginning to sink, he cried out, saying, “יהוה Lord, save me!” And immediately Jesus extended his hand and caught him and said to him, “You of little faith! Why did you doubt?” And when they got into the boat, the wind abated. So those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God!” (Matthew 14:22-33 LEB with he addition removed from Matthew 14:27)
FWIW: "the Son of God" describes Jesus human body being a descendant of King David (The Word spiritually inside body was eternally being God).
Who did God's voice identify Jesus as ? => And after six days Jesus took along Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothing became bright as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with him. So Peter answered and said to Jesus, “יהוה Lord, it is good that we are here! If you want, I will make here three shelters, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and behold, a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased. Listen to him!” And when the disciples heard this, they fell down on their faces and were extremely frightened. And Jesus came and touched them and said, “Get up and do not be afraid.” And when they lifted up their eyes they saw no one except him—Jesus alone. And as they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them saying, “Tell no one the vision until the Son of Man is raised from the dead.” And the disciples asked him, saying, “Then why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” And he answered and said, “Elijah indeed is coming, and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but did with him whatever they wanted. In the same way also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that he had spoken to them about John the Baptist. (Matthew 17:1-13 LEB)
FWIW: "the Son of Man" refers to Daniel 7:13-14, which Jesus used to describe Himself (third person style of speaking).
And as he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came up to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” And Jesus answered and said to them, “Watch out that no one deceives you! For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will deceive many. And you are going to hear about wars and rumors of wars. See to it that you are not alarmed, for this must happen, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise up against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. But all these things are the beginning of birth pains. (Matthew 24:3-8 LEB)
FWIW: Searching Greek New Testament for "ἐγώ εἰμί" OR <Root = lbs/el/κυριος> OR <Root = lbs/el/θεος> OR <Root = lbs/el/βλασφημεω> finds 1,793 verses. Thankful can see corresponding search results in Bible (e.g. LEB) with Reverse Interlinear alignment.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 14 If Jewish Rabbi Jesus did not believe himself to be יהוה Lord, then receiving human worship violates Exodus 20:4-6 command => sin (so if Jesus is NOT God, then Jesus is NOT savior from sin for anyone).
@Wolfgang June 15 As already mentioned many times before, the word for "worship" does NOT ONLY mean "worship as God", rather it means more " to bow, to show love, devotion, respect".
Worship range of expression concurs with command: “You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth. You will not bow down to them, and you will not serve them, because I am Yahweh your God, a jealous God, punishing the guilt of the parents on the children on the third and on the fourth generations of those hating me, and showing loyal love to thousands of generations of those loving me and of those keeping my commandments. (Exodus 20:4-6 LEB)
I, Yahweh, examine the mind, I test the heart, and give to each one according to his way, according to the fruit of his deeds. (Jeremiah 17:10 LEB)
Jewish Rabbi Jesus receiving worship (e.g. John 20:24-29 "My Lord and My God") sharply contrasts with Angel response in Revelation 22:8-11.
Jewish Rabbi Jesus lived in a culture where Jewish Religious leaders were interpreting & applying 613 Mitzvot (commands) in Torah to daily living.
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Wolfgang June 15 I "worship" my wife .... I "worshiped" my parents ... I "worship" some of my teachers. I am NOT an idolator in doing so, even though I "worship" people who are NOT God. Why? Because I "worship" them not as God, but as what they were and are.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus I, Yahweh, examine the mind, I test the heart, and give to each one according to his way, according to the fruit of his deeds. (Jeremiah 17:10 LEB)
What does this reply have to do with my statement to which it is your response?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Jewish Rabbi Jesus lived in a culture where Jewish Religious leaders were interpreting & applying 613 Mitzvot (commands) in Torah to daily living.
Jesus was NOT a Jewish Rabbi. The Jewish religious leaders were MISINTERPRETING and MISAPPLYING God's commands in favor of their tradition of the elders.
Reading your ideas about these Jewish ideas reveals why you rejects simple and plain words inspired of God in favor of your non-biblical church denominational traditions.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
Simple desire for respectful Theological discussion (e.g. criticize ideas, not people). Thankful for Jesus oft teaching God's Truth using third person.
We disagree as to what qualifies as "respectful" discussion. In my view, if you have something to say to someone, you say it - respectfully, of course, but directly. If you believe that I am or might be deceiving myself, then say it. Your "humans can deceive themselves..." tactic comes across as passive-aggressive criticism, as if you do believe I'm deceiving myself, but you're not willing to say it directly, so you generalize your critique into a mistake "humans" can make... when they they claim "the text says," which just happens to be the exact claim that I make in many of my posts. If you have something to say, say it.
Discussion idea is: 'Humans can use phrase "the text says" to deceive themselves about what "the text says" (so phrase sounds authoritative while actually declaring personal faith belief ideas, which could be mishandling the Word of God).' Whether theological idea about "the text says" deception applies to you personally (or other CD posters) is an individual decision.
So I guess I should point out that "humans" who emphasis the role of "personal faith belief frames of reference" in their online posts can also rob convenience stores and murder family members. Of course, whether those robbery and murder aspects apply to you is an individual decision.
My goal is: First Holy God's Truth in Biblical context (ancient Jewish culture), then my belief (with modern cultural application).
Clearly stated. Thank you. My claim, however, was that your posts had shown no awareness, let alone understanding, of the point I was trying to make on the matter. Your testimony here as to YOUR goal, while valuable and appreciated, doesn't address my claim.
What happens when personal faith belief definition(s) for Biblical word(s) does not match Biblical meaning intended by Holy God inspiration ?
That's an issue for everyone who interprets the biblical text. Given that "humans" can be human, I assume we all make mistakes in our interpretations.
I expect God to hold me accountable for the choices I made in my life, including the choices I made as an interpreter of Scripture. And further, I expect to accept that accountability and to confess my mistakes when God shows them to me. Until then, I interpret the Bible as I do because it's what I genuinely believe the Bible to say. I assume you interpret the Bible the way you do, at least in part, for the same reason.
Chapter 7 has a corollary example to idea: 'Humans can use phrase "the text says" to deceive themselves about what "the text says" (so phrase sounds authoritative while actually declaring personal faith belief ideas, which could be mishandling the Word of God).' At age 16, Michele felt the black monster of hell after nearly starving herself to death. She also heard God's thunderous, all-powerful voice: "Michele! Michele, what are you doing? Why are you doing this to yourself?" ... In the hospital, a mirror was brought into her room by the medical staff. Michele's faith belief frame of reference looked in the mirror to see a big, fat, ugly pig. Michele's parents and medical staff saw her emaciated skeleton with skin (similar to Nazi concentration camp survivors). Michele intently refused to believe the emaciated skeletal truth about her 57 pound body.
I'll pass along this anecdote at the next meeting of my chapter of the International Society of Humans Who Use the Phrase "The Text Says," but I have to recommend that you not expect many of my colleagues to see any connection between Michele's story and the focus of our exchange in this thread.
To your point about explicit expression/connection, How is ancient Jewish identification worded differently than modern Western culture ?
Is this your way of acknowledging that there is no verse/passage in which Jesus connects his self-description as "Lord" with his being God?
Why did Jewish hearers of Jewish Rabbi Jesus want to kill Jesus ? Matthew 26:57-68, Mark 14:53-65, Luke 22:66-71, John 8:31-59, John 10:22-39
In succession:
- Matthew 26.57-68 - Because Jesus' answers to the high priest reported that he thought himself to be "the Christ, the Son of God," and the "Son of Man" who would sit at God's right hand and then return.
- Mark 14.53-65 - Because in response to the high priest, Jesus asserted that he was "the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One," and as the Son of Man would both sit at God's right hand and, eventually, return.
- Luke 22.66-71 - Because in response to questions from members of the Sanhedrin, Jesus did not say whether he was the Christ, DID say that he would be the Son of Man who would be seated at God's right hand, and told the Sanhedrin that they had said he was the Son of God.
- John 8.31-59 - Because in response to a crowd, Jesus claimed to have heard things from God (v.40), to have come from God, who sent him (v.42), claimed as his "Father" the one they call "God" (v.54), and that Abraham had foreseen and rejoiced over his (Jesus') eventual coming.
- John 10.22-39 - Because the crowd believed Jesus had made himself to be God (v.33), a perception Jesus corrected when he claimed to be the "Son of God" (v.36), and because Jesus claimed that "the Father is in" him, just as he is "in the Father."
I asked for a verse in which Jesus connects his self-description as "Lord" with his being God. None of the passages you cited contains such a verse. In fact, none of the passages you cite contains a verse that says Jesus is God.
What had Jewish Rabbi Jesus said that deserved Jewish death penalty in accordance with Torah teaching (Leviticus 24:10-16) ?
The Leviticus text is about a man who curses/blasphemes the name of God (v.11). I don't see an obvious connection between that text and any of the previous texts you cited, other than the shared word "blasphemes." I see no assertion in the Leviticus text that the man claimed to be "the Son of Man" or "the Son of God," so please demonstrate the relevance of the Leviticus text.
Who is Righteous King in God's Holy Heaven ? And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (Matthew 28:18 LEB) To me, only God has "All authority in heaven and on earth" (them in Matthew 28:18 are his disciples)....
I could go through the rest of your citations, but the core response would always be the same: Where is verse/passage that connects Jesus' self-description as "Lord" with a claim to be God? The fact is there is no such verse or passage.
FWIW: "the Son of God" describes Jesus human body being a descendant of King David (The Word spiritually inside body was eternally being God).
Where in the biblical text do you find support for this view of Jesus as the Son of God?
After all of our exchanges, you STILL have not cited a verse or passage in which Jesus claims to be God. The Son of God? Yes. The Son of Man? Yes. One who believed he would one day sit at God's right hand? Yes. But actually God? No. The reason you haven't done so, in my view, is simply that no such verse or passage exists. If one existed, you would have quoted it by now.
In my previous post, about your skepticism of what you called the "purpose" of my "view" that one of your claims was not supported by Scripture I asked, "Given that I wrote the 'in my view' statement at issue, I feel confident about my description of its purpose. What's the basis of YOUR confidence in YOUR description of the purpose of the statement I wrote?" You didn't respond, so I ask that question again.
I also asked how I could show Agape love for God if I didn't follow the one God had sent for me. I ask that question again as well.
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@Wolfgang June 15 I "worship" my wife .... I "worshiped" my parents ... I "worship" some of my teachers. I am NOT an idolator in doing so, even though I "worship" people who are NOT God. Why? Because I "worship" them not as God, but as what they were and are.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 16 I, Yahweh, examine the mind, I test the heart, and give to each one according to his way, according to the fruit of his deeds. (Jeremiah 17:10 LEB)
@Wolfgang June 16 What does this reply have to do with my statement to which it is your response?
Every human really, really, really chooses what to Love (& Worship) ❤️the most. Thankful Holy Lord God truly knows individual human motivation for actions, which will be Righteously rewarded according to the fruit of the deeds. To me, loving other people as God Loves me expresses/shares God's Love ❤️ while Exodus 20:4-6 commands me to worship only God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 16 Jewish Rabbi Jesus lived in a culture where Jewish Religious leaders were interpreting & applying 613 Mitzvot (commands) in Torah to daily living.
Please provide two OR three verifiable witnesses for idea: "Jesus was NOT a Jewish Rabbi."
What Jews called Jesus Rabbi OR Rabboni ? Logos Bible Search for <Root = lbs/el/ραββι> finds 17 verses, with 15 of them => Jewish Rabbi Jesus
Matthew 15:1-9 & Mark 7:1-13 agree with tradition chosen over God's word. Yet Matthew 23 begins with Jesus encouraging people to do what the Jewish religious leaders said to do while not imitating their example.
Puzzling rejection idea: curious about verifiable church denominational tradition witnesses ? (not knowingly posting for any church denomination)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 16 Simple desire for respectful Theological discussion (e.g. criticize ideas, not people). Thankful for Jesus oft teaching God's Truth using third person.
@Bill_Coley June 16 We disagree as to what qualifies as "respectful" discussion. In my view, if you have something to say to someone, you say it - respectfully, of course, but directly. If you believe that I am or might be deceiving myself, then say it. Your "humans can deceive themselves..." tactic comes across as passive-aggressive criticism, as if you do believe I'm deceiving myself, but you're not willing to say it directly, so you generalize your critique into a mistake "humans" can make... when they they claim "the text says," which just happens to be the exact claim that I make in many of my posts. If you have something to say, say it.
Concur we disagree. Observation is my direct OR indirect replies receive your criticisms: dismissive penchant OR passive-aggressive
Reason for third person human deception idea is awareness of human nature from Biblical studies (idea simply describes a number of humans).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 16 Discussion idea is: 'Humans can use phrase "the text says" to deceive themselves about what "the text says" (so phrase sounds authoritative while actually declaring personal faith belief ideas, which could be mishandling the Word of God).' Whether theological idea about "the text says" deception applies to you personally (or other CD posters) is an individual decision.
@Bill_Coley June 16 So I guess I should point out that "humans" who emphasis the role of "personal faith belief frames of reference" in their online posts can also rob convenience stores and murder family members. Of course, whether those robbery and murder aspects apply to you is an individual decision.
Puzzled by desire to increase your CD reputation for 'fabella sine argumento' (robbery & murder ideas lack credibility). In contrast is the words of Jesus being truthfully consistent: e.g. teaching about murder in Matthew 5:21-26
“You have heard that it was said to the people of old, ‘Do not commit murder,’ and ‘whoever commits murder will be subject to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry at his brother will be subject to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Stupid fool!’ will be subject to the council, and whoever says, ‘Obstinate fool!’ will be subject to fiery hell. Therefore if you present your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and first go be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your gift. Settle the case quickly with your accuser while you are with him on the way, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will never come out of there until you have paid back the last penny! (Matthew 5:21-26 LEB)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 16 My goal is: First Holy God's Truth in Biblical context (ancient Jewish culture), then my belief (with modern cultural application).
@Bill_Coley June 16 Clearly stated. Thank you. My claim, however, was that your posts had shown no awareness, let alone understanding, of the point I was trying to make on the matter. Your testimony here as to YOUR goal, while valuable and appreciated, doesn't address my claim.
We disagree about my awareness of your claim (e.g. your February 15 desire for my "penchant for dismissive personal addresses" to cease).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 16 What happens when personal faith belief definition(s) for Biblical word(s) does not match Biblical meaning intended by Holy God inspiration ?
@Bill_Coley June 16 That's an issue for everyone who interprets the biblical text. Given that "humans" can be human, I assume we all make mistakes in our interpretations.
We agree. Our spiritual adversary wants to "help" our thoughts to be selfishly human so we stumble in Loving ❤️ God first. One lesson learned from reading "Climbing Into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven" by Michele Pulford is choosing anger/hate provides opportunity for demonic possession (ongoing voices inside human until set free by God: Michele choose to believe Jesus is יהוה Lord). Warning: reading Michele Pulford's life story has lots of tears 😭 plus can be terrifying & tormenting. Thankful her description of Heaven being magnificent beyond words to describe agrees with other testimonies (Michele mentions brutality of Hell is easier to describe than wonders of Holy Heaven).
@Bill_Coley June 16 I expect God to hold me accountable for the choices I made in my life, including the choices I made as an interpreter of Scripture. And further, I expect to accept that accountability and to confess my mistakes when God shows them to me. Until then, I interpret the Bible as I do because it's what I genuinely believe the Bible to say. I assume you interpret the Bible the way you do, at least in part, for the same reason.
Thankful to be a child of God, who is still living & learning (enjoys joining all Nature in Praising God), which includes God answering my prayers to help me understand God's Word (has helped & corrected me a number of times). Thankful Holy Lord יהוה God Truth is consistent.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 16 Chapter 7 has a corollary example to idea: 'Humans can use phrase "the text says" to deceive themselves about what "the text says" (so phrase sounds authoritative while actually declaring personal faith belief ideas, which could be mishandling the Word of God).' At age 16, Michele felt the black monster of hell after nearly starving herself to death. She also heard God's thunderous, all-powerful voice: "Michele! Michele, what are you doing? Why are you doing this to yourself?" ... In the hospital, a mirror was brought into her room by the medical staff. Michele's faith belief frame of reference looked in the mirror to see a big, fat, ugly pig. Michele's parents and medical staff saw her emaciated skeleton with skin (similar to Nazi concentration camp survivors). Michele intently refused to believe the emaciated skeletal truth about her 57 pound body.
@Bill_Coley June 16 I'll pass along this anecdote at the next meeting of my chapter of the International Society of Humans Who Use the Phrase "The Text Says," but I have to recommend that you not expect many of my colleagues to see any connection between Michele's story and the focus of our exchange in this thread.
Human self deception can be so genuinely intense that God's truth is simply & deliberately dismissed. After Michele choose to believe Jesus is יהוה Lord (tormented the demonic voices, who had been tormenting her), the next hospital mirror experience had her seeing herself truthfully.
@Bill_Coley June 15 Your response doesn't address the point I made. So I make this request: Please cite the verse in which Jesus made an explicit connection between his calling himself the disciples' "Lord" and his belief that he was God. If you can't cite such a verse, then you will have made my point that your response here doesn't address.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 16 To your point about explicit expression/connection, How is ancient Jewish identification worded differently than modern Western culture ?
@Bill_Coley June 16 Is this your way of acknowledging that there is no verse/passage in which Jesus connects his self-description as "Lord" with his being God?
Curious about your "Text First" basis for: explicit connection between his calling himself the disciples' "Lord" and his belief that he was God ?
Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted by the devil, and after he had fasted forty days and forty nights, then he was hungry. And the tempter approached and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, order that these stones become bread.” But he answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man will not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes out of the mouth of God.’ ” Then the devil took him to the holy city and placed him on the highest point of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down! For it is written, ‘He will command his angels concerning you,’ and ‘On their hands they will lift you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’ ” Jesus said to him, “On the other hand it is written, ‘You are not to put the יהוה Lord your God to the test.’ ” Again the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him, “I will give to you all these things, if you will fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go away, Satan, for it is written, ‘You shall worship the יהוה Lord your God and serve only him.’ ” Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and began ministering to him. (Matthew 4:1-11 LEB)
If believe The Word is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then "the יהוה Lord your God" simply includes Jesus (humble third person expression).
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then what does "the Lord your God" mean ? Why did the devil obey command by Jesus: "Go away, Satan" ?
At that time Jesus went through the grain fields on the Sabbath. And his disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck off heads of grain and eat them. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, “Behold, your disciples are doing what it is not permitted to do on the Sabbath!” So he said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those with him, how he entered into the house of God and ate the bread of the presentation, which it was not permitted for him or for those with him to eat, but only for the priests? Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple violate the sanctity of the Sabbath and are guiltless? But I tell you that something greater than the temple is here! And if you had known what it means, ‘I want mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of Man is יהוה lord of the Sabbath.” (Matthew 12:1-8 LEB)
What/Who is greater than the Jewish Temple with daily offerings to Holy God along with three annual feasts to remember/experience Holy God ?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 16 Why did Jewish hearers of Jewish Rabbi Jesus want to kill Jesus ? Matthew 26:57-68, Mark 14:53-65, Luke 22:66-71, John 8:31-59, John 10:22-39
@Bill_Coley June 16 In succession:
- @Bill_Coley June 16 Matthew 26.57-68 - Because Jesus' answers to the high priest reported that he thought himself to be "the Christ, the Son of God," and the "Son of Man" who would sit at God's right hand and then return.
- @Bill_Coley June 16 Mark 14.53-65 - Because in response to the high priest, Jesus asserted that he was "the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One," and as the Son of Man would both sit at God's right hand and, eventually, return.
- @Bill_Coley June 16 Luke 22.66-71 - Because in response to questions from members of the Sanhedrin, Jesus did not say whether he was the Christ, DID say that he would be the Son of Man who would be seated at God's right hand, and told the Sanhedrin that they had said he was the Son of God.
- @Bill_Coley June 16 John 8.31-59 - Because in response to a crowd, Jesus claimed to have heard things from God (v.40), to have come from God, who sent him (v.42), claimed as his "Father" the one they call "God" (v.54), and that Abraham had foreseen and rejoiced over his (Jesus') eventual coming.
- @Bill_Coley June 16 John 10.22-39 - Because the crowd believed Jesus had made himself to be God (v.33), a perception Jesus corrected when he claimed to be the "Son of God" (v.36), and because Jesus claimed that "the Father is in" him, just as he is "in the Father."
'In succession' answered "What had Jewish Rabbi Jesus said" while providing no reason(s) for Jewish hearers of Jewish Rabbi Jesus to kill Jesus. To me, Jesus is correct about "Son of God" (The Word) being in One plural unique יהוה God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 16 What had Jewish Rabbi Jesus said that deserved Jewish death penalty in accordance with Torah teaching (Leviticus 24:10-16) ?
@Bill_Coley June 16 The Leviticus text is about a man who curses/blasphemes the name of God (v.11). I don't see an obvious connection between that text and any of the previous texts you cited, other than the shared word "blasphemes." I see no assertion in the Leviticus text that the man claimed to be "the Son of Man" or "the Son of God," so please demonstrate the relevance of the Leviticus text.
Jewish religious lawyers and judges, experts on "the text says", had personal choice what to do with truthful words spoken by Jewish Rabbi Jesus: either Worship Jesus as יהוה Lord God OR believe Jesus deserved to die for cursing God. Jewish death penalty for blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16) was the personal choice by those who genuinely believed Jesus could NOT be God (so diety words of Jesus => cursing God from faith belief that no human body could have part of the One plural unique God's spiritual being inside: humans inherit sin nature from Adam & Eve sin choices).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 16 Who is Righteous King in God's Holy Heaven ? And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (Matthew 28:18 LEB) To me, only God has "All authority in heaven and on earth" (them in Matthew 28:18 are his disciples)....
@Bill_Coley June 16 I could go through the rest of your citations, but the core response would always be the same: Where is verse/passage that connects Jesus' self-description as "Lord" with a claim to be God? The fact is there is no such verse or passage.
Does any being other than God rule the Kingdom of God ? Right hand of power describes authoritatively ruling in the Kingdom of God, consistent with Matthew 28:18 so Matthew 21:23-46 connects Jesus (right hand King-Righteousness ruler in the Kingdom of God) with Lord.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 16 FWIW: "the Son of God" describes Jesus human body being a descendant of King David (The Word spiritually inside body was eternally being God).
@Bill_Coley June 16 Where in the biblical text do you find support for this view of Jesus as the Son of God?
“I, Jesus, sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” (Revelation 22:16 LEB) Psalm 2:6-7 is truthfully consistent with Psalm 132:10-18 God's Son, King, is the anointed one descendant of David.
For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. His dominion will grow continually, and to peace there will be no end on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and sustain it with justice and righteousness now and forever. The zeal of Yahweh of hosts will do this. (Isaiah 9:6-7 LEB)
“ ‘I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication, and they will look to me whom they pierced, and they shall mourn over him, as one wails over an only child, and they will grieve bitterly over him as one grieves bitterly over a firstborn. (Zechariah 12:10 LEB)
Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in the hollow of his hand? Who has wrapped water in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name and what is the name of his child? For surely you know. (Proverbs 30:4 LEB)
See, O Lord, and raise up their king for them, a son of David, for the proper time that you see, God, to rule over Israel your servant. (Psalms of Solomon 17:23 Lexham English Septuagint)
@Bill_Coley June 16 After all of our exchanges, you STILL have not cited a verse or passage in which Jesus claims to be God. The Son of God? Yes. The Son of Man? Yes. One who believed he would one day sit at God's right hand? Yes. But actually God? No. The reason you haven't done so, in my view, is simply that no such verse or passage exists. If one existed, you would have quoted it by now.
Noticed passage summary left out Jesus experiencing God's Glory (John 17:5) & God's Love (John 17:24) before God created out of nothing (only being in existence was God so prayer of Jesus describes two voices in One plural unique God). Puzzled by your text first approach lacking ancient Jewish cultural expressions (as a number of Jewish ways are not explained in Biblical text, simply assumed original audience already knew them). Hence, your view description looks right in your own eyes (just does not "see" multitude of Jewish diety expressions).
@Bill_Coley June 16 In my previous post, about your skepticism of what you called the "purpose" of my "view" that one of your claims was not supported by Scripture I asked, "Given that I wrote the 'in my view' statement at issue, I feel confident about my description of its purpose. What's the basis of YOUR confidence in YOUR description of the purpose of the statement I wrote?" You didn't respond, so I ask that question again.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 9 If believe Jesus and The Father are One יהוה God, then "the text itself" shows One plural unique יהוה God.
@Bill_Coley June 9 You are of course welcome to this faith belief, one, in my view, however, that is not supported by the biblical text.
. . .
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 14 We simply disagree about purpose of "one, in my view, however, that is not supported by the biblical text." (especially about an if statement)
@Bill_Coley June 15 Given that I wrote the "in my view" statement at issue, I feel confident about my description of its purpose. What's the basis of YOUR confidence in YOUR description of the purpose of the statement I wrote?
Observation is your view came across as passive-aggressive personal criticism (especially when you could have agreed with my 'If' statement while expressing your faith belief view change about 'If' statement after your decade of studying so now believe 'If' statement is unsupported).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 2 Corinthians 10:3-6 is one Greek Sentence in SBLGNT => For although we are living in the flesh, we do not wage war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not merely human, but powerful to God for the tearing down of fortresses, tearing down arguments and all pride that is raised up against the knowledge of God, and taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. And we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is completed. (2 Corinthians 10:3-6 LEB)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 If believe Christ is NOT God, then taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ is obeying someone/something other than God.
@Bill_Coley June 12 I agree. It's obeying the one God sent.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 14 If believe God The Father and Lord Jesus Christ are clearly distinct, then how does human obeying Lord Jesus Christ (one sent) really show Agape Love to the clearly distinct God The Father (sender) ?
@Bill_Coley June 15 Because Jesus is the Christ, God's chosen one, a representative and voice for God unlike any other in human history. How could I show agape love for God were I to deny the one God sent for me?
@Bill_Coley June 16 I also asked how I could show Agape love for God if I didn't follow the one God had sent for me. I ask that question again as well.
Seems you believe two voices (God The Father & Jesus) provide direction for loving One God. Perplexed by desire to believe Jesus is worthy to be followed & obeyed while believing Jesus is NOT God => disodedience of John 14:1 command by Jesus to be believing in Jesus, same as be believing in God.
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
Concur we disagree. Observation is my direct OR indirect replies receive your criticisms: dismissive penchant OR passive-aggressive
"Humans can deceive themselves" is not a direct reply.
"Humans can deceive themselves"... when they say "the text says," as I often say in my posts, is an indirect comment about me - a person - not my ideas. So first, I dispute the propriety of your "humans can..." criticism given that in these forums we're to criticize ideas, not people. But more to my point, if you simply MUST tell me that you think I am deceiving myself, then tell me you think I'm deceiving myself. Don't tell me that "humans" who say what I say can deceive themselves.
The best course of action is to criticize ideas, not people. But if that's not a guideline you're willing and/or able to comply with, then at least be direct about your criticisms of people rather than their ideas.
Reason for third person human deception idea is awareness of human nature from Biblical studies (idea simply describes a number of humans).
But in this thread you're engaging only ONE human - me - one who happens to use the phrase "the text says" that shaped the premise of your criticisms of those third person "humans."
Puzzled by desire to increase your CD reputation for 'fabella sine argumento' (robbery & murder ideas lack credibility). In contrast is the words of Jesus being truthfully consistent: e.g. teaching about murder in Matthew 5:21-26
The fact that my robbery and murder analogy lacked "credibility" was EXACTLY the point. It was as absurd as your suggestion to me that whether I was one of the "humans" deceiving myself was "an individual decision."
We disagree about my awareness of your claim (e.g. your February 15 desire for my "penchant for dismissive personal addresses" to cease).
No. The claim for which in my view you have shown no awareness has NOTHING to do the character of your personal addresses. Instead, said claim is my claim that when the biblical text comes first, it is the text that shapes our personal faith claims, and NOT our personal faith claims that shape our view of the biblical text.
Human self deception can be so genuinely intense that God's truth is simply & deliberately dismissed. After Michele choose to believe Jesus is יהוה Lord (tormented the demonic voices, who had been tormenting her), the next hospital mirror experience had her seeing herself truthfully.
Again with the "human" self-deception.
I'm not "Michele." I'm not tormented by "demonic voices." I DO see myself "truthfully" more often than not. Michele and I share humanity, but such an overlap is not a sufficient basis for your speculation about my self-deception, especially not in forums that expect us to criticize ideas, not people.
Curious about your "Text First" basis for: explicit connection between his calling himself the disciples' "Lord" and his belief that he was God ?
The text is always the first (and most important) place I go when I want to understand Jesus and his relationship to and with God. It's not the ONLY place I go, but it's always the first one. Where is the FIRST place you go to understand Jesus' relationship to and with God?
If believe The Word is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then "the יהוה Lord your God" simply includes Jesus (humble third person expression).
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then what does "the Lord your God" mean ? Why did the devil obey command by Jesus: "Go away, Satan" ?
I encourage you to revisit the temptation scene, for in it I think we find powerful witness as to whether Jesus thinks he's God.
In the third temptation, the devil tells Jesus he can have everything he sees if he only will fall down and worship him (the devil). In response, Jesus says it is written that a person can only worship God. Capture the flow:
- Devil: You can have it all if you will worship me!
- Jesus: I can't worship you because it is written I can only worship God.
I believe that's one of Jesus' most obvious rejections of personal divinity. He COULD have used the moment to assert his divinity, but he didn't; he didn't even hint at it. Instead, he gave every indication that he didn't see himself as God; he saw himself as one commanded by Scripture to worship God.
What/Who is greater than the Jewish Temple with daily offerings to Holy God along with three annual feasts to remember/experience Holy God ?
In the text you cited, at least in some ways David and his cadre (who eat the temple's bread because they're hungry), as well as Jesus' disciples (who strip heads of grain on the Sabbath) and the temple priests (who were in the temple on the Sabbath) were all greater than the temple and the rules surrounding it.
I must also note that while in the text you cited, Jesus claims to be the Lord of the Sabbath, he does not claim to be God.
'In succession' answered "What had Jewish Rabbi Jesus said" while providing no reason(s) for Jewish hearers of Jewish Rabbi Jesus to kill Jesus. To me, Jesus is correct about "Son of God" (The Word) being in One plural unique יהוה God.
My summary of each of the texts you cited directly answered the question as to why they wanted to kill Jesus. It was BECAUSE of what they had heard Jesus say or do.
At no time in any of those texts does Jesus claim to be part of "One plural unique יהוה God." Your claim that he does reflects your personal faith, to which you are of course welcome, but it misstates the contents of the texts.
Jewish religious lawyers and judges, experts on "the text says", had personal choice what to do with truthful words spoken by Jewish Rabbi Jesus: either Worship Jesus as יהוה Lord God OR believe Jesus deserved to die for cursing God. Jewish death penalty for blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16) was the personal choice by those who genuinely believed Jesus could NOT be God (so diety words of Jesus => cursing God from faith belief that no human body could have part of the One plural unique God's spiritual being inside: humans inherit sin nature from Adam & Eve sin choices).
Jesus never claimed to be יהוה Lord God, so the actions the Jewish leaders were without merit, even based on their laws.
Does any being other than God rule the Kingdom of God ? Right hand of power describes authoritatively ruling in the Kingdom of God, consistent with Matthew 28:18 so Matthew 21:23-46 connects Jesus (right hand King-Righteousness ruler in the Kingdom of God) with Lord.
The answer to your question is yes. Any being God authorizes to do so may rule the Kingdom of God. It's clear in Scripture that God authorized the resurrected and exalted Jesus to so rule.
“I, Jesus, sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” (Revelation 22:16 LEB) Psalm 2:6-7 is truthfully consistent with Psalm 132:10-18 God's Son, King, is the anointed one descendant of David....
I appreciate the work you did to assemble this collection of texts, none of which, however, declares that "Son of God" means Jesus was a descendant of David and the Word resided in him. YES, Jesus was a descendant of David. but none of the texts you cited connects his Davidic lineage with his being the Son of God.
Noticed passage summary left out Jesus experiencing God's Glory (John 17:5) & God's Love (John 17:24) before God created out of nothing (only being in existence was God so prayer of Jesus describes two voices in One plural unique God). Puzzled by your text first approach lacking ancient Jewish cultural expressions (as a number of Jewish ways are not explained in Biblical text, simply assumed original audience already knew them). Hence, your view description looks right in your own eyes (just does not "see" multitude of Jewish diety expressions).
I've addressed the pre-existence material on multiple occasions during our exchanges.
Your puzzlement over what you contend is my lack of regard for ancient Jewish cultural expressions doesn't change the fact that you STILL have not cited the verse/passage in which Jesus declared himself to be God. What would have been the single most profound declaration of personal identity in human history, yet Jesus never made it... or at least you can't quote his making it. Perhaps you explain that by referring "ancient Jewish cultural expressions." I explain it by referring to the fact that no verse of passage quotes Jesus as making it.
Observation is your view came across as passive-aggressive personal criticism (especially when you could have agreed with my 'If' statement while expressing your faith belief view change about 'If' statement after your decade of studying so now believe 'If' statement is unsupported).
There was nothing passive-aggressive about my response. You're welcome to your point of view, but in my view, your point of view (as expressed in the "If" clause) is not supported by the biblical text. Because the "if" clause is not supported, the "then" clause is moot.
I've used a similar example before: If 1+1=6, then 1+1+1=9. But the "then" piece of that statement is moot because 1+1 does not equal 6. Your "if" clause - that Jesus and the Father are "One יהוה God" - is not supported by Scripture, so any "then" clause flowing from it is, in my view, moot.
Seems you believe two voices (God The Father & Jesus) provide direction for loving One God. Perplexed by desire to believe Jesus is worthy to be followed & obeyed while believing Jesus is NOT God => disodedience of John 14:1 command by Jesus to be believing in Jesus, same as be believing in God.
In John 14.1, Jesus does not equate believing in him to believing in God. He asks the crowd to believe him in addition to believing in God.
I am willing to believe and follow any voice God authorizes. Jesus is clearly, universally, and eternally a voice God authorizes. Again I ask, how can I show Agape love for God if I'm not willing to follow one whom God authorizes?
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Brethren,
It seems your perspective positions are in hardened spiritual silos. Is it one's presuppositions, a lack of humility, hermeneutics, or a battle of testosterone?
I heard recently that "Christianity is trinitarian". I wonder how this would sit with one who believes otherwise?
Christians are followers of Christ (Messiah-Jesus), disciples. They follow his life and teachings. Can one reject him and still call Him "Lord", friend, "Savior", and "Messiah"?
John 1.1 says, "in the beginning was the Word". This Word was with God "in the beginning" (face-to-face). This alone says that Jesus was not created. The "Word became flesh" (See John 1.14).
If one insists on denying Jesus' Divinity, what is Jesus to them? Can he or she still claim the title, Christian? Wouldn't one be serving or worshipping a demigod? Are we prepare to say all Christians, in general, and anti-trinitarian in particular, worship a demigod, if claiming the title, "Christian"?
Wait a minute, are anti-trinitarian Christian? If not, alright I understand. If they are, do they worship God as God or a demigod? Oops, thinking out loud! CM
PS. Can one have his cake and eat it too?
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@C Mc posted:
It seems your perspective positions are in hardened spiritual silos. Is it one's presuppositions, a lack of humility, hermeneutics, or a battle of testosterone?
Of course another explanation for our siloed views is that we actually believe what we post. I grant that it's hard to turn away from your insightful diagnosis of insufficient humility or excessive testosterone, but in the case of our views, I think @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus and I actually believe what we post.
I heard recently that "Christianity is trinitarian". I wonder how this would sit with one who believes otherwise?
As for the other matters and questions contained in your most recent post in this thread, CM, I'm not going to address them because you have a rather well- and long-established pattern of not responding to my posts, especially the questions I pose to you. It feels like poor stewardship of my forum time to a engage you on the issues and questions you raise when there's no reason to believe you will return the favor. If in fact you WILL engage my responses to you and answer the questions I pose, please say so, and we'll launch a dialogue based on the issues you raised.
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@C Mc I heard recently that "Christianity is trinitarian". I wonder how this would sit with one who believes otherwise?
It simply indicates how ignorant and mass C-theology influenced people are ...
Christians are followers of Christ (Messiah-Jesus), disciples. They follow his life and teachings. Can one reject him and still call Him "Lord", friend, "Savior", and "Messiah"?
The basic problem => Trinitarians do not follow Christ's life and teachings ... they follow later theological apostasy and make their Christ a "God", a "demi-God", "man-God", "God-man", etc.
You provide main example how trinitarian theology interprets Scripture backwards.
If one insists on denying Jesus' Divinity, what is Jesus to them?
Jesus is who the Scriptures declare he is -- not who pagan influenced apostate theologians fabricated him to be centuries later.
Can he or she still claim the title, Christian? Wouldn't one be serving or worshipping a demigod? Are we prepare to say all Christians, in general, and anti-trinitarian in particular, worship a demigod, if claiming the title, "Christian"?
The one's worshiping a "demigod" are those who claim that their Messiah is a "God"
Wait a minute, are anti-trinitarian Christian? If not, alright I understand. If they are, do they worship God as God or a demigod? Oops, thinking out loud! CM
You would have been better off not thinking out loud.
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@Bill_Coley June 19 "Humans can deceive themselves"... when they say "the text says," as I often say in my posts, is an indirect comment about me - a person - not my ideas. So first, I dispute the propriety of your "humans can..." criticism given that in these forums we're to criticize ideas, not people. But more to my point, if you simply MUST tell me that you think I am deceiving myself, then tell me you think I'm deceiving myself. Don't tell me that "humans" who say what I say can deceive themselves.
Simply telling you provides no reason to change.
@Bill_Coley June 19 The best course of action is to criticize ideas, not people. But if that's not a guideline you're willing and/or able to comply with, then at least be direct about your criticisms of people rather than their ideas.
My preference for idea discussion is using third person expression. Second person style tends to implicitly combine person & idea.
Hypothesis: human faith belief intensity typically treats truthful threat to faulty faith belief idea as personal criticism (attack), which is quite challenging for respectful discussion. For theological ideas, like focusing on what "the text says", which includes Biblical word meanings for original author & audience, who were often Jewish. Many Biblical passages assume ancient Jewish cultural understanding so lack explicit text explanation (and translations do not add ancient Jewish cultural background: e.g. John 7:37 "last day of feast"). Numerous ancient Jewish customs have their roots in Torah teachings, which are in the five books of Moses. My basis for truth is Holy God's Word, which is consistent & alive.
As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. * (Proverbs 27:17 LEB * Literally “a man sharpens the faces of his friend” )
Understand this, my dear brothers: every person must be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, for human anger does not accomplish the righteousness of God. Therefore, putting aside all moral uncleanness and wicked excess, welcome with humility the implanted message which is able to save your souls. But be doers of the message and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves, because if anyone is a hearer of the message and not a doer, this one is like someone staring at his own face in a mirror, for he looks at himself and goes away and immediately forgets what sort of person he was. But the one who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues to do it, not being a forgetful hearer but a doer who acts, this one will be blessed in what he does. If anyone thinks he is religious, although he does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is worthless. Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained by the world. (James 1:19-27 LEB)
Please 🙏 pray for me to speak/write Holy God's Truth in Love ❤️ using kind words (human anger does not accomplish Holy Righteousness of God - James 1:19-27) along with actions showing Holy God's Love ❤️ (my genuine intense desire is to: Be Holy as God is Holy => God's Love ❤️)
Thankful can join God in 🙏 praying for many, many people (see faces in my mind), has included CD posters too many times for me to count.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 18 Reason for third person human deception idea is awareness of human nature from Biblical studies (idea simply describes a number of humans).
@Bill_Coley June 19 But in this thread you're engaging only ONE human - me - one who happens to use the phrase "the text says" that shaped the premise of your criticisms of those third person "humans."
My desire is simply expressing Holy God's Truth in Love using kind words. Breath The Holy convicts individual humans about sins against God. Initial premise for "Humans can deceive themselves ..." was idea discussion (from my faith belief view, applicable to more than one CD poster).
Since @theMadJW started thread on May 26 (~4 weeks ago), five CD posters have participated plus aware of some others viewing discussion posts. Active participants have expressed what "the text says" to them for ideas & personal faith beliefs (whether phrase was stated or not). A number of my posts in this thread have quoted more than one CD poster: e.g. my previous posts on this page quoted @Bill_Coley & @Wolfgang
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 18 Puzzled by desire to increase your CD reputation for 'fabella sine argumento' (robbery & murder ideas lack credibility). In contrast is the words of Jesus being truthfully consistent: e.g. teaching about murder in Matthew 5:21-26
@Bill_Coley June 19 The fact that my robbery and murder analogy lacked "credibility" was EXACTLY the point. It was as absurd as your suggestion to me that whether I was one of the "humans" deceiving myself was "an individual decision."
@Bill_Coley "EXACTLY the point." and Michele Pulford's life story are two verifiable factual witnesses for my hypothesis: human faith belief intensity typically treats truthful threat to faulty faith belief idea as personal criticism (attack), which is quite challenging for respectful discussion.
FWIW: if churches can be described as hospitals, then Celebrate Recovery (CR) can be described as Intensive Care Unit (ICU) for our hurts, habits, and hang-ups. First CR lesson includes DENIAL acrostic: Disables our feelings, Energy lost, Negates growth, Isolates us from God, Alienates us from relationships, Lengthens the pain. NIV CR Study Bible includes many testimonies, which have more factual witnesses for my hypothesis.
“Either make the tree good and its fruit is good, or make the tree bad and its fruit is bad, for the tree is known by its fruit. Offspring of vipers! How are you able to say good things when you are evil? For from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good person from his good treasury brings out good things, and the evil person from his evil treasury brings out evil things. But I tell you that every worthless word that they speak, people will give an account for it on the day of judgment! For by your words you will be vindicated, and by your words you will be condemned.” (Matthew 12:33-37 LEB)
Thankful for many personal 12:34 reminders: "For from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks."
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 18 Curious about your "Text First" basis for: explicit connection between his calling himself the disciples' "Lord" and his belief that he was God ?
@Bill_Coley June 19 The text is always the first (and most important) place I go when I want to understand Jesus and his relationship to and with God. It's not the ONLY place I go, but it's always the first one. Where is the FIRST place you go to understand Jesus' relationship to and with God?
FIRST for me is Prayer that God opens my eyes so can behold Holy God's Truth in Biblical context (ancient Jewish culture), then my faith belief (with modern cultural application). Thankul my text learning includes original language expression. English is not Greek nor Hebrew/Aramaic.
Again, what is your "Text First" basis for: explicit connection between Jesus calling himself the disciples' "Lord" and his belief that he was God ? What Old Testament verse(s) provide expectation ideas about how Jewish Rabbi Jesus would express personal faith belief ?
Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted by the devil, and after he had fasted forty days and forty nights, then he was hungry. And the tempter approached and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, order that these stones become bread.” But he answered and said, “It is written, ‘Man will not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes out of the mouth of God.’ ” Then the devil took him to the holy city and placed him on the highest point of the temple and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down! For it is written, ‘He will command his angels concerning you,’ and ‘On their hands they will lift you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’ ” Jesus said to him, “On the other hand it is written, ‘You are not to put the יהוה Lord your God to the test.’ ” Again the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him, “I will give to you all these things, if you will fall down and worship me.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go away, Satan, for it is written, ‘You shall worship the יהוה Lord your God and serve only him.’ ” Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and began ministering to him. (Matthew 4:1-11 LEB)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 18 If believe The Word is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then "the יהוה Lord your God" simply includes Jesus (humble third person expression).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 18 If believe Jesus is NOT God, then what does "the Lord your God" mean ? Why did the devil obey command by Jesus: "Go away, Satan" ?
@Bill_Coley June 19 I encourage you to revisit the temptation scene, for in it I think we find powerful witness as to whether Jesus thinks he's God.
@Bill_Coley June 19 In the third temptation, the devil tells Jesus he can have everything he sees if he only will fall down and worship him (the devil). In response, Jesus says it is written that a person can only worship God. Capture the flow:
@Bill_Coley June 19 * Devil: You can have it all if you will worship me!
@Bill_Coley June 19 * Jesus: I can't worship you because it is written I can only worship God.
@Bill_Coley June 19 I believe that's one of Jesus' most obvious rejections of personal divinity. He COULD have used the moment to assert his divinity, but he didn't; he didn't even hint at it. Instead, he gave every indication that he didn't see himself as God; he saw himself as one commanded by Scripture to worship God.
Repeating question: If believe Jesus is NOT God, Why did the devil obey command by Jesus: "Go away, Satan" ?
To my text reading, the third temptation flow is:
- Devil: You can have it all if you will worship me!
- Jesus: You shall Worship יהוה Lord your God (Father in Holy Heaven & me on earth => we created everything, including all kingdoms)
To me, the devil left in obedience to יהוה Lord your God (on earth) command. Noted the devil's heart has incredibly immense desire to be worshipped (part of the horrendous torment in hell right now, as described by Michele Pulford)
Revelation 22:8-11 describes Angel response to human worship with command to Worship God!
Follow-up question: If believe Jesus is NOT God (saw himself as one commanded by Scripture to worship God), Why did Jesus receive Worship ?
And when he came down from the mountain, large crowds followed him. And behold, a leper approached and worshiped him, saying, “יהוה Lord, if you are willing, you are able to make me clean.” And extending his hand he touched him, saying, “I am willing, be clean.” And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. And Jesus said to him, “See that you tell no one, but go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony to them.” (Matthew 8:1-4 LEB)
And immediately he made the disciples get into the boat and go ahead of him to the other side, while he sent away the crowds. And after he sent away the crowds, he went up on the mountain by himself to pray. So when evening came, he was there alone. But the boat was already many stadia distant from the land, being beaten by the waves, because the wind was against it. And in the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. But the disciples, when they saw him walking on the sea, were terrified, saying, “It is a ghost!” and they cried out in fear. But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Have courage, I am! Do not be afraid!” And Peter answered him and said, “יהוה Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water!” So he said, “Come!” And getting out of the boat, Peter walked on the water and came toward Jesus. But when he saw the strong wind, he was afraid. And beginning to sink, he cried out, saying, “יהוה Lord, save me!” And immediately Jesus extended his hand and caught him and said to him, “You of little faith! Why did you doubt?” And when they got into the boat, the wind abated. So those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God!” (Matthew 14:22-33 LEB sans "he" addition)
So the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated for them. And when they saw him, they worshiped him, but some doubted. And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe everything I have commanded you, and behold, I am with you all the days until the end of the age.” (Matthew 28:16-20 LEB)
εὐθὺς δὲ ἐλάλησεν αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς λέγων· Θαρσεῖτε, ἐγώ εἰμι· μὴ φοβεῖσθε. (Matthew 14:27 SBLGNT) shows Jesus speaking five words:
Θαρσεῖτε, ἐγώ εἰμι· μὴ φοβεῖσθε => Be ye courageous, I AM: not be ye fearing (my literal translation)
If believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then "I AM!" spoken in Matthew 14:27 (in between two commands) has exuberant reaction in every human cell: Attention, your יהוה Lord God is here! => Peter courageously responded to his יהוה Lord God's command.
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then what does "I am" simply identify in between the two commands spoken by Jesus in Matthew 14:27 ?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 16 Why did Jewish hearers of Jewish Rabbi Jesus want to kill Jesus ? Matthew 26:57-68, Mark 14:53-65, Luke 22:66-71, John 8:31-59, John 10:22-39
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 16 What had Jewish Rabbi Jesus said that deserved Jewish death penalty in accordance with Torah teaching (Leviticus 24:10-16) ?
@Bill_Coley June 16 The Leviticus text is about a man who curses/blasphemes the name of God (v.11). I don't see an obvious connection between that text and any of the previous texts you cited, other than the shared word "blasphemes." I see no assertion in the Leviticus text that the man claimed to be "the Son of Man" or "the Son of God," so please demonstrate the relevance of the Leviticus text.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 16 'In succession' answered "What had Jewish Rabbi Jesus said" while providing no reason(s) for Jewish hearers of Jewish Rabbi Jesus to kill Jesus. To me, Jesus is correct about "Son of God" (The Word) being in One plural unique יהוה God.
@Bill_Coley June 16 My summary of each of the texts you cited directly answered the question as to why they wanted to kill Jesus. It was BECAUSE of what they had heard Jesus say or do.
Please provide Biblical verse(s) from the Books of Moses that provide BECAUSE basis for Jewish Rabbi Jesus to be put to death for words spoken.
@Bill_Coley June 16 At no time in any of those texts does Jesus claim to be part of "One plural unique יהוה God." Your claim that he does reflects your personal faith, to which you are of course welcome, but it misstates the contents of the texts.
My faith belief claim about text content is based on ancient Jewish diety expressions spoken by Jewish Rabbi Jesus, which are easier to see & appreciate in original language Biblical texts and Greek Septuagint translation of Hebrew/Aramaic Bible (a couple centuries before Jesus). Am still amazed by Jewish religious lawyers and judges clearly understanding Jewish diety expressions spoken by Jesus, but deliberately refusing to believe truthful words so they believed Jewish Rabbi Jesus had cursed God => Jesus should be put to death for blasphemy per Leviticus 24:10-16
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 18 Jewish religious lawyers and judges, experts on "the text says", had personal choice what to do with truthful words spoken by Jewish Rabbi Jesus: either Worship Jesus as יהוה Lord God OR believe Jesus deserved to die for cursing God. Jewish death penalty for blasphemy (Leviticus 24:10-16) was the personal choice by those who genuinely believed Jesus could NOT be God (so diety words of Jesus => cursing God from faith belief that no human body could have part of the One plural unique God's spiritual being inside: humans inherit sin nature from Adam & Eve sin choices).
@Bill_Coley June 19 Jesus never claimed to be יהוה Lord God, so the actions the Jewish leaders were without merit, even based on their laws.
We disagree what the text says Jewish Rabbi Jesus expressed about who Jesus truly is being. Basis for blasphemy death penalty are ancient Jewish diety expressions spoken by Jewish Rabbi Jesus. As the text says, Jewish religious lawyers and judges wanted Jesus to die for blasphemy.
FYI: one aspect of trial misjustice was meeting at night so the "official" blasphemy death penalty was done "when day came ..." Luke 22:66-71
FWIW: working on the Sabbath has death penalty in Exodus 31:12-17 so if two OR three witnesses had agreed about Jesus working on the Sabbath, then that could have been the Jewish death penalty. Jewish religious lawyers and judges knew all the death penalties in Torah teachings.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 18 “I, Jesus, sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” (Revelation 22:16 LEB) Psalm 2:6-7 is truthfully consistent with Psalm 132:10-18 God's Son, King, is the anointed one descendant of David....
@Bill_Coley June 19 I appreciate the work you did to assemble this collection of texts, none of which, however, declares that "Son of God" means Jesus was a descendant of David and the Word resided in him. YES, Jesus was a descendant of David. but none of the texts you cited connects his Davidic lineage with his being the Son of God.
In Revelation 22:16, what does phrase "I am the root and the descendant of David" mean ? Note: καὶ (and,even,also) connects root & descendant
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 18 Noticed passage summary left out Jesus experiencing God's Glory (John 17:5) & God's Love (John 17:24) before God created out of nothing (only being in existence was God so prayer of Jesus describes two voices in One plural unique God). Puzzled by your text first approach lacking ancient Jewish cultural expressions (as a number of Jewish ways are not explained in Biblical text, simply assumed original audience already knew them). Hence, your view description looks right in your own eyes (just does not "see" multitude of Jewish diety expressions).
@Bill_Coley June 19 I've addressed the pre-existence material on multiple occasions during our exchanges.
How goes your pre-existence Bible study ?
@Bill_Coley June 19 Your puzzlement over what you contend is my lack of regard for ancient Jewish cultural expressions doesn't change the fact that you STILL have not cited the verse/passage in which Jesus declared himself to be God. What would have been the single most profound declaration of personal identity in human history, yet Jesus never made it... or at least you can't quote his making it. Perhaps you explain that by referring "ancient Jewish cultural expressions." I explain it by referring to the fact that no verse of passage quotes Jesus as making it.
Appears your 'text first' approach has a hidden hermeneutic filter for Biblical text => modern English cultural identification is expected from modern English translation of ancient Jewish cultural writing. In places, original language idiomatic wording is quite awkward in English along with verbal action being vastly different: e.g. Hebrew => Kind, Koine Greek => Kind & Time, English => Time. Common cultural experience for ancient Biblical writers and audience were assumed for Biblical text => troublesome to translate centuries later. Fast pace modern lifestyle is drastically divergent from Biblical writers. Contrast is God's Spiritual nature being the same yesterday, today, & forever. Humans choosing to repent from their sin to truly Love ❤️ God first continue to experience amazing transformations.
Researching what God said in Lexham Hebrew Bible text:
Morph Search root:אֱלֹהִים INTERSECTS <LogosMorphHeb ~ N??S??> INTERSECTS {Speaker <Person God>} finds 4 verses: elohe (singular)
Morph Search root:אֱלֹהִים INTERSECTS <LogosMorphHeb ~ N??P??> INTERSECTS {Speaker <Person God>} finds 343 verses: elohim (plural)
Two Biblical passages have both elohe (singular) and elohim (plural) spoken by God:
But to the wicked God (elohim) says, “What right have you to recite my statutes and mention my covenant with your mouth, while you yourself hate discipline, and cast my words behind you? When you see a thief, then you are pleased with him, and your association is with adulterers. You give your mouth free rein for evil, and you harness your tongue to deceit. You sit and speak against your brother; you slander your mother’s son. These things you have done, and I have been silent; You imagined that I was just like you. I will rebuke you and present an argument before your eyes. Now consider this, you who forget God (elohe), lest I tear you apart, and there will be none to deliver. He who sacrifices a thank offering honors me, and he who orders his way; I will show him the salvation of God (elohim).” (Psalm 50:16-23 LEB)
Thus says יהוה Yahweh, the king of Israel, and its redeemer, יהוה Yahweh of hosts: “I am the first, and I am the last, and there is no god (elohim) besides me. And who is like me? Let him proclaim it! And let him declare it and set it in order for me since I established an eternal people and things that are to come, and let them tell them the things that are coming. You must not tremble, and you must not be paralyzed with fear. Have I not made you hear from of old and declared it, and you are my witnesses? Is there a god (elohe) besides me? And there is no rock! I know none!” (Isaiah 44:6-8 LEB)
Who is the redeemer, יהוה Yahweh of hosts ? Yehoshua יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Jesus) name means יהוה Yahweh Salvation.
Isaiah 44:6 text has two subjects: "יהוה Yahweh, the king of Israel, and its redeemer, יהוה Yahweh of hosts" saying: "I am the first, and I am the last, and there is no god (elohim) besides me. ..." so the text to me shows One plural unique God, centuries before The Word (quality being God) left heaven to take on human body, as planned for יהוה Yahweh Salvation. Revelation 22:13 (I spoken by Jesus) is truthfully consistent with Isaiah 44:6
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 18 Seems you believe two voices (God The Father & Jesus) provide direction for loving One God. Perplexed by desire to believe Jesus is worthy to be followed & obeyed while believing Jesus is NOT God => disodedience of John 14:1 command by Jesus to be believing in Jesus, same as be believing in God.
@Bill_Coley June 19 In John 14.1, Jesus does not equate believing in him to believing in God. He asks the crowd to believe him in addition to believing in God.
Puzzling text addition idea as Koine Greek text has the same words for believing in God as believing in Jesus: same verb & same preposition (direction for belief). Only difference is object of belief: The God and/also Jesus (me). The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament does not show "in addition to" as a καὶ translation in the Greek New Testament. John 14:1crowd is Jewish disciples of Jesus at the last supper.
πιστεύετε εἰς τὸν θεόν, καὶ εἰς ἐμὲ πιστεύετε. => be ye believing to (in) The God, and/also to (in) Me be ye believing (my literal translation)
My June 7 post in this thread has my initial literal translation (had 'also' for καὶ), which has expanded Greek insights in June 8 post.
@Bill_Coley June 19 I am willing to believe and follow any voice God authorizes. Jesus is clearly, universally, and eternally a voice God authorizes. Again I ask, how can I show Agape love for God if I'm not willing to follow one whom God authorizes?
How can one truly follow & obey Jesus without elevating Jesus to being יהוה Lord God in one's life ?
If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. (John 14:14 LEB) How can Jesus not be God for answering prayers to God in the name of Jesus ?
@Bill_Coley June 19 ... I think @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus and I actually believe what we post.
Concur.
Honestly have no idea what the phrase "Christianity is trinitarian" means: only "is" is found in Biblical texts.
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Active participants have expressed what "the text says" to them for ideas & personal faith beliefs (whether phrase was stated or not).
We see ... When you propagate your personal faith belief without support of what the text says, you express your "Holy God, Holy Breath message in kind words", but when others point out what Scripture text in fact says, they are propagating their "private idea personal belief " ???
How can one truly follow & obey Jesus without elevating Jesus to being יהוה Lord God in one's life ?
By simple plain logic and reason, the one who elevates (that is, who adds to and makes) Jesus into more than he is, is NOT truly following nor obeying Jesus.
In addition, the one adding a second being to also be God (cp. your "יהוה Lord God") contradicts flat out the truth that God is only ONE (not two, three, or more) individual single living being, which the Scripture text testifies all over. Your personal faith idea of "יהוה Lord God" adds "God" to the word "lord" that is actually used in the text.
If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. (John 14:14 LEB) How can Jesus not be God for answering prayers to God in the name of Jesus ?
Thinking and more carefully considering what the text actually says, without your personal faith belief of Jesus being part of a Scripturally non-existing "plural unified God" clouding your reading, could lead to a proper understanding of the text instead of inventing an idea that is contradictory to the Scriptures overall.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
Simply telling you provides no reason to change.
My point to you is that your observations about how "humans" can deceive themselves also "provides no reason to change."
My preference for idea discussion is using third person expression. Second person style tends to implicitly combine person & idea.
References to what "humans" can do no less implicitly combine "person & idea;" in fact, they explicitly do so. For example, what's the subject of your sentence, "Humans can use phrase 'the text says' to deceive themselves about what 'the text says'...."? Humans - people - not their ideas.
Hypothesis: human faith belief intensity typically treats truthful threat to faulty faith belief idea as personal criticism (attack), which is quite challenging for respectful discussion.
Ultimately, we can't control what others receive as a personal attack, but we CAN - and, according to CD forum expectations, SHOULD - control how we state our disagreements with them. If you receive my declaration that "I disagree with your contention that XYZ" as a personal attack, that's on you because the subject of my critique - and this is basic elementary school grammar - was "your contention," not you personally. On the other hand, if I respond to your contention by writing, "Humans can deceive themselves by believing XYZ," then it's on me because the subject of my critique is no longer your contention, but rather "humans," which, of course, is a reference to you, not your contention.
If you seek genuinely "respectful discussion," then simply comply with the CD expectation that we will "criticize ideas, not people."
For theological ideas, like focusing on what "the text says", which includes Biblical word meanings for original author & audience, who were often Jewish. Many Biblical passages assume ancient Jewish cultural understanding so lack explicit text explanation (and translations do not add ancient Jewish cultural background: e.g. John 7:37 "last day of feast"). Numerous ancient Jewish customs have their roots in Torah teachings, which are in the five books of Moses. My basis for truth is Holy God's Word, which is consistent & alive.
I welcome you to the hermeneutical principles of your choosing.
Please 🙏 pray for me to speak/write Holy God's Truth in Love ❤️ using kind words (human anger does not accomplish Holy Righteousness of God - James 1:19-27) along with actions showing Holy God's Love ❤️ (my genuine intense desire is to: Be Holy as God is Holy => God's Love ❤️)
Thankful can join God in 🙏 praying for many, many people (see faces in my mind), has included CD posters too many times for me to count.
I pray that you will decide to comply with the CD expectation that we will "criticize ideas, not people."
My desire is simply expressing Holy God's Truth in Love using kind words. Breath The Holy convicts individual humans about sins against God. Initial premise for "Humans can deceive themselves ..." was idea discussion (from my faith belief view, applicable to more than one CD poster).
Whether intended to refer to one or many posters, criticisms of people rather than their ideas violate the CD expectation that we will "criticize ideas, not people."
@Bill_Coley "EXACTLY the point." and Michele Pulford's life story are two verifiable factual witnesses for my hypothesis: human faith belief intensity typically treats truthful threat to faulty faith belief idea as personal criticism (attack), which is quite challenging for respectful discussion.
As I wrote in my previous post, I'm not Michele, and our stories share little in common. That said, the CD expectation is not hard to understand or implement once we choose to do so: Criticize ideas, not people.
FWIW: if churches can be described as hospitals, then Celebrate Recovery (CR) can be described as Intensive Care Unit (ICU) for our hurts, habits, and hang-ups. First CR lesson includes DENIAL acrostic: Disables our feelings, Energy lost, Negates growth, Isolates us from God, Alienates us from relationships, Lengthens the pain. NIV CR Study Bible includes many testimonies, which have more factual witnesses for my hypothesis.
CD is not a church established to effect recovery from "hurts, habits, and hang-ups." It's a "go-to place for respectful online theological discussion" whose expectation is that participants will "criticize ideas, not people."
FIRST for me is Prayer that God opens my eyes so can behold Holy God's Truth in Biblical context (ancient Jewish culture), then my faith belief (with modern cultural application). Thankul my text learning includes original language expression. English is not Greek nor Hebrew/Aramaic.
I respect your reference to both spiritual (prayer) and practical ("text learning") dimensions of your engagement with the biblical text.
Again, what is your "Text First" basis for: explicit connection between Jesus calling himself the disciples' "Lord" and his belief that he was God ? What Old Testament verse(s) provide expectation ideas about how Jewish Rabbi Jesus would express personal faith belief ?
If Jesus never connected deity to his assertion that he was his disciples' "Lord," - and he didn't - I think that's significant. A claim of personal deity would have been among the most profound possible assertions of self for Jesus. If ANYTHING he ever declared about himself would have appeared in the biblical text, it would have been that. But it's not there... I contend, because he never made such a declaration.
Repeating question: If believe Jesus is NOT God, Why did the devil obey command by Jesus: "Go away, Satan" ?
According to Luke's account, Satan left because he had "completed every temptation" (Luke 4.13, LEB). Matthew's account includes Jesus' command for Satan to leave, but does not ascribe deity implications to said command.
To my text reading, the third temptation flow is:
Devil: You can have it all if you will worship me!
Jesus: You shall Worship Lord your God (Father in Holy Heaven & me on earth => we created everything, including all kingdoms)
To my reading of it, the temptation narrative neither declares nor presumes Jesus' deity. In my view, there is no textual support for your view.
Revelation 22:8-11 describes Angel response to human worship with command to Worship God!
The angel deserved no credit for the visions he had given to John the Revelator, but God did. Hence, worship God, not me, the angel commanded.
Follow-up question: If believe Jesus is NOT God (saw himself as one commanded by Scripture to worship God), Why did Jesus receive Worship ?
We've been down this road many, many, many times in our exchanges. My view hasn't changed: Worship is more than an assent to a being's deity.
- The wisemen traveled to Bethlehem to "worship" one they believed was "the newborn King of the Jews," not God (Matthew 2.2)
- 1 Peter 3.15 commands that we worship/revere/sanctify, depending on the translation, Christ as the Lord of our lives; it does NOT direct us to worship Christ as God.
If believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then "I AM!" spoken in Matthew 14:27 (in between two commands) has exuberant reaction in every human cell: Attention, your יהוה Lord God is here! => Peter courageously responded to his יהוה Lord God's command.
This is another of your "If I'm right, then I'm right" tautologies, the principle challenge to most of them - including this one - being that their "if" clauses are usually not true. False "if" clauses render their respective "then" clauses moot. AGAIN, the "then" clause of "If 1+1+1=6, then 1+1+1=9" is moot because its "if" clause is false. It just doesn't matter that 1+1+1 might equal 9 if such an assertion is grounded in the claim that 1+1=6. Why? Because 1+1 does NOT equal 6.
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then what does "I am" simply identify in between the two commands spoken by Jesus in Matthew 14:27 ?
In the text, the disciples believe they're seeing a ghost (Matthew 14.26). Jesus' declaration, then, is simply an assurance that they're seeing him, not a ghost. There is nothing in the exchange to suggest that Jesus declares personal divinity.
Please provide Biblical verse(s) from the Books of Moses that provide BECAUSE basis for Jewish Rabbi Jesus to be put to death for words spoken.
You asked why in each of several texts Jewish leaders wanted to put Jesus to death. Using those texts, I reported the rationale in each case. You've contended (and I've disputed) that Leviticus 24.10-16 is relevant. I'm not going try to read the Jewish leaders' minds as to on which texts, if any, their cries for Jesus' execution relied.
My faith belief claim about text content is based on ancient Jewish diety expressions spoken by Jewish Rabbi Jesus, which are easier to see & appreciate in original language Biblical texts and Greek Septuagint translation of Hebrew/Aramaic Bible (a couple centuries before Jesus). Am still amazed by Jewish religious lawyers and judges clearly understanding Jewish diety expressions spoken by Jesus, but deliberately refusing to believe truthful words so they believed Jewish Rabbi Jesus had cursed God => Jesus should be put to death for blasphemy per Leviticus 24:10-16
And I welcome you to your views.
We disagree what the text says Jewish Rabbi Jesus expressed about who Jesus truly is being. Basis for blasphemy death penalty are ancient Jewish diety expressions spoken by Jewish Rabbi Jesus. As the text says, Jewish religious lawyers and judges wanted Jesus to die for blasphemy.
As I have pointed out countless times in our exchanges, the fact that religious leaders accused Jesus of blasphemy, or believed Jesus had declared himself to be God, does NOT mean Jesus had actually committed blasphemy or had actually declared himself to be God. The religious leaders were wrong.
FWIW: working on the Sabbath has death penalty in Exodus 31:12-17 so if two OR three witnesses had agreed about Jesus working on the Sabbath, then that could have been the Jewish death penalty. Jewish religious lawyers and judges knew all the death penalties in Torah teachings.
That they knew the penalties doesn't guarantee they applied those penalties correctly in any particular case. For example, they didn't press for the disciples' executions after witnessing their breaking off grain heads in a field on the Sabbath (Luke 6.1-5).
In Revelation 22:16, what does phrase "I am the root and the descendant of David" mean ? Note: καὶ (and,even,also) connects root & descendant
Of course "root" means descendant; I said just that in my previous post. My point was that the Revelation verse does not show the title "Son of God" means Jesus was a descendant of David and the Word resided in him, as was your previous contention.
How goes your pre-existence Bible study ?
As with all aspects of my faith journey, it's a work in progress. The 84 hours I've spent to-date with my Sunday group in our review, so far, of more than 330 New Testament passages relevant to the issue of Jesus' deity, has raised the pre-existence material to prominence. Neither I nor any member of our study group has finalized our view of that material because we still have about 100 NT passages and a diverse collection of OT passages to review. I'll get back to you.
Appears your 'text first' approach has a hidden hermeneutic filter for Biblical text => modern English cultural identification is expected from modern English translation of ancient Jewish cultural writing. In places, original language idiomatic wording is quite awkward in English along with verbal action being vastly different: e.g. Hebrew => Kind, Koine Greek => Kind & Time, English => Time. Common cultural experience for ancient Biblical writers and audience were assumed for Biblical text => troublesome to translate centuries later. Fast pace modern lifestyle is drastically divergent from Biblical writers. Contrast is God's Spiritual nature being the same yesterday, today, & forever. Humans choosing to repent from their sin to truly Love ❤️ God first continue to experience amazing transformations.
The existence or absence of hidden hermeneutical filters in my approach to the biblical text doesn't change the fact that there is not text in which Jesus claims to be God.
Researching what God said in Lexham Hebrew Bible text:
Morph Search root:אֱלֹהִים INTERSECTS <LogosMorphHeb ~ N??S??> INTERSECTS {Speaker <Person God>} finds 4 verses: elohe (singular)
Morph Search root:אֱלֹהִים INTERSECTS <LogosMorphHeb ~ N??P??> INTERSECTS {Speaker <Person God>} finds 343 verses: elohim (plural)
We've been down the "elohim" road countless times over the course of our exchanges. I can't add to what I've said so many times in my replies.
Puzzling text addition idea as Koine Greek text has the same words for believing in God as believing in Jesus: same verb & same preposition (direction for belief). Only difference is object of belief: The God and/also Jesus (me). The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament does not show "in addition to" as a καὶ translation in the Greek New Testament. John 14:1crowd is Jewish disciples of Jesus at the last supper.
That John uses the same word for "believe" in John 14.1 doesn't strike me as consequential. Paul uses the same basic Greek word to tell the Corinthians he believes, to some extent, reports of divisions among them (1 Corinthians 11.18). He certainly wasn't declaring belief in their divinity. He, as did Jesus, simply asked them to believe.
I didn't claim the words "in addition to" are in the text. I claimed such is the meaning of the text in context. Had Jesus wanted to declare personal divinity, he could have said, "You believe in God. Since I'm God, that means you also believe in me." But Jesus didn't say that or anything resembling that.
How can one truly follow & obey Jesus without elevating Jesus to being יהוה Lord God in one's life ?
Because God authorizes Jesus as one I am to follow and obey. For the third time I ask: How can I show Agape love for God if I don't follow and obey the one God authorizes for me to follow and obey?
If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. (John 14:14 LEB) How can Jesus not be God for answering prayers to God in the name of Jesus ?
In John 16 Jesus amplifies what he means by asking for things in his name.
- John 16.23: Soon the disciples won't have to ask Jesus for anything because they will "ask the Father directly," and the Father will "grant your request because you use my name."
- John 16.24,26: The disciples are to ask using Jesus' name, a suggestion, in context, that the disciples are to ask God, but to make their requests using Jesus' name.
Then there's Jesus' teaching on the power of persistence in prayer (Luke 11.5-13) in which there is no suggestion that Jesus fulfills prayer requests. Matthew's account of the same teaching (Matthew 7.7-11) doesn't include the requests for loaves of bread with which Luke introduces it. Matthew frames the conclusion of Jesus' teaching as to refer to the "good gifts" the Father gives to those who ask the Father (Matthew 7.11); he, Jesus, has no reported role in the disbursement of those gifts.
Hence, I don't think it's clear what prayer fulfillment role for himself Jesus means to convey in John 14.14.
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@Wolfgang June 11 I suggest you finally take a more careful look at Exo 3:14 (cp. 3 simple to read and understand versions for starters) from LXX and understand why the 3 uses of the Hebrew word were translated differently:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 Only Exodus 3:14 in LXX has ὁ ὤν translation for words spoken by God.
Taking another look at Exodus 3:14 " Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν·" translated as " I am the One who exists. " in Lexham English Septuagint
Ἐγώ => Pronoun, personal, 1st person, nominative, singular => I
εἰμι => Verb, present, active, indicative, 1st person, singular => I am being (Greek present tense is continuous action in present time)
ὁ => Article, nominative, singular, masculine => the (translation of Hebrew אֲשֶׁ֣ר that conjuction)
ὤν => Verb, present, active, participle, nominative, singular, masculine => I am being (Greek participle of εἰμι "to be" is a verbal noun)
אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה => Verb, Qal, yiqtōl (imperfect), 1st person, singular => I was, I am, I will be (Hebrew imperfect: "to exist" continuous action)
יהוה => Verb, Qal, yiqtōl (imperfect), 3rd person, singular => God was, God is, God will be (Holy God inspired 1st to 3rd person shift)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 16 Jewish Rabbi Jesus lived in a culture where Jewish Religious leaders were interpreting & applying 613 Mitzvot (commands) in Torah to daily living.
@Wolfgang June 16 Jesus was NOT a Jewish Rabbi.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 18 Please provide two OR three verifiable witnesses for idea: "Jesus was NOT a Jewish Rabbi."
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 18 What Jews called Jesus Rabbi OR Rabboni ? Logos Bible Search for <Root = lbs/el/ραββι> finds 17 verses, with 15 of them => Jewish Rabbi Jesus
Curious about two OR three verifiable witnesses for idea: "Jesus was NOT a Jewish Rabbi."
@Wolfgang June 16 Reading your ideas about these Jewish ideas reveals why you rejects simple and plain words inspired of God in favor of your non-biblical church denominational traditions.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 18 Puzzling rejection idea: curious about verifiable church denominational tradition witnesses ? (not knowingly posting for any church denomination)
Still curious what non-biblical church denominational tradition(s) appear to be in my posted idea(s).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 ... Active participants have expressed what "the text says" to them for ideas & personal faith beliefs (whether phrase was stated or not). ...
@Wolfgang June 21 We see ... When you propagate your personal faith belief without support of what the text says, you express your "Holy God, Holy Breath message in kind words", but when others point out what Scripture text in fact says, they are propagating their "private idea personal belief " ???
Thankful Holy God will righteously reward the words (ideas) & the deeds flowing out of human hearts (Matthew 12:33-37) Every human (myself included) has a personal faith belief frame of reference ideas for "seeing" what Scripture text says. Caution is being aware of human heart deceitfulness (Isaiah 59:9-15, Jeremiah 17:5-11), personally trying to avoid deception idea(s) appearing as "fact" in Scripture text.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 How can one truly follow & obey Jesus without elevating Jesus to being יהוה Lord God in one's life ?
@Wolfgang June 21 By simple plain logic and reason, the one who elevates (that is, who adds to and makes) Jesus into more than he is, is NOT truly following nor obeying Jesus.
John 14:1 text says => be ye believing to (in) The God, and/also to (in) Me be ye believing (my literal translation, 'to (in)' for εἰς preposition)
Jesus uses same verbal command (be ye believing) and same preposition εἰς for disciples. Hence truly obeying Jesus is believing to (in) Jesus, same as believing to (in) The God. To me, idea of truly obeying Jesus elevates Jesus to being יהוה Lord God in one's life: e.g. 1 Peter 3:13-22
@Wolfgang June 21 In addition, the one adding a second being to also be God (cp. your "יהוה Lord God") contradicts flat out the truth that God is only ONE (not two, three, or more) individual single living being, which the Scripture text testifies all over. Your personal faith idea of "יהוה Lord God" adds "God" to the word "lord" that is actually used in the text.
From my view, faith belief idea "God is only ONE (not two, three, or more) individual single living being" does not quite describe the One plural unique God Being who I truly Love ❤️ (One God Spiritual Being uniquely has three distinct voices in One God's Love ❤️ commUnity: two voices have Image of God bodily forms while intimately being One God).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it. (John 14:14 LEB) How can Jesus not be God for answering prayers to God in the name of Jesus ?
@Wolfgang June 21 Thinking and more carefully considering what the text actually says, without your personal faith belief of Jesus being part of a Scripturally non-existing "plural unified God" clouding your reading, could lead to a proper understanding of the text instead of inventing an idea that is contradictory to the Scriptures overall.
Concur our faith belief ideas concerning Scripture disagree about who Jesus truly is. Caution for careful human idea thinking is deceitfulness of human heart (Isaiah 59:9-15, Jeremiah 17:5-11) to rationalize away what the text simply says (desire to make "text" align into personal faith belief frame of reference ideas instead of aligning personal faith belief with Holy God's inspired text).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 My preference for idea discussion is using third person expression. Second person style tends to implicitly combine person & idea.
@Bill_Coley June 21 References to what "humans" can do no less implicitly combine "person & idea;" in fact, they explicitly do so. For example, what's the subject of your sentence, "Humans can use phrase 'the text says' to deceive themselves about what 'the text says'...."? Humans - people - not their ideas.
Human ideas expressed using phrase 'the text says' may include deceptive idea(s) about what 'the text says'.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 For theological ideas, like focusing on what "the text says", which includes Biblical word meanings for original author & audience, who were often Jewish. Many Biblical passages assume ancient Jewish cultural understanding so lack explicit text explanation (and translations do not add ancient Jewish cultural background: e.g. John 7:37 "last day of feast"). Numerous ancient Jewish customs have their roots in Torah teachings, which are in the five books of Moses. My basis for truth is Holy God's Word, which is consistent & alive.
@Bill_Coley June 21 I welcome you to the hermeneutical principles of your choosing.
Curious about 'welcome you' idea ? (reads to me as your dismissal of my Jewish cultural understanding idea for what "the text says")
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 Again, what is your "Text First" basis for: explicit connection between Jesus calling himself the disciples' "Lord" and his belief that he was God ? What Old Testament verse(s) provide expectation ideas about how Jewish Rabbi Jesus would express personal faith belief ?
@Bill_Coley June 21 If Jesus never connected deity to his assertion that he was his disciples' "Lord," - and he didn't - I think that's significant. A claim of personal deity would have been among the most profound possible assertions of self for Jesus. If ANYTHING he ever declared about himself would have appeared in the biblical text, it would have been that. But it's not there... I contend, because he never made such a declaration.
Please provide Old Testament verse(s) for ideas about how Jewish Rabbi Jesus would express personal faith belief.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 Repeating question: If believe Jesus is NOT God, Why did the devil obey command by Jesus: "Go away, Satan" ?
@Bill_Coley June 21 According to Luke's account, Satan left because he had "completed every temptation" (Luke 4.13, LEB). Matthew's account includes Jesus' command for Satan to leave, but does not ascribe deity implications to said command.
Luke's account does not mention nor explain Matthew's account of the devil obeying Jesus. The idea '..., but does not ascribe deity implications to said command' simply does not explain why the devil obeyed Jesus.
For the third time: If believe Jesus is NOT God, Why did the devil obey command by Jesus: "Go away, Satan" ? (Matthew 4:10-11)
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then the devil obeyed command of יהוה Lord God, who is Holy King over the devil.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 To my text reading, the third temptation flow is:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 Devil: You can have it all if you will worship me!
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 Jesus: You shall Worship יהוה Lord your God (Father in Holy Heaven & me on earth => we created everything, including all kingdoms)
@Bill_Coley June 21 To my reading of it, the temptation narrative neither declares nor presumes Jesus' deity. In my view, there is no textual support for your view.
To me, idea 'there is no textual support for your view.' appears to be an appeal to an unnamed authority (lacks Biblical text credibility for me).
@Bill_Coley June 19 * Jesus: I can't worship you because it is written I can only worship God.
June 19 reading embeds pre-existing faith belief idea about Jesus NOT being God into what "the text says". My June 20 reading also embeds my pre-exisiting faith belief idea about who Jesus is. Both of us believe the Biblical text supports our faith belief ideas (from our Biblical text studies).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 Follow-up question: If believe Jesus is NOT God (saw himself as one commanded by Scripture to worship God), Why did Jesus receive Worship ?
@Bill_Coley June 19 We've been down this road many, many, many times in our exchanges. My view hasn't changed: Worship is more than an assent to a being's deity.
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then is Jesus a hypocrite (sinner) about receiving worship ? (especially "My Lord and My God!" in John 20:28)
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then Jesus receiving Worship is appropriate & expected (Philippians 2:5-11)
@Bill_Coley June 19 * The wisemen traveled to Bethlehem to "worship" one they believed was "the newborn King of the Jews," not God (Matthew 2.2)
Quoting start of Micah 5:2 (in Matthew 2:6) should bring more Biblical context to mind => But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, too small to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go out for me, to be ruler in Israel; and his origins are from of old, from ancient days. Therefore he will give them up until the time of she who is with child has given birth. And the rest of his brothers will return to the children of Israel. And he will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of יהוה Yahweh, in the majesty of the name of יהוה Yahweh his God. And they will live, for now he will be great unto the ends of the earth. And this one will be peace. As for the Assyrian, when he comes into our land and when he treads on our fortresses, then we will raise up against him seven shepherds and eight leaders of men. (Micah 5:2-5 LEB), which truthfully agrees with Jesus saying => “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. (John 10:11 LEB)
If believe Jesus is NOT God & only God is Good per Luke 18:18-30, then why did Jesus say: "I am the Good Shepherd" ? Jesus = God Shepherd ?
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then Jesus saying “I am the good shepherd." = God Shepherd (truly consistent).
@Bill_Coley June 19 * 1 Peter 3.15 commands that we worship/revere/sanctify, depending on the translation, Christ as the Lord of our lives; it does NOT direct us to worship Christ as God.
My reading of 1 Peter 3:15 => but set Christ apart as יהוה Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense to anyone who asks you for an accounting concerning the hope that is in you. (LEB with Jewish understanding: Lord => κύριος => Adonai => יהוה thousands of times every year, including twice daily repetition of The Shema => Hear & Obey Israel, יהוה Lord our God יהוה Lord unique, ...).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 If believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then "I AM!" spoken in Matthew 14:27 (in between two commands) has exuberant reaction in every human cell: Attention, your יהוה Lord God is here! => Peter courageously responded to his יהוה Lord God's command.
@Bill_Coley June 19 This is another of your "If I'm right, then I'm right" tautologies, the principle challenge to most of them - including this one - being that their "if" clauses are usually not true. False "if" clauses render their respective "then" clauses moot. AGAIN, the "then" clause of "If 1+1+1=6, then 1+1+1=9" is moot because its "if" clause is false. It just doesn't matter that 1+1+1 might equal 9 if such an assertion is grounded in the claim that 1+1=6. Why? Because 1+1 does NOT equal 6.
Notably missing for respectful Theological idea discussion is any Biblical text idea(s) for my "if" condition being false. We agree about then clause being moot when "if" condition is false. My "if" condition is based on what "original language text says" (specifically includes Deuteronomy 6:4, John 10:30, John 1:1-18). Puzzled by idea assertion: 'being that their "if" clauses are usually not true' since am now writing two "if" statements to show our faith belief ideas in a contrasting way for comparison.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 If believe Jesus is NOT God, then what does "I am" simply identify in between the two commands spoken by Jesus in Matthew 14:27 ?
@Bill_Coley June 19 In the text, the disciples believe they're seeing a ghost (Matthew 14.26). Jesus' declaration, then, is simply an assurance that they're seeing him, not a ghost. There is nothing in the exchange to suggest that Jesus declares personal divinity.
Only two words "I am" in Matthew 14:27 text identify Jesus as the one walking on stormy water faster than the boat carrying disciples. Looking at the text: (Disciples) "It is a ghost!" => (Jesus) "I am!" (in between two commands: Be ye courageous, I AM: not be ye fearing).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 Please provide Biblical verse(s) from the Books of Moses that provide BECAUSE basis for Jewish Rabbi Jesus to be put to death for words spoken.
@Bill_Coley June 19 You asked why in each of several texts Jewish leaders wanted to put Jesus to death. Using those texts, I reported the rationale in each case. You've contended (and I've disputed) that Leviticus 24.10-16 is relevant. I'm not going try to read the Jewish leaders' minds as to on which texts, if any, their cries for Jesus' execution relied.
The Jews replied to him, “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself out to be the Son of God!” (John 19:7 LEB) that is truly consistent with Leviticus 24.10-16 for Jewish law => blasphemy death penalty from clearly hearing diety words spoken by Jesus.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 We disagree what the text says Jewish Rabbi Jesus expressed about who Jesus truly is being. Basis for blasphemy death penalty are ancient Jewish diety expressions spoken by Jewish Rabbi Jesus. As the text says, Jewish religious lawyers and judges wanted Jesus to die for blasphemy.
@Bill_Coley June 19 As I have pointed out countless times in our exchanges, the fact that religious leaders accused Jesus of blasphemy, or believed Jesus had declared himself to be God, does NOT mean Jesus had actually committed blasphemy or had actually declared himself to be God. The religious leaders were wrong.
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then idea 'The religious leaders were wrong.' implies Biblical text inspired by God has wrong words => Is God a liar ?
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then blasphemy describes Jewish religious leader reaction to ancient Jewish diety identity expressions spoken by Jewish Rabbi Jesus. Matthew 26:57-68, Mark 14:53-65, Luke 22:66-71, John 8:31-59, John 10:22-39
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 Puzzling text addition idea as Koine Greek text has the same words for believing in God as believing in Jesus: same verb & same preposition (direction for belief). Only difference is object of belief: The God and/also Jesus (me). The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament does not show "in addition to" as a καὶ translation in the Greek New Testament. John 14:1 crowd is Jewish disciples of Jesus at the last supper.
@Bill_Coley June 19 That John uses the same word for "believe" in John 14.1 doesn't strike me as consequential. Paul uses the same basic Greek word to tell the Corinthians he believes, to some extent, reports of divisions among them (1 Corinthians 11.18). He certainly wasn't declaring belief in their divinity. He, as did Jesus, simply asked them to believe.
Bible Search for <Root = lbs/el/πιστευω> in SBLGNT finds 527 verses. Noticed 1 Corithians 11:18 does not have εἰς preposition for object of faith.
Bible Search for <Root = lbs/el/πιστευω> WITHIN 2 WORDS <Lemma = lbs/el/εἰς> finds 57 verses (includes John 14:1, but not 1 Corinthians 11:18)
Morph Search for <Lemma = lbs/el/εἰς> WITHIN 2 WORDS root:πιστευω@V??M in SBLGNT finds two verses: BELIEVE command with εἰς object:
While you have the light, BELIEVE in the light, in order that you may become sons of light.” Jesus said these things, and then he went away and was hidden from them. (John 12:36 LEB has εἰς translated as in for object direction of what to BE YE BELIEVING in) => Who is the light ?
BE YE BELIEVING to (in) The God, and/also to (in) Me BE YE BELIEVING (my literal translation, 'to (in)' for εἰς preposition with COMMAND)
@Bill_Coley June 19 I didn't claim the words "in addition to" are in the text. I claimed such is the meaning of the text in context. Had Jesus wanted to declare personal divinity, he could have said, "You believe in God. Since I'm God, that means you also believe in me." But Jesus didn't say that or anything resembling that.
Words spoken by Jewish Teacher Jesus were simple to hear & understand. The disciples already believed in Jesus as יהוה Lord. (John 13:13-14)
@Bill_Coley June 19 I am willing to believe and follow any voice God authorizes. Jesus is clearly, universally, and eternally a voice God authorizes. Again I ask, how can I show Agape love for God if I'm not willing to follow one whom God authorizes?
Puzzled by idea description of ' Jesus is clearly, universally, and eternally a voice God authorizes.' => How can Jesus clearly be eternally a voice God authorizes without being God ? Jesus is the same yesterday and today, and forever * (Hebrews 13:8 LEB) * Literally "to the ages"
In the bread of life discourse (John 6:22-58), what does john 6:40 teach about the Father's will for object of belief ? For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks at the Son and believes in him would have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:40 LEB)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 How can one truly follow & obey Jesus without elevating Jesus to being יהוה Lord God in one's life ?
@Bill_Coley June 19 Because God authorizes Jesus as one I am to follow and obey. For the third time I ask: How can I show Agape love for God if I don't follow and obey the one God authorizes for me to follow and obey?
Most important command: The Shema begins => “Hear, Israel, יהוה Yahweh our God, יהוה Yahweh is unique. And you shall love יהוה Yahweh your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your might. And these words that I am commanding you today shall be on your heart. And you shall recite them to your children, and you shall talk about them at the time of your living in your house and at the time of your going on the road and at the time of your lying down and at the time of your rising up. And you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as an emblem between your eyes. And you shall write them on the doorframe of your house and on your gates. (Deuteronomy 6:4-9 LEB)
The Shema text does not say to Agape Love God and the human to be authorized later. The Shema text says to Agape Love God with all of you.
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then what diety attributes does Jesus have ? eternal King ruler (John 18:33-40, John 19:19, Hebrews 1:5-14, Revelation 1:5) ? Where two or three are gathered in the name of Jesus, then Jesus is present (Matthew 18:20) ? Jesus releases us from sins against God by his blood (Ephesians 1:7 is in One Greek sentence numbered Ephesians 1:3-14, Revelation 1:5) ? No one comes to The Father, except through Jesus (John 14:5-6) ?
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then believing, following & obeying Jesus = believing, following & obeying God.
Keep Smiling 😊
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Taking another look at Exodus 3:14 " Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν·" translated as " I am the One who exists. " in Lexham English Septuagint
Ἐγώ => Pronoun, personal, 1st person, nominative, singular => I
εἰμι => Verb, present, active, indicative, 1st person, singular => I am being (Greek present tense is continuous action in present time)
ὁ => Article, nominative, singular, masculine => the (translation of Hebrew אֲשֶׁ֣ר that conjuction)
ὤν => Verb, present, active, participle, nominative, singular, masculine => I am being (Greek participle of εἰμι "to be" is a verbal noun)
אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה => Verb, Qal, yiqtōl (imperfect), 1st person, singular => I was, I am, I will be (Hebrew imperfect: "to exist" continuous action)
יהוה => Verb, Qal, yiqtōl (imperfect), 3rd person, singular => God was, God is, God will be (Holy God inspired 1st to 3rd person shift)
Simple truth here is that God told Mose that he should proclaim that ὁ ὤν ("the being one") is the term representing God - who had sent him. It was NOT Ἐγώ εἰμι that had sent him!! God did NOT tell Mose to proclaim " Ἐγώ εἰμι had sent him !! Rather, the words Ἐγώ εἰμι in God's declaration had their normal meaning of "I" and "am", just as any person uses the words, e.g. in "I am Wolfgang" (Note: "I am" is NOT who I a, Wolfgang is who I am).
Thus, when Jesus used the words "I am", he was NOT identifying himself as God (ὁ ὤν), and you can stop your hang up on "I am" right there and now.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
Human ideas expressed using phrase 'the text says' may include deceptive idea(s) about what 'the text says'.
But "human ideas" weren't the subject of your previous critique; the "humans" who have those ideas were. The former subject would not have prompted my reminder to you that we are expected to "criticize ideas, not people;" the latter, which was the subject you chose, did. I hope the transition from people to ideas on display in this response reflects your intention to comply with CD's expectation.
Curious about 'welcome you' idea ? (reads to me as your dismissal of my Jewish cultural understanding idea for what "the text says")
I mean nothing dismissive when I welcome you to your thoughts, ideas, interpretations, and hermeneutics. I mean only to express my respect for right to hold your points of view, including those contained in your thoughts, ideas, interpretations, and hermeneutics. Respect, of course, does not necessarily mean agreement.
Please provide Old Testament verse(s) for ideas about how Jewish Rabbi Jesus would express personal faith belief.
I have no idea how to identify OT texts Jesus might have used to express his personal faith belief as to whether his use of the title "Lord" meant that he believed himself to be God. Since, in my view, Jesus never thought himself to be God, I can't imagine why he ever would have needed such texts.
Luke's account does not mention nor explain Matthew's account of the devil obeying Jesus. The idea '..., but does not ascribe deity implications to said command' simply does not explain why the devil obeyed Jesus.
For the third time: If believe Jesus is NOT God, Why did the devil obey command by Jesus: "Go away, Satan" ? (Matthew 4:10-11)
My previous response addressed your question directly: Satan left because, as Luke reports, he had "completed every temptation." I see no indication in Matthew's version that Satan left specifically because Jesus told him to leave. And note that according to both Matthew's (Matthew 4.1) and Luke's (Luke 4.1-2) versions of the story, as well as Mark's abbreviated account (Mark 1.12), the Spirit drove Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted. In such a context, Luke's report that Satan left when he had "completed every temptation" makes sense.
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then the devil obeyed command of יהוה Lord God, who is Holy King over the devil.
Yes. If you're right, you're right. But that also means, if you're wrong, you're wrong.
To me, idea 'there is no textual support for your view.' appears to be an appeal to an unnamed authority (lacks Biblical text credibility for me).
In this instance, the "authority" to which I appeal has a name: Bill Coley. According to me, there is no textual support for your view. However, I WILL leave it to those unnamed authorities to somehow show... what's not there.
Yes! BOTH of us have faith beliefs about that come FROM AND AS A RESULT OF our engagement with Scripture. That's the point I've been trying to make to you for months upon months, until now, without apparent success. When the text comes first, faith beliefs follow; they DON'T precede.
VERY unexpected common ground.
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then is Jesus a hypocrite (sinner) about receiving worship ? (especially "My Lord and My God!" in John 20:28)
Not at all. No indication of hypocrisy or sin from Jesus in the John 20 scene or any other.
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then Jesus receiving Worship is appropriate & expected (Philippians 2:5-11)
Yes. If you're right, you're right. But that also means, if you're wrong, you're wrong.
Quoting start of Micah 5:2 (in Matthew 2:6) should bring more Biblical context to mind
The Micah 5 passage says nothing to change the fact that the wise men traveled to Bethlehem to worship one they believed was "the newborn King of the Jews."
If believe Jesus is NOT God & only God is Good per Luke 18:18-30, then why did Jesus say: "I am the Good Shepherd" ? Jesus = God Shepherd ?
The John 10 text does not say, and in my view does not mean, "God Shepherd." The text quotes Jesus as calling himself the "Good Shepherd," a role Jesus defines as sacrificing his life for the sheep (John 10.11). There is no indication in the John 10 scene that Jesus believes himself to be God.
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then Jesus saying “I am the good shepherd." = God Shepherd (truly consistent).
If you're right, you're right. But that also means, if you're wrong, you're wrong.
My reading of 1 Peter 3:15 => but set Christ apart as יהוה Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense to anyone who asks you for an accounting concerning the hope that is in you. (LEB with Jewish understanding: Lord => κύριος => Adonai => יהוה thousands of times every year, including twice daily repetition of The Shema => Hear & Obey Israel, יהוה Lord our God יהוה Lord unique, ...).
- 1 Peter 3.18: Christ suffered to "bring you to God"
- 1 Peter 3.22: Jesus Christ is now "at the right hand of God" in heaven
The distinction Peter makes between Jesus and God is clear (as it is in his sermons in Acts 2-4), and hence, 1 Peter 3.15, in my view, is not an encouragement to "set Christ apart as "יהוה Lord."
Notably missing for respectful Theological idea discussion is any Biblical text idea(s) for my "if" condition being false. We agree about then clause being moot when "if" condition is false. My "if" condition is based on what "original language text says" (specifically includes Deuteronomy 6:4, John 10:30, John 1:1-18). Puzzled by idea assertion: 'being that their "if" clauses are usually not true' since am now writing two "if" statements to show our faith belief ideas in a contrasting way for comparison.
So if you're right, you're right. But that also means, if you're wrong, you're wrong.
Only two words "I am" in Matthew 14:27 text identify Jesus as the one walking on stormy water faster than the boat carrying disciples. Looking at the text: (Disciples) "It is a ghost!" => (Jesus) "I am!" (in between two commands: Be ye courageous, I AM: not be ye fearing).
In response to Jesus' exhortation in Matthew 14.27, Peter says, "Lord, if it's you... tell me to come to you on the water," which is in keeping with the translation choice for Jesus' word Matthew 14.27 made by nearly every English language Bible: "It is I." That is, through those words Jesus simply identified himself to the disciples. So the flow is...
- Jesus: "It is I."
- Peter: "If it's you, tell me to come to you on the water."
In my view, your translation is not supported by the text or the flow of the scene.
The Jews replied to him, “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself out to be the Son of God!” (John 19:7 LEB) that is truly consistent with Leviticus 24.10-16 for Jewish law => blasphemy death penalty from clearly hearing diety words spoken by Jesus.
I've already demonstrated our disagreement as to the relevance of Leviticus 24.10-16.
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then idea 'The religious leaders were wrong.' implies Biblical text inspired by God has wrong words => Is God a liar ?
You may well infer that my suggestion about the religious means God-inspired words are "wrong," but by my suggestion, I did NOT intend to imply that to be the case. As I have pointed out on multiple occasions in the past, writers and speakers imply. Readers and listeners infer.
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then blasphemy describes Jewish religious leader reaction to ancient Jewish diety identity expressions spoken by Jewish Rabbi Jesus. Matthew 26:57-68, Mark 14:53-65, Luke 22:66-71, John 8:31-59, John 10:22-39
If you're right, you're right. But that also means, if you're wrong, you're wrong.
BE YE BELIEVING to (in) The God, and/also to (in) Me BE YE BELIEVING (my literal translation, 'to (in)' for εἰς preposition with COMMAND)
It's clear that we disagree as to the function of the verb "believe" in John 14.1.
Words spoken by Jewish Teacher Jesus were simple to hear & understand. The disciples already believed in Jesus as יהוה Lord. (John 13:13-14)
It's also clear that we disagree as to the meaning of the word "Lord" in John 13.13-14. I see no sense in the text that the disciples believe Jesus is "יהוה Lord."
Puzzled by idea description of ' Jesus is clearly, universally, and eternally a voice God authorizes.' => How can Jesus clearly be eternally a voice God authorizes without being God ? Jesus is the same yesterday and today, and forever * (Hebrews 13:8 LEB) * Literally "to the ages"
I should have been more precise in my use of the word "eternally." I contend that Jesus, once identified as God's Son in the baptism scene, as one to whom they should listen in the transfiguration scene, and as the glorified Christ in the resurrection and ascension - i.e. from then on, eternally - was a voice God authorized.
In the bread of life discourse (John 6:22-58), what does john 6:40 teach about the Father's will for object of belief ? For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks at the Son and believes in him would have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:40 LEB)
In John 6.38-40, Jesus makes a clear distinction between himself and his Father, the one who sent him and whose will Jesus says he does RATHER THAN HIS OWN (John 6.38).
If Jesus believed himself to be God, why did he specify that he wasn't doing his own will? Wouldn't his will have been the same as his Father's will if he thought himself to be God? If he thought himself to be God, could his own will have been IN ANY SUBSTANTIVE WAY in contradiction with his Father's will? If not, then why did he say he wasn't doing his own will? (The same distinction is found in the Gethsemane garden scene - "Not my will, but your will.") Why would one who was God choose not to do his own will?
The Shema text does not say to Agape Love God and the human to be authorized later. The Shema text says to Agape Love God with all of you.
We can love God with all our hearts, et al AND love the one God authorizes.
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then what diety attributes does Jesus have ? eternal King ruler (John 18:33-40, John 19:19, Hebrews 1:5-14, Revelation 1:5) ? Where two or three are gathered in the name of Jesus, then Jesus is present (Matthew 18:20) ? Jesus releases us from sins against God by his blood (Ephesians 1:7 is in One Greek sentence numbered Ephesians 1:3-14, Revelation 1:5) ? No one comes to The Father, except through Jesus (John 14:5-6) ?
Jesus has exactly the mission, capacity, and attributes God gave to him, both in his earthly ministry and in his glorified state post resurrection and ascension. Jesus is Lord, savior, mediator, king, etc because God called, sent, raised, and glorified him to those positions.
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then believing, following & obeying Jesus = believing, following & obeying God.
If you're right, you're right. But that also means, if you're wrong, you're wrong.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Words spoken by Jewish Teacher Jesus were simple to hear & understand. The disciples already believed in Jesus as יהוה Lord. (John 13:13-14)
Not at all ...the disciples nowhere declared or stated that they believed in Jesus to be YHWH.
Your whole argument about the word "lord" meaning "יהוה Lord" is unscriptural and false, just as wrong as your fanciful interpretation of the words "I am" as referring to God, and then making the man Jesus into the "I AM" God.
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@Wolfgang June 11 I suggest you finally take a more careful look at Exo 3:14 (cp. 3 simple to read and understand versions for starters) from LXX and understand why the 3 uses of the Hebrew word were translated differently:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 Only Exodus 3:14 in LXX has ὁ ὤν translation for words spoken by God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 Taking another look at Exodus 3:14 " Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν·" translated as " I am the One who exists. " in Lexham English Septuagint
@Wolfgang June 23 Simple truth here is that God told Mose that he should proclaim that ὁ ὤν ("the being one") is the term representing God - who had sent him. It was NOT Ἐγώ εἰμι that had sent him!! God did NOT tell Mose to proclaim " Ἐγώ εἰμι had sent him !! Rather, the words Ἐγώ εἰμι in God's declaration had their normal meaning of "I" and "am", just as any person uses the words, e.g. in "I am Wolfgang" (Note: "I am" is NOT who I a, Wolfgang is who I am).
Screen shot shows 15 English translations having "I AM" three times in Exodus 3:14 (bit different than LXX verb & participle translations)
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then 'when Jesus used the words "I am", he was NOT identifying himself as God' is consistent with belief, which has puzzling idea leap from Greek LXX (curious Jewish translation choice) for interpreting words of Jesus (ignores Jewish context of spoken words).
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then Jesus saying Ἐγώ εἰμι (I AM) often identifies Himself as God with us as The Father was our God in Heaven.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 Please provide Old Testament verse(s) for ideas about how Jewish Rabbi Jesus would express personal faith belief.
@Bill_Coley June 24 I have no idea how to identify OT texts Jesus might have used to express his personal faith belief as to whether his use of the title "Lord" meant that he believed himself to be God. Since, in my view, Jesus never thought himself to be God, I can't imagine why he ever would have needed such texts.
Faith belief idea 'Since, in my view, Jesus never thought himself to be God, I can't imagine why he ever would have needed such texts' infers => nothing Jesus said could express being יהוה Lord God so "Lord" and "I AM" spoken by Jesus must have meaning other than deity identification.
Personally amazed by Luke 2:41-52 where 12 year old Jesus knew the house of My Father is the Jewish Temple (for worshipping יהוה Lord God). All who heard young Jesus were amazed at His insights and answers over many days of discussion in the Jewish Temple.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 Luke's account does not mention nor explain Matthew's account of the devil obeying Jesus. The idea '..., but does not ascribe deity implications to said command' simply does not explain why the devil obeyed Jesus.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 For the third time: If believe Jesus is NOT God, Why did the devil obey command by Jesus: "Go away, Satan" ? (Matthew 4:10-11)
@Bill_Coley June 24 My previous response addressed your question directly: Satan left because, as Luke reports, he had "completed every temptation." I see no indication in Matthew's version that Satan left specifically because Jesus told him to leave. And note that according to both Matthew's (Matthew 4.1) and Luke's (Luke 4.1-2) versions of the story, as well as Mark's abbreviated account (Mark 1.12), the Spirit drove Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted. In such a context, Luke's report that Satan left when he had "completed every temptation" makes sense.
Why would the devil simply leave after completing temptation ? The devil keeps stalking for someone to devour (1 Peter 5:8-9 so would have continued tempting Jesus to sin). Also, the devil does not let his prisoners go (Isaiah 14:17) and put a thought in Peter's mind (Matthew 16:21-23). In contrast, יהוה Yahweh sets prisoners free; (Psalm 146:7) as does Jesus (John 8:31-38). Jesus read Isaiah 61:1-2 (in Luke 4:18-19), which includes '... to proclaim release to the captives and liberation to those who are bound,' (Isaiah 61:1 LEB) followed by Jesus saying: “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” (Luke 4:20 LEB). In the New Testament, the text says the devil and all demons obeyed every command spoken by Jesus. Human disciples of Jesus were NOT able to verbally command every demon to obey (Matthew 17:14-20, Mark 9:14-29, Luke 9:37-43)
For the fourth time, If believe Jesus is NOT God, Why did the devil obey command by Jesus: "Go away, Satan" ? (Matthew 4:10-11)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then the devil obeyed command of יהוה Lord God, who is Holy King over the devil.
@Bill_Coley June 24 Yes. If you're right, you're right. But that also means, if you're wrong, you're wrong.
We agree. Right and wrong also applies to idea => If believe Jesus is NOT God, ...
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 If believe Jesus is NOT God, then is Jesus a hypocrite (sinner) about receiving worship ? (especially "My Lord and My God!" in John 20:28)
@Bill_Coley June 24 Not at all. No indication of hypocrisy or sin from Jesus in the John 20 scene or any other.
If your faith belief idea 'Since, in my view, Jesus never thought himself to be God' is valid, then Jesus should have immediately corrected Thomas after "My Lord and My God!" in John 20:28, but instead of correction, 'Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”' (John 20:29 LEB). Jesus receiving יהוה Lord God worship from Thomas simply contrasts with Angel correcting John's worship in Revelation 22:8-11.
We agree the text says: "No indication of hypocrisy or sin from Jesus in the John 20 scene or any other." Curious if your faith belief ideas about the smallest seed parable in Matthew 13:31-32 and Mark 4:30-34 have changed ? (Thankful for Breath The Holy reminder)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 Quoting start of Micah 5:2 (in Matthew 2:6) should bring more Biblical context to mind
@Bill_Coley June 24 The Micah 5 passage says nothing to change the fact that the wise men traveled to Bethlehem to worship one they believed was "the newborn King of the Jews."
But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, too small to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go out for me, to be ruler in Israel; and his origins are from of old, from ancient days. (Micah 5:2 LEB) so "the newborn King of the Jews" ruler in Israel has origins from of old, from ancient days.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 If believe Jesus is NOT God & only God is Good per Luke 18:18-30, then why did Jesus say: "I am the Good Shepherd" ? Jesus = God Shepherd ?
@Bill_Coley June 24 The John 10 text does not say, and in my view does not mean, "God Shepherd." The text quotes Jesus as calling himself the "Good Shepherd," a role Jesus defines as sacrificing his life for the sheep (John 10.11). There is no indication in the John 10 scene that Jesus believes himself to be God.
Puzzling idea since Jesus knew about His human body death and His resurrection authority => “I am the good shepherd, and I know my own, and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep which are not from this fold. I must bring these also, and they will hear my voice, and they will become one flock—one shepherd. Because of this the Father loves me, because I lay down my life so that I may take possession of it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down voluntarily. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take possession of it again. This commandment I received from my Father.” (John 10:14-18 LEB)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then Jesus saying “I am the good shepherd." = God Shepherd (truly consistent).
@Bill_Coley June 24 If you're right, you're right. But that also means, if you're wrong, you're wrong.
My faith belief sees Jesus deity identification in John 10:14-18 since humans do not have authority (nor ability) to resurrect themself after human body death. In human history, the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus are verifiable facts. To me, all of One unique God resurrected Jesus.
@Bill_Coley June 19 * 1 Peter 3.15 commands that we worship/revere/sanctify, depending on the translation, Christ as the Lord of our lives; it does NOT direct us to worship Christ as God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 My reading of 1 Peter 3:15 => but set Christ apart as יהוה Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense to anyone who asks you for an accounting concerning the hope that is in you. (LEB with Jewish understanding: Lord => κύριος => Adonai => יהוה thousands of times every year, including twice daily repetition of The Shema => Hear & Obey Israel, יהוה Lord our God יהוה Lord unique, ...).
@Bill_Coley June 24 * 1 Peter 3.18: Christ suffered to "bring you to God"
@Bill_Coley June 24 * 1 Peter 3.22: Jesus Christ is now "at the right hand of God" in heaven
@Bill_Coley June 24 The distinction Peter makes between Jesus and God is clear (as it is in his sermons in Acts 2-4), and hence, 1 Peter 3.15, in my view, is not an encouragement to "set Christ apart as "יהוה Lord."
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then must "see" clear distinctions in the text (reminds me of classical eisegesis deceit).
Most important command => “Hear, Israel, יהוה Yahweh our God, יהוה Yahweh is unique. And you shall love יהוה Yahweh your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your might. (Deuteronomy 6:4-5 LEB) where the text does NOT say "And you shall love יהוה Yahweh your God and annointed human sent by יהוה Yahweh with all of your heart" so setting Christ apart as יהוה Lord in your hearts causes loyalty distinction between יהוה Yahweh your God and annointed human lord (when believe Jesus is NOT God).
In contrast, if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then setting Christ apart as יהוה Lord in your hearts is obeying "you shall love יהוה Yahweh your God with all of your heart ...". Noticed 1 Peter 3:8-17 has יהוה Lord three times:
And finally, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, showing mutual affection, compassionate, humble, not repaying evil for evil or insult for insult, but on the other hand blessing others, because for this reason you were called, so that you could inherit a blessing. For “The one who wants to love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips must not speak deceit. And he must turn away from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the יהוה Lord are on the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. But the face of the יהוה Lord is against those who do evil. And who is the one who will harm you if you are a zealous adherent for what is good? But even if you might suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. And do not be afraid of their intimidation or be disturbed, but set Christ apart as יהוה Lord in your hearts, always ready to make a defense to anyone who asks you for an accounting concerning the hope that is in you. But do so with courtesy and respect, having a good conscience, so that in the things in which you are slandered, the ones who malign your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if God wills it, than for doing evil. (1 Peter 3:8-17 LEB)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 Only two words "I am" in Matthew 14:27 text identify Jesus as the one walking on stormy water faster than the boat carrying disciples. Looking at the text: (Disciples) "It is a ghost!" => (Jesus) "I am!" (in between two commands: Be ye courageous, I AM: not be ye fearing).
@Bill_Coley June 24 In response to Jesus' exhortation in Matthew 14.27, Peter says, "Lord, if it's you... tell me to come to you on the water," which is in keeping with the translation choice for Jesus' word Matthew 14.27 made by nearly every English language Bible: "It is I." That is, through those words Jesus simply identified himself to the disciples. So the flow is...
@Bill_Coley June 24 * Jesus: "It is I."
@Bill_Coley June 24 * Peter: "If it's you, tell me to come to you on the water."
@Bill_Coley June 24 In my view, your translation is not supported by the text or the flow of the scene.
Logos Bible search "I am" WITHIN {Milestone <Mt14.27>} finds 16 Bibles: 9 English and 7 Greek (εἰμί = "I am") while "it is" WITHIN {Milestone <Mt14.27>} finds 83 English Bibles. 1382 Wycliffe has "I am" while 1535 Coverdale & 1536 Tyndale have "it is I" (puzzling translation of 1st person verb εἰμί as 3rd person, especially when textual criticism of Greek shows no variance for ἐγώ εἰμι in Matthew 14:27). If Greek text had been "ἐστιν ἐγώ" then "it is I" would be corresponding 3rd person translation. Humanly not know why English translation changed from "I am" in 1382 to "it is I" in 1535/1536 (suspect translator personal preferences, which may have embedded cultural bias for English phrase).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 20 Please provide Biblical verse(s) from the Books of Moses that provide BECAUSE basis for Jewish Rabbi Jesus to be put to death for words spoken.
@Bill_Coley June 19 You asked why in each of several texts Jewish leaders wanted to put Jesus to death. Using those texts, I reported the rationale in each case. You've contended (and I've disputed) that Leviticus 24.10-16 is relevant. I'm not going try to read the Jewish leaders' minds as to on which texts, if any, their cries for Jesus' execution relied.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 The Jews replied to him, “We have a law, and according to the law he ought to die, because he made himself out to be the Son of God!” (John 19:7 LEB) that is truly consistent with Leviticus 24.10-16 for Jewish law => blasphemy death penalty from clearly hearing diety words spoken by Jesus.
@Bill_Coley June 24 I've already demonstrated our disagreement as to the relevance of Leviticus 24.10-16.
Disagreement expressions simply lack Jewish legal basis for execution from what "the text says" in the first five books of the Bible.
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then faith belief idea can never explain Jewish Blasphemy death penalty where Jesus was put to death (cruxified) for who He said He is. Ancient Jewish diety identity expressions were clearly understood by Jewish religious lawyers and judges, who had memorized every letter of Torah teaching words (basis for Jewish religious law: literally knew the letter of the law). Jewish religious lawyers and judges refused to believe truthfulness of ancient Jewish deity identity expressions by Jesus, as stated in Luke 22:66-71, and described in John 19:11 as greater sin.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then blasphemy describes Jewish religious leader reaction to ancient Jewish diety identity expressions spoken by Jewish Rabbi Jesus. Matthew 26:57-68, Mark 14:53-65, Luke 22:66-71, John 8:31-59, John 10:22-39
@Bill_Coley June 24 If you're right, you're right. But that also means, if you're wrong, you're wrong.
At least one of our faith belief ideas from what "the text says" study results is wrong. Every person chooses what to stubbornly believe.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 BE YE BELIEVING to (in) The God, and/also to (in) Me BE YE BELIEVING (my literal translation, 'to (in)' for εἰς preposition with COMMAND)
@Bill_Coley June 24 It's clear that we disagree as to the function of the verb "believe" in John 14.1.
Clearly our "the text says" study results have different faith belief ideas, which includes how to view/interpret what "the text says".
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then John 14.1 must NOT be a COMMAND from Jesus to believe in Jesus as God (must mean something else, possibly a figure of speech).
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then John 14.1 simply COMMANDS => BE YE BELIEVING in Jesus as God (object of belief to me is One plural unique יהוה God, who has more than one voice).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 Words spoken by Jewish Teacher Jesus were simple to hear & understand. The disciples already believed in Jesus as יהוה Lord. (John 13:13-14)
@Bill_Coley June 24 It's also clear that we disagree as to the meaning of the word "Lord" in John 13.13-14. I see no sense in the text that the disciples believe Jesus is "יהוה Lord."
Clearly reads to me as a variant expression of your faith belief idea 'Since, in my view, Jesus never thought himself to be God' so will 'see no sense in the text that the disciples believe Jesus is "יהוה Lord."', which ignores Jewish understanding: Lord => κύριος => Adonai => יהוה
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 Puzzled by idea description of ' Jesus is clearly, universally, and eternally a voice God authorizes.' => How can Jesus clearly be eternally a voice God authorizes without being God ? Jesus is the same yesterday and today, and forever * (Hebrews 13:8 LEB) * Literally "to the ages"
@Bill_Coley June 24 I should have been more precise in my use of the word "eternally." I contend that Jesus, once identified as God's Son in the baptism scene, as one to whom they should listen in the transfiguration scene, and as the glorified Christ in the resurrection and ascension - i.e. from then on, eternally - was a voice God authorized.
Reminds me of a theological idea from one set of churches: "As man is, God was. As God is, man will become." (while using the name of Jesus, the church doctrine teaches belief that Jesus is NOT God). The 12 year old Jesus knew His Father's house was The Jewish Temple (Luke 2:41-52) so Jesus knew Joseph was NOT his human biological father. Prior to Holy God creating physical realm, Jesus experienced God's Glory (John 17:5) and Love (John 17:24). Jesus knew His voice was clearly distinct from The Father when the only Spirit Being in existence was One unique יהוה God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 In the bread of life discourse (John 6:22-58), what does john 6:40 teach about the Father's will for object of belief ? For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks at the Son and believes in him would have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” (John 6:40 LEB)
@Bill_Coley June 24 In John 6.38-40, Jesus makes a clear distinction between himself and his Father, the one who sent him and whose will Jesus says he does RATHER THAN HIS OWN (John 6.38).
@Bill_Coley June 24 If Jesus believed himself to be God, why did he specify that he wasn't doing his own will? Wouldn't his will have been the same as his Father's will if he thought himself to be God? If he thought himself to be God, could his own will have been IN ANY SUBSTANTIVE WAY in contradiction with his Father's will? If not, then why did he say he wasn't doing his own will? (The same distinction is found in the Gethsemane garden scene - "Not my will, but your will.") Why would one who was God choose not to do his own will?
With The Father, Jesus lovingly showed the true way to righteous living in Holy God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 The Shema text does not say to Agape Love God and the human to be authorized later. The Shema text says to Agape Love God with all of you.
@Bill_Coley June 24 We can love God with all our hearts, et al AND love the one God authorizes.
“No one is able to serve two masters. For either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You are not able to serve God and money. (Matthew 6:24 LEB)
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If believe Jesus is NOT God, then 'when Jesus used the words "I am", he was NOT identifying himself as God' is consistent with belief, which has puzzling idea leap from Greek LXX (curious Jewish translation choice) for interpreting words of Jesus (ignores Jewish context of spoken words).
Has nothing to do with belief, but with simple plain text and what the text says. "I am the good shepherd" does NOT say "God good shepherd" ...
Belief follows and should be based on text .... and NOT text is interpreted based on pre-conceived belief
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then Jesus saying Ἐγώ εἰμι (I AM) often identifies Himself as God with us as The Father was our God in Heaven.
The man Jesus was God's only begotten Son ... and doing always what was God's will , God was always with His people. But the man Jesus (in whom God was with His people) never was identified by others or identified himself as God; rather, he identified God to be his Father in heaven.
Simple and plain truth .... independent of anyone's beliefs !
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Brethren,
What is this, "Christian Debate" or Christian Negotiation? Jesus is Lord, Savior of humanity and coming King with "resurrection power". This is Truth for these times and eternity! Those who don't accept Jesus's Lordship are without a Savior and salvation. Just because one's little pea-brains can't comprehend the "mysteries" of God, it doesn't mean our God isn't One (Father, Son (Jesus, the Christ), and Holy Spirit). The Bible is an "inspired" Book. Therefore, it takes Divine "Illumination" for maximum comprehension. Human intellect, alone, will not and can not bring a full knowledge of the Self-existing One from "everlasting-to-everlasting". CM
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What is this, "Christian Debate" or Christian Negotiation?
Neither ...
Christians are discussing their current understanding of Biblical topics in light of their current insights into the Biblical text. Unfortunately, some are seemingly discussing things in light of their knowledge of particular theologies rather than their personal insights into Biblical texts.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Words spoken by Jewish Teacher Jesus were simple to hear & understand. The disciples already believed in Jesus as יהוה Lord. (John 13:13-14)
@Wolfgang June 24 Not at all ...the disciples nowhere declared or stated that they believed in Jesus to be YHWH.
Matthew 16:13-23 Now when Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he began asking his disciples, saying, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, Some say John the Baptist, but others Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God!” And Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overpower it! I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you release on earth will be released in heaven.” Then he commanded the disciples that they should tell no one that he was the Christ. From that time on Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised on the third day. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, God forbid, יהוה Lord! This will never happen to you!” But he turned around and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a cause for stumbling to me, because you are not intent on the things of God, but the things of people!”
The Christ = The Messiah = יהוה God with us. Noticed after Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God!” that Peter called Jesus יהוה Lord (knowing Jewish word usage: Lord => κύριος => Adonai => יהוה), whose יהוה Lord usage was not corrected by Jesus, but Jesus did rebuke Satan for disagreeing with prophetic purpose of human body (servant): "From that time on Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised on the third day." After resurrection, John saw grave clothes in tomb without human body and believed (John 20:8)
So when he had washed their feet and taken his outer clothing and reclined at table again, he said to them, “Do you understand what I have done for you? You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘ יהוה Lord,’ and you speak correctly, for I am. If then I—your יהוה Lord and Teacher—wash your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. For I have given you an example, that just as I have done for you, you also do. Truly, truly I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor a messenger greater than the one who sent him. If you understand these things, you are blessed if you do them. (John 13:13-17 LEB)
Without verifiable evidence, your argument ideas read to me as 'fabella sine argumento' (lacks credibility about what the text simply says)
Morph Search in the Lexham Hebrew Bible for first person pronoun followed by יהוה finds 211 verses (83 in Torah):
<LogosMorphHeb ~ RP1????> BEFORE 1 WORD lemma:יהוה
εἶπεν δὲ αὐτῷ Ἐγὼ ὁ θεὸς ὁ ἐξαγαγών σε ἐκ χώρας Χαλδαίων, ὥστε δοῦναί σοι τὴν γῆν ταύτην κληρονομῆσαι. (Genesis 15:7 LXX Swete)
And he said to him, “I am the God who has brought you out of the territory of Chaldeans in order to give you this land to inherit.” (Genesis 15:7 LES)
Ἐλάλησεν δὲ ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτόν Ἐγὼ Κύριος· (Exodus 6:2 LXX Swete)
And God spoke to Moses and said to him, “I am the Lord. (Exodus 6:2 LES = Lexham English Septuagint)
Genesis 15:7, Exodus 4:11... has Jewish translation of אֲנִ֥י יְהוָֽה׃ as Ἐγὼ ὁ θεὸς (literally "I the God")
Genesis 28:13 has Jewish translation of אֲנִ֥י יְהוָֽה׃ as Ἐγὼ (literally "I") that is followed by "The God" to translate יהוה and Elohim (Plural)
Exodus 6:2, Exodus 6:6-8, Exodus 6:29, Exodus 7:17, Exodus 10:2, ... has Jewish translation of אֲנִ֥י יְהוָֽה׃ as Ἐγὼ Κύριος (literally "I Lord")
Exodus 7:5, Exodus 8:18, Exodus 14:4, Exodus 15:26, Exodus 20:2 ... has Jewish translation of אֲנִ֥י יְהוָֽה׃ => ἐγώ εἰμι Κύριος (literally "I AM Lord")
τίς ἐνήργησεν καὶ ἐποίησεν ταῦτα; ἐκάλεσεν αὐτὴν ὁ καλῶν αὐτὴν ἀπὸ γενεῶν ἀρχῆς· ἐγὼ θεὸς πρῶτος, καὶ εἰς τὰ ἐπερχόμενα ἐγώ εἰμι. (Isaiah 41:4 LXX Swete)
Who has produced and made these things? The one who called her from the beginning of generations has summoned her. I, God, am at the first, and I am in the future. (Isaiah 41:1 LES)
Isaiah 41:4 ... has Jewish translation of אֲנִ֥י יְהוָֽה׃ as Ἐγὼ θεὸς (literally "I God")
Isaiah 41:4 ends with two pronouns (1st & 3rd person): "I He" "אֲנִי־הֽוּא" that was translated as ἐγώ εἰμι ("I AM") identifier for God (from context).
Hebrew Bible and Greek Septuagint were Jewish Scripture when Jesus physically walked on earth.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 5 If believe Jesus is NOT God, then 'when Jesus used the words "I am", he was NOT identifying himself as God' is consistent with belief, which has puzzling idea leap from Greek LXX (curious Jewish translation choice) for interpreting words of Jesus (ignores Jewish context of spoken words).
@Wolfgang July 5 Has nothing to do with belief, but with simple plain text and what the text says. "I am the good shepherd" does NOT say "God good shepherd" ...
My faith belief sees Jesus deity identification in John 10:14-18 since humans do not have authority (nor ability) to resurrect themself after human body death. In human history, the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus are verifiable facts. To me, all of One unique God resurrected Jesus.
Jesus knew about His human body death and His God authority for physical body resurrection => “I am the good shepherd, and I know my own, and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep which are not from this fold. I must bring these also, and they will hear my voice, and they will become one flock—one shepherd. Because of this the Father loves me, because I lay down my life so that I may take possession of it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down voluntarily. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take possession of it again. This commandment I received from my Father.” (John 10:14-18 LEB)
To me, Isaiah 52:13-53:12 includes resurrection: "he shall be exalted, and he shall be lifted up, and he shall be very high" along with immense loving purpose for "I lay down my life for the sheep" as the Holy substitutionary sin sacrifice so many humans can be declared righteous to God:
Look, my servant shall achieve success; he shall be exalted, and he shall be lifted up, and he shall be very high. Just as many were appalled at you— such was his appearance beyond human disfigurement, and his form beyond the sons of mankind— so he shall sprinkle many nations; because of him, kings shall shut their mouths. For they shall see what has not been told them, and they shall consider with full attention what they have not heard. Who has believed our message, and to whom has the arm of יהוה Yahweh been revealed? For he went up like a shoot before him, and like a root from dry ground. He had no form and no majesty that we should see him, and no appearance that we should take pleasure in him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of suffering, and acquainted with sickness, and like one from whom others hide their faces, he was despised, and we did not hold him in high regard. However, he was the one who lifted up our sicknesses, and he carried our pain, yet we ourselves assumed him stricken, struck down by God and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon him, and by his wounds we were healed. All of us have wandered about like sheep; we each have turned to his own way; and יהוה Yahweh let fall on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was brought like a lamb to the slaughter, and like a sheep is dumb before its shearers, so he did not open his mouth. He was taken by restraint of justice, and who concerned himself with his generation? For he was cut off from the land of the living; he received a blow because of the transgression of my people. He made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet יהוה Yahweh was pleased to crush him; he made him sick. If she places his life a guilt offering, he will see offspring. He will prolong days, and the will of יהוה Yahweh will succeed in his hand. From the trouble of his life he will see; he will be satisfied. In his knowledge, the righteous one, my servant, shall declare many righteous, and he is the one who will bear their iniquities. Therefore, I will divide to him a portion among the many, and with the strong ones he will divide bounty, because he poured his life out to death and was counted with the transgressors; and he was the one who bore the sin of many and will intercede for the transgressors. (Isaiah 52:13-53:12 LEB)
If believe God is One Spirit who has only One voice, then any words expressed by Jesus about being part of One God inside a human body must mean something else.
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then words expressed by Jesus about being part of One God inside a human body expresses God with us (as predicted in Isaiah 9:6-7 & Jeremiah 23:5-6)
Chapter 1 of "How to Read the Bible for All its Worth, 4th ed." includes:
The first reason one needs to learn how to interpret is that, whether one likes it or not, every reader is at the same time an interpreter. That is, most of us assume as we read that we also understand what we read. We also tend to think that our understanding is the same as the Holy Spirit’s or human author’s intent. However, we invariably bring to the text all that we are, with all of our experiences, culture, and prior understandings of words and ideas. Sometimes what we bring to the text, unintentionally to be sure, leads us astray, or else causes us to read all kinds of foreign ideas into the text.
Gordon D. Fee and Douglas Stuart, How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth, Fourth Edition. (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2014), 22.
To me, every human interprets scripture text using personal pre-conceived beliefs: we cannot read scripture text without seeing what we believe.
Later in Chapter 1 of "How to Read the Bible for All its Worth, 4th ed." is:
The first task of the interpreter is called exegesis. This involves the careful, systematic study of the Scripture to discover the original, intended meaning. This is primarily a historical task. It is the attempt to hear the Word as the original recipients were to have heard it, to find out what was the original intent of the words of the Bible. This is the task that often calls for the help of the “expert,” a person trained to know well the language and circumstances of a text in its original setting. But one does not have to be an expert to do good exegesis.
In fact, everyone is an exegete of sorts. The only real question is whether you will be a good one.
Gordon D. Fee and Douglas Stuart, How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth, Fourth Edition. (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2014), 27–28.
Thankful for learning about original languages and Jewish culture/circumstances. Learning Greek does give new meaning to the phrase: "That's Greek to Me" since can read passages of Greek: e.g. "Χαίρετε ἐν κυρίῳ πάντοτε· πάλιν ἐρῶ, χαίρετε. τὸ ἐπιεικὲς ὑμῶν γνωσθήτω πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποις. ὁ κύριος ἐγγύς· μηδὲν μεριμνᾶτε, ἀλλʼ ἐν παντὶ τῇ προσευχῇ καὶ τῇ δεήσει μετʼ εὐχαριστίας τὰ αἰτήματα ὑμῶν γνωριζέσθω πρὸς τὸν θεόν· καὶ ἡ εἰρήνη τοῦ θεοῦ ἡ ὑπερέχουσα πάντα νοῦν φρουρήσει τὰς καρδίας ὑμῶν καὶ τὰ νοήματα ὑμῶν ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ. Τὸ λοιπόν, ἀδελφοί, ὅσα ἐστὶν ἀληθῆ, ὅσα σεμνά, ὅσα δίκαια, ὅσα ἁγνά, ὅσα προσφιλῆ, ὅσα εὔφημα, εἴ τις ἀρετὴ καὶ εἴ τις ἔπαινος, ταῦτα λογίζεσθε·" while other passages are Greek to me. Thankful for scripture study skill using language tools for my own stilted literal translation plus ability to search text.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 5 Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then Jesus saying Ἐγώ εἰμι (I AM) often identifies Himself as God with us as The Father was our God in Heaven.
@Wolfgang July 5 The man Jesus was God's only begotten Son ... and doing always what was God's will , God was always with His people. But the man Jesus (in whom God was with His people) never was identified by others or identified himself as God; rather, he identified God to be his Father in heaven.
The 12 year old Jesus knew His Father's house was The Jewish Temple (Luke 2:41-52) so Jesus knew Joseph was NOT his human biological father.
Prior to Holy God creating physical realm (out of nothing), Jesus experienced God's Glory (John 17:5) and Love (John 17:24). Jesus knew His voice was clearly distinct from The Father when the only Spirit Being in existence was One unique יהוה God.
What did Jesus command to the man in the Gerasenes region, who previously had Legion of demons inside (no human could subdue him) ?
And they came to the other side of the sea, to the region of the Gerasenes. And as he was getting out of the boat, immediately from the tombs a man with an unclean spirit went to meet him, who lived among the tombs. And no one was able to bind him any longer, not even with a chain, because he had often been bound with shackles and chains, and the chains had been torn apart by him, and the shackles had been shattered. And no one was strong enough to subdue him. And during every night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was crying out and cutting himself with stones. And when he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and knelt down before him. And crying out with a loud voice he said, “What have I to do with you, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore you by God, do not torment me!” (For he was saying to him, “Come out of the man, unclean spirit!”) And he was asking him “What is your name?” And he said to him, “My name is Legion, because we are many.” And he was imploring him many times that he would not send them out of the region. Now a large herd of pigs was there at the hill feeding, and they implored him, saying, “Send us to the pigs so that we may enter into them.” And he permitted them. And the unclean spirits came out and entered into the pigs, and the herd—about two thousand—rushed headlong down the steep slope into the sea and were drowned in the sea. And their herdsmen fled and reported it in the town and in the countryside, and they came to see what it was that had happened. And they came to Jesus and saw the demon-possessed man sitting there clothed and in his right mind—the one who had had the legion—and they were afraid. And those who had seen it described to them what had happened to the demon-possessed man, and about the pigs. And they began to urge him to depart from their region. And as he was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed began to implore him that he could go with him. And he did not permit him, but said to him, “Go to your home to your people and tell them all that the יהוה Lord has done for you, and that he has had mercy on you.” And he went away and began to proclaim in the Decapolis all that Jesus had done for him, and they were all astonished. (Mark 5:1-20 LEB)
We agree. Holy God Truth is consistent and indepedent of anyone's belief.
@C Mc July 6 What is this, "Christian Debate" or Christian Negotiation? Jesus is Lord, Savior of humanity and coming King with "resurrection power". This is Truth for these times and eternity! Those who don't accept Jesus's Lordship are without a Savior and salvation. Just because one's little pea-brains can't comprehend the "mysteries" of God, it doesn't mean our God isn't One (Father, Son (Jesus, the Christ), and Holy Spirit). The Bible is an "inspired" Book. Therefore, it takes Divine "Illumination" for maximum comprehension. Human intellect, alone, will not and can not bring a full knowledge of the Self-existing One from "everlasting-to-everlasting". CM
Curious how insulting idea 'Just because one's little pea-brains can't comprehend the "mysteries" of God' expresses God's Love ❤️ ? (Matthew 5:43-48 & 1 John 3:11-24)
From personal experience years ago, know human intellect can understand Jesus was/is God with us, BUT humanly choose me to be lord of my own life. Every human chooses what to truly Love ❤️ the most: One unique God OR something other than God (e.g. anger, anorexia, appearance, bulimic, deceit, deceptiveness, gluttony, falsehood, lust, manipulation, nature, pleasure, power, pride, religion, self, studies, stuff, treasure, ...).
Thankful for @theMadJW starting this thread, which has included lots of scripture discussion about who Jesus is.
Keep Smiling 😊
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Many, many ...and even very many words of faith belief interpretation contradicting the simple plain truth expressed in text of Scripture
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
Faith belief idea 'Since, in my view, Jesus never thought himself to be God, I can't imagine why he ever would have needed such texts' infers => nothing Jesus said could express being יהוה Lord God so "Lord" and "I AM" spoken by Jesus must have meaning other than deity identification.
And again I remind you that "imply" and "infer" are not synonyms. Writers and speakers (and the content they create) imply; they DON'T infer. Readers and listeners infer. Therefore, you, NOT my "faith belief," inferred from my "faith belief" that "nothing Jesus could express being יהוה Lord God...."
Do I mean to imply that "nothing Jesus said could express being יהוה Lord God..."? I suppose so given that if Jesus didn't think himself to be God, and his public statements were always consistent with that view, then yes, nothing Jesus said would have expressed his being יהוה Lord God. But the most precise answer is that I meant to imply that nothing Jesus said DID express his being יהוה Lord God. That is, my implication was not about what he COULD have said, but rather about what he actually DID say.
Personally amazed by Luke 2:41-52 where 12 year old Jesus knew the house of My Father is the Jewish Temple (for worshipping יהוה Lord God). All who heard young Jesus were amazed at His insights and answers over many days of discussion in the Jewish Temple.
In the temple story, Jesus declares God to be his Father; he does NOT declare himself to be God.
Why would the devil simply leave after completing temptation ?
You'll have to ask Luke, the Gospel writer, since he's the one who reports the devil left having "completed every temptation" (Luke 4.13, LEB). My understanding of the text is that the devil left because he had fulfilled his role in the scene. The Spirit had led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted (Matthew 4.1; Luke 4.1; Mark 1.12). When the devil had created the temptations the Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness to experience, the devil left.
The devil keeps stalking for someone to devour (1 Peter 5:8-9 so would have continued tempting Jesus to sin). Also, the devil does not let his prisoners go (Isaiah 14:17) and put a thought in Peter's mind (Matthew 16:21-23). In contrast, יהוה Yahweh sets prisoners free; (Psalm 146:7) as does Jesus (John 8:31-38). Jesus read Isaiah 61:1-2 (in Luke 4:18-19), which includes '... to proclaim release to the captives and liberation to those who are bound,' (Isaiah 61:1 LEB) followed by Jesus saying: “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” (Luke 4:20 LEB). In the New Testament, the text says the devil and all demons obeyed every command spoken by Jesus. Human disciples of Jesus were NOT able to verbally command every demon to obey (Matthew 17:14-20, Mark 9:14-29, Luke 9:37-43)
Comments about two of the texts you cite:
- 1 Peter 5.8-9 describes the devil's general behavior, but NOT the devil's behavior in Jesus' temptation, wherein he creates temptations which the Spirit had led Jesus into the wilderness to experience.
- Isaiah 14.17 is NOT about the devil; it's part of a larger commentary about the king of Babylon (Isaiah 14.4; the larger commentary itself is Isaiah 14.3-20).
The Gospels typically describe Jesus' commands to demons as his casting them out. There is no such description attached to Matthew's report of the temptation scene. Therefore, given that the Spirit had led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted, that according to Luke's report, the devil left when he had "completed every temptation," and in the absence of casting out imagery in any of the accounts, in my view it's fair to conclude the devil left because he had finished tempting, not because Jesus had ordered him to leave.
For the fourth time, If believe Jesus is NOT God, Why did the devil obey command by Jesus: "Go away, Satan" ? (Matthew 4:10-11)
I've answered your question directly in two previous posts, and with this post, a third time. I respect your disapproval of my response, but it was and remains a direct response.
In my view of the Gospel accounts, the devil left because he had "completed every temptation," not because Jesus had commanded him to leave. Hence, I can't tell you why the devil obeyed Jesus' command because I don't think the devil left in response to that command.
What do you think Luke means when he doesn't tell us Jesus told the devil to leave, but instead tells us the devil left when he had "completed every temptation"?
We agree. Right and wrong also applies to idea => If believe Jesus is NOT God, ...
I agree.
If your faith belief idea 'Since, in my view, Jesus never thought himself to be God' is valid, then Jesus should have immediately corrected Thomas after "My Lord and My God!" in John 20:28, but instead of correction, 'Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”' (John 20:29 LEB). Jesus receiving יהוה Lord God worship from Thomas simply contrasts with Angel correcting John's worship in Revelation 22:8-11.
Are you saying Jesus should have "immediately corrected" Thomas the way he immediately corrected the rich man who called him "good teacher" by saying only God was good? (Mark 10.17-18)
I don't read Thomas' word to Jesus as a declaration that Jesus is God. Rather, I take it as his confession to the truth of what Jesus had told him: when he saw Jesus, he saw the Father, that he was in the Father and the Father was in him (John 14.6-7).
We agree the text says: "No indication of hypocrisy or sin from Jesus in the John 20 scene or any other." Curious if your faith belief ideas about the smallest seed parable in Matthew 13:31-32 and Mark 4:30-34 have changed ? (Thankful for Breath The Holy reminder)
There is no change to the way I read Jesus' characterization of the mustard seed as the smallest seed on earth, a reading, by the way, which did not accuse Jesus of either hypocrisy or sin.
But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, too small to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go out for me, to be ruler in Israel; and his origins are from of old, from ancient days. (Micah 5:2 LEB) so "the newborn King of the Jews" ruler in Israel has origins from of old, from ancient days.
Some comments about the Micah 5 text:
- In context, it DOES NOT say the one who will come forth from Bethlehem will be God. Rather, it says the one who will come forth will do so "for" God (Micah 5.2, LEB).
- The prophet says the one who will come forth from Bethlehem will "stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of Jahweh, in the majesty of the name of Jahweh his God" (Micah 5.4, LEB). So the one who will come forth will have a God, and that God's name will be Jahweh.
- Hence, the text does NOT say the one who will come forth will be God.
- On what textual basis do you contend that the Micah 5 verse explains why the wise men followed the star?
Puzzling idea since Jesus knew about His human body death and His resurrection authority => “I am the good shepherd, and I know my own, and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep which are not from this fold. I must bring these also, and they will hear my voice, and they will become one flock—one shepherd. Because of this the Father loves me, because I lay down my life so that I may take possession of it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down voluntarily. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take possession of it again. This commandment I received from my Father.” (John 10:14-18 LEB)
And where did Jesus get the authority to lay down his life (crucifixion) and pick it back up (resurrection)? John's Gospel seems clearly to say that any authority Jesus had came from God, the one he called his "Father":
- John 5.22: God gives Jesus the "absolute" authority to judge
- John 12.49: God gives Jesus the authority to speak and what to say
- John 13.3: God gives Jesus the authority to judge everyone because he (Jesus) is the Son of Man
- John 17.2: God gives Jesus authority over everyone
Jesus had the authority God had given him. Hence, in my view, the John 10 passage does not support your reference to Jesus as the "God Shepherd."
My faith belief sees Jesus deity identification in John 10:14-18 since humans do not have authority (nor ability) to resurrect themself after human body death. In human history, the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus are verifiable facts. To me, all of One unique God resurrected Jesus.
Your faith belief sees.... In my view, here again your faith belief has preceded your engagement with a biblical text that does not support your view. As I just noted, Jesus had authority only because God had given it to him. In my view, every human has ANY authority or ability that God gives them.
That Jesus had the authority to pick his life back up does NOT mean he raised himself. It means he knew physical death would not be the end of his life.
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then must "see" clear distinctions in the text (reminds me of classical eisegesis deceit).
No deceit.
In my view, if "clear distinctions" exist in texts, as they do in the earlier-cited 1 Peter passages, one "must 'see'" them, regardless of one's faith beliefs (which would remind me of classical exegesis).
Most important command => “Hear, Israel, יהוה Yahweh our God, יהוה Yahweh is unique. And you shall love יהוה Yahweh your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your might. (Deuteronomy 6:4-5 LEB) where the text does NOT say "And you shall love יהוה Yahweh your God and annointed human sent by יהוה Yahweh with all of your heart" so setting Christ apart as יהוה Lord in your hearts causes loyalty distinction between יהוה Yahweh your God and annointed human lord (when believe Jesus is NOT God).
No loyalty distinction.
The Shema refers to love for God. My confession of faith refers to my love for Jesus as Lord and Savior. I am able to love God as God and love Jesus as my Lord and Savior without confusion. If I can't love and follow Jesus - the one God sent and authorized as my savior - without violating the Shema, then how can I follow Jesus' command to love my neighbor as myself without also violating the Shema? How can I love ANYBODY other than God without violating the Shema?
In contrast, if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then setting Christ apart as יהוה Lord in your hearts is obeying "you shall love יהוה Yahweh your God with all of your heart ...". Noticed 1 Peter 3:8-17 has יהוה Lord three times:
I respect that this is the case for you.
The 1 Peter 3 text refers to Jesus as Lord - i.e. master/leader/commander - NOT as God.
1 Cor 8.6 makes clear the distinction between the one God - the "Father" - and the one Lord (kyrios) - Jesus Christ. If Paul wanted us to believe that by "Lord" (kyrios) he meant "God," he would not used the terms as he did.
Paul tells the Romans that we have peace with God because of what Jesus, our Lord (kyrios), has done for us (Romans 5.1) He also tells the Romans they will be saved if they declare Jesus to be both Lord (kyrios) and the one God raised from the dead (Romans 10.9).
Clearly, Paul does not use the word "Lord" (kyrios) to mean God.
Logos Bible search "I am" WITHIN {Milestone <Mt14.27>} finds 16 Bibles: 9 English and 7 Greek (εἰμί = "I am") while "it is" WITHIN {Milestone <Mt14.27>} finds 83 English Bibles. 1382 Wycliffe has "I am" while 1535 Coverdale & 1536 Tyndale have "it is I" (puzzling translation of 1st person verb εἰμί as 3rd person, especially when textual criticism of Greek shows no variance for ἐγώ εἰμι in Matthew 14:27). If Greek text had been "ἐστιν ἐγώ" then "it is I" would be corresponding 3rd person translation. Humanly not know why English translation changed from "I am" in 1382 to "it is I" in 1535/1536 (suspect translator personal preferences, which may have embedded cultural bias for English phrase).
I respect your linguistic skills, but am persuaded by the translation choice made by the large majority of Bible translation teams.
Disagreement expressions simply lack Jewish legal basis for execution from what "the text says" in the first five books of the Bible.
You assume they had a legitimate "legal basis" for their execution demands. I disagree.
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then faith belief idea can never explain Jewish Blasphemy death penalty where Jesus was put to death (cruxified) for who He said He is. Ancient Jewish diety identity expressions were clearly understood by Jewish religious lawyers and judges, who had memorized every letter of Torah teaching words (basis for Jewish religious law: literally knew the letter of the law). Jewish religious lawyers and judges refused to believe truthfulness of ancient Jewish deity identity expressions by Jesus, as stated in Luke 22:66-71, and described in John 19:11 as greater sin.
I can explain those blasphemy death penalty calls: They were mistakes.
At least one of our faith belief ideas from what "the text says" study results is wrong. Every person chooses what to stubbornly believe.
I agree that we're all capable of stubborn loyalty to our faith beliefs, particularly when we believe those beliefs are grounded in Scripture, truth, reason, and logic.
Clearly our "the text says" study results have different faith belief ideas, which includes how to view/interpret what "the text says".
For me, my faith beliefs come AFTER - that is, as a result of - my engagement with the biblical text.
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then John 14.1 must NOT be a COMMAND from Jesus to believe in Jesus as God (must mean something else, possibly a figure of speech).
Or, it means simply that Jesus wants people who believe in God ALSO to believe in him. To my reading of it, that's what the text says.
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then John 14.1 simply COMMANDS => BE YE BELIEVING in Jesus as God (object of belief to me is One plural unique יהוה God, who has more than one voice).
I welcome you to your understanding of John 14.1.
Clearly reads to me as a variant expression of your faith belief idea 'Since, in my view, Jesus never thought himself to be God' so will 'see no sense in the text that the disciples believe Jesus is "יהוה Lord."', which ignores Jewish understanding: Lord => κύριος => Adonai => יהוה
I welcome you to your reading of my response as a "variant expression" of one of my "faith belief ideas." For me, however, as I have stated perhaps a dozen times in our exchanges, my faith beliefs come AFTER - that is, as a result of - my engagement with the biblical text, not before.
Reminds me of a theological idea from one set of churches: "As man is, God was. As God is, man will become." (while using the name of Jesus, the church doctrine teaches belief that Jesus is NOT God). The 12 year old Jesus knew His Father's house was The Jewish Temple (Luke 2:41-52) so Jesus knew Joseph was NOT his human biological father. Prior to Holy God creating physical realm, Jesus experienced God's Glory (John 17:5) and Love (John 17:24). Jesus knew His voice was clearly distinct from The Father when the only Spirit Being in existence was One unique יהוה God.
To my knowledge, Jesus never spoke of Joseph's role in his biological birth.
With The Father, Jesus lovingly showed the true way to righteous living in Holy God.
With due respect, I don't see how this sentence responds directly to any of the questions I posed, so I ask them again:
If Jesus believed himself to be God, why did he specify that he wasn't doing his own will? Wouldn't his will have been the same as his Father's will if he thought himself to be God? If he thought himself to be God, could his own will have been IN ANY SUBSTANTIVE WAY in contradiction with his Father's will? If not, then why did he say he wasn't doing his own will? (The same distinction is found in the Gethsemane garden scene - "Not my will, but your will.") Why would one who was God choose not to do his own will?
“No one is able to serve two masters. For either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You are not able to serve God and money. (Matthew 6:24 LEB)
The "masters" to whom this verse refers are God and money, NOT God and the one God sent into the world to save and set people free. I am able to love God without despising Jesus, just as I am able to love Jesus without despising God.
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@C Mc posted:
What is this, "Christian Debate" or Christian Negotiation? Jesus is Lord, Savior of humanity and coming King with "resurrection power". This is Truth for these times and eternity! Those who don't accept Jesus's Lordship are without a Savior and salvation. Just because one's little pea-brains can't comprehend the "mysteries" of God, it doesn't mean our God isn't One (Father, Son (Jesus, the Christ), and Holy Spirit). The Bible is an "inspired" Book. Therefore, it takes Divine "Illumination" for maximum comprehension. Human intellect, alone, will not and can not bring a full knowledge of the Self-existing One from "everlasting-to-everlasting".
Given your practice of not responding to my replies in these these forums, CM, in my view, CD is for you more "Christian Proclamation" than Christian "debate" or "negotiation." Debate and negotiation both require engagement with others' views, engagement which, of course, is not possible when you choose not to respond. Proclamation, on the other hand, needs no engagement other than that of the poster with his or her own views... views, which in the case of this post of yours, you have proclaimed vividly. I celebrate your faith in God and Christ, and the central importance you give to what you believe is God's oneness.
FWIW, I accept Jesus' Lordship. I hope that means I am not "without a Savior and salvation," even if my "pea-brains can't comprehend the 'mysteries' of God."
I have to ask: Can people who believe as you do, that God is "One (Father, Son (Jesus, the Christ) and Holy Spirit)," ALSO have "pea-brains," or are we who are "without a Savior and salvation" the only ones so impaired?
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If Greek text had been "ἐστιν ἐγώ" then "it is I" would be corresponding 3rd person translation.
Not necessarily ... as the Greek "I am" legitimately may be translated as "I am {the one}" or "it is I", depending to what question or statement the words are given in response.
Humanly not know why English translation changed from "I am" in 1382 to "it is I" in 1535/1536 (suspect translator personal preferences, which may have embedded cultural bias for English phrase).
See above ... in addition, as language develops over time, something said a certain way in one period may be expressed or stated in a slightly different way and even different wording at a different time.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If believe Jesus is NOT God, then John 14.1 must NOT be a COMMAND from Jesus to believe in Jesus as God (must mean something else, possibly a figure of speech).
It does NOT matter what one believes ... The plain text in John 14:1 says nothing about believing (trusting) in Jesus as God.
Since the text does NOT say anything about Jesus as God, reading such an idea into the text is already an incorrect pre-conceived "faith-belief" assumption.
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then John 14.1 simply COMMANDS => BE YE BELIEVING in Jesus as God (object of belief to me is One plural unique יהוה God, who has more than one voice).
Because there is no text in the Bible which speaks of "One plural unique יהוה God, who has more than one voice", there is no command to believe in such a God.
Plain and simple truth.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 6 Faith belief idea 'Since, in my view, Jesus never thought himself to be God, I can't imagine why he ever would have needed such texts' infers => nothing Jesus said could express being יהוה Lord God so "Lord" and "I AM" spoken by Jesus must have meaning other than deity identification.
@Bill_Coley July 7 ... Do I mean to imply that "nothing Jesus said could express being יהוה Lord God..."? I suppose so given that if Jesus didn't think himself to be God, and his public statements were always consistent with that view, then yes, nothing Jesus said would have expressed his being יהוה Lord God. But the most precise answer is that I meant to imply that nothing Jesus said DID express his being יהוה Lord God. That is, my implication was not about what he COULD have said, but rather about what he actually DID say.
We interpret what Jesus actually said (and how original audience responded) along with Old Covenant prophecies about Jesus in accordance with our faith belief ideas resulting from lots of scripture text studying and praying.
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then any text deity expression about Jesus must be interpreted as clearly distinct and separate from יהוה Lord God. ('Plain and simple truth' according to @Wolfgang)
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then any text deity expression about Jesus is interpreted as truthful consistency.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 6 Personally amazed by Luke 2:41-52 where 12 year old Jesus knew the house of My Father is the Jewish Temple (for worshipping יהוה Lord God). All who heard young Jesus were amazed at His insights and answers over many days of discussion in the Jewish Temple.
@Bill_Coley July 7 In the temple story, Jesus declares God to be his Father; he does NOT declare himself to be God.
The 12 year old Jesus knew His human biological father was NOT Joseph, yet went with Joseph & Mary (His human biological mother) to Nazareth.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 6 Why would the devil simply leave after completing temptation ?
@Bill_Coley July 7 You'll have to ask Luke, the Gospel writer, since he's the one who reports the devil left having "completed every temptation" (Luke 4.13, LEB). My understanding of the text is that the devil left because he had fulfilled his role in the scene. The Spirit had led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted (Matthew 4.1; Luke 4.1; Mark 1.12). When the devil had created the temptations the Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness to experience, the devil left.
My text understanding is the devil obeying command spoken by Jesus: "Go away, Satan" (Matthew 4:10-11) completed temptation => And when the devil had completed every temptation, he departed from him until a favorable time. * (Luke 4:13 LEB) * for a while => implies devil wanted to tempt more (consistent with evil "father of lies" character change after pridefully choosing to sin against God).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 6 The devil keeps stalking for someone to devour (1 Peter 5:8-9 so would have continued tempting Jesus to sin). Also, the devil does not let his prisoners go (Isaiah 14:17) and put a thought in Peter's mind (Matthew 16:21-23). In contrast, יהוה Yahweh sets prisoners free; (Psalm 146:7) as does Jesus (John 8:31-38). Jesus read Isaiah 61:1-2 (in Luke 4:18-19), which includes '... to proclaim release to the captives and liberation to those who are bound,' (Isaiah 61:1 LEB) followed by Jesus saying: “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” (Luke 4:20 LEB). In the New Testament, the text says the devil and all demons obeyed every command spoken by Jesus. Human disciples of Jesus were NOT able to verbally command every demon to obey (Matthew 17:14-20, Mark 9:14-29, Luke 9:37-43)
@Bill_Coley July 7 Comments about two of the texts you cite:
@Bill_Coley July 7 * 1 Peter 5.8-9 describes the devil's general behavior, but NOT the devil's behavior in Jesus' temptation, wherein he creates temptations which the Spirit had led Jesus into the wilderness to experience.
We agree about the devil's general behavior. Out of character for evil devil is to simply stop tempting on own accord. The devil intensely desires every human to be tormented in hell, clearly separated from God's Love. Every human individually chooses what to Love ❤️ most.
@Bill_Coley July 7 * Isaiah 14.17 is NOT about the devil; it's part of a larger commentary about the king of Babylon (Isaiah 14.4; the larger commentary itself is Isaiah 14.3-20).
We disagree about Isaiah 14:3-23 taunt for the king of Babylon being only about the king of Babylon, especially Isaiah 14:12-21 (falling from heaven reminds me of Luke 10:18). Phrase "like father, like son" has me wondering about king of Babylon response to taunting words that includes description about the devil: how many thoughts from/about the devil felt pridefully owned by the king of Babylon ?
@Bill_Coley July 7 The Gospels typically describe Jesus' commands to demons as his casting them out. There is no such description attached to Matthew's report of the temptation scene. Therefore, given that the Spirit had led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted, that according to Luke's report, the devil left when he had "completed every temptation," and in the absence of casting out imagery in any of the accounts, in my view it's fair to conclude the devil left because he had finished tempting, not because Jesus had ordered him to leave.
Puzzling idea leap conclusion. Gospels include two non-casting out commands by Jesus: "Go away, Satan" ? (Matthew 4:10-11) "Get behind me, Satan" in Matthew 16:23 & Mark 8:33
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 6 For the fourth time, If believe Jesus is NOT God, Why did the devil obey command by Jesus: "Go away, Satan" ? (Matthew 4:10-11)
@Bill_Coley July 7 ... Hence, I can't tell you why the devil obeyed Jesus' command because I don't think the devil left in response to that command.
Thank you for expressing your faith belief view (interpretation) about a command spoken by the man Jesus lacking God's power/authority => simply disagrees with what "the text says" in Matthew 4:10-11
@Bill_Coley July 7 I've answered your question directly in two previous posts, and with this post, a third time. I respect your disapproval of my response, but it was and remains a direct response.
My disapproval reflects "direct responses" lacked plausible reason for the devil to obey command by Jesus. Who is Jesus spiritually that the devil, all demons, nature (wind & waves), ... obeyed every command spoken by the man Jesus ? (prior to death, burial, resurrection, & exaltation of Jesus)
@Bill_Coley July 7 What do you think Luke means when he doesn't tell us Jesus told the devil to leave, but instead tells us the devil left when he had "completed every temptation"?
To me, when Luke rearranged temptation order for thematic emphasis, command by Jesus was supplanted by "completed every temptation"
Highest rated commentary on Luke => https://www.bestcommentaries.com/luke/ has Luke 4:1-13 Sources and Historicity section that includes:
Given that the basic account has roots in Jesus, the issue of verbal agreement and divergence in the various Synoptic accounts still remains. Mark 1:12–13 contains only a brief remark about this event and lacks dialogue and detail. On the other hand, Matt. 4:1–11 is so close to Luke’s account that most commentators see a written source shared by Matthew and Luke (most speak of Q here: Creed 1930: 61; Luce 1933: 115; Manson 1949: 42–43; Wiefel 1988: 99; Bovon 1989: 193; Fitzmyer 1981: 507; Tiede 1988: 98; C. F. Evans 1990: 256). However, a key point of agreement with Mark 1:12–13—the association of testing with the wilderness and with the period of forty days—suggests that Luke is also aware of material like that in Mark. Yet Mark’s failure to give details about this event leads some to suggest that Mark did not know the body of tradition that Matthew and Luke share. In fact, there are enough small, but theologically irrelevant differences between Matthew and Luke that to posit the same exact written source for both of them seems difficult. For example, why do Matt. 4:3 and Luke 4:3 differ on the name of Satan (the tempter versus the devil)? Or why does Matt. 4:3 work with the plural stones and loaves, while Luke 4:3 has the singular? Why is Luke’s version of the offer of the kingdoms (4:6) much fuller than Matthew’s? Why is Matthew’s citation of Deut. 8:3 so much longer than Luke’s (see the additional note on 4:4 for details)? What about the differences in Matt. 4:7 and Luke 4:12 (see the additional note on 4:12)? Why does Luke 4:9 alone say “from here” (see the exegesis of 4:9)? Why does Luke omit a reference to angels in 4:13? In this pericope Matthew and Luke are dealing with distinct yet very similar traditions (distinct versions of Q?). Luke is probably responsible for the account’s introduction and conclusion (4:1–2, 13).
The major distinction between the accounts is the order of the temptations. In Matthew, the trip to the mountain to see the kingdoms of the world is the final temptation, while for Luke the trip to the top of the temple is the last temptation. Since it is clear that six temptations are not to be posited, it is also clear that one of the Gospel writers has rearranged the order for literary reasons. The event shows that the Gospel writers are not averse to arranging materials for the sake of topical or theological concerns, a point that must be kept in mind when examining other pericopes as well.
Which writer rearranged the sequence? Schürmann argues that Matthew rearranged the account because he develops the site of the mountain as a significant theological locale of revelation, a point that is supported by the ending of Matthew’s Gospel (28:16–20) on a mountain. But Fitzmyer (1981: 507–8) and Schulz (1972: 177 esp. n. 2, who also traces the debate’s history) argue more persuasively for a Lucan rearrangement. Fitzmyer notes that Matthew’s order is a natural progression—desert, building pinnacle, mountaintop—and that the Matthean citations of Deuteronomy appear in reverse canonical order (Deut. 8:3; 6:16; 6:13). In addition, the clearest temporal adverbs occur only in Matthew (e.g., πάλιν in 4:8, τότε in 4:10, and the summary dismissal of Satan—details that Luke lacks). Finally, as Schulz makes clear, Luke has a theological motive for his rearrangement. For Luke, Jerusalem is the climactic locale of conflict in Jesus’ life (19:45–24:53). Luke’s rearrangement places the emphasis on the Jerusalem temple temptation as the decisive one. Goulder (1989: 294) agrees, but prefers to see the phrase you shall not tempt the Lord your God as climactic, forming an inclusio on temptation, rather than seeing Jerusalem as the motive. Most commentators accept Matthew’s order as original (Ellis 1974: 94; Schweizer 1984: 82; Hendriksen 1978: 232; Tiede 1988: 98). Plummer 1896: 110 refuses to choose either way.
Darrell L. Bock, Luke: 1:1–9:50, vol. 1, Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 1994), 363–366.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 6 If your faith belief idea 'Since, in my view, Jesus never thought himself to be God' is valid, then Jesus should have immediately corrected Thomas after "My Lord and My God!" in John 20:28, but instead of correction, 'Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.”' (John 20:29 LEB). Jesus receiving יהוה Lord God worship from Thomas simply contrasts with Angel correcting John's worship in Revelation 22:8-11.
@Bill_Coley July 7 Are you saying Jesus should have "immediately corrected" Thomas the way he immediately corrected the rich man who called him "good teacher" by saying only God was good? (Mark 10.17-18)
Lack of God correction by Jesus disagrees with your faith belief idea 'Since, in my view, Jesus never thought himself to be God'
@Bill_Coley July 7 I don't read Thomas' word to Jesus as a declaration that Jesus is God. Rather, I take it as his confession to the truth of what Jesus had told him: when he saw Jesus, he saw the Father, that he was in the Father and the Father was in him (John 14.6-7).
What in the John 20:24-29 text connects "My יהוה Lord and My God!" by Thomas with last supper discourse (John 13-16) at least 10 days earlier ?
Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who was called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples said to him, “We have seen the יהוה Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and put my finger into the mark of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will never believe!” And after eight days his disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Although the doors had been shut, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said, “Peace to you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Place your finger here and see my hands, and place your hand and put it into my side. And do not be unbelieving, but believing!” Thomas answered and said to him, “My יהוה Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, have you believed? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.” (John 20:24-29 LEB)
My thought about Thomas is intense grief so he refused to believe all words spoken by others about physically resurrected Jesus.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 23 Quoting start of Micah 5:2 (in Matthew 2:6) should bring more Biblical context to mind
@Bill_Coley June 24 The Micah 5 passage says nothing to change the fact that the wise men traveled to Bethlehem to worship one they believed was "the newborn King of the Jews."
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 6 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, too small to be among the clans of Judah, from you one will go out for me, to be ruler in Israel; and his origins are from of old, from ancient days. (Micah 5:2 LEB) so "the newborn King of the Jews" ruler in Israel has origins from of old, from ancient days.
@Bill_Coley July 7 Some comments about the Micah 5 text:
@Bill_Coley July 7 * In context, it DOES NOT say the one who will come forth from Bethlehem will be God. Rather, it says the one who will come forth will do so God (Micah 5.2, LEB).
@Bill_Coley July 7 * The prophet says the one who will come forth from Bethlehem will "stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of Jahweh, in the majesty of the name of " (Micah 5.4, LEB). So the one who will come forth will have a God, and that God's name will be Jahweh.
@Bill_Coley July 7 * Hence, the text does NOT say the one who will come forth will be God.
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then one sent by/for God CANNOT be God.
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then one sent by/for God CAN be God, who worships One plural unique יהוה God.
@Bill_Coley July 7 * On what textual basis do you contend that the Micah 5 verse explains why the wise men followed the star?
The Jew Matthew wrote a Gospel for Jews so they could believe Jesus is their Messiah יהוה Lord God, who worships The Father יהוה God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 6 Puzzling idea since Jesus knew about His human body death and His resurrection authority => “I am the good shepherd, and I know my own, and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father, and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep which are not from this fold. I must bring these also, and they will hear my voice, and they will become one flock—one shepherd. Because of this the Father loves me, because I lay down my life so that I may take possession of it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down voluntarily. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take possession of it again. This commandment I received from my Father.” (John 10:14-18 LEB)
@Bill_Coley July 7 And where did Jesus get the authority to lay down his life (crucifixion) and pick it back up (resurrection)? John's Gospel seems clearly to say that any authority Jesus had came from God, the one he called his "Father":
Please look at Biblical text passages for "I", me, and 3rd person statements by Jesus expressing will of Jesus to do The Father's will: John 5:19-30, John 12:44-50, John 13:1-20
@Bill_Coley July 7 * John 5.22: God gives Jesus the "absolute" authority to judge
The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. (John 5:23 LEB)
@Bill_Coley July 7 * John 12.49: God gives Jesus the authority to speak and what to say
I have come as a light into the world, in order that everyone who believes in me will not remain in the darkness. (John 12:46 LEB) Many humans who have been to heaven/hell describe Jesus as Holy Light, like Mount of Transfiguration: Matthew 7:1-13, Mark 9:2-13, Luke 9:28-36. Chapter 15 "Guilty" in 'Climbing into Eternity: My Descent into Hell and Flight to Heaven' includes description of tormenting place in hell today for those who chose to love religion the most over Loving ❤️God first. After Michele's suicide (overdose of 100+ pills), chapter 15 has desperate dialog:
What have I done, my God, what have I done? I screamed. God, please don’t send me there, please forgive me,” I begged in agony.
I cannot, Michele. It is only the blood of My Son that can bring forgiveness.
Desperate, I said, God, I stood in front of that church with Bridget and said the sinner’s prayer.
Yes, you did.
Can’t that save me?
Michele, you acknowledged my Son many times, but most religious people do. You never accepted My precious Son Jesus as Lord and Savior, who died on the cross for you. My Son is the one and only sacrifice and High Priest. I accept nothing else. I am the God who sees into the hearts and thoughts of a man. You did not mean it when you said the sinner’s prayer.
God was right. He had seen right into my heart that night in Spring Valley Church. I had gone up to the front of the church and repeated the words saying, “Jesus is the Son of God, and He died on the cross for our sins and rose again and is now sitting on the right hand of God.” But it did not really mean anything to me. I had acknowledged that Jesus was the Son of God, yes, but I had never really accepted Jesus as Lord of all, the One who had shed His blood for me so I could be forgiven.
Suddenly, as if a light had been clicked on, I saw it! On breathing out His last breath on earth, Jesus had come down to this place of hell, to the devil’s kingdom, his domain and territory. Jesus had done this so He could finally overcome the devil once and for all, in his domain, and rightfully claim the keys of death from him. This was the final blow against the devil, Lucifer. Now the devil stood completely defeated by Jesus Christ.
I cried out, Oh, God Almighty, I am so sorry, I am so sorry. I now understand! What have I done? Jesus, what have I done to You?
The fear that was filling me about my eternal fate was replaced with soul-wrenching remorse and repentance. I had missed telling Jesus He is Lord on earth, but I was not going to enter my doom before telling Jesus He is Lord.
I then turned my whole being to Jesus. I knew He was not there physically, but I also knew He would be able to hear me. I shouted with all that was in me, Jesus, I am sorry! Forgive me! It is only through You! You are Lord of all! You are the Christ, the Savior! You are the only begotten Son of God. Oh, Lord Jesus, please forgive me before I go into my doom! Please forgive me before you take Your hand of protection off me! Please let me hear You forgive me before I enter the place of torture and hell I deserve.
As I said this, I bowed my spirit and soul before Him. I knew He would see my heart, and I hoped with my whole soul He would forgive me. Before I entered the place of my doom for eternity, I wanted Jesus to see I had bowed down and worshipped Him as Lord. I hoped the amoeba-ape, Lucifer, the devil, and all his soldiers were also watching.
I shouted out, Jesus is Lord!
The angry, snarling voice of the devil cursed me. It seemed to resonate throughout hell, and be followed by the cursing and blaspheming of all the hideous demons present.
Pulford, Michele. Climbing Into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven (pp. 171-172). Kindle Edition.
Michele's description about Jesus is consistent with Ephesians 4:7-10 (with Michele's story providing more details about awful torments of hell). Michele believing & saying "Jesus is יהוה Lord" resulted in brilliant light of Jesus lifting her out of hell, consistent with John 12:46
@Bill_Coley July 7 * John 13.3: God gives Jesus the authority to judge everyone because he (Jesus) is the Son of Man
“I am not speaking about all of you. I know whom I have chosen, but in order that the scripture would be fulfilled, ‘The one who eats my bread has lifted up his heel against me.’ (John 13:18 LEB)
@Bill_Coley July 7 * John 17.2: God gives Jesus authority over everyone
When God was the only Spiritual Being in existence, Jesus experiened God's Glory (John 17:5) and God's Love (John 17:24).
@Bill_Coley July 7 Jesus had the authority God had given him. Hence, in my view, the John 10 passage does not support your reference to Jesus as the "God Shepherd."
John 10:14-18 text includes Jesus expressing His free will/authority to do The Father's will => No one takes it from me, but I lay it down voluntarily. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take possession of it again. This commandment I received from my Father.” (John 10:18 LEB)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus July 6 My faith belief sees Jesus deity identification in John 10:14-18 since humans do not have authority (nor ability) to resurrect themself after human body death. In human history, the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus are verifiable facts. To me, all of One unique God resurrected Jesus.
@Bill_Coley July 7 Your faith belief sees.... In my view, here again your faith belief has preceded your engagement with a biblical text that does not support your view. As I just noted, Jesus had authority only because God had given it to him. In my view, every human has ANY authority or ability that God gives them.
Now the end of all things draws near. Therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for your prayers. Above all, keep your love for one another constant, because love covers a large number of sins. Be hospitable to one another without complaining. Just as each one has received a gift, use it for serving one another, as good stewards of the varied grace of God. If anyone speaks, let it be as the oracles of God; if anyone serves, let it be as by the strength that God provides, so that in all things God will be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom is the glory and the power forever and ever. Amen. (1 Peter 4:7-11 LEB)
@Bill_Coley July 7 That Jesus had the authority to pick his life back up does NOT mean he raised himself. It means he knew physical death would not be the end of his life.
My interpretation of the text says Jesus knew He had God authority & ability to resurrect Himself.
FYI: time to post my longish comments (draft length warnings), hoping to reply later about rest of @Bill_Coley July 7 post comments.
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus If believe Jesus is NOT God, then any text deity expression about Jesus must be interpreted as clearly distinct and separate from יהוה Lord God. ('Plain and simple truth' according to @Wolfgang)
Contrast: if believe Jesus is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, then any text deity expression about Jesus is interpreted as truthful consistency.
NO ... the question is NOT about what "faith belief" you have when you read the Scriptures. IF you approach Scripture that way, you are making YOUR faith belief (and as such yourself) the authority by which you interpret the Bible.
Simple and plain truth however is: One should have Scripture and its text as the authority by which one may understand the Scriptures, and AFTER that adjust what one believes accordingly.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus When God was the only Spiritual Being in existence, Jesus experiened God's Glory (John 17:5) and God's Love (John 17:24).
Does the text in John 17:5 and John 17:24 say that Jesus experienced God's glory and God's love? It seems to me, that your faith belief has turned what the verses say into what you would like them to say ...
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JN 17:5 "And now, Father, you glorify me ⌊at your side⌋ with the glory that I had ⌊at your side⌋ before the world existed". How do you read this text, Wolfgang? Are you doing what you accused @Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus of doing? CM
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