The Kingdom of God
Comments
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
Dave,
What is your plain reading and exegetical outlay of Heb. 4:13-16 (KJV)? No rush, take your time. Please consider the context. CM"tempted, yet without sin" is why Jesus' body was not subject to decay. In fact, Peter and Paul both imply it was so far removed from him, he would not even SEE it from a distance.
No they didn't. Not once did they say that. They said he did not decay because he was raised.
You keep adding this in about not capable of decay. You have yet to show one shred of evidence that is true.
I already provided evidence. But I'll rephrase it: how can the incorruptible Word become corruptible flesh and still be the incorruptible Word that dwelt among us?
The same way he was able to become human and die in the first place.
Also as I mentioned, Peter and Paul both said Jesus' body would not SEE corruption while in the tomb, let alone enter the first stages of decomposition.
Yes, which does not support your claim of not being capable of decomposition.
If Peter and Paul quote and interpret David saying Jesus' body saw no decay, it means exactly that. None of the three say anything about time being the reason. The fact is, Jesus is the incorruptible Word of God which also means exactly that. None of him, body, soul and Spirit were ever subject to corruption also called decay.
Let's make a few things clear.
Both of us agree Jesus' body saw no decay so I don't know why you keep making that a point.
No, they don't say time is the reason. They ALSO don't say that it is because it could not decay. So you can't use that argument.
We know bodies do not start to decay in the first 72 hours under the condition that Jesus body was under.
Just because his body was never subjected to corruption does not mean that it could not decay. If you take that route you must read something there that isn't there.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
Dave,
What is your plain reading and exegetical outlay of Heb. 4:13-16 (KJV)? No rush, take your time. Please consider the context. CM"tempted, yet without sin" is why Jesus' body was not subject to decay. In fact, Peter and Paul both imply it was so far removed from him, he would not even SEE it from a distance.
No they didn't. Not once did they say that. They said he did not decay because he was raised.
You keep adding this in about not capable of decay. You have yet to show one shred of evidence that is true.
I already provided evidence. But I'll rephrase it: how can the incorruptible Word become corruptible flesh and still be the incorruptible Word that dwelt among us?
The same way he was able to become human and die in the first place.
Also as I mentioned, Peter and Paul both said Jesus' body would not SEE corruption while in the tomb, let alone enter the first stages of decomposition.
Yes, which does not support your claim of not being capable of decomposition.
If Peter and Paul quote and interpret David saying Jesus' body saw no decay, it means exactly that. None of the three say anything about time being the reason. The fact is, Jesus is the incorruptible Word of God which also means exactly that. None of him, body, soul and Spirit were ever subject to corruption also called decay.
Let's make a few things clear.
Both of us agree Jesus' body saw no decay so I don't know why you keep making that a point.
No, they don't say time is the reason. They ALSO don't say that it is because it could not decay. So you can't use that argument.
We know bodies do not start to decay in the first 72 hours under the condition that Jesus body was under.
Just because his body was never subjected to corruption does not mean that it could not decay. If you take that route you must read something there that isn't there.
It sounds as though you are beating a dead horse. No pun intended. But as I pointed out before, the abortionists use your same mode of thinking when they say life does not become valid until so much time passes by. But we know it begins at the moment of conception. Just as decay and dissolution of the body begins at the moment of death.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
Dave,
What is your plain reading and exegetical outlay of Heb. 4:13-16 (KJV)? No rush, take your time. Please consider the context. CM"tempted, yet without sin" is why Jesus' body was not subject to decay. In fact, Peter and Paul both imply it was so far removed from him, he would not even SEE it from a distance.
No they didn't. Not once did they say that. They said he did not decay because he was raised.
You keep adding this in about not capable of decay. You have yet to show one shred of evidence that is true.
I already provided evidence. But I'll rephrase it: how can the incorruptible Word become corruptible flesh and still be the incorruptible Word that dwelt among us?
The same way he was able to become human and die in the first place.
Also as I mentioned, Peter and Paul both said Jesus' body would not SEE corruption while in the tomb, let alone enter the first stages of decomposition.
Yes, which does not support your claim of not being capable of decomposition.
If Peter and Paul quote and interpret David saying Jesus' body saw no decay, it means exactly that. None of the three say anything about time being the reason. The fact is, Jesus is the incorruptible Word of God which also means exactly that. None of him, body, soul and Spirit were ever subject to corruption also called decay.
Let's make a few things clear.
Both of us agree Jesus' body saw no decay so I don't know why you keep making that a point.
No, they don't say time is the reason. They ALSO don't say that it is because it could not decay. So you can't use that argument.
We know bodies do not start to decay in the first 72 hours under the condition that Jesus body was under.
Just because his body was never subjected to corruption does not mean that it could not decay. If you take that route you must read something there that isn't there.
It sounds as though you are beating a dead horse. No pun intended.
Only because you can't see how you are reading into Scripture something that is not there.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
Dave,
What is your plain reading and exegetical outlay of Heb. 4:13-16 (KJV)? No rush, take your time. Please consider the context. CM"tempted, yet without sin" is why Jesus' body was not subject to decay. In fact, Peter and Paul both imply it was so far removed from him, he would not even SEE it from a distance.
No they didn't. Not once did they say that. They said he did not decay because he was raised.
You keep adding this in about not capable of decay. You have yet to show one shred of evidence that is true.
I already provided evidence. But I'll rephrase it: how can the incorruptible Word become corruptible flesh and still be the incorruptible Word that dwelt among us?
The same way he was able to become human and die in the first place.
Also as I mentioned, Peter and Paul both said Jesus' body would not SEE corruption while in the tomb, let alone enter the first stages of decomposition.
Yes, which does not support your claim of not being capable of decomposition.
If Peter and Paul quote and interpret David saying Jesus' body saw no decay, it means exactly that. None of the three say anything about time being the reason. The fact is, Jesus is the incorruptible Word of God which also means exactly that. None of him, body, soul and Spirit were ever subject to corruption also called decay.
Let's make a few things clear.
Both of us agree Jesus' body saw no decay so I don't know why you keep making that a point.
No, they don't say time is the reason. They ALSO don't say that it is because it could not decay. So you can't use that argument.
We know bodies do not start to decay in the first 72 hours under the condition that Jesus body was under.
Just because his body was never subjected to corruption does not mean that it could not decay. If you take that route you must read something there that isn't there.
It sounds as though you are beating a dead horse. No pun intended.
Only because you can't see how you are reading into Scripture something that is not there.
You are reading "time" into Peter's and Paul"s scriptures. Forcing an interpretation based on who knows what. I'm only saying you cannot do that and remain true to the text.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
Dave,
What is your plain reading and exegetical outlay of Heb. 4:13-16 (KJV)? No rush, take your time. Please consider the context. CM"tempted, yet without sin" is why Jesus' body was not subject to decay. In fact, Peter and Paul both imply it was so far removed from him, he would not even SEE it from a distance.
No they didn't. Not once did they say that. They said he did not decay because he was raised.
You keep adding this in about not capable of decay. You have yet to show one shred of evidence that is true.
I already provided evidence. But I'll rephrase it: how can the incorruptible Word become corruptible flesh and still be the incorruptible Word that dwelt among us?
The same way he was able to become human and die in the first place.
Also as I mentioned, Peter and Paul both said Jesus' body would not SEE corruption while in the tomb, let alone enter the first stages of decomposition.
Yes, which does not support your claim of not being capable of decomposition.
If Peter and Paul quote and interpret David saying Jesus' body saw no decay, it means exactly that. None of the three say anything about time being the reason. The fact is, Jesus is the incorruptible Word of God which also means exactly that. None of him, body, soul and Spirit were ever subject to corruption also called decay.
Let's make a few things clear.
Both of us agree Jesus' body saw no decay so I don't know why you keep making that a point.
No, they don't say time is the reason. They ALSO don't say that it is because it could not decay. So you can't use that argument.
We know bodies do not start to decay in the first 72 hours under the condition that Jesus body was under.
Just because his body was never subjected to corruption does not mean that it could not decay. If you take that route you must read something there that isn't there.
It sounds as though you are beating a dead horse. No pun intended.
Only because you can't see how you are reading into Scripture something that is not there.
You are reading "time" into Peter's and Paul"s scriptures. Forcing an interpretation based on who knows what. I'm only saying you cannot do that and remain true to the text.
No I'm not. I'm basing time on what we know to be scientifically true. The text says nothing about Jesus' body not being capable of decomposing. It says that he was not subjected to that because God raised him from the dead. Show me one verse where it actually states that his body was not capable of decomposing if he were not raised from the dead. Youc an't because it does not exist.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@C_M_ said:
Dave,
What is your plain reading and exegetical outlay of Heb. 4:13-16 (KJV)? No rush, take your time. Please consider the context. CM"tempted, yet without sin" is why Jesus' body was not subject to decay. In fact, Peter and Paul both imply it was so far removed from him, he would not even SEE it from a distance.
No they didn't. Not once did they say that. They said he did not decay because he was raised.
You keep adding this in about not capable of decay. You have yet to show one shred of evidence that is true.
I already provided evidence. But I'll rephrase it: how can the incorruptible Word become corruptible flesh and still be the incorruptible Word that dwelt among us?
The same way he was able to become human and die in the first place.
Also as I mentioned, Peter and Paul both said Jesus' body would not SEE corruption while in the tomb, let alone enter the first stages of decomposition.
Yes, which does not support your claim of not being capable of decomposition.
If Peter and Paul quote and interpret David saying Jesus' body saw no decay, it means exactly that. None of the three say anything about time being the reason. The fact is, Jesus is the incorruptible Word of God which also means exactly that. None of him, body, soul and Spirit were ever subject to corruption also called decay.
Let's make a few things clear.
Both of us agree Jesus' body saw no decay so I don't know why you keep making that a point.
No, they don't say time is the reason. They ALSO don't say that it is because it could not decay. So you can't use that argument.
We know bodies do not start to decay in the first 72 hours under the condition that Jesus body was under.
Just because his body was never subjected to corruption does not mean that it could not decay. If you take that route you must read something there that isn't there.
It sounds as though you are beating a dead horse. No pun intended.
Only because you can't see how you are reading into Scripture something that is not there.
You are reading "time" into Peter's and Paul"s scriptures. Forcing an interpretation based on who knows what. I'm only saying you cannot do that and remain true to the text.
No I'm not. I'm basing time on what we know to be scientifically true. The text says nothing about Jesus' body not being capable of decomposing. It says that he was not subjected to that because God raised him from the dead. Show me one verse where it actually states that his body was not capable of decomposing if he were not raised from the dead. Youc an't because it does not exist.
We must guard against doing what less fortunate have done, that is: “And [they] changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.” (Romans 1:23)
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” (1 Peter 1:18–19)
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Just my opinion, but if Dave wants to think that for some reason Jesus' body was not a normal human body, let him have it. My bigger concern is that he doesn't think Jesus was the Word made flesh--but that Jesus was made of some other alien substance.
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@GaoLu said:
Just my opinion, but if Dave wants to think that for some reason Jesus' body was not a normal human body, let him have it. My bigger concern is that he doesn't think Jesus was the Word made flesh--but that Jesus was made of some other alien substance.The difference is in the term "Corruption" also translated "decay". It is a direct result of sin. The wages of sin is death. But Peter says:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” (1 Peter 1:18–19)
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@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
Just my opinion, but if Dave wants to think that for some reason Jesus' body was not a normal human body, let him have it. My bigger concern is that he doesn't think Jesus was the Word made flesh--but that Jesus was made of some other alien substance.The difference is in the term "Corruption" also translated "decay". It is a direct result of sin. The wages of sin is death. But Peter says:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” (1 Peter 1:18–19)
Without blemish and spot which has nothing to do with whether or not his body had the capacity to decay.
Was Jesus 100% human or not? You can't have it both ways Dave.
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“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:”
That passage you quote from the Bible is really is clear about what Peter actually meant. It certainly throws your theory on its head.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
Just my opinion, but if Dave wants to think that for some reason Jesus' body was not a normal human body, let him have it. My bigger concern is that he doesn't think Jesus was the Word made flesh--but that Jesus was made of some other alien substance.The difference is in the term "Corruption" also translated "decay". It is a direct result of sin. The wages of sin is death. But Peter says:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” (1 Peter 1:18–19)
Without blemish and spot which has nothing to do with whether or not his body had the capacity to decay.
Was Jesus 100% human or not? You can't have it both ways Dave.
The creeds say Jesus was fully human as far as his nature. But His Spirit was God, not human. If he was fully man and fully God he would have two persons instead of one.
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@GaoLu said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:”
That passage you quote from the Bible is really is clear about what Peter actually meant. It certainly throws your theory on its head.
The gospel includes Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. But you are discounting the value of his burial suggesting he was subject to the same decay any sinner who dies of old age is. And you follow by suggesting God limited the decay to 3 days and nights using the resurrection. But Peter and Paul said his burial did not include decay, using David's death and decay from old age as a point of comparison.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
Just my opinion, but if Dave wants to think that for some reason Jesus' body was not a normal human body, let him have it. My bigger concern is that he doesn't think Jesus was the Word made flesh--but that Jesus was made of some other alien substance.The difference is in the term "Corruption" also translated "decay". It is a direct result of sin. The wages of sin is death. But Peter says:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” (1 Peter 1:18–19)
Without blemish and spot which has nothing to do with whether or not his body had the capacity to decay.
Was Jesus 100% human or not? You can't have it both ways Dave.
The creeds say Jesus was fully human as far as his nature. But His Spirit was God, not human. If he was fully man and fully God he would have two persons instead of one.
Flesh is not the same as spirit. His flesh was fully human and had the capacity to decompose. He did not have to sin for cells and tissue to decompose once dead. Where you get that from I will never know.> @Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:”
That passage you quote from the Bible is really is clear about what Peter actually meant. It certainly throws your theory on its head.
The gospel includes Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. But you are discounting the value of his burial suggesting he was subject to the same decay any sinner who dies of old age is. And you follow by suggesting God limited the decay to 3 days and nights using the resurrection. But Peter and Paul said his burial did not include decay, using David's death and decay from old age as a point of comparison.
For the last time DECAY DOES NOT HAPPEN THAT QUICKLY! Is a funeral immediately after death today? No. Is that body showing any sign of decay? NO.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
Just my opinion, but if Dave wants to think that for some reason Jesus' body was not a normal human body, let him have it. My bigger concern is that he doesn't think Jesus was the Word made flesh--but that Jesus was made of some other alien substance.The difference is in the term "Corruption" also translated "decay". It is a direct result of sin. The wages of sin is death. But Peter says:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” (1 Peter 1:18–19)
Without blemish and spot which has nothing to do with whether or not his body had the capacity to decay.
Was Jesus 100% human or not? You can't have it both ways Dave.
The creeds say Jesus was fully human as far as his nature. But His Spirit was God, not human. If he was fully man and fully God he would have two persons instead of one.
Flesh is not the same as spirit. His flesh was fully human and had the capacity to decompose. He did not have to sin for cells and tissue to decompose once dead. Where you get that from I will never know.> @Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:”
That passage you quote from the Bible is really is clear about what Peter actually meant. It certainly throws your theory on its head.
The gospel includes Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. But you are discounting the value of his burial suggesting he was subject to the same decay any sinner who dies of old age is. And you follow by suggesting God limited the decay to 3 days and nights using the resurrection. But Peter and Paul said his burial did not include decay, using David's death and decay from old age as a point of comparison.
For the last time DECAY DOES NOT HAPPEN THAT QUICKLY! Is a funeral immediately after death today? No. Is that body showing any sign of decay? NO.
Only sinful flesh can decompose. Jesus was sinless. Also he was the incorruptible Word of God who became Flesh (the likeness of sinful flesh). You are robbing God of his glory to attribute the miraculous nature of his death, burial, and resurrection to the blind forces of nature.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
Just my opinion, but if Dave wants to think that for some reason Jesus' body was not a normal human body, let him have it. My bigger concern is that he doesn't think Jesus was the Word made flesh--but that Jesus was made of some other alien substance.The difference is in the term "Corruption" also translated "decay". It is a direct result of sin. The wages of sin is death. But Peter says:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” (1 Peter 1:18–19)
Without blemish and spot which has nothing to do with whether or not his body had the capacity to decay.
Was Jesus 100% human or not? You can't have it both ways Dave.
The creeds say Jesus was fully human as far as his nature. But His Spirit was God, not human. If he was fully man and fully God he would have two persons instead of one.
Flesh is not the same as spirit. His flesh was fully human and had the capacity to decompose. He did not have to sin for cells and tissue to decompose once dead. Where you get that from I will never know.> @Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:”
That passage you quote from the Bible is really is clear about what Peter actually meant. It certainly throws your theory on its head.
The gospel includes Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. But you are discounting the value of his burial suggesting he was subject to the same decay any sinner who dies of old age is. And you follow by suggesting God limited the decay to 3 days and nights using the resurrection. But Peter and Paul said his burial did not include decay, using David's death and decay from old age as a point of comparison.
For the last time DECAY DOES NOT HAPPEN THAT QUICKLY! Is a funeral immediately after death today? No. Is that body showing any sign of decay? NO.
Only sinful flesh can decompose. Jesus was sinless. Also he was the incorruptible Word of God who became Flesh (the likeness of sinful flesh). You are robbing God of his glory to attribute the miraculous nature of his death, burial, and resurrection to the blind forces of nature.
Show me in Scripture that only sinful flesh can decompose. You won't find it. It's not there. I am not robbing God of his glory. He set aside his glory when he came to earth.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
Just my opinion, but if Dave wants to think that for some reason Jesus' body was not a normal human body, let him have it. My bigger concern is that he doesn't think Jesus was the Word made flesh--but that Jesus was made of some other alien substance.The difference is in the term "Corruption" also translated "decay". It is a direct result of sin. The wages of sin is death. But Peter says:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” (1 Peter 1:18–19)
Without blemish and spot which has nothing to do with whether or not his body had the capacity to decay.
Was Jesus 100% human or not? You can't have it both ways Dave.
The creeds say Jesus was fully human as far as his nature. But His Spirit was God, not human. If he was fully man and fully God he would have two persons instead of one.
Flesh is not the same as spirit. His flesh was fully human and had the capacity to decompose. He did not have to sin for cells and tissue to decompose once dead. Where you get that from I will never know.> @Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:”
That passage you quote from the Bible is really is clear about what Peter actually meant. It certainly throws your theory on its head.
The gospel includes Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. But you are discounting the value of his burial suggesting he was subject to the same decay any sinner who dies of old age is. And you follow by suggesting God limited the decay to 3 days and nights using the resurrection. But Peter and Paul said his burial did not include decay, using David's death and decay from old age as a point of comparison.
For the last time DECAY DOES NOT HAPPEN THAT QUICKLY! Is a funeral immediately after death today? No. Is that body showing any sign of decay? NO.
Only sinful flesh can decompose. Jesus was sinless. Also he was the incorruptible Word of God who became Flesh (the likeness of sinful flesh). You are robbing God of his glory to attribute the miraculous nature of his death, burial, and resurrection to the blind forces of nature.
Show me in Scripture that only sinful flesh can decompose. You won't find it. It's not there. I am not robbing God of his glory. He set aside his glory when he came to earth.
If David died of old age and his body decayed, why would Peter and Paul use this in contrast saying it was not the case with Jesus' body? But you say that it was? You are not preaching the same gospel they preached if you teach the only thing keeping Jesus body from decay was the brief time God allowed it to rot.
Post edited by Dave_L on -
@Dave_L said:
Would Adam have died and decomposed had he not sinned?Yes, he would have ....
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Based on what? Paul says the wages of sin is death.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
Just my opinion, but if Dave wants to think that for some reason Jesus' body was not a normal human body, let him have it. My bigger concern is that he doesn't think Jesus was the Word made flesh--but that Jesus was made of some other alien substance.The difference is in the term "Corruption" also translated "decay". It is a direct result of sin. The wages of sin is death. But Peter says:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” (1 Peter 1:18–19)
Without blemish and spot which has nothing to do with whether or not his body had the capacity to decay.
Was Jesus 100% human or not? You can't have it both ways Dave.
The creeds say Jesus was fully human as far as his nature. But His Spirit was God, not human. If he was fully man and fully God he would have two persons instead of one.
Flesh is not the same as spirit. His flesh was fully human and had the capacity to decompose. He did not have to sin for cells and tissue to decompose once dead. Where you get that from I will never know.> @Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:”
That passage you quote from the Bible is really is clear about what Peter actually meant. It certainly throws your theory on its head.
The gospel includes Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. But you are discounting the value of his burial suggesting he was subject to the same decay any sinner who dies of old age is. And you follow by suggesting God limited the decay to 3 days and nights using the resurrection. But Peter and Paul said his burial did not include decay, using David's death and decay from old age as a point of comparison.
For the last time DECAY DOES NOT HAPPEN THAT QUICKLY! Is a funeral immediately after death today? No. Is that body showing any sign of decay? NO.
Only sinful flesh can decompose. Jesus was sinless. Also he was the incorruptible Word of God who became Flesh (the likeness of sinful flesh). You are robbing God of his glory to attribute the miraculous nature of his death, burial, and resurrection to the blind forces of nature.
Show me in Scripture that only sinful flesh can decompose. You won't find it. It's not there. I am not robbing God of his glory. He set aside his glory when he came to earth.
If David died of old age and his body decayed, why would Peter and Paul use this in contrast saying it was not the case with Jesus' body? But you say that it was? You are not preaching the same gospel they preached if you teach the only thing keeping Jesus body from decay was the brief time God allowed it to rot.
The contrast was that Jesus was raised from the dead and David was not. David decayed because he was never raised. Jesus body did not decay because he was raised in a short period of time.
That is not a different Gospel, that is exactly what Scripture says. You are the only one reading things into it.
-
What kind of trick question is this?
If Adam/Eve didn't sin; No, he or they would not have died. With no death, no decomposition. Our first parents were made to live forever, according to the original intent. From creation, they (Adam and Eve) had what some called, "conditional immortality." This is what the test of the tree was all about (trust/loyalty/obedience). Yielding to Satan's lies and temptations, they were driven from the garden. God never intended for Adam and Eve to experienced sin. God, in His wisdom and grace, had the plan of salvation in place (before the foundation of the world) for their redemption. CM
-
@Dave_L said:
Only sinful flesh can decompose. Jesus was sinless. Also he was the incorruptible Word of God who became Flesh (the likeness of sinful flesh). You are robbing God of his glory to attribute the miraculous nature of his death, burial, and resurrection to the blind forces of nature.
Dave,
As a dyed-in-the-wool, Protestant Reformer, are you in some way bound by doctrine dogma of the immaculate conception? If you are, may I remind you that the Bible does not support this doctrine? (Ps. 51:5; Rom. 3:23).
A brief look back, we see, the dogma of the immaculate conception of Mary by Pius IX (1846-1878) brought forth when he tried desperately to re-establish power, with his 1854 Dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. It was on December 8, 1854, Pope Pius IX made a proclamation that the church recognized that Mary was immaculately conceived. It required many years to arrive at this conclusion, but now it is an article of faith, and for a Roman Catholic to doubt it would be heresy.
If what the Catholic Church teaches is true, that Mary was born immaculate, with no bias toward sin, then Christ can never sympathize with any of us poor sinners. If Mary could not sin and was "never for an instant subject to the dominion of Satan," then Christ was born with the same immunity. This is not the Christ of the Holy Scriptures, which state that He took sinful flesh. "God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh." Rom. 8:3.
"We define that the Blessed Virgin Mary in the first moment of her conception, by the singular grace and privilege of Almighty God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from every stain of original sin." p. 140.
"The Church, however, declares that the Blessed Virgin Mary was exempted from the stain of original sin by the merits of our Savior, Jesus Christ; and that, consequently, she was never- for an instant subject to the dominion of Satan. This is what is meant by the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception." James Cardinal Gibbons, Faith of Our Fathers (1917 ed.), p. 220.
The Word of God is silent on the theory of "the passive conception" of the Virgin Mary. Nor does it even intimate that she was sanctified in the first moment of her conception, thus freeing her from "the stain of original guilt."
As you well know the IMMACULATE CONCEPTION is one of several reasons why the Apocrypha is rejected as inspired texts.
• Wisdom 8:19-20. "And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled." Catholics use this text to support their doctrine that Mary was born sinless.
• Luke 1:30-35. There was only one whom the Holy Word states were immaculately conceived, and that one was our Saviour.Dave, where are you on the matter? However, If I am misrepresenting your position, I stand to be corrected. On the other hand, if my post needs to be redirected, a gentle suggestion would suffice. CM
-
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:”
That passage you quote from the Bible is really is clear about what Peter actually meant. It certainly throws your theory on its head.
The gospel includes Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. But you are discounting the value of his burial suggesting he was subject to the same decay any sinner who dies of old age is. And you follow by suggesting God limited the decay to 3 days and nights using the resurrection. But Peter and Paul said his burial did not include decay, using David's death and decay from old age as a point of comparison.
You are quite the inventor!
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
Just my opinion, but if Dave wants to think that for some reason Jesus' body was not a normal human body, let him have it. My bigger concern is that he doesn't think Jesus was the Word made flesh--but that Jesus was made of some other alien substance.The difference is in the term "Corruption" also translated "decay". It is a direct result of sin. The wages of sin is death. But Peter says:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” (1 Peter 1:18–19)
Without blemish and spot which has nothing to do with whether or not his body had the capacity to decay.
Was Jesus 100% human or not? You can't have it both ways Dave.
The creeds say Jesus was fully human as far as his nature. But His Spirit was God, not human. If he was fully man and fully God he would have two persons instead of one.
Flesh is not the same as spirit. His flesh was fully human and had the capacity to decompose. He did not have to sin for cells and tissue to decompose once dead. Where you get that from I will never know.> @Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:”
That passage you quote from the Bible is really is clear about what Peter actually meant. It certainly throws your theory on its head.
The gospel includes Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. But you are discounting the value of his burial suggesting he was subject to the same decay any sinner who dies of old age is. And you follow by suggesting God limited the decay to 3 days and nights using the resurrection. But Peter and Paul said his burial did not include decay, using David's death and decay from old age as a point of comparison.
For the last time DECAY DOES NOT HAPPEN THAT QUICKLY! Is a funeral immediately after death today? No. Is that body showing any sign of decay? NO.
Only sinful flesh can decompose. Jesus was sinless. Also he was the incorruptible Word of God who became Flesh (the likeness of sinful flesh). You are robbing God of his glory to attribute the miraculous nature of his death, burial, and resurrection to the blind forces of nature.
Show me in Scripture that only sinful flesh can decompose. You won't find it. It's not there. I am not robbing God of his glory. He set aside his glory when he came to earth.
If David died of old age and his body decayed, why would Peter and Paul use this in contrast saying it was not the case with Jesus' body? But you say that it was? You are not preaching the same gospel they preached if you teach the only thing keeping Jesus body from decay was the brief time God allowed it to rot.
The contrast was that Jesus was raised from the dead and David was not. David decayed because he was never raised. Jesus body did not decay because he was raised in a short period of time.
That is not a different Gospel, that is exactly what Scripture says. You are the only one reading things into it.
The contrast is not that David will be raised from dead as Christ was. No contrast here. The contrast is in the fact that David's body decayed and Jesus' body did not.
-
@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:”
That passage you quote from the Bible is really is clear about what Peter actually meant. It certainly throws your theory on its head.
The gospel includes Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. But you are discounting the value of his burial suggesting he was subject to the same decay any sinner who dies of old age is. And you follow by suggesting God limited the decay to 3 days and nights using the resurrection. But Peter and Paul said his burial did not include decay, using David's death and decay from old age as a point of comparison.
You are quite the inventor!
If you think Jesus's body was subject to decay in the tomb, you preach a different gospel than Peter and Paul who both said he "didn't see decay", let alone experience.
-
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” (1 Peter 1:18–19)
How can Jesus' blood not be considered not among "corruptible" things, if the only thing that kept it from corruption was time? Time is what causes corruption.
You suggest God pulled his body out of the tomb before it had a chance to rot too much. But we know decay sets in at the moment of death. And Lazarus emitted a profuse odor that made resurrecting him from the tomb on the 4th day, at least questionable by those who loved him.
BODY DECOMPOSITION TIMELINE
24-72 hours after death — the internal organs decompose.3-5 days after death — the body starts to bloat and blood-containing foam leaks from the mouth and nose.
8-10 days after death — the body turns from green to red as the blood decomposes and the organs in the abdomen accumulate gas.
Several weeks after death — nails and teeth fall out.
1 month after death — the body starts to liquify.
-
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
Just my opinion, but if Dave wants to think that for some reason Jesus' body was not a normal human body, let him have it. My bigger concern is that he doesn't think Jesus was the Word made flesh--but that Jesus was made of some other alien substance.The difference is in the term "Corruption" also translated "decay". It is a direct result of sin. The wages of sin is death. But Peter says:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” (1 Peter 1:18–19)
Without blemish and spot which has nothing to do with whether or not his body had the capacity to decay.
Was Jesus 100% human or not? You can't have it both ways Dave.
The creeds say Jesus was fully human as far as his nature. But His Spirit was God, not human. If he was fully man and fully God he would have two persons instead of one.
Flesh is not the same as spirit. His flesh was fully human and had the capacity to decompose. He did not have to sin for cells and tissue to decompose once dead. Where you get that from I will never know.> @Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:”
That passage you quote from the Bible is really is clear about what Peter actually meant. It certainly throws your theory on its head.
The gospel includes Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. But you are discounting the value of his burial suggesting he was subject to the same decay any sinner who dies of old age is. And you follow by suggesting God limited the decay to 3 days and nights using the resurrection. But Peter and Paul said his burial did not include decay, using David's death and decay from old age as a point of comparison.
For the last time DECAY DOES NOT HAPPEN THAT QUICKLY! Is a funeral immediately after death today? No. Is that body showing any sign of decay? NO.
Only sinful flesh can decompose. Jesus was sinless. Also he was the incorruptible Word of God who became Flesh (the likeness of sinful flesh). You are robbing God of his glory to attribute the miraculous nature of his death, burial, and resurrection to the blind forces of nature.
Show me in Scripture that only sinful flesh can decompose. You won't find it. It's not there. I am not robbing God of his glory. He set aside his glory when he came to earth.
If David died of old age and his body decayed, why would Peter and Paul use this in contrast saying it was not the case with Jesus' body? But you say that it was? You are not preaching the same gospel they preached if you teach the only thing keeping Jesus body from decay was the brief time God allowed it to rot.
The contrast was that Jesus was raised from the dead and David was not. David decayed because he was never raised. Jesus body did not decay because he was raised in a short period of time.
That is not a different Gospel, that is exactly what Scripture says. You are the only one reading things into it.
The contrast is not that David will be raised from dead as Christ was. No contrast here. The contrast is in the fact that David's body decayed and Jesus' body did not.
Yes, but David was dead long enough to decay. I don't know why this is such a sticking point for you.
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:”
That passage you quote from the Bible is really is clear about what Peter actually meant. It certainly throws your theory on its head.
The gospel includes Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. But you are discounting the value of his burial suggesting he was subject to the same decay any sinner who dies of old age is. And you follow by suggesting God limited the decay to 3 days and nights using the resurrection. But Peter and Paul said his burial did not include decay, using David's death and decay from old age as a point of comparison.
You are quite the inventor!
If you think Jesus's body was subject to decay in the tomb, you preach a different gospel than Peter and Paul who both said he "didn't see decay", let alone experience.
We aren't preaching a different Gospel. You are inventing a myth. His body can have the capacity to decay yet not see decay because he rose from the dead. That fully synthesizes with what Peter and Paul both say as well as the Psalms.
@Dave_L said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” (1 Peter 1:18–19)How can Jesus' blood not be considered not among "corruptible" things, if the only thing that kept it from corruption was time? Time is what causes corruption.
You suggest God pulled his body out of the tomb before it had a chance to rot too much. But we know decay sets in at the moment of death. And Lazarus emitted a profuse odor that made resurrecting him from the tomb on the 4th day, at least questionable by those who loved him.
BODY DECOMPOSITION TIMELINE
24-72 hours after death — the internal organs decompose.3-5 days after death — the body starts to bloat and blood-containing foam leaks from the mouth and nose.
8-10 days after death — the body turns from green to red as the blood decomposes and the organs in the abdomen accumulate gas.
Several weeks after death — nails and teeth fall out.
1 month after death — the body starts to liquify.
Here is a problem with this Dave. There is a difference between decomposition and decay first of all.
Second, what happened to the blood of Christ that was spilled? The flesh that was torn from his back? Did it magically stay preserved where it lay? Can we find that tissue and that blood and say we have found a piece of Christ? No, we cannot. Why? It decomposed and decayed.
There is NOTHING in Scripture that says Christ's body did not have the capacity to decay. I want you to show me one verse that says that. You will not find it. I have asked for it several times and you point to confessions, you point to commentaries, you point to verses that have nothing to do with the question. But not once have you showed a single verse that says Jesus' body did not have the capacity of decay.
That being said, with relation to the website you posted. That is an unattended body with no embalming at all. If you attend a funeral, chances are that person has been dead for a minimum of three days. Is that body decomposing before your eyes? Is it decaying? Is there liquid coming from its mouth and nose? No. Why? It wasn't an unattended death. The body was cared for. The same was true for Christ.
Please answer my points and don't just say "But Peter says..." Because Peter does not say what you say. You need to find something else.
-
"All the trees of the field will clap their hands." What does that mean?
"And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
"Neither wilt thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption"
Oh, the sweet mysteries of the Bible! A ten-year-old could get these right, but MDiv's are utterly confused.
The conclusion: "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise"
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
Just my opinion, but if Dave wants to think that for some reason Jesus' body was not a normal human body, let him have it. My bigger concern is that he doesn't think Jesus was the Word made flesh--but that Jesus was made of some other alien substance.The difference is in the term "Corruption" also translated "decay". It is a direct result of sin. The wages of sin is death. But Peter says:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” (1 Peter 1:18–19)
Without blemish and spot which has nothing to do with whether or not his body had the capacity to decay.
Was Jesus 100% human or not? You can't have it both ways Dave.
The creeds say Jesus was fully human as far as his nature. But His Spirit was God, not human. If he was fully man and fully God he would have two persons instead of one.
Flesh is not the same as spirit. His flesh was fully human and had the capacity to decompose. He did not have to sin for cells and tissue to decompose once dead. Where you get that from I will never know.> @Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:”
That passage you quote from the Bible is really is clear about what Peter actually meant. It certainly throws your theory on its head.
The gospel includes Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. But you are discounting the value of his burial suggesting he was subject to the same decay any sinner who dies of old age is. And you follow by suggesting God limited the decay to 3 days and nights using the resurrection. But Peter and Paul said his burial did not include decay, using David's death and decay from old age as a point of comparison.
For the last time DECAY DOES NOT HAPPEN THAT QUICKLY! Is a funeral immediately after death today? No. Is that body showing any sign of decay? NO.
Only sinful flesh can decompose. Jesus was sinless. Also he was the incorruptible Word of God who became Flesh (the likeness of sinful flesh). You are robbing God of his glory to attribute the miraculous nature of his death, burial, and resurrection to the blind forces of nature.
Show me in Scripture that only sinful flesh can decompose. You won't find it. It's not there. I am not robbing God of his glory. He set aside his glory when he came to earth.
If David died of old age and his body decayed, why would Peter and Paul use this in contrast saying it was not the case with Jesus' body? But you say that it was? You are not preaching the same gospel they preached if you teach the only thing keeping Jesus body from decay was the brief time God allowed it to rot.
The contrast was that Jesus was raised from the dead and David was not. David decayed because he was never raised. Jesus body did not decay because he was raised in a short period of time.
That is not a different Gospel, that is exactly what Scripture says. You are the only one reading things into it.
The contrast is not that David will be raised from dead as Christ was. No contrast here. The contrast is in the fact that David's body decayed and Jesus' body did not.
Yes, but David was dead long enough to decay. I don't know why this is such a sticking point for you.
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:”
That passage you quote from the Bible is really is clear about what Peter actually meant. It certainly throws your theory on its head.
The gospel includes Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. But you are discounting the value of his burial suggesting he was subject to the same decay any sinner who dies of old age is. And you follow by suggesting God limited the decay to 3 days and nights using the resurrection. But Peter and Paul said his burial did not include decay, using David's death and decay from old age as a point of comparison.
You are quite the inventor!
If you think Jesus's body was subject to decay in the tomb, you preach a different gospel than Peter and Paul who both said he "didn't see decay", let alone experience.
We aren't preaching a different Gospel. You are inventing a myth. His body can have the capacity to decay yet not see decay because he rose from the dead. That fully synthesizes with what Peter and Paul both say as well as the Psalms.
@Dave_L said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” (1 Peter 1:18–19)How can Jesus' blood not be considered not among "corruptible" things, if the only thing that kept it from corruption was time? Time is what causes corruption.
You suggest God pulled his body out of the tomb before it had a chance to rot too much. But we know decay sets in at the moment of death. And Lazarus emitted a profuse odor that made resurrecting him from the tomb on the 4th day, at least questionable by those who loved him.
BODY DECOMPOSITION TIMELINE
24-72 hours after death — the internal organs decompose.3-5 days after death — the body starts to bloat and blood-containing foam leaks from the mouth and nose.
8-10 days after death — the body turns from green to red as the blood decomposes and the organs in the abdomen accumulate gas.
Several weeks after death — nails and teeth fall out.
1 month after death — the body starts to liquify.
Here is a problem with this Dave. There is a difference between decomposition and decay first of all.
Second, what happened to the blood of Christ that was spilled? The flesh that was torn from his back? Did it magically stay preserved where it lay? Can we find that tissue and that blood and say we have found a piece of Christ? No, we cannot. Why? It decomposed and decayed.
There is NOTHING in Scripture that says Christ's body did not have the capacity to decay. I want you to show me one verse that says that. You will not find it. I have asked for it several times and you point to confessions, you point to commentaries, you point to verses that have nothing to do with the question. But not once have you showed a single verse that says Jesus' body did not have the capacity of decay.
That being said, with relation to the website you posted. That is an unattended body with no embalming at all. If you attend a funeral, chances are that person has been dead for a minimum of three days. Is that body decomposing before your eyes? Is it decaying? Is there liquid coming from its mouth and nose? No. Why? It wasn't an unattended death. The body was cared for. The same was true for Christ.
Please answer my points and don't just say "But Peter says..." Because Peter does not say what you say. You need to find something else.
So your final position is: the incorruptible Word of God became corruptible flesh? And the incorruptible blood of Christ on the cross became corruptible in the tomb?
-
@GaoLu said:
"All the trees of the field will clap their hands." What does that mean?"And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
"Neither wilt thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption"
Oh, the sweet mysteries of the Bible! A ten-year-old could get these right, but MDiv's are utterly confused.
The conclusion: "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise"
I would suggest reading the above passages to see how they align with the more clear passages of scripture.
-
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
Just my opinion, but if Dave wants to think that for some reason Jesus' body was not a normal human body, let him have it. My bigger concern is that he doesn't think Jesus was the Word made flesh--but that Jesus was made of some other alien substance.The difference is in the term "Corruption" also translated "decay". It is a direct result of sin. The wages of sin is death. But Peter says:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” (1 Peter 1:18–19)
Without blemish and spot which has nothing to do with whether or not his body had the capacity to decay.
Was Jesus 100% human or not? You can't have it both ways Dave.
The creeds say Jesus was fully human as far as his nature. But His Spirit was God, not human. If he was fully man and fully God he would have two persons instead of one.
Flesh is not the same as spirit. His flesh was fully human and had the capacity to decompose. He did not have to sin for cells and tissue to decompose once dead. Where you get that from I will never know.> @Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:”
That passage you quote from the Bible is really is clear about what Peter actually meant. It certainly throws your theory on its head.
The gospel includes Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. But you are discounting the value of his burial suggesting he was subject to the same decay any sinner who dies of old age is. And you follow by suggesting God limited the decay to 3 days and nights using the resurrection. But Peter and Paul said his burial did not include decay, using David's death and decay from old age as a point of comparison.
For the last time DECAY DOES NOT HAPPEN THAT QUICKLY! Is a funeral immediately after death today? No. Is that body showing any sign of decay? NO.
Only sinful flesh can decompose. Jesus was sinless. Also he was the incorruptible Word of God who became Flesh (the likeness of sinful flesh). You are robbing God of his glory to attribute the miraculous nature of his death, burial, and resurrection to the blind forces of nature.
Show me in Scripture that only sinful flesh can decompose. You won't find it. It's not there. I am not robbing God of his glory. He set aside his glory when he came to earth.
If David died of old age and his body decayed, why would Peter and Paul use this in contrast saying it was not the case with Jesus' body? But you say that it was? You are not preaching the same gospel they preached if you teach the only thing keeping Jesus body from decay was the brief time God allowed it to rot.
The contrast was that Jesus was raised from the dead and David was not. David decayed because he was never raised. Jesus body did not decay because he was raised in a short period of time.
That is not a different Gospel, that is exactly what Scripture says. You are the only one reading things into it.
The contrast is not that David will be raised from dead as Christ was. No contrast here. The contrast is in the fact that David's body decayed and Jesus' body did not.
Yes, but David was dead long enough to decay. I don't know why this is such a sticking point for you.
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
@Dave_L said:
@GaoLu said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:”
That passage you quote from the Bible is really is clear about what Peter actually meant. It certainly throws your theory on its head.
The gospel includes Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. But you are discounting the value of his burial suggesting he was subject to the same decay any sinner who dies of old age is. And you follow by suggesting God limited the decay to 3 days and nights using the resurrection. But Peter and Paul said his burial did not include decay, using David's death and decay from old age as a point of comparison.
You are quite the inventor!
If you think Jesus's body was subject to decay in the tomb, you preach a different gospel than Peter and Paul who both said he "didn't see decay", let alone experience.
We aren't preaching a different Gospel. You are inventing a myth. His body can have the capacity to decay yet not see decay because he rose from the dead. That fully synthesizes with what Peter and Paul both say as well as the Psalms.
@Dave_L said:
“Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:” (1 Peter 1:18–19)How can Jesus' blood not be considered not among "corruptible" things, if the only thing that kept it from corruption was time? Time is what causes corruption.
You suggest God pulled his body out of the tomb before it had a chance to rot too much. But we know decay sets in at the moment of death. And Lazarus emitted a profuse odor that made resurrecting him from the tomb on the 4th day, at least questionable by those who loved him.
BODY DECOMPOSITION TIMELINE
24-72 hours after death — the internal organs decompose.3-5 days after death — the body starts to bloat and blood-containing foam leaks from the mouth and nose.
8-10 days after death — the body turns from green to red as the blood decomposes and the organs in the abdomen accumulate gas.
Several weeks after death — nails and teeth fall out.
1 month after death — the body starts to liquify.
Here is a problem with this Dave. There is a difference between decomposition and decay first of all.
Second, what happened to the blood of Christ that was spilled? The flesh that was torn from his back? Did it magically stay preserved where it lay? Can we find that tissue and that blood and say we have found a piece of Christ? No, we cannot. Why? It decomposed and decayed.
There is NOTHING in Scripture that says Christ's body did not have the capacity to decay. I want you to show me one verse that says that. You will not find it. I have asked for it several times and you point to confessions, you point to commentaries, you point to verses that have nothing to do with the question. But not once have you showed a single verse that says Jesus' body did not have the capacity of decay.
That being said, with relation to the website you posted. That is an unattended body with no embalming at all. If you attend a funeral, chances are that person has been dead for a minimum of three days. Is that body decomposing before your eyes? Is it decaying? Is there liquid coming from its mouth and nose? No. Why? It wasn't an unattended death. The body was cared for. The same was true for Christ.
Please answer my points and don't just say "But Peter says..." Because Peter does not say what you say. You need to find something else.
So your final position is: the incorruptible Word of God became corruptible flesh? And the incorruptible blood of Christ on the cross became corruptible in the tomb?
Are you going to actually address my points and provide Scripture that counters those points? Or are you just going to keep saying the same thing without any Biblical backing?
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