The Kingdom of God
Comments
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@Dave_L said:
How do you interpret this scripture? I do not think it can be any more clear that Jesus' body did not begin to rot or decay while in the tomb. My roadkill question was an attempt to make sure you understand what "rot" or "decay" means.“Therefore he also says in another psalm, ‘You will not permit your Holy One to experience decay.’For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died, was buried with his ancestors, and experienced decay, but the one whom God raised up did not experience decay.” (Acts 13:35–37)
I think part of it is the short amount of time the body was actually in the tomb and the preservation process of body burial preparation. I don't think it was because his body was incapable of decay.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
How do you interpret this scripture? I do not think it can be any more clear that Jesus' body did not begin to rot or decay while in the tomb. My roadkill question was an attempt to make sure you understand what "rot" or "decay" means.“Therefore he also says in another psalm, ‘You will not permit your Holy One to experience decay.’For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died, was buried with his ancestors, and experienced decay, but the one whom God raised up did not experience decay.” (Acts 13:35–37)
I think part of it is the short amount of time the body was actually in the tomb and the preservation process of body burial preparation. I don't think it was because his body was incapable of decay.
“For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died, was buried with his ancestors, and experienced decay, but the one whom God raised up did not experience decay.” (Acts 13:36–37)
I see a distinct contrast between David's body decaying in the tomb and Jesus' body not experiencing the same decaying in the tomb.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
How do you interpret this scripture? I do not think it can be any more clear that Jesus' body did not begin to rot or decay while in the tomb. My roadkill question was an attempt to make sure you understand what "rot" or "decay" means.“Therefore he also says in another psalm, ‘You will not permit your Holy One to experience decay.’For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died, was buried with his ancestors, and experienced decay, but the one whom God raised up did not experience decay.” (Acts 13:35–37)
I think part of it is the short amount of time the body was actually in the tomb and the preservation process of body burial preparation. I don't think it was because his body was incapable of decay.
“For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died, was buried with his ancestors, and experienced decay, but the one whom God raised up did not experience decay.” (Acts 13:36–37)
I see a distinct contrast between David's body decaying in the tomb and Jesus' body not experiencing the same decaying in the tomb.
You completely ignored what I said. It was a major difference in time Dave. Otherwise Jesus could not have died at all. If you are dead you are dead.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
How do you interpret this scripture? I do not think it can be any more clear that Jesus' body did not begin to rot or decay while in the tomb. My roadkill question was an attempt to make sure you understand what "rot" or "decay" means.“Therefore he also says in another psalm, ‘You will not permit your Holy One to experience decay.’For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died, was buried with his ancestors, and experienced decay, but the one whom God raised up did not experience decay.” (Acts 13:35–37)
I think part of it is the short amount of time the body was actually in the tomb and the preservation process of body burial preparation. I don't think it was because his body was incapable of decay.
“For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died, was buried with his ancestors, and experienced decay, but the one whom God raised up did not experience decay.” (Acts 13:36–37)
I see a distinct contrast between David's body decaying in the tomb and Jesus' body not experiencing the same decaying in the tomb.
You completely ignored what I said. It was a major difference in time Dave. Otherwise Jesus could not have died at all. If you are dead you are dead.
Certainly you believe if scripture says Jesus' body did not suffer decay, it means exactly that?
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
How do you interpret this scripture? I do not think it can be any more clear that Jesus' body did not begin to rot or decay while in the tomb. My roadkill question was an attempt to make sure you understand what "rot" or "decay" means.“Therefore he also says in another psalm, ‘You will not permit your Holy One to experience decay.’For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died, was buried with his ancestors, and experienced decay, but the one whom God raised up did not experience decay.” (Acts 13:35–37)
I think part of it is the short amount of time the body was actually in the tomb and the preservation process of body burial preparation. I don't think it was because his body was incapable of decay.
“For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died, was buried with his ancestors, and experienced decay, but the one whom God raised up did not experience decay.” (Acts 13:36–37)
I see a distinct contrast between David's body decaying in the tomb and Jesus' body not experiencing the same decaying in the tomb.
You completely ignored what I said. It was a major difference in time Dave. Otherwise Jesus could not have died at all. If you are dead you are dead.
Certainly you believe if scripture says Jesus' body did not suffer decay, it means exactly that?
Dave do you actually read what I write? I have never said that it did suffer from decay.
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@Dave_L said:
How do you interpret this scripture? I do not think it can be any more clear that Jesus' body did not begin to rot or decay while in the tomb. My roadkill question was an attempt to make sure you understand what "rot" or "decay" means.“Therefore he also says in another psalm, ‘You will not permit your Holy One to experience decay.’For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died, was buried with his ancestors, and experienced decay, but the one whom God raised up did not experience decay.” (Acts 13:35–37)
Dave,
The main point of the text is Paul contrasting the life of David who died and was buried; and Jesus, who died, was buried and resurrected. In short, there is hope for those who died (before the return of Jesus), but have faith in the "resurrection power of Jesus."51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15: 51-54).Christ's experience will be theirs. No confusion or misunderstanding here. Blessings! CM
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@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
How do you interpret this scripture? I do not think it can be any more clear that Jesus' body did not begin to rot or decay while in the tomb. My roadkill question was an attempt to make sure you understand what "rot" or "decay" means.“Therefore he also says in another psalm, ‘You will not permit your Holy One to experience decay.’For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died, was buried with his ancestors, and experienced decay, but the one whom God raised up did not experience decay.” (Acts 13:35–37)
Dave,
The main point of the text is Paul contrasting the life of David who died and was buried; and Jesus, who died, was buried and resurrected. In short, there is hope for those who died (before the return of Jesus), but have faith in the "resurrection power of Jesus."51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15: 51-54).Christ's experience will be theirs. No confusion or misunderstanding here. Blessings! CM
This is all good. But I believe if scripture says Jesus' body did not decay the three days and nights it was entombed, it means exactly that.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
How do you interpret this scripture? I do not think it can be any more clear that Jesus' body did not begin to rot or decay while in the tomb. My roadkill question was an attempt to make sure you understand what "rot" or "decay" means.“Therefore he also says in another psalm, ‘You will not permit your Holy One to experience decay.’For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died, was buried with his ancestors, and experienced decay, but the one whom God raised up did not experience decay.” (Acts 13:35–37)
I think part of it is the short amount of time the body was actually in the tomb and the preservation process of body burial preparation. I don't think it was because his body was incapable of decay.
“For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died, was buried with his ancestors, and experienced decay, but the one whom God raised up did not experience decay.” (Acts 13:36–37)
I see a distinct contrast between David's body decaying in the tomb and Jesus' body not experiencing the same decaying in the tomb.
You completely ignored what I said. It was a major difference in time Dave. Otherwise Jesus could not have died at all. If you are dead you are dead.
Perhaps a lack of communication. The Westminster says: IV. This office the Lord Jesus did most willingly undertake;170 which that He might discharge, He was made under the law,171 and did perfectly fulfil it;172 endured most grievous torments immediately in His soul,173 and most painful sufferings in His body;174 was crucified, and died,175 was buried, and remained under the power of death, yet saw no corruption.176
Assembly of Divines at Westminster. Westminster Confession of Faith.
Corruption in Acts 2:27 = 23.205 σήπω; φθοράb, ᾶς f; διαφθορά, ᾶς f: to rot or decay, in reference to organic matter—‘to rot, to decay, decay.’
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 276). New York: United Bible Societies.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
How do you interpret this scripture? I do not think it can be any more clear that Jesus' body did not begin to rot or decay while in the tomb. My roadkill question was an attempt to make sure you understand what "rot" or "decay" means.“Therefore he also says in another psalm, ‘You will not permit your Holy One to experience decay.’For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died, was buried with his ancestors, and experienced decay, but the one whom God raised up did not experience decay.” (Acts 13:35–37)
I think part of it is the short amount of time the body was actually in the tomb and the preservation process of body burial preparation. I don't think it was because his body was incapable of decay.
“For David, after he had served God’s purpose in his own generation, died, was buried with his ancestors, and experienced decay, but the one whom God raised up did not experience decay.” (Acts 13:36–37)
I see a distinct contrast between David's body decaying in the tomb and Jesus' body not experiencing the same decaying in the tomb.
You completely ignored what I said. It was a major difference in time Dave. Otherwise Jesus could not have died at all. If you are dead you are dead.
Perhaps a lack of communication. The Westminster says: IV. This office the Lord Jesus did most willingly undertake;170 which that He might discharge, He was made under the law,171 and did perfectly fulfil it;172 endured most grievous torments immediately in His soul,173 and most painful sufferings in His body;174 was crucified, and died,175 was buried, and remained under the power of death, yet saw no corruption.176
Assembly of Divines at Westminster. Westminster Confession of Faith.
Corruption in Acts 2:27 = 23.205 σήπω; φθοράb, ᾶς f; διαφθορά, ᾶς f: to rot or decay, in reference to organic matter—‘to rot, to decay, decay.’
Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition., Vol. 1, p. 276). New York: United Bible Societies.
You don't get it. I'm not arguing that the body did decay. What I ****am**** saying, is that it doesn't have to do with the body being different than David's, it was the amount of time buried.
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I understand what you are saying and disagree. Jesus' body did not decay in the least. He was not in Adam as David was.
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@Dave_L said:
I understand what you are saying and disagree. Jesus' body did not decay in the least. He was not in Adam as David was.Then he was not 100% human. Decay does not begin immediately upon death Dave.
See the article https://science.howstuffworks.com/body-farm1.htm
This is what I am talking about, it was because of the length of time. If Jesus had been dead for 1 month vs 3 days, his body would most certainly have started to decay.
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It says his body did not decay. The brain starts to go within 4 minutes of death I hear...
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@Dave_L said:
It says his body did not decay. The brain starts to go within 4 minutes of death I hear...Die yes, but death is not the same thing as decay.
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@Dave_L said:
It says his body did not decay. The brain starts to go within 4 minutes of death I hear...Dave, perhaps no harm will come from believing as you do. The reason to discuss the matter is that by high-centering on a tiny detail taken out of context to the extent that it means something entirely wrong, one misses the far more important message which is what the passage actually means. If you miss it you miss it (I miss things too), but it means something beautiful, a gift I hope you can enjoy.
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@Dave_L said:
Jesus preached the Kingdom of God was at hand, not of this world, that it comes without observation and is within you. He said some with him would not die until it arrived. And unless a person is born again they cannot see it. And the disciples would not cover the cities of Israel till He arrived. This suggests the kingdom is spiritual and here now. And that it is not a future physical kingdom.Are we looking for the wrong version of the kingdom? Thinking about it as a physical kingdom? A kingdom where we will walk by sight and not by faith? Rather than a present spiritual kingdom where we walk by faith and lay hold of it once we know what to look for?
Jesus said the Kingdom suffered violence and the violent took it by force since the preaching of John the Baptist....
Bro. Dave,
The Kingdom is so much more than you have introduced here. For starters, Did you know there are two phases of the Kingdom; It's present and future, and it's "at hand?"
Please be aware that in every instance where the word "kingdom" is used by Jesus and the apostles, it is the believers of the church who are citizens of the kingdom. What good news! The unasked question: Who is "worthy of the kingdom of God?". I can unpack these and other points later. As for now, consider these truths on the Kingdom:The kingdom is both present and future.
In the Lord's Prayer, we are to pray, "Thy kingdom come" (Matt. 6:10 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Matt. 6.10))
When it does come at the return of the Son of man in glory, we are to enter it (Matt. 25:31-34 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Matt. 25.31-34)).
And yet, the kingdom is present, for Jesus declared that it had drawn near (Mark 1:15 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Mark 1.15))
It could be entered now (Luke 16:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Luke 16.16)
Matt. 21:31 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Matt. 21.31))
It was present to His contemporaries in His presence, words, and deeds (Luke 17:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Luke 17.21))
As witnessed, for example, by His exorcism of demons by the power of God (Luke 11:20 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Luke 11.20)). I hope all the links work.
Dave, I'm sorry to say, no kingdom is an earthly kingdom, of literal Jews, to be established in Jerusalem after the church is "caught away." Happy reading! CM
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If the Kingdom is not at in part eschatological, then we would never pray, "Your Kingdom come."
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@GaoLu said:
If the Kingdom is not at in part eschatological, then we would never pray, "Your Kingdom come."So then, what will we pray when the kingdom has come?
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We will find out!
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Well, one thing is for sure .... it would make no sense to pray for something to come that is already there ... or would it?
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Right. It would not.
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When we pray “Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done” we are praying for the return of Christ, the resurrection of the dead, the last judgment, and the life to come, in which the Dominion of God is finally fully manifested on earth. I am not seeing that.
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@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
Jesus preached the Kingdom of God was at hand, not of this world, that it comes without observation and is within you. He said some with him would not die until it arrived. And unless a person is born again they cannot see it. And the disciples would not cover the cities of Israel till He arrived. This suggests the kingdom is spiritual and here now. And that it is not a future physical kingdom.Are we looking for the wrong version of the kingdom? Thinking about it as a physical kingdom? A kingdom where we will walk by sight and not by faith? Rather than a present spiritual kingdom where we walk by faith and lay hold of it once we know what to look for?
Jesus said the Kingdom suffered violence and the violent took it by force since the preaching of John the Baptist....
Bro. Dave,
The Kingdom is so much more than you have introduced here. For starters, Did you know there are two phases of the Kingdom; It's present and future, and it's "at hand?"
Please be aware that in every instance where the word "kingdom" is used by Jesus and the apostles, it is the believers of the church who are citizens of the kingdom. What good news! The unasked question: Who is "worthy of the kingdom of God?". I can unpack these and other points later. As for now, consider these truths on the Kingdom:The kingdom is both present and future.
In the Lord's Prayer, we are to pray, "Thy kingdom come" (Matt. 6:10 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Matt. 6.10))
When it does come at the return of the Son of man in glory, we are to enter it (Matt. 25:31-34 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Matt. 25.31-34)).
And yet, the kingdom is present, for Jesus declared that it had drawn near (Mark 1:15 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Mark 1.15))
It could be entered now (Luke 16:16 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Luke 16.16)
Matt. 21:31 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Matt. 21.31))
It was present to His contemporaries in His presence, words, and deeds (Luke 17:21 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Luke 17.21))
As witnessed, for example, by His exorcism of demons by the power of God (Luke 11:20 (http://biblia.com/bible/niv/Luke 11.20)). I hope all the links work.
Dave, I'm sorry to say, no kingdom is an earthly kingdom, of literal Jews, to be established in Jerusalem after the church is "caught away." Happy reading! CM
Thanks for sharing your insights. I too believe Jesus will never establish a physical Kingdom on this present earth. But his Kingdom is a present reality in Heaven where he sits on David's Throne ruling over the nations of the earth. But, unless a person is Born Again, they cannot grasp it, seeking a kingdom based on sight instead of faith.
The Kingdom will also prevail over the New Heavens and Earth forever when the time comes.
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@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
It says his body did not decay. The brain starts to go within 4 minutes of death I hear...Dave, perhaps no harm will come from believing as you do. The reason to discuss the matter is that by high-centering on a tiny detail taken out of context to the extent that it means something entirely wrong, one misses the far more important message which is what the passage actually means. If you miss it you miss it (I miss things too), but it means something beautiful, a gift I hope you can enjoy.
I think people are demanding more from Christ's death on the cross than necessary. They say he must rot in the grave too. Or die spiritually and go to hell in order to atone for sin. But if we back up, he needed to shed his blood to the point of death to atone for sin. And he needed to fulfill the Law perfectly. This he did when he said "it is finished". No further need to rot in the grave or die spiritually, which God cannot do, and suffer in hell. He did preach there while in Heaven since he is omnipresent.
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@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
It says his body did not decay. The brain starts to go within 4 minutes of death I hear...Dave, perhaps no harm will come from believing as you do. The reason to discuss the matter is that by high-centering on a tiny detail taken out of context to the extent that it means something entirely wrong, one misses the far more important message which is what the passage actually means. If you miss it you miss it (I miss things too), but it means something beautiful, a gift I hope you can enjoy.
I think people are demanding more from Christ's death on the cross than necessary. They say he must rot in the grave too. Or die spiritually and go to hell in order to atone for sin. But if we back up, he needed to shed his blood to the point of death to atone for sin. And he needed to fulfill the Law perfectly. This he did when he said "it is finished". No further need to rot in the grave or die spiritually, which God cannot do, and suffer in hell. He did preach there while in Heaven since he is omnipresent.
Who is saying his body needed to rot? And where in the world does it say He preached in Hell?
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
It says his body did not decay. The brain starts to go within 4 minutes of death I hear...Dave, perhaps no harm will come from believing as you do. The reason to discuss the matter is that by high-centering on a tiny detail taken out of context to the extent that it means something entirely wrong, one misses the far more important message which is what the passage actually means. If you miss it you miss it (I miss things too), but it means something beautiful, a gift I hope you can enjoy.
I think people are demanding more from Christ's death on the cross than necessary. They say he must rot in the grave too. Or die spiritually and go to hell in order to atone for sin. But if we back up, he needed to shed his blood to the point of death to atone for sin. And he needed to fulfill the Law perfectly. This he did when he said "it is finished". No further need to rot in the grave or die spiritually, which God cannot do, and suffer in hell. He did preach there while in Heaven since he is omnipresent.
Who is saying his body needed to rot? And where in the world does it say He preached in Hell?
Did Jesus' brain begin to rot 4 minutes after his heart stopped beating? Did Jesus preach to the spirits in prison as Peter claims?
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
It says his body did not decay. The brain starts to go within 4 minutes of death I hear...Dave, perhaps no harm will come from believing as you do. The reason to discuss the matter is that by high-centering on a tiny detail taken out of context to the extent that it means something entirely wrong, one misses the far more important message which is what the passage actually means. If you miss it you miss it (I miss things too), but it means something beautiful, a gift I hope you can enjoy.
I think people are demanding more from Christ's death on the cross than necessary. They say he must rot in the grave too. Or die spiritually and go to hell in order to atone for sin. But if we back up, he needed to shed his blood to the point of death to atone for sin. And he needed to fulfill the Law perfectly. This he did when he said "it is finished". No further need to rot in the grave or die spiritually, which God cannot do, and suffer in hell. He did preach there while in Heaven since he is omnipresent.
Who is saying his body needed to rot? And where in the world does it say He preached in Hell?
Did Jesus' brain begin to rot 4 minutes after his heart stopped beating? Did Jesus preach to the spirits in prison as Peter claims?
No, as I have stated, the body does not start to rot after four minutes for ANYONE. That's not how it works. David's brain also would not have started to rot after 4 minutes. When you pass your brain will not rot that quickly either. That is nothing special to Jesus' body. He was not dead long enough to begin to rot, that is the point.
As to your second point, there is much debate about the 1 Peter passage and what exactly it means. But it does not specifically say Christ preached in Hell.
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When does the body begin to rot? Did Jesus' body begin to rot in the tomb? Peter says it did not.
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@Dave_L said:
When does the body begin to rot? Did Jesus' body begin to rot in the tomb? Peter says it did not.Did you not see the link I sent earlier. It takes over 72 hours (three days) before decay and rot begin to occur. Therefore, since Christ's body was in the tomb for less than that, it would not have begun to rot. However, if his body was in the tomb for two months, it most certainly would have begun to rot.
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This I also disagree with. Jesus did not inherit Adam's sin and death. Jesus' substitutionary death was complete when he said "it is finished". I can find websites that differ greatly with your findings so it is a moot point. What the point is, is, if you believe Peter and Psalms or not.
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@Dave_L said:
This I also disagree with. Jesus did not inherit Adam's sin and death. Jesus' substitutionary death was complete when he said "it is finished". I can find websites that differ greatly with your findings so it is a moot point. What the point is, is, if you believe Peter and Psalms or not.I believe them but you are wrong. If Jesus body could not rot it also could not die. If you find evidence to the contrary, present it. You have a real knack for making claims saying you have evidence then refusing to present it.
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