A SCRIPTURE based discussion of the Trinity
Comments
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
Caution is the deceptiveness of human heart (Isaiah 59:13 '... uttering words of deception from the heart'), which clearly interprets 'the text itself' using personal faith belief frame of reference. Caution: phrase "the text itself" can be truthful (consistent with Holy God) OR deceptive appeal to an unnamed authority (our spiritual adversary is a master manipulator of what "the text itself" says: e.g. left out a Psalm 91 phrase in Matthew 4:6 when tempting Jesus to sin). FWIW: caution also applies to me (want to keep learning Holy God's Truth, not repeat my own understanding).
To interpret Scripture from the frame of reference of the text itself is, basically by definition, to avoid "words of deception from the heart," "personal faith beliefs," or the manipulation of "spiritual adversar(ies)."
Concur with these words: albeit am reading these words using my faith belief frame of reference so trusting in God = trusting in Jesus.
You assert the interpretive role of one of your personal faith beliefs just one paragraph after warning me and yourself about "the deceptiveness of human heart" when using "personal faith belief frame(s) of reference."
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples—if you have love for one another.” (John 13:34-35 LEB) that had "my disciples" jump out at me: if Jesus is not God, then "my disciples" (of Jesus) simply conflicts with the greatest command: “Hear, Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is unique. And you shall love Yahweh your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your might. (Deuteronomy 6:4-5 LEB)
The Shema does NOT prohibit discipleship among humans; it describes the the fullness of the love humans are to have for God. There is no conflict whatsoever between the disciples' following Jesus while at the same time wholly loving a distinct, separate, unique, non-Jesus God.
If believe Jesus & The Father = One Yahweh God, then being a disciple of Jesus = being a disciple of Yahweh.
Yes. This is of course true. Then again, it's also true that if 3x2=12, then 3x2x2=24.
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then being a disciple of Jesus means disobeying greatest command: something is not Loving God all the way.
For the reasons stated above, your claim is not true. Following Jesus did NOT mean the disciples could not at the same time love God "all the way."
Curious what belief in God and belief in Jesus means to you ? ('distinction' & 'draws no connection between the two' reads to me as believing in more than One God Spirit)
Believe in = Trust.
Trust God's provision, love, promise, etc. Trust that Jesus spoke and taught truth, offers us life, died, was raised, and now lives on high as our exalted Lord.
There is no hint whatsoever in my words of "more than one God Spirit." Your reading of my words is mistaken.
Greek text simply has identical words for believing in God as believing in Jesus: same verb & same preposition (direction for belief). Only difference is the object of belief: The God also Jesus (me).
The "only difference" is that one directive commands trust in God, and the other directive commands trust in Jesus. To my reading, that's a VERY BIG "only difference." Had Jesus believed himself to be God, why didn't he take that moment to declare it? What better time to make what would have been the most profound assertion of his earthly ministry: "Believe in God... who, by the way, is me!" But he doesn't do it... because he doesn't believe himself to be God.
John 17:3 has καὶ between "the only true God and Jesus Christ". Greek word καὶ range of meaning includes: and, even, also.
I know how the translators treat the text: Jesus calls God the only God, and then makes a separate reference to himself.
Per Mark 10:17-22 context, what did a rich individual (someone) choose to do after => And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: Go, sell all that you have, and give the proceeds to the poor—and you will have treasure in heaven—and come, follow me.” What did that rich man really, really, really Love ❤️the most ? What insight did Jesus have about that person's heart when Jesus earlier asked him: "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. ...
None of this addresses the clear meaning of Jesus' response in the Mark 10 passage: Why do you call me good, when only God is good? Those words, that message, means Jesus does not see himself as God.
What changed in Mary when Jesus said her name in John 20:16 ? Suspect every cell in her body jumped after hearing Holy God presence in resurrected Jesus say her name (recently described in "Climbing into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven" by Michele Pulford). Mary did not need any more words from Jesus to describe spiritually what was inside the resurrected body of Jesus. Humanly can easily imagine Mary wanting to hold Jesus as tightly as possible. Nothing in John 20:17 describes The Word (God) spirit inside Jesus, who ❤️ Loves The Father God.
None of this addresses the content of what the resurrected Jesus said to Mary: Tell my disciples that I'm ascending to my Father and theirs, to my God and theirs. Again the message is clear. Jesus believes that the one he calls his own Father and God is ALSO his disciples' Father and God.
That's what the text itself says.
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@Bill_Coley There is no conflict whatsoever between the disciples' following Jesus while at the same time wholly loving a distinct, separate, unique, non-Jesus God.
There is not only no such conflict, but rather belief in Jesus=God would cause a conflict because such belief actually denies the true Messiah, the man Jesus whom God made both lord and Christ (Messiah).
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus John 17:3 has καὶ between "the only true God and Jesus Christ". Greek word καὶ range of meaning includes: and, even, also.
And how would the verse then be translated and what meaning would such translation give Jesus' words?
PS: Please note, there is no need to quote Greek lexicons and dictionaries or grammars when answering the above question asked of you. Just provide the verse with your translation using the proper meaning for καὶ and how you then would understand what Jesus said.
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Well summed up!
It goes against (anti) what Christ taught.
AntiChrist.
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Seems to me that the translation and rendering of the Hebrew יהוה as "Jehovah" has been replaced by a linguistically more accurate rendering by transliterating it as "Yahweh"
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The foremost Hebrew Scholar disagrees with you.
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I don't care about "foremost" or other scholar ...😉 I do like however what I could read there !!
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Heh! I'm starting to like you...again...
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Currently reading "Climbing Into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven" by Michele Pulford
This is my story of God Almighty’s never-ending forgiveness, love and grace which has followed me throughout the ages. After a sexual pervert’s attack at ten years of age, I invited evil into my life. I became an embittered, hateful teenager consumed by acute anorexia with murderous hate towards men. This led me into an abusive marriage of two years which ended with a failed murder attempt. I had landed up DOA at my local hospital from premeditated suicide. On dying, I was taken to the evil and fiery demon-infested accusing, tormenting pit of hell. It was here where the miraculous Light and Life of Jesus ripped through and rescued me.
I began my new life with my best friend, the Holy Spirit. Miraculously I married my high school sweetheart. The miraculous of God’s mercy and grace continued when after being declared completely barren, God’s love and grace stepped in resulting with me giving birth to a son and a daughter. Our family joy was shadowed by my soul-destroying bulimic addiction which God’s grace eventually set me free from. The life-death challenges did not end there. I found myself in an intense battle with witchdoctors as well with the dangers of onset anaphylactic attacks. It was one of these attacks that found me dying once again, with my husband and doctor watching. This time I was taken to the gates of heaven and glory. This is my story of life and death, heaven and hell, blessing and cursing.
Chapters 14 & 15 include horrific description of Hell (dead beings & demons being tormented) plus Michele's conversations with God. Every human chooses what to really, really, really Love ❤️the most. Hell has a place for those who Love ❤️ church (human organizations) over God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 8 If believe Jesus & The Father = One Yahweh God, then being a disciple of Jesus = being a disciple of Yahweh.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 8 If believe Jesus is NOT God, then being a disciple of Jesus means disobeying greatest command: something is not Loving God all the way.
@Wolfgang June 9 Believing that Jesus is God makes Jesus out to be his own Father (and, please don't come with your "different voices in one God" faith belief trying to 'explain' one error with the next error)
“I, Jesus, sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” (Revelation 22:16 LEB) To me, The Word was part of e-lo-HEEM אֱלֹהִ֜ים God (plural) who breathed life into dust to create the first human man (the root of David). According to God The Father's perfect will (& perfect timing), the idea 'Believing that Jesus is God makes Jesus out to be his own Father' agrees with The Word (part of e-lo-HEEM אֱלֹהִ֜ים God who created human life) taking on human flesh to become the promised son of David.
For a child has been born for us; a son has been given to us. And the dominion will be on his shoulder, and his name is called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. His dominion will grow continually, and to peace there will be no end on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and sustain it with justice and righteousness now and forever. The zeal of Yahweh of hosts will do this. (Isaiah 9:6-7 LEB) Current Jewish description of Moshiach (Messiah) includes 'Melech HaMoshiach (the King Messiah)' and 'man of G-d'
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 8 Greek text simply has identical words for believing in God as believing in Jesus: same verb & same preposition (direction for belief). Only difference is the object of belief: The God also Jesus (me).
@Wolfgang June 9 God and Jesus are TWO distinct and very different entities, beings, persons ... Jesus simply told the disciples to trust God (that He would do what He promised) and to trust Jesus (me) that he was doing and carrying out what God had designated for him to do => e.g. that he would be resurrected from the dead by God, etc.
Thank you for answering my June 7 question: "From your faith belief (Jesus is an annointed human from God, but not God) frame of reference, what did Jesus command in John 14:1 ?" We disagree about who Jesus truly is.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 8 John 17:3 has καὶ between "the only true God and Jesus Christ". Greek word καὶ range of meaning includes: and, even, also.
@Wolfgang June 9 And how would the verse then be translated and what meaning would such translation give Jesus' words?
αὕτη δέ ἐστιν ἡ αἰώνιος ζωὴ ἵνα γινώσκωσι σὲ τὸν μόνον ἀληθινὸν θεὸν καὶ ὃν ἀπέστειλας Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν. (John 17:3 SBLGNT)
this now is being the eternal life that they know you the only true God and/also whom thou sent Jesus Christ. (my translation: καὶ => and/also)
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. (John 17:3 LEB)
89.92 καί: a marker of coordinate relations—‘and.’ Ἰάκωβος καὶ Ἰωσὴφ καὶ Σίμων καὶ Ἰούδας ‘James and Joseph and Simon and Judas’ Mt 13:55; χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ‘grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ’ Ro 1:7; κεκένωται ἡ πίστις καὶ κατήργηται ἡ ἐπαγγελία ‘faith means nothing and the promise is ineffectual’ Ro 4:14.
Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 788–789.
FYI: Louw-Nida has various uses of καὶ assigned into nine Semantic Domains.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 8 Caution is the deceptiveness of human heart (Isaiah 59:13 '... uttering words of deception from the heart'), which clearly interprets 'the text itself' using personal faith belief frame of reference. Caution: phrase "the text itself" can be truthful (consistent with Holy God) OR deceptive appeal to an unnamed authority (our spiritual adversary is a master manipulator of what "the text itself" says: e.g. left out a Psalm 91 phrase in Matthew 4:6 when tempting Jesus to sin). FWIW: caution also applies to me (want to keep learning Holy God's Truth, not repeat my own understanding).
@Bill_Coley June 9 To interpret Scripture from the frame of reference of the text itself is, basically by definition, to avoid "words of deception from the heart," "personal faith beliefs," or the manipulation of "spiritual adversar(ies)."
Definition theory does not match human implementation (personal faith belief frame of reference is more important to human than definition).
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then "the text itself" clearly shows God being distinct from Jesus (as expressed recently in a number of CD threads)
If believe Jesus and The Father are One יהוה God, then "the text itself" shows One plural unique יהוה God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 8 ... By this everyone will know that you are my disciples—if you have love for one another.” (John 13:34-35 LEB) that had "my disciples" jump out at me: if Jesus is not God, then "my disciples" (of Jesus) simply conflicts with the greatest command: “Hear, Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is unique. And you shall love Yahweh your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your might. (Deuteronomy 6:4-5 LEB)
@Bill_Coley June 9 The Shema does NOT prohibit discipleship among humans; it describes the the fullness of the love humans are to have for God. There is no conflict whatsoever between the disciples' following Jesus while at the same time wholly loving a distinct, separate, unique, non-Jesus God.
Human devotion following Jesus necessarily means that human is NOT Loving a distinct, separate, unique, non-Jesus God with ALL the human is. The distinct, separate, unique, non-Jesus God is a Jealous God: “There shall be for you no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself a divine image with any form that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth below or that is in the water below the earth. You will not bow down to them, and you will not serve them, because I am Yahweh your God, a jealous God, punishing the guilt of the parents on the children on the third and on the fourth generations of those hating me, and showing loyal love to thousands of generations of those loving me and of those keeping my commandments. “You shall not misuse the name of Yahweh your God, because Yahweh will not leave unpunished anyone who misuses his name. (Exodus 20:3-7 LEB)
Choosing to serve Jesus as a disciple while believing Jesus is NOT God => violates both The Shema and Ten Commandments. Not ALL of the human is choosing to Love ❤️ God (by choosing something other than God to serve).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 8 If believe Jesus & The Father = One Yahweh God, then being a disciple of Jesus = being a disciple of Yahweh.
@Bill_Coley June 9 Yes. This is of course true.
We agree.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 8 Greek text simply has identical words for believing in God as believing in Jesus: same verb & same preposition (direction for belief). Only difference is the object of belief: The God also Jesus (me).
@Bill_Coley June 9 The "only difference" is that one directive commands trust in God, and the other directive commands trust in Jesus. To my reading, that's a VERY BIG "only difference." Had Jesus believed himself to be God, why didn't he take that moment to declare it? What better time to make what would have been the most profound assertion of his earthly ministry: "Believe in God... who, by the way, is me!" But he doesn't do it... because he doesn't believe himself to be God.
Jews said Lord = κύριος = Adonai => when reading יהוה from Scriptures. Disciples called Jesus 'Lord' => יהוה with Jesus confirming Holy Truth:
You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and you speak correctly, for I am. (John 13:13 LEB)
Bible Search for "ἐγώ εἰμί" in SBLGNT includes four "I am" God identifications spoken by Jesus during the last supper discourse written by John:
From now on I am telling you before it happens, in order that when it happens you may believe that I am. (John 13:39 LEB sans "he"* addition)
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6 LEB)
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. (John 15:1 LEB)
“I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in me and I in him—this one bears much fruit, for apart from me you are not able to do anything. (John 15:5 LEB)
Keep Smiling 😊
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Keeping the LONG WINDED posts!
BTW- didn't you read where Revelation SPELLS OUT what the Lake of Fire REALY symbolizes?
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
Definition theory does not match human implementation (personal faith belief frame of reference is more important to human than definition).
From the responses that you've posted to me over the many months of our Trinity-based conversations, I think it's clear that for you, you're correct. This latest exchange of ours has been abounded with examples of your importing personal faith into texts, thereby producing interpretations that have no textual foundation.
I believe I have a much better track record in this area. If a text doesn't say something, in general, I don't claim that it does. If a text DOES say something, I WILL claim that it does. I may agree or disagree - like or dislike - the "something" that the text says, but if it's in there, I have to acknowledge it; if it's not in there, I have to acknowledge that it's not. And as you have discovered, when you claim a text says something that I don't believe it says - something that happens frequently - I make that clear too.
If believe Jesus is NOT God, then "the text itself" clearly shows God being distinct from Jesus (as expressed recently in a number of CD threads)
We've been down this road SO MANY TIMES, I can't believe I still have to make the following point: If for Bible interpreters, the biblical text comes first - if the text shapes their faith beliefs rather than their faith belief shaping the text - there is NO issue.
EXAMPLE: In order for Jesus to be God, in my view, the biblical text, NOT MY OR YOUR FAITH BELIEF, must say so. In my view, the biblical text does not say Jesus is God, and in fact, says definitively that Jesus is not God. Because the text comes before my faith belief, I decided my faith belief AFTER studying the biblical text.
As I have reported on more than one occasion in these threads, for decades I was a passionate advocate of Trinitarian theology. I changed my faith belief only AFTER I spent a decade studying the biblical text on the subject.
FIRST TEXT, THEN BELIEF.
If believe Jesus and The Father are One יהוה God, then "the text itself" shows One plural unique יהוה God.
You are of course welcome to this faith belief, one, in my view, however, that is not supported by the biblical text.
Human devotion following Jesus necessarily means that human is NOT Loving a distinct, separate, unique, non-Jesus God with ALL the human is. The distinct, separate, unique, non-Jesus God is a Jealous God: “There shall be for you no other gods before me. “
Your claim is absurd. OF COURSE one can be humanly devoted to another human and still love God in accordance with the Shema.
- What did Jesus say when asked to identify the greatest commandment? To love God with all heart, mind, soul, and strength.... Except there was more, wasn't there? Jesus said there was a second commandment that was "equally important:" to love our neighbors as we love ourselves (Matthew 22.39).
- Paul told the Galatians that "the whole law" could be summed up as a command to love neighbor as self (Galatians 5.14). Clearly, Paul believed we could be devoted to each other while we also loved God.
- The writer of Ephesians told husbands to "love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man who loves his wife actually shows love for himself" (Ephesians 5.28). (The writer also told wives to "submit" to their husbands, but I'm not going there!) If that's not "devotion" to another human being, I don't know what is.
- Paul directed the church in Rome to be "devoted to one another in brotherly love, esteeming one another more highly in honor" (Romans 12.10, LEB).
- Jesus told his disciples that the world would know they were his followers by the way they loved (agape) each other (John 13.35). Agape love isn't a form of devotion to another person?
OF COURSE we can be devoted to Jesus and still the love God who sent him. Jesus all but made the connection for us when he asked why someone called him "good" when only God was good. Translation: You can follow my teachings, but only God is God (Luke 18.19).
Choosing to serve Jesus as a disciple while believing Jesus is NOT God => violates both The Shema and Ten Commandments. Not ALL of the human is choosing to Love ❤️ God (by choosing something other than God to serve).
Again, simply not true.
We agree.
We agree on your hypothetical, that IF we believe Jesus and the Father are one God, then.... But as you very clearly know, we do NOT agree that Jesus and the Father are one God, a fact that renders your hypothetical moot.
Jews said Lord = κύριος = Adonai => when reading יהוה from Scriptures. Disciples called Jesus 'Lord' => יהוה with Jesus confirming Holy Truth:
You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and you speak correctly, for I am. (John 13:13 LEB)
Jesus calls himself their Lord or "master." He does NOT call himself their God.
At multiple points in the post-Gospel New testament, writers make a clear distinction between God and Jesus as "Lord":
- Philippians 2.10-11 - knees bow and tongues confess that Jesus is "Lord" to the glory of God, the Father
- 1 Thessalonians 3.11 - Paul asks that God their Father and the Lord Jesus direct him to the Thessalonians
- 2 Thessalonians 2.16 - "May the Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father...."
The distinction between the two is both obvious and recurring.
Bible Search for "ἐγώ εἰμί" in SBLGNT includes four "I am"
Jesus' use of the words "I am" DO NOT report a belief that he is God. In most of the examples you cite, when Jesus says "I am," he's simply confirming some piece of his identity. e.g. He IS their teacher and Lord. He IS the way, the truth, and the life. He IS the true vine.
Your claim is not true.
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“Not only that—count yourselves blessed every time people put you down or throw you out or speak lies about you to discredit me. What it means is that the truth is too close for comfort and they are uncomfortable. You can be glad when that happens—give a cheer, even!—for though they don’t like it, I do! And all heaven applauds. And know that you are in good company. My prophets and witnesses have always gotten into this kind of trouble. (Matthew 5:11-12 The Message)
My apologies for my verse number typographical mistake near the end of my LONG WINDED June 9 post: John 13:39 should have been John 13:19
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 8 Greek text simply has identical words for believing in God as believing in Jesus: same verb & same preposition (direction for belief). Only difference is the object of belief: The God also Jesus (me).
@Bill_Coley June 9 The "only difference" is that one directive commands trust in God, and the other directive commands trust in Jesus. To my reading, that's a VERY BIG "only difference." Had Jesus believed himself to be God, why didn't he take that moment to declare it? What better time to make what would have been the most profound assertion of his earthly ministry: "Believe in God... who, by the way, is me!" But he doesn't do it... because he doesn't believe himself to be God.
Jews said Lord = κύριος = Adonai => when reading יהוה from Scriptures. Disciples called Jesus 'Lord' => יהוה with Jesus confirming Holy Truth:
You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and you speak correctly, for I am. (John 13:13 LEB)
Bible Search for "ἐγώ εἰμί" in SBLGNT includes four "I am" God identifications spoken by Jesus during the last supper discourse written by John:
From now on I am telling you before it happens, in order that when it happens you may believe that I am. (John 13:19 LEB sans "he"* addition)
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6 LEB)
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. (John 15:1 LEB)
“I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in me and I in him—this one bears much fruit, for apart from me you are not able to do anything. (John 15:5 LEB)
Observation is 'BTW' being a bit off-topic for this thread.
Considering literal truth in Luke 16:19-31 parable being reported by two humans, who were recently in Hell for awhile (collaborates parable description with more tormenting details), am trusting the Lake of Fire in Revelation to be awful torment for any creature whose sin actions provide Holy Righteous God reason to blot out their name from the Book of Life OR whose name was never written in the Book of Life.
Chapter 6 of My Journey to Heaven: What I Saw and How It Changed My Life describes the massive Book of Life in Heaven.
Thankful for 23 Minutes in Hell: One Man's Story About What He Saw, Heard, and Felt in That Place of Torment being in my Logos Bible Software library. The rich man and Lazarus parable having no water for those currently in torment matches intense experience by Bill Wiese. Also water is not mentioned in Chapters 14 & 15 of "Climbing Into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven" by Michele Pulford, which includes horrific description of Hell (dead beings & demons being tormented) plus Michele's conversations with God (after her planned suicide).
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Bible Search for "ἐγώ εἰμί" in SBLGNT includes four "I am" God identifications spoken by Jesus during the last supper discourse written by John:
This is blatantly false .... If I or you or anyone else, even Jesus, said "I am the person {such and such} ...", would they be using the 'I am' God identification thereby claiming to be God ?? Of course not, they would simply be using the "I" and the "am" as part of a statement that has NOTHING to do with being or claiming to be God.
It seems from this, that you believe you should not use the words "I am" as part of sentences for fear of declaring yourself to be God, which explains your sometimes odd manner of writing ????
From now on I am telling you before it happens, in order that when it happens you may believe that I am. (John 13:19 LEB sans "he"* addition)
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6 LEB)
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. (John 15:1 LEB)
“I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in me and I in him—this one bears much fruit, for apart from me you are not able to do anything. (John 15:5 LEB)
In NONE of these statements does "I am" have anything to do with a "God identification" .... in ALL these statements Jesus emphatically (by means of employing a figure of speech) points out aspects of his ministry and how it relates to the disciples.
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The Great "I am" scam, TOTALY beyond reason. Ss if Jesus spoke e-bonics.
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 9 Definition theory does not match human implementation (personal faith belief frame of reference is more important to human than definition).
@Bill_Coley June 9 From the responses that you've posted to me over the many months of our Trinity-based conversations, I think it's clear that for you, you're correct. This latest exchange of ours has been abounded with examples of your importing personal faith into texts, thereby producing interpretations that have no textual foundation.
@Bill_Coley June 9 I believe I have a much better track record in this area. If a text doesn't say something, in general, I don't claim that it does. If a text DOES say something, I WILL claim that it does. I may agree or disagree - like or dislike - the "something" that the text says, but if it's in there, I have to acknowledge it; if it's not in there, I have to acknowledge that it's not. And as you have discovered, when you claim a text says something that I don't believe it says - something that happens frequently - I make that clear too.
From my point of view, our track records provide consistent witness about personal faith belief frame of reference importance => the text says.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 9 If believe Jesus is NOT God, then "the text itself" clearly shows God being distinct from Jesus (as expressed recently in a number of CD threads)
@Bill_Coley June 9 We've been down this road SO MANY TIMES, I can't believe I still have to make the following point: If for Bible interpreters, the biblical text comes first - if the text shapes their faith beliefs rather than their faith belief shaping the text - there is NO issue.
Hypothetical "If" has issue of every human already having their own faith belief frame of reference when reading/studying/praying Bible text (so initial & ongoing Bible text knowledge & understanding of Lord God is shaped within existing personal faith belief frame of reference).
@Bill_Coley June 9 EXAMPLE: In order for Jesus to be God, in my view, the biblical text, NOT MY OR YOUR FAITH BELIEF, must say so. In my view, the biblical text does not say Jesus is God, and in fact, says definitively that Jesus is not God. Because the text comes before my faith belief, I decided my faith belief AFTER studying the biblical text.
We agree 'the biblical text does not say Jesus is God (plural)'. Searching Bible for verses having God and Jesus included Jewish High Priest question in Matthew 26:63 that is consistent with the living God (plural) being more than The Word as clearly stated in John 1:1
Koine Greek Biblical text says:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. (John 1:1 SBLGNT)
In beginning was being The Word, and The Word was being with The God, and God was being The Word. (my literal translation) Thankful for "aha" moment when pondering past time Greek verb tenses, John 1:1 ἦν spelling of εἰμί (to be) is imperfect tense => continuous action in past time.
Phrase "God was being The Word" concisely expresses The Word quality was fully being God, but God entity was being more than The Word. Hebrew word e-lo-HEEM אֱלֹהִ֜ים God is plural, which includes The Father, The Word, and Breath The Holy (Hebrew plural is a minimum of three as Hebrew noun spelling also has dual: eyes, ears, ...). Jesus is part of e-lo-HEEM God entity (One spiritual God being), but NOT all of e-lo-HEEM God.
Greek grammar implication is if John 1:1c phrase had been "The God was being The Word", then the text would say complete interchangeability, that is "The God = The Word", as illustrated by @theMadJW in June 9 graphic. To me, that graphic is blasphemy (curses God).
Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας· (John 14:1 SBLGNT)
Also The Word flesh became and lived among us, also we saw the glory of him, glory as only-begotten from the Father, full of grace also of truth: (my literal translation, includes "the" to show the object of a preposition, καὶ could be and/also)
@Bill_Coley June 9 As I have reported on more than one occasion in these threads, for decades I was a passionate advocate of Trinitarian theology. I changed my faith belief only AFTER I spent a decade studying the biblical text on the subject.
Concur lots of human thoughts can be assimulated into faith belief change (reminds me of a Greek sentence that is numbered Romans 12:1-2). Observation is your passionate theology change no longer really understands the concept of One plural unique God (per your CD posts).
While intensely memorizing & studying Scripture text along with Jewish oral law & traditions, what happened to the Pharisees ? => “But woe to you, Pharisees, because you pay a tenth of mint and rue and every garden herb, and neglect justice and love for God! But it was necessary to do these things without neglecting those things also. (Luke 11:42 LEB)
What happened so the Pharisees neglected love for God ? irony is their twice daily repetition of The Shema: Deuteronomy 6:4-9 & Deuteronomy 11:13-21 had become vain. Before putting on the tallit (garment with blue cord tassels) in the morning, Numbers 15:37-41 is recited.
@Bill_Coley June 9 FIRST TEXT, THEN BELIEF.
Theoretical goal, but humanly challenging to achieve. Thankful for learning how to do my own translation of Koine Greek Bible text, which helped me appreciate range of expression in English Bibles. Thankful for learning Hebrew language exegetical insights.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 9 If believe Jesus and The Father are One יהוה God, then "the text itself" shows One plural unique יהוה God.
@Bill_Coley June 9 You are of course welcome to this faith belief, one, in my view, however, that is not supported by the biblical text.
Puzzled by your personal dismissive comment (criticizing me: "You are ..." & idea) while asserting your personal faith belief view. Respectful reply could have been: "we agree" (recognize faith belief frame of reference different than your own while your belief view matches your words).
Hurting people hurt people. Loving people love people. No reply for this public thread (wonder what hurts motivate personal dismissiveness, Thankful for God helping me experience Holy healing from my hurts, habits, & hangups: am learning & growing as a child of God). If we meet in person, I could Smile at you & say: "I see the image of God in You. You're Special. God Loves You. ❤️ Does God like our sin ? No. God Loves Us. ❤️
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 8 ... By this everyone will know that you are my disciples—if you have love for one another.” (John 13:34-35 LEB) that had "my disciples" jump out at me: if Jesus is not God, then "my disciples" (of Jesus) simply conflicts with the greatest command: “Hear, Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is unique. And you shall love Yahweh your God with all of your heart and with all of your soul and with all of your might. (Deuteronomy 6:4-5 LEB)
@Bill_Coley June 9 The Shema does NOT prohibit discipleship among humans; it describes the the fullness of the love humans are to have for God. There is no conflict whatsoever between the disciples' following Jesus while at the same time wholly loving a distinct, separate, unique, non-Jesus God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 9 Human devotion following Jesus necessarily means that human is NOT Loving a distinct, separate, unique, non-Jesus God with ALL the human is. The distinct, separate, unique, non-Jesus God is a Jealous God: “There shall be for you no other gods before me. “ (Exodus 20:3-7 LEB)
@Bill_Coley June 9 Your claim is absurd. OF COURSE one can be humanly devoted to another human and still love God in accordance with the Shema.
Best marriage relationship happens when each spouse chooses to Loves ❤️ God first, which enables God's Love ❤️ to flow through spouse to other spouse, family, neighbors.
* What did Jesus say when asked to identify the greatest commandment? To love God with all heart, mind, soul, and strength.... Except there was more, wasn't there? Jesus said there was a second commandment that was "equally important:" to love our neighbors as we love ourselves (Matthew 22.39).
Freely choosing to truly Loving ❤️ God first connects human into an immensely wonderful Love ❤️ communion (like a leaf vibrantly growing on a vine), which enables God's Love ❤️ to flow through human to love ❤️ themself as God Loves ❤️ and others as God Loves ❤️.
FYI: English spells noun & verb form of Love the same while Greek spelling is different for noun & verb. Matthew 22:34-40 has Love verbs.
* Paul told the Galatians that "the whole law" could be summed up as a command to love neighbor as self (Galatians 5.14). Clearly, Paul believed we could be devoted to each other while we also loved God.
Jewish learning for Paul included twice daily saying of The Shema, which is foundational for loving neighbor as God loves each of us.
* The writer of Ephesians told husbands to "love their wives as they love their own bodies. For a man who loves his wife actually shows love for himself" (Ephesians 5.28). (The writer also told wives to "submit" to their husbands, but I'm not going there!) If that's not "devotion" to another human being, I don't know what is.
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for her; in order that he might sanctify her by cleansing her with the washing of water by the word; in order that he might present to himself the church glorious, not having a spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she may be holy and blameless. Thus also husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies. The one who loves his own wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as also Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” (This mystery is great, but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.) Only you also, each one of you, must thus love his own wife as himself, and the wife must respect her husband. (Ephesians 5:25-33 LEB)
Faith belief frame of reference about Jesus Christ affects goal understanding for husbands loving their wives (and wives respecting husbands).
* Paul directed the church in Rome to be "devoted to one another in brotherly love, esteeming one another more highly in honor" (Romans 12.10, LEB).
Paul believed Jesus is Lord יהוה that is consistent with Jews saying Lord = κύριος = Adonai => when reading יהוה from Scripture.
@Bill_Coley June 9 * Jesus told his disciples that the world would know they were his followers by the way they loved (agape) each other (John 13.35). Agape love isn't a form of devotion to another person?
Agape Love desires The Best for/in someone else, which can include laying life down.
@Bill_Coley June 9 OF COURSE we can be devoted to Jesus and still the love God who sent him. Jesus all but made the connection for us when he asked why someone called him "good" when only God was good. Translation: You can follow my teachings, but only God is God (Luke 18.19).
Luke 18:19 is in Luke 18:18-30 parable about a rich man. My language usage avoids using "good" to describe anything other than God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 9 Choosing to serve Jesus as a disciple while believing Jesus is NOT God => violates both The Shema and Ten Commandments. Not ALL of the human is choosing to Love ❤️ God (by choosing something other than God to serve).
@Bill_Coley June 9 Again, simply not true.
2 Corinthians 10:3-6 is one Greek Sentence in SBLGNT => For although we are living in the flesh, we do not wage war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not merely human, but powerful to God for the tearing down of fortresses, tearing down arguments and all pride that is raised up against the knowledge of God, and taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. And we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is completed. (2 Corinthians 10:3-6 LEB)
If believe Christ is NOT God, then taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ is obeying someone/something other than God.
If believe יהוה Christ is part of One plural unique יהוה God, then taking every thought captive to the obedience of יהוה Christ is obeying יהוה God.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 8 If believe Jesus & The Father = One Yahweh God, then being a disciple of Jesus = being a disciple of Yahweh.
@Bill_Coley June 9 Yes. This is of course true.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 9 We agree.
@Bill_Coley June 9 We agree on your hypothetical, that IF we believe Jesus and the Father are one God, then.... But as you very clearly know, we do NOT agree that Jesus and the Father are one God, a fact that renders your hypothetical moot.
We currently disagree about who Jesus truly is (so we agree about my If statement overall while disagreeing about If condition truthfulness).
Curious how goes your Bible study of: 'Jesus experiencing God's Glory (John 17:5) & God's Love (John 17:24) before God created physical realm out of nothing' ? Jesus knew He had come from heaven above (John 8:23), a man not from this world below (clearly distinct from all other humans).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 9 Jews said Lord = κύριος = Adonai => when reading יהוה from Scriptures. Disciples called Jesus 'Lord' => יהוה with Jesus confirming Holy Truth:
You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and you speak correctly, for I am. (John 13:13 LEB)
@Bill_Coley June 9 Jesus calls himself their Lord or "master." He does NOT call himself their God.
We disagree. Recently learned Jewish scholars a couple centuries before Christ, often translated the phrase "I YHWH" "אֲנִ֥י יְהוָֽה" into the Greek LXX as "I Lord" "ἐγὼ Κύριος" OR "I Am Lord" "ἐγώ εἰμι Κύριος", sometimes as "I The God" "ἐγὼ ὁ θεός". Thankful Logos Bible Search for phrase "<LogosMorphHeb = RP1-S> <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה>" in the Lexham Hebrew Bible can show corresponding results in LXX Swete and English Bible(s) with Reverse Interlinears: e.g. ASV 1901, KJV 1900, LEB, NLT, ... Jewish Rabbi Jesus and Jewish disciples of Jesus had heard Κύριος (Lord) spoken for יהוה thousands of times in Synagogue scripture readings. Bible search for <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> in LHB finds יהוה often translated into Greek LXX as "Κύριος", sometimes as "The God" "ὁ θεός"
@Bill_Coley June 9 At multiple points in the post-Gospel New testament, writers make a clear distinction between God and Jesus as "Lord":
- Philippians 2.10-11 - knees bow and tongues confess that Jesus is "Lord" to the glory of God, the Father
- 1 Thessalonians 3.11 - Paul asks that God their Father and the Lord Jesus direct him to the Thessalonians
- 2 Thessalonians 2.16 - "May the Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father...."
@Bill_Coley June 9 The distinction between the two is both obvious and recurring.
Caution is eisegetical examples expressing personal faith belief frame of reference (distinction), which ignores what "the text says" to the Jewish author: Lord = κύριος = Adonai => יהוה
- Philippians 2.10-11 - knees bow and tongues confess that Jesus is "יהוה Lord" to the glory of יהוה God, the Father
- 1 Thessalonians 3.11 - Paul asks that יהוה God their Father and the יהוה Lord Jesus direct him to the Thessalonians
- 2 Thessalonians 2.16 - "May the יהוה Lord Jesus Christ himself and יהוה God our Father...."
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 9 Bible Search for "ἐγώ εἰμί" in SBLGNT includes four "I am"
@Bill_Coley June 9 Jesus' use of the words "I am" DO NOT report a belief that he is God. In most of the examples you cite, when Jesus says "I am," he's simply confirming some piece of his identity. e.g. He IS their teacher and Lord. He IS the way, the truth, and the life. He IS the true vine.
Bible Search for "ἐγώ εἰμί" in SBLGNT finds three sentences that end with "ἐγώ εἰμί" in the Gospel of John:
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am!” (John 8:58 LEB)
Others were saying, “It is this man”; others were saying, “No, but he is like him.” That one was saying, “I am he!” (John 9:9 LEB, man born blind)
From now on I am telling you before it happens, in order that when it happens you may believe that I am. (John 13:19 LEB sans "he"* addition)
To me, John 8:58 and John 13:19 identify Jesus as יהוה (as well as other passages). Hence twice before Jesus spoke John 14:1 "be ye believing into The God, also into Me be ye believing" has Jesus confirming/expressing יהוה Lord identity in John 13:13 and John 13:19. No human on this world below can truthfully be what Jesus identified in John 14:6, John 15:1, and John 15:5
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 9 Bible Search for "ἐγώ εἰμί" in SBLGNT includes four "I am" God identifications spoken by Jesus during the last supper discourse written by John:
@Wolfgang June 10 If I or you or anyone else, even Jesus, said "I am the person {such and such} ...", would they be using the 'I am' God identification thereby claiming to be God ??
John 9:9 is an "ἐγώ εἰμί" example identification that is not God (identified the man born blind, who could now see). To me, John 8:58 and John 13:19 context identify Jesus as יהוה (both Greek sentences end with "ἐγώ εἰμί"). No human on this world below can truthfully be what Jesus identified in John 14:6, John 15:1, and John 15:5.
Concur with @Wolfgang that "ἐγώ εἰμί" is simple identification, which was spoken by many people. The words "ἐγώ εἰμί" "I am" by themself do not identify God. Caveat is Bible context shows "ἐγώ εἰμί" identifies God more than any other person, especially when spoken by God.
Exodus 3:14 has Hebrew word אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה three times. Only the first occurrence of אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה in Exodus 3:14 was translated by Jewish scholars into Greek as "ἐγώ εἰμί" "I am" (all other uses of אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה had different Greek translation in LXX)
Bible Search for "ἐγώ εἰμί" in SBLGNT finds 47 verses while Bible search for "ἐγώ εἰμί" in LXX Swete finds 172 verses. Thus, posted graphic "used about 100 times" is verifiably faulty. Greek verb εἰμί is present tense (not one of the Greek tenses about action happening in past time) => NWT translation of "ἐγώ εἰμί" as "I have been" (English perfect tense) is an eisegetical example (translator's faith belief frame of reference affected word choice). Notably missing from graphic is many translations of "I Jehovah" as "ἐγώ εἰμί" OR "ἐγώ εἰμί Κύριος" in the Greek Septuagint (LXX). Page 15 of thread Jesus ? "Not God" ? Savior ? includes June 3 post showing many "I Jehovah" => "ἐγώ εἰμί" & "ἐγώ εἰμί Κύριος" verses, which was followed by your post:
Puzzled by your lack of courage to check out your June 10 graphic assertions.
Keep Smiling 😊
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I guess he needs to overwhelm us wit his 'knowledge'...
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Exodus 3:14 has Hebrew word אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה three times. Only the first occurrence of אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה in Exodus 3:14 was translated by Jewish scholars into Greek as "ἐγώ εἰμί" "I am" (all other uses of אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה had different Greek translation in LXX)
I suggest you finally take a more careful look at Exo 3:14 (cp. 3 simple to read and understand versions for starters) from LXX and understand why the 3 uses of the Hebrew word were translated differently:
Exo 3:14 (LXX English translation, Brenton) 14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.
Exo 3:14 (LXX) 14 καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεὸς πρὸς Μωυσῆν Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν, καὶ εἶπεν Οὕτως ἐρεῖς τοῖς υἱοῖς Ισραηλ Ὁ ὢν ἀπέσταλκέν με πρὸς ὑμᾶς.
Contrary to your faith belief, the "God identifying" expression is NOT the Ἐγώ εἰμι but the ὁ ὤν. It was NOT Ἐγώ εἰμι Who sent Moses to Pharaoh !! It was ὁ ὤν. The words Ἐγώ εἰμι spoken by God Himself were simply the personal pronoun "I" and the verb "am", no different from when I or anyone else uses them, like in "I am {whatever I continue in the sentence."
Simple and plain truth ... unless misinterpreted on the basis of false faith belief 😉
Post edited by [Deleted User] on -
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Concur with @Wolfgang that "ἐγώ εἰμί" is simple identification, which was spoken by many people. The words "ἐγώ εἰμί" "I am" by themself do not identify God.
It is most often NOT an identification, but the beginning of a statement in which someone mentions what or who he is (cp. "I am German" or "I am a senior citizen" or "I am thankful for many things" or "I am angry seeing how people sometimes treat Biblical texts", etc. ) If in answer to a question in which identifying oneself is the point of the question, it is more the question which determines identity (cp. "Are you Wolfgang? Yes, I am." or "Are you Jimmy DoLittle? No, I am not") The "I am ..." is simply part of a statement.
Caveat is Bible context shows "ἐγώ εἰμί" identifies God more than any other person, especially when spoken by God.
This is false as well ... when God uses the words "I" and "am" in a statement, it does not make these words take on the meaning of "God"! Rather it has the simple meaning of "I" with the verb "to be" in present tense as "I" and "will be ..." have in future tense or "I was ..." in past tense. Would you claim that "I was" or "I will be" are the name or identifier of God?
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 Exodus 3:14 has Hebrew word אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה three times. Only the first occurrence of אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה in Exodus 3:14 was translated by Jewish scholars into Greek as "ἐγώ εἰμί" "I am" (all other uses of אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה had different Greek translation in LXX)
@Wolfgang June 11 I suggest you finally take a more careful look at Exo 3:14 (cp. 3 simple to read and understand versions for starters) from LXX and understand why the 3 uses of the Hebrew word were translated differently:
Exodus 3:14 is a perplexing translation. Bible Search for "ὁ ὤν" in LXX shows second & third אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה translation while אֲשֶׁ֣ר (that) appears not to be translated in Exodus 3:14 while 3 Kingdoms 16:22 has אֲשֶׁ֣ר (who) translated as ὁ ὤν. In Jeremiah, אֲהָהּ֙ (ah) was translated as ὁ ὤν three times (spoken by Jeremiah). Only Exodus 3:14 in LXX has ὁ ὤν translation for words spoken by God.
Bible Search for אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה in LHB shows Exodus 3:14 has unique ὁ ὤν translation. Screen shot shows LXX translation of Exodus 3:14 being different than English translation from Hebrew, which shows אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה (I AM) three times in ASV (American Standard Version). The Mishnah (Jewish Oral Law that was written down ~200 CE) documents God's Holy Name was correctly pronounced by Jewish Priests in The Temple in Jerusalem while a substitute was spoken in the provinces to "hide" God's Holy Name. LXX translation was done in the provinces (Egypt) so am wondering if unique ὁ ὤν translation complies with Mishnah to "hide" God's Holy Name.
United Bible Societies (UBS) Handbook Series is a commentary set (focused on translation issues), which includes insights about Exodus 3:14
God said shows the narrator’s insistence that it is God who is about to reveal his name. But I am who I am is not the name; it is an intentional play on the word I am, the word on which the name yhwh in verse 15 is based. This roundabout reply is not as difficult to translate as it is to understand. Various attempts have been made to translate the meaning: “I am; that is who I am” (NEB); “I am who am” (NAB); “I am he who is” (NJB). One translation (TAN) even transliterates from the Hebrew: “Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh.” Another way to express this is “ ‘I Am’ is who I am.” In languages that have different verbs for permanent and temporary being, the permanent one should be used.
The word for I am (’ehyeh) is the verb “to be” in the first person singular; the name yhwh (probably pronounced “Yahweh”) is an early form of this same verb in the third person singular. The significance of the name is thus established, but its precise meaning is not clear; it may be expressed in a variety of ways. (See the footnotes in 3:14 RSV and 3:14 TEV and the comment at verse 2a.)
And he said may be omitted, as in 3:14 TEV and others, for it is still God who continues to speak without interruption. Say this to the people of Israel is in answer to Moses’ question, “What shall I say to them?” It is not the answer to the question “What is his name?” What Moses is to say to the Israelites, first of all, is “I am has sent me to you.” Such a reply was to establish Moses’ authority to speak in the name of a God who is far greater than his name.
TEV attempts to make better sense of this reply with “The one who is called I AM has sent me to you.” But this seems to contradict what is said in verse 15. It would be better to say “The one who calls himself I am has sent me to you,” in order to avoid confusion with what the Israelites are to call him. In answer to the question “What is his name?” therefore, it is better to consider verse 14 as an indirect or vague reply and verse 15 as the direct reply.
Noel D. Osborn and Howard A. Hatton, A Handbook on Exodus, UBS Handbook Series (New York: United Bible Societies, 1999), 68.
@Wolfgang June 11 Contrary to your faith belief, the "God identifying" expression is NOT the Ἐγώ εἰμι but the ὁ ὤν. It was NOT Ἐγώ εἰμι Who sent Moses to Pharaoh !! It was ὁ ὤν. The words Ἐγώ εἰμι spoken by God Himself were simply the personal pronoun "I" and the verb "am", no different from when I or anyone else uses them, like in "I am {whatever I continue in the sentence."
@Wolfgang June 11 Simple and plain truth ... unless misinterpreted on the basis of false faith belief 😉
Observed your faith belief frame of reference embedded in your "I am" explanation. Yet concur that "I am" God needs God contextual words.
Keep Smiling 😊
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And Ex 3 has NOTHING to do with John 8!
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus Observed your faith belief frame of reference embedded in your "I am" explanation.
No faith belief on my side .... Just simple plain language and plain grammar ... which I did not invent or re-interpret.
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Confusing idea assertion since the graphic you posted on June 10 included: Ex 3 & John 8:58
Jewish Publication Society Commentary about Torah includes insight about the name of God:
13. Moses’ second objection is related to the inability to represent Israel without a mandate from the people and without even knowing the name of the God for whom he is now asked to speak. The title “God of your father” was a widely used Near Eastern epithet, also applicable to any of the pagan gods, as noted in Excursus 3. By asking for God’s name, Moses implicitly denies knowledge of it, as Rashbam notes.
Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh This phrase has variously been translated, “I Am That I Am,” “I Am Who I Am,” and “I Will Be What I Will Be.” It clearly evokes YHVH, the specific proper name of Israel’s God, known in English as the Tetragrammaton, that is, “the four consonants.” The phrase also indicates that the earliest recorded understanding of the divine name was as a verb derived from the stem h-v-h, taken as an earlier form of h-y-h, “to be.” Either it expresses the quality of absolute Being, the eternal, unchanging, dynamic presence, or it means, “He causes to be.” YHVH is the third person masculine singular; ehyeh is the corresponding first person singular. This latter is used here because name-giving in the ancient world implied the wielding of power over the one named; hence, the divine name can only proceed from God Himself.
In the course of the Second Temple period the Tetragrammaton came to be regarded as charged with metaphysical potency and therefore ceased to be pronounced. It was replaced in speech by ʾadonai, “Lord,” rendered into Greek Kyrios. Often the vowels of ʾadonai would later accompany YHVH in written texts. This gave rise to the mistaken form Jehovah. The original pronunciation was eventually lost; modern attempts at recovery are conjectural.
God’s response to Moses’ query cannot be the disclosure of a hitherto unknown name, for that would be unintelligible to the people and would not resolve Moses’ dilemma. However, taken together with the statement in 6:3, the implication is that the name YHVH only came into prominence as the characteristic personal name of the God of Israel in the time of Moses. This tradition accords with the facts that the various divine names found in Genesis are no longer used, except occasionally in poetic texts; that of all the personal names listed hitherto, none is constructed of the prefixed yeho-/yo- or the suffixed -yahu/-yah contractions of YHVH; that the first name of this type is yokheved (Jochebed), that of Moses’ mother. Ibn Ezra points out that Moses, in his direct speech. invariably uses the name YHVH, not ʾelohim, “God.” Without doubt, the revelation of the divine name YHVH to Moses registers a new stage in the history of Israelite monotheism.
Nahum M. Sarna, Exodus, The JPS Torah Commentary (Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society, 1991), 17–18.
Noted Jehovah is a mistaken combination of adonai vowels with YHVH. The Second Temple is the temple mentioned in Gospel accounts.
Keep Smiling 😊
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I was relating to the church dogma.
Do you assume EVEYBODY speaks Hebrew?
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Ideas of @theMadJW about Exodus 3 & John 8:58 in words & graphics is puzzling & confusing. No idea what idea(s) is intended.
No. Thankful for learning Hebrew alphabet & vowels so can see & sound out Hebrew words. Thankful for Israel 365 Daily Devotion, whose Hebrew transliteration shows acCENted syllaBLE.
Looking at thread history shows Hebrew mentioned earlier:
@theMadJW May 29 included URL to Hebrew name of God (article did not mention Jewish Mishnah about "hiding" name of God in the provinces)
@theMadJW May 29 and June 3 referred to Biblical languages (noticeably missing were Biblical language words)
@theMadJW June 5 graphic included e-lo-HEEM אֱלֹהִ֖ים highlighted in Exodus 7:1 (interlinear display has reversed the order of Hebrew words to match English word order for transliteration & translation).
@theMadJW June 9 graphic has had two replies:
@Wolfgang June 9 Seems to me that the translation and rendering of the Hebrew יהוה as "Jehovah" has been replaced by a linguistically more accurate rendering by transliterating it as "Yahweh"
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 quotation of a verifiable factual witness => Jehovah is a mistaken combination of adonai vowels with YHVH.
Keep Smiling 😊
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Will you EVER make a reply that coherent?
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
From my point of view, our track records provide consistent witness about personal faith belief frame of reference importance => the text says.
I have no doubt that your track record witnesses to the value you place on "personal faith belief frames of reference."
Hypothetical "If" has issue of every human already having their own faith belief frame of reference when reading/studying/praying Bible text (so initial & ongoing Bible text knowledge & understanding of Lord God is shaped within existing personal faith belief frame of reference).
The issue I've raised repeatedly in our exchanges, never to any apparent success, is that what matters is WHICH COMES FIRST, the text or our "own faith belief frame of reference." If the text shapes our faith, there is no issue. What you call our "initial and ongoing Bible text knowledge & understanding" must come from somewhere. In my view, if it comes from the text, there is no issue. I can't explain why I've not had more success in our exchanges communicating that uncomplicated idea.
We agree 'the biblical text does not say Jesus is God (plural)'. Searching Bible for verses having God and Jesus included Jewish High Priest question in Matthew 26:63 that is consistent with the living God (plural) being more than The Word as clearly stated in John 1:1
The biblical text does not say Jesus is God, either (plural) or (singular).
Koine Greek Biblical text says:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. (John 1:1 SBLGNT)
In beginning was being The Word, and The Word was being with The God, and God was being The Word. (my literal translation) Thankful for "aha" moment when pondering past time Greek verb tenses, John 1:1 ἦν spelling of εἰμί (to be) is imperfect tense => continuous action in past time.
Phrase "God was being The Word" concisely expresses The Word quality was fully being God, but God entity was being more than The Word. Hebrew word e-lo-HEEM אֱלֹהִ֜ים God is plural, which includes The Father, The Word, and Breath The Holy (Hebrew plural is a minimum of three as Hebrew noun spelling also has dual: eyes, ears, ...). Jesus is part of e-lo-HEEM God entity (One spiritual God being), but NOT all of e-lo-HEEM God.
Greek grammar implication is if John 1:1c phrase had been "The God was being The Word", then the text would say complete interchangeability, that is "The God = The Word", as illustrated by @theMadJW in June 9 graphic. To me, that graphic is blasphemy (curses God).
Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας· (John 14:1 SBLGNT)
Also The Word flesh became and lived among us, also we saw the glory of him, glory as only-begotten from the Father, full of grace also of truth: (my literal translation, includes "the" to show the object of a preposition, καὶ could be and/also)
In the course of our exchanges, I've exhausted myself on the subject of John's prologue. I have nothing further to say.
Concur lots of human thoughts can be assimulated into faith belief change (reminds me of a Greek sentence that is numbered Romans 12:1-2). Observation is your passionate theology change no longer really understands the concept of One plural unique God (per your CD posts).
I certainly welcome you to the observations and judgments of your choice as to what my theology "no longer really understands."
While intensely memorizing & studying Scripture text along with Jewish oral law & traditions, what happened to the Pharisees ? => “But woe to you, Pharisees, because you pay a tenth of mint and rue and every garden herb, and neglect justice and love for God! But it was necessary to do these things without neglecting those things also. (Luke 11:42 LEB)
What happened so the Pharisees neglected love for God ? irony is their twice daily repetition of The Shema: Deuteronomy 6:4-9 & Deuteronomy 11:13-21 had become vain. Before putting on the tallit (garment with blue cord tassels) in the morning, Numbers 15:37-41 is recited.
The role you intend for this excursus about the Pharisees is not obvious to me. You might intend it to draw a comparison between them and me, or you might intend it for different purpose. I don't know. I don't believe I raised the Pharisees in my posts, so the subject belongs to you.
Theoretical goal, but humanly challenging to achieve. Thankful for learning how to do my own translation of Koine Greek Bible text, which helped me appreciate range of expression in English Bibles. Thankful for learning Hebrew language exegetical insights.
I wish you well in achieving a "text first, then faith" approach to Scripture.
Puzzled by your personal dismissive comment (criticizing me: "You are ..." & idea) while asserting your personal faith belief view. Respectful reply could have been: "we agree" (recognize faith belief frame of reference different than your own while your belief view matches your words).
Please review the post in which I offered the "You are..." comment. When you do, you'll notice that in your reply you didn't quote the full substance of the clause. I didn't just write, "You are...." I wrote, "You are A...." That is, my affirmation to you that "you are welcome" to the faith beliefs of your choosing IS OF A TOTALLY DIFFERENT STRUCTURE AND MEANING than my "you are A" clause of another thread.
- "You are A..." is an introduction to an adjective+name-calling incident - possibly an affirming name; possibly a derogatory name. e.g. "You are a good student," or "You are an idiot."
- "You are welcome" shares the words "you are," but has NOTHING ELSE in common with the other phrase. It simply provides a status report, just as the statement, "you are in the lead" provides a status report (which is not surprising, given that "are" is a form of the linking verb "to be").
That is, there was absolutely nothing dismissive in my "you are welcome" comment. Nothing.
The other part of that sentence was that I don't believe your faith belief is supported by the biblical text. That, too, was not in any way dismissive. It simply expressed my disagreement.
Hurting people hurt people. Loving people love people. No reply for this public thread (wonder what hurts motivate personal dismissiveness, Thankful for God helping me experience Holy healing from my hurts, habits, & hangups: am learning & growing as a child of God). If we meet in person, I could Smile at you & say: "I see the image of God in You. You're Special. God Loves You. ❤️ Does God like our sin ? No. God Loves Us. ❤️
The role you intend for this excursus about "hurting" and "loving" people is not obvious to me. You might intend it to suggest that I am a "hurting" person, or you might intend it for a different purpose. I don't know. I don't believe I raised "hurting" or "loving" people in my posts, so the subjects belong to you.
Best marriage relationship happens when each spouse chooses to Loves ❤️ God first, which enables God's Love ❤️ to flow through spouse to other spouse, family, neighbors.
My point was that we can be devoted to another human being and still love God first. Your marriage example here kind of makes that point.
Freely choosing to truly Loving ❤️ God first connects human into an immensely wonderful Love ❤️ communion (like a leaf vibrantly growing on a vine), which enables God's Love ❤️ to flow through human to love ❤️ themself as God Loves ❤️ and others as God Loves ❤️....
Jewish learning for Paul included twice daily saying of The Shema, which is foundational for loving neighbor as God loves each of us....
Faith belief frame of reference about Jesus Christ affects goal understanding for husbands loving their wives (and wives respecting husbands).
I contend that we CAN love God first, while following Jesus. In fact, as I have shown in countless posts during our exchanges, that's exactly what Jesus told us to do.
Paul believed Jesus is Lord יהוה that is consistent with Jews saying Lord = κύριος = Adonai => when reading יהוה from Scripture.
Over the months of our exchanges, I've cited many texts that show Paul didn't mean Jesus was God when he called him "Lord," just as neither did the disciples. I have neither the energy nor the desire to revisit those texts.
Agape Love desires The Best for/in someone else, which can include laying life down.
Which sounds like devotion to me! And THAT'S the kind of love Jesus commanded us to have for each other, NOT just for God. Translation: We can be devoted to others AND love God with all our hearts, minds, souls, and strengths.
Luke 18:19 is in Luke 18:18-30 parable about a rich man. My language usage avoids using "good" to describe anything other than God.
Okay.
If believe Christ is NOT God, then taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ is obeying someone/something other than God.
I agree. It's obeying the one God sent.
If believe יהוה Christ is part of One plural unique יהוה God, then taking every thought captive to the obedience of יהוה Christ is obeying יהוה God.
You are welcome [NOT "You are A..."] to this point of view, but as I have stated and, I believe, demonstrated, many times in the course of our exchanges, I believe your point of view is not supported by the biblical text.
Curious how goes your Bible study of: 'Jesus experiencing God's Glory (John 17:5) & God's Love (John 17:24) before God created physical realm out of nothing' ? Jesus knew He had come from heaven above (John 8:23), a man not from this world below (clearly distinct from all other humans).
This is the pre-existence material, of whose challenges to me I have made no secret in our exchanges. Nothing has changed.
We disagree. Recently learned Jewish scholars a couple centuries before Christ, often translated the phrase "I YHWH" "אֲנִ֥י יְהוָֽה" into the Greek LXX as "I Lord" "ἐγὼ Κύριος" OR "I Am Lord" "ἐγώ εἰμι Κύριος", sometimes as "I The God" "ἐγὼ ὁ θεός". Thankful Logos Bible Search for phrase "<LogosMorphHeb = RP1-S> <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה>" in the Lexham Hebrew Bible can show corresponding results in LXX Swete and English Bible(s) with Reverse Interlinears: e.g. ASV 1901, KJV 1900, LEB, NLT, ... Jewish Rabbi Jesus and Jewish disciples of Jesus had heard Κύριος (Lord) spoken for יהוה thousands of times in Synagogue scripture readings. Bible search for <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> in LHB finds יהוה often translated into Greek LXX as "Κύριος", sometimes as "The God" "ὁ θεός"
If Jesus believed himself to be God - if THAT'S what he meant when he employed the word "Lord" to describe himself to his followers - it makes no sense to me whatsoever that he NEVER made that connection explicit for them or anyone else. It's one of the most momentous claims of personal identity possible, but Jesus NEVER made it public? He was willing to claim that God had sent him, that he knew God like no one else knew God, but he wasn't willing to say he WAS God?
Caution is eisegetical examples expressing personal faith belief frame of reference (distinction), which ignores what "the text says" to the Jewish author: Lord = κύριος = Adonai => יהוה
So Paul means to say to the Thessalonians, "May the God Jesus Christ and God our Father..."? I don't have to know what the original words meant to the Jewish author to know what they mean as written, AND the fact that basically NO ONE - including Jesus himself - EVER says the simple words, "Jesus is God." The most momentous declaration in human history and basically NO ONE EVER SAYS, "Jesus is God." They have to rely rhetorical creations that they hope their readers will translate correctly. I see no textual basis for such a view. In fact, as I have made clear throughout our exchanges, the overwhelming witness of the biblical text - especially Jesus' own words - is that Jesus was not God.
Bible Search for "ἐγώ εἰμί" in SBLGNT finds three sentences that end with "ἐγώ εἰμί" in the Gospel of John:
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am!” (John 8:58 LEB)
Others were saying, “It is this man”; others were saying, “No, but he is like him.” That one was saying, “I am he!” (John 9:9 LEB, man born blind)
From now on I am telling you before it happens, in order that when it happens you may believe that I am. (John 13:19 LEB sans "he"* addition)
To me, John 8:58 and John 13:19 identify Jesus as יהוה (as well as other passages). Hence twice before Jesus spoke John 14:1 "be ye believing into The God, also into Me be ye believing" has Jesus confirming/expressing יהוה Lord identity in John 13:13 and John 13:19. No human on this world below can truthfully be what Jesus identified in John 14:6, John 15:1, and John 15:5
In its translator note for John 13.19, the LEB says "the predicate nominative (“he”) is understood, but must be supplied in the translation," so clearly the words "I am" launch an introduction of some sort. I agree that in his ministry, Jesus identified himself in many ways, but he NEVER identified himself as God, which means the introduction launched in John 13.19 cannot be as God.
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Agreed
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 Hypothetical "If" has issue of every human already having their own faith belief frame of reference when reading/studying/praying Bible text (so initial & ongoing Bible text knowledge & understanding of Lord God is shaped within existing personal faith belief frame of reference).
@Bill_Coley June 12 The issue I've raised repeatedly in our exchanges, never to any apparent success, is that what matters is WHICH COMES FIRST, the text or our "own faith belief frame of reference." If the text shapes our faith, there is no issue. What you call our "initial and ongoing Bible text knowledge & understanding" must come from somewhere. In my view, if it comes from the text, there is no issue. I can't explain why I've not had more success in our exchanges communicating that uncomplicated idea.
Caution is circular reasoning issue: personal faith belief sees the text saying so repeating "the text says" reinforces personal faith belief ideas. Humans can use phrase "the text says" to deceive themselves about what "the text says" (so phrase sounds authoritative while actually declaring personal faith belief ideas, which could be mishandling the Word of God).
What happens when personal faith belief ideas about what "the text says" does not match what Holy God inspired/intended "the text to say" ?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 We agree 'the biblical text does not say Jesus is God (plural)'. Searching Bible for verses having God and Jesus included Jewish High Priest question in Matthew 26:63 that is consistent with the living God (plural) being more than The Word as clearly stated in John 1:1
@Bill_Coley June 12 The biblical text does not say Jesus is God, either (plural) or (singular).
We disagree about what the Biblical text says (our words reflect our personal faith belief frame of reference ideas about what "the text says").
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 Koine Greek Biblical text says:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος. (John 1:1 SBLGNT)
In beginning was being The Word, and The Word was being with The God, and God was being The Word. (my literal translation) Thankful for "aha" moment when pondering past time Greek verb tenses, John 1:1 ἦν spelling of εἰμί (to be) is imperfect tense => continuous action in past time.
Phrase "God was being The Word" concisely expresses The Word quality was fully being God, but God entity was being more than The Word. Hebrew word e-lo-HEEM אֱלֹהִ֜ים God is plural, which includes The Father, The Word, and Breath The Holy (Hebrew plural is a minimum of three as Hebrew noun spelling also has dual: eyes, ears, ...). Jesus is part of e-lo-HEEM God entity (One spiritual God being), but NOT all of e-lo-HEEM God.
Greek grammar implication is if John 1:1c phrase had been "The God was being The Word", then the text would say complete interchangeability, that is "The God = The Word", as illustrated by @theMadJW in June 9 graphic. To me, that graphic is blasphemy (curses God).
Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας· (John 14:1 SBLGNT)
Also The Word flesh became and lived among us, also we saw the glory of him, glory as only-begotten from the Father, full of grace also of truth: (my literal translation, includes "the" to show the object of a preposition, καὶ could be and/also)
@Bill_Coley June 12 In the course of our exchanges, I've exhausted myself on the subject of John's prologue. I have nothing further to say.
If The Word is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, would The Word יהוה Jesus be righteously angry & disappointed with text study exhaustion ?
@Bill_Coley June 9 As I have reported on more than one occasion in these threads, for decades I was a passionate advocate of Trinitarian theology. I changed my faith belief only AFTER I spent a decade studying the biblical text on the subject.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 Concur lots of human thoughts can be assimulated into faith belief change (reminds me of a Greek sentence that is numbered Romans 12:1-2). Observation is your passionate theology change no longer really understands the concept of One plural unique God (per your CD posts).
@Bill_Coley June 12 I certainly welcome you to the observations and judgments of your choice as to what my theology "no longer really understands."
AFTER a decade of Bible study, what really changed ? the Bible text itself OR personal faith belief ideas about what "the Bible text itself says" ?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 While intensely memorizing & studying Scripture text along with Jewish oral law & traditions, what happened to the Pharisees ? => “But woe to you, Pharisees, because you pay a tenth of mint and rue and every garden herb, and neglect justice and love for God! But it was necessary to do these things without neglecting those things also. (Luke 11:42 LEB)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 What happened so the Pharisees neglected love for God ? irony is their twice daily repetition of The Shema: Deuteronomy 6:4-9 & Deuteronomy 11:13-21 had become vain. Before putting on the tallit (garment with blue cord tassels) in the morning, Numbers 15:37-41 is recited.
@Bill_Coley June 12 The role you intend for this excursus about the Pharisees is not obvious to me. You might intend it to draw a comparison between them and me, or you might intend it for different purpose. I don't know. I don't believe I raised the Pharisees in my posts, so the subject belongs to you.
Thankful for Jewish Pharisees being an intense personal warning about guarding my heart to Love God ❤️ first (with desire to Be Holy as God is Holy, includes Righteous Love ❤️) while intentionally & intently studying God's Word with 🙏 Prayer for God to open my eyes to behold amazing wonders of Holy God Truth 😍 Whether what happened as the Pharisees studied for years has applicability to you is for you to decide.
FWIW: every human has a spiritual adversary (enemy), who calls attention to human sin action choices before Holy God (especially evil thoughts placed by spiritual enemy into human brains, which human sinfully choose to obey). "Climbing Into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven" by Michele Pulford includes description of Hi Pitch & Lo Pitch voices (and what those tormenting demons looked like in Hell).
@Bill_Coley June 9 FIRST TEXT, THEN BELIEF.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 Theoretical goal, but humanly challenging to achieve. Thankful for learning how to do my own translation of Koine Greek Bible text, which helped me appreciate range of expression in English Bibles. Thankful for learning Hebrew language exegetical insights.
@Bill_Coley June 12 I wish you well in achieving a "text first, then faith" approach to Scripture.
For me, am Thankful for Holy God's words always being truthfully consistent (still have much to learn: increasing knowledge helps me appreciate more that do not know). Thankful for God's Word being a treasure hunt 😍 that has included correcting/enhancing/growing my appreciation of God ❤️ Thankful for my heart singing lots of Praise to God daily ❤️ (little child in me enjoys joining all nature in declaring God's Glory & Holiness)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 9 If believe Jesus and The Father are One יהוה God, then "the text itself" shows One plural unique יהוה God.
@Bill_Coley June 9 You are of course welcome to this faith belief, one, in my view, however, that is not supported by the biblical text.
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 Puzzled by your personal dismissive comment (criticizing me: "You are ..." & idea) while asserting your personal faith belief view. Respectful reply could have been: "we agree" (recognize faith belief frame of reference different than your own while your belief view matches your words).
@Bill_Coley June 12 Please review the post in which I offered the "You are..." comment. When you do, you'll notice that in your reply you didn't quote the full substance of the clause. I didn't just write, "You are...." I wrote, "You are A...." That is, my affirmation to you that "you are welcome" to the faith beliefs of your choosing IS OF A TOTALLY DIFFERENT STRUCTURE AND MEANING than my "you are A" clause of another thread.
Puzzled by your linking of the post in which I offered the "You are..." comment. to a post by @theMadJW on June 11 in thread What does it mean to be in "the image of God?" that quoted a reply followed by:
My June 11 post included your complete "welcome" quote from June 9 (as does this reply including @ poster name with date linked to that post).
Respectful reply could have been: "we agree about if statement while we disagree that the text says 'Jesus and The Father are One יהוה God'".
@Bill_Coley June 12 That is, there was absolutely nothing dismissive in my "you are welcome" comment. Nothing.
Appears a decade of Bible study does not want to respectfully acknowledge a previous faith belief frame of reference, but always wants to deny it.
@Bill_Coley June 12 The other part of that sentence was that I don't believe your faith belief is supported by the biblical text. That, too, was not in any way dismissive. It simply expressed my disagreement.
We simply disagree about purpose of "one, in my view, however, that is not supported by the biblical text." (especially about an if statement)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 Best marriage relationship happens when each spouse chooses to Loves ❤️ God first, which enables God's Love ❤️ to flow through spouse to other spouse, family, neighbors.
@Bill_Coley June 12 My point was that we can be devoted to another human being and still love God first. Your marriage example here kind of makes that point.
Flip side rhetorical question: How many families have hurts from selfish sin choices, not Love God first ? (Thankful for Holy God truly knowing & understanding human hurts, which are way too many for me to count: have cried many, many times, includes reading Michele Pulford's book)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 Paul believed Jesus is Lord יהוה that is consistent with Jews saying Lord = κύριος = Adonai => when reading יהוה from Scripture.
@Bill_Coley June 12 Over the months of our exchanges, I've cited many texts that show Paul didn't mean Jesus was God when he called him "Lord," just as neither did the disciples. I have neither the energy nor the desire to revisit those texts.
Seem to remember expressions of "the text says" assertions, which really expressed personal faith belief frame of reference while neglecting Jewish context (e.g. effectively redefined "Lord" after a decade of study doubts resulted in personal theology change of what "the text says"). Also seem to remember a question lacking your insight: What changed in the Jewish Pharisee Paul (Saul) so Jewish leaders wanted to kill Paul ?
My June 11 post in this thread included a quote from Jewish Publication Society with insight about the name of God, dating Lord = κύριος = Adonai => יהוה in the Second Temple period (prior to Jesus teaching in the Second Temple).
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 2 Corinthians 10:3-6 is one Greek Sentence in SBLGNT => For although we are living in the flesh, we do not wage war according to the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not merely human, but powerful to God for the tearing down of fortresses, tearing down arguments and all pride that is raised up against the knowledge of God, and taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ. And we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is completed. (2 Corinthians 10:3-6 LEB)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 If believe Christ is NOT God, then taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ is obeying someone/something other than God.
@Bill_Coley June 12 I agree. It's obeying the one God sent.
If believe God The Father and Lord Jesus Christ are clearly distinct, then how does human obeying Lord Jesus Christ (one sent) really show Agape Love to the clearly distinct God The Father (sender) ?
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 If believe יהוה Christ is part of One plural unique יהוה God, then taking every thought captive to the obedience of יהוה Christ is obeying יהוה God.
@Bill_Coley June 12 You are welcome [NOT "You are A..."] to this point of view, but as I have stated and, I believe, demonstrated, many times in the course of our exchanges, I believe your point of view is not supported by the biblical text.
Biblical text itself simply does not say what your CD posts say the text says (really expresses personal faith belief frame of reference as an appeal to an unnamed authority). Intriguing repetition "you are welcome ..., BUT" that reminds me of a person asking for forgiveness in a disrespectful manner: "Please forgive me for ... , BUT here's my view why for ...." (behavior rationalization effectively reduces/eliminates forgiveness sincerity)
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 We disagree. Recently learned Jewish scholars a couple centuries before Christ, often translated the phrase "I YHWH" "אֲנִ֥י יְהוָֽה" into the Greek LXX as "I Lord" "ἐγὼ Κύριος" OR "I Am Lord" "ἐγώ εἰμι Κύριος", sometimes as "I The God" "ἐγὼ ὁ θεός". Thankful Logos Bible Search for phrase "<LogosMorphHeb = RP1-S> <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה>" in the Lexham Hebrew Bible can show corresponding results in LXX Swete and English Bible(s) with Reverse Interlinears: e.g. ASV 1901, KJV 1900, LEB, NLT, ... Jewish Rabbi Jesus and Jewish disciples of Jesus had heard Κύριος (Lord) spoken for יהוה thousands of times in Synagogue scripture readings. Bible search for <Lemma = lbs/he/יהוה> in LHB finds יהוה often translated into Greek LXX as "Κύριος", sometimes as "The God" "ὁ θεός"
@Bill_Coley June 12 If Jesus believed himself to be God - if THAT'S what he meant when he employed the word "Lord" to describe himself to his followers - it makes no sense to me whatsoever that he NEVER made that connection explicit for them or anyone else. It's one of the most momentous claims of personal identity possible, but Jesus NEVER made it public? He was willing to claim that God had sent him, that he knew God like no one else knew God, but he wasn't willing to say he WAS God?
To really Love God first requires human choice (reason for parables in Mark 4:10-12). Searching Gospels for believe finds many verses. Have 🙏prayed like father's request to Jesus in Mark 9:14-29 a number of times. What did Jesus teach about authority and believing in Matthew 21:23-46 ? What did demons say about Jesus in Mark 1:22-28 ? What did Jesus say in the Luke 4:16-30 synagogue teaching ? Why did hometown people not believe Jesus ? What message was given to the man in Luke 8:26-39 ? What does John 14:1 command about believing in God & in Jesus (me) ?
Deuteronomy 6:4 has a mixture of singular and plural words: e.g. e-lo-HEEM אֱלֹהִ֜ים God is plural (minimum of three). Jesus knew He was/is/will be The Word in One plural unique יהוה God. To me, John 10:30 means: "I and The Father are One יהוה" (fullness of unique אֱלֹהִ֜ים God Spiritual Being includes Breath The Holy). Some Jews reacted to John 10:30 One יהוה meaning by wanting to kill Jesus for blasphemy (cursing God) since all previous humans were unholy sinners so Jesus being One in Holy יהוה was impossible for them to believe. After words spoken by Jesus resulted in a terrifying storm on the Lake of Galilee vanishing: Who is this man that the wind and the waves obey Him ?
Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, but emptied himself by taking the form of a slave, by becoming in the likeness of people. And being found in appearance like a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, that is, death on a cross. Therefore also God exalted him and graciously granted him the name above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and of those on earth and of those under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is יהוה Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:5-11 LEB)
Humanly not know what The Word יהוה Jesus humbly chose to leave in Holy Heaven with God The Father to take on human flesh for the purpose of offering that Holy flesh as a Sin sacrifice (suffering servant as foretold in Isaiah 52:13-53:12). Also, The Word wanted to humbly show humans how freely choosing to Love God first experiences abundant Holy life in unique אֱלֹהִ֜ים God Spiritual Being (during human life & after death).
Therefore, since we also have such a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us, putting aside every weight and the sin that so easily ensnares us, let us run with patient endurance the race that has been set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the originator and perfecter of faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, disregarding the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider the one who endured such hostility by sinners against himself, so that you will not grow weary in your souls and give up. You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood as you struggle against sin. (Hebrews 12:1-4 LEB)
Descending into Hell had Jesus deserving to be in every tormenting place in Hell (consequence of dying for sin actions chosen by humans). Jesus lovingly choose to endure hostility by sinners against Himself (powerful explanation for prayer in Garden of Gethsemane, expressing deep grieving with sweat looking like blood). Appreciating depth of despair in enduring the cross and consequences provides Joy, Joy, Joy beyond word expression for resurrection. For human to experience God's Joy requires belief choice: repent from our sins with turning to Holy God so can be redeemed by Holy Blood, resulting in becoming blameless in God's sight. To me, all of unique אֱלֹהִ֜ים God Spiritual Being participated in the crucifixion (allowed cross execution to happen: can only imagine magnitude of tears by God The Father) and resurrection. Jeremiah 23:5-6 name for God The Father and Jesus is יְהוָ֥ה׀ צִדְקֵֽנוּ YHVH Righteous (has 1st person plural suffix) so can be "Lord Righteous We" or "Lord Righteous Our"
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 11 Caution is eisegetical examples expressing personal faith belief frame of reference (distinction), which ignores what "the text says" to the Jewish author: Lord = κύριος = Adonai => יהוה
@Bill_Coley June 12 So Paul means to say to the Thessalonians, "May the God Jesus Christ and God our Father..."? I don't have to know what the original words meant to the Jewish author to know what they mean as written, AND the fact that basically NO ONE - including Jesus himself - EVER says the simple words, "Jesus is God." The most momentous declaration in human history and basically NO ONE EVER SAYS, "Jesus is God." They have to rely rhetorical creations that they hope their readers will translate correctly. I see no textual basis for such a view. In fact, as I have made clear throughout our exchanges, the overwhelming witness of the biblical text - especially Jesus' own words - is that Jesus was not God.
Truly Jesus is יהוה Lord (part of the unique אֱלֹהִ֜ים God Spiritual Being), but Jesus is not all of the unique אֱלֹהִ֜ים God Spiritual Being. Jesus and The Father are One יהוה, yet have clearly distinct parts in unique אֱלֹהִ֜ים God. Searching Greek New Testament for verses having (Jesus,me) AND God finds two phrases do not appear: "Jesus is God" and "Jesus is NOT God" while does find Matthew 4:7, Matthew 4:10, Luke 4:8, Luke 4:12 (Who is יהוה Lord God over our spiritual adversary ?), John 14:1 command. Jewish Rabbi Jesus received worship from people bowing down to Jesus: e.g. John 20:24-29 ("My Lord and My God"), which violates Exodus 20:4-6 command and sharply contrasts with Angel response in Revelation 22:8-11.
@Bill_Coley June 12 In its translator note for John 13.19, the LEB says "the predicate nominative (“he”) is understood, but must be supplied in the translation," ...
My reply in LEB Slips thread recommended removal of he addition in many LEB verses.
Keep Smiling 😊
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My apologies: rereading my June 14 reply found a clause that needs clarification:
@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus June 14 Jewish Rabbi Jesus received worship from people bowing down to Jesus: e.g. John 20:24-29 ("My Lord and My God"), which violates Exodus 20:4-6 command and sharply contrasts with Angel response in Revelation 22:8-11.
If Jewish Rabbi Jesus did not believe himself to be יהוה Lord, then receiving human worship violates Exodus 20:4-6 command => sin (so if Jesus is NOT God, then Jesus is NOT savior from sin for anyone).
Keep Smiling 😊
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@Keep_Smiling_4_Jesus posted:
Caution is circular reasoning issue: personal faith belief sees the text saying so repeating "the text says" reinforces personal faith belief ideas. Humans can use phrase "the text says" to deceive themselves about what "the text says" (so phrase sounds authoritative while actually declaring personal faith belief ideas, which could be mishandling the Word of God).
Why do you use third person language to raise suspicion about my approach to the biblical text? "Humans can... deceive themselves"? Seriously? Why not just say what you mean, directly?
"Bill, you could be deceiving yourself when you say 'the text says.' Of course, not saying that you actually ARE deceiving yourself. Only saying that you COULD be deceiving yourself, because 'humans' CAN deceive themselves when they say 'the text says,' and, well, you're a human, and... well you know, logic and all. And also only saying you 'could' be mishandling the Word of God. Not saying you actually ARE mishandling the Word of God. Only saying that you COULD be mishandling the Word of God because 'humans' could mishandle the Word of God, and you're a human, and well... you know. (NOTE TO SELF: Puzzled as to what to do with the fact of my own 'human' status. Guess my accusation doesn't amount to much. But thankful that doesn't stop me from making it.)"
I don't know how else to make my point. It's not that we disagree; it's that we can't communicate on this. Your responses show no awareness whatsoever, let alone any understanding, of the point I'm making, no matter how many times or in how many forms I present it. I surrender.
What happens when personal faith belief ideas about what "the text says" does not match what Holy God inspired/intended "the text to say" ?
If a text doesn't say "XYZ," it doesn't say "XYZ," regardless of the reader's "personal faith belief." Genesis 1.1 does NOT say, "the devil created heavens and the earth" REGARDLESS of the "personal faith belief" of the reader. I don't expect you to agree with that claim, so in advance I surrender to you on that point as well.
We disagree about what the Biblical text says (our words reflect our personal faith belief frame of reference ideas about what "the text says").
I agree with you that our exchanges have provided ample evidence of the unwarranted and unbiblical influence that "personal faith belief frames of reference ideas" can have on a person's interpretation of the biblical text.
If The Word is truly in One plural unique יהוה God, would The Word יהוה Jesus be righteously angry & disappointed with text study exhaustion ?
And if lawn grass tasted like cherry licorice, but had the nutritional profile of lean chicken breasts, there'd be a lot less hunger in the world.
AFTER a decade of Bible study, what really changed ? the Bible text itself OR personal faith belief ideas about what "the Bible text itself says" ?
I changed, because for the first time in my faith life I studied the question of the Trinity in Scripture and had my own view of the question. That study - not my teachers' good faith proclamations about it - led me to change my view. The most important change brought about by that study was that my view was finally grounded in what they text said, not what others told me it said.
Thankful for Jewish Pharisees being an intense personal warning about guarding my heart to Love God ❤️ first (with desire to Be Holy as God is Holy, includes Righteous Love ❤️) while intentionally & intently studying God's Word with 🙏 Prayer for God to open my eyes to behold amazing wonders of Holy God Truth 😍 Whether what happened as the Pharisees studied for years has applicability to you is for you to decide.
I wish you well in your response to the "intense personal warning" you discern for yourself in the example of the Jewish Pharisees.
FWIW: every human has a spiritual adversary (enemy), who calls attention to human sin action choices before Holy God (especially evil thoughts placed by spiritual enemy into human brains, which human sinfully choose to obey). "Climbing Into Eternity: My Descent in Hell and Flight to Heaven" by Michele Pulford includes description of Hi Pitch & Lo Pitch voices (and what those tormenting demons looked like in Hell).
And I wish you well in your confrontations with your "spiritual adversary" and the "evil thoughts" it may place in your brain.
For me, am Thankful for Holy God's words always being truthfully consistent (still have much to learn: increasing knowledge helps me appreciate more that do not know). Thankful for God's Word being a treasure hunt 😍 that has included correcting/enhancing/growing my appreciation of God ❤️ Thankful for my heart singing lots of Praise to God daily ❤️ (little child in me enjoys joining all nature in declaring God's Glory & Holiness)
And I wish you well in all of that, too.
Puzzled by your linking of the post in which I offered the "You are..." comment. to a post by @theMadJW on June 11 in thread What does it mean to be in "the image of God?" that quoted a reply followed by:
It was my mistake to attach to your post my "you are a..." comment to @theMadJW; I apologize for the error.
Its place in my response to you WAS on-point, however, in that it showcased the difference between a dismissive and non-dismissive response to your contention. "You are welcome to your point of view," is in no way dismissive. Expressing a belief that your contention is not supported by the biblical text also is not dismissive. Had I replied to your idea, "You are a fool to believe what you believe," THAT would have been dismissive. But I didn't say anything like that.
Appears a decade of Bible study does not want to respectfully acknowledge a previous faith belief frame of reference, but always wants to deny it.
You wouldn't even know about my "previous faith belief frame of reference" had I not acknowledged it.
We simply disagree about purpose of "one, in my view, however, that is not supported by the biblical text." (especially about an if statement)
Given that I wrote the "in my view" statement at issue, I feel confident about my description of its purpose. What's the basis of YOUR confidence in YOUR description of the purpose of the statement I wrote?
Flip side rhetorical question: How many families have hurts from selfish sin choices, not Love God first ? (Thankful for Holy God truly knowing & understanding human hurts, which are way too many for me to count: have cried many, many times, includes reading Michele Pulford's book)
By definition, rhetorical questions don't usually seek responses, so I am not responding to this one.
Seem to remember expressions of "the text says" assertions, which really expressed personal faith belief frame of reference while neglecting Jewish context (e.g. effectively redefined "Lord" after a decade of study doubts resulted in personal theology change of what "the text says"). Also seem to remember a question lacking your insight: What changed in the Jewish Pharisee Paul (Saul) so Jewish leaders wanted to kill Paul ?
You're welcome to your assessments of my "the text says assertions."
As I reported early, my decade of study informed me of what the text says. I didn't know before, so the biblical text decided my view; it didn't change it.
My June 11 post in this thread included a quote from Jewish Publication Society with insight about the name of God, dating Lord = κύριος = Adonai => יהוה in the Second Temple period (prior to Jesus teaching in the Second Temple).
I agree. It did.
If believe God The Father and Lord Jesus Christ are clearly distinct, then how does human obeying Lord Jesus Christ (one sent) really show Agape Love to the clearly distinct God The Father (sender) ?
Because Jesus is the Christ, God's chosen one, a representative and voice for God unlike any other in human history. How could I show agape love for God were I to deny the one God sent for me?
Biblical text itself simply does not say what your CD posts say the text says (really expresses personal faith belief frame of reference as an appeal to an unnamed authority). Intriguing repetition "you are welcome ..., BUT" that reminds me of a person asking for forgiveness in a disrespectful manner: "Please forgive me for ... , BUT here's my view why for ...." (behavior rationalization effectively reduces/eliminates forgiveness sincerity)
No forgiveness requested.
I welcome you to your point of view that "Christ is part of One plural unique יהוה God."
However, I believe your point of view is not supported by the biblical text.
No forgiveness needed.
To really Love God first requires human choice (reason for parables in Mark 4:10-12). Searching Gospels for believe finds many verses. Have 🙏prayed like father's request to Jesus in Mark 9:14-29 a number of times. What did Jesus teach about authority and believing in Matthew 21:23-46 ? What did demons say about Jesus in Mark 1:22-28 ? What did Jesus say in the Luke 4:16-30 synagogue teaching ? Why did hometown people not believe Jesus ? What message was given to the man in Luke 8:26-39 ? What does John 14:1 command about believing in God & in Jesus (me) ?
Your response doesn't address the point I made. So I make this request: Please cite the verse in which Jesus made an explicit connection between his calling himself the disciples' "Lord" and his belief that he was God. If you can't cite such a verse, then you will have made my point that your response here doesn't address.
Truly Jesus is יהוה Lord (part of the unique אֱלֹהִ֜ים God Spiritual Being), but Jesus is not all of the unique אֱלֹהִ֜ים God Spiritual Being. Jesus and The Father are One יהוה, yet have clearly distinct parts in unique אֱלֹהִ֜ים God. Searching Greek New Testament for verses having (Jesus,me) AND God finds two phrases do not appear: "Jesus is God" and "Jesus is NOT God" while does find Matthew 4:7, Matthew 4:10, Luke 4:8, Luke 4:12 (Who is יהוה Lord God over our spiritual adversary ?), John 14:1 command. Jewish Rabbi Jesus received worship from people bowing down to Jesus: e.g. John 20:24-29 ("My Lord and My God"), which violates Exodus 20:4-6 command and sharply contrasts with Angel response in Revelation 22:8-11.
I respect, admire, and praise God for the place your "personal faith belief frame of reference" on this matter has for you.
My reply in LEB Slips thread recommended removal of he addition in many LEB verses.
You're FAR better equipped to address such an interpretive issue than I.
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