Florida School Shooting-- NRA Christians to Blame?
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-florida-school-shooting-20180214-story.html
'We've seen the worst of humanity,' Florida school official says as 17 killed in campus shooting.
Deadly and sad as this incident may be, we have seen this before. Prayers, hugs, grief, anger, tears, but we have done that before. Politicians talk and vow to do nothing, we have seen this before. We shake our fists bury our dead, but we have done that before. Is this our reality of today or the signs of the times to come? Is this the new normal and we're to become desensitized and keep moving on? Do the Christians have a role in addressing this matter? If not in general, what about those that are members of the NRA?
Do Christians in the USA that are members of the NRA, share in the responsibility of what happened today, as well as, all the "mass shooting" of innocent people? Why raise such questions? Think of the many practical, common-sense laws that were drafted and rejected in recent years; some didn't even see the light of day. Isn't it time for Christian NRA Members to speak up and or step out of, the organization that is unwilling to prevent the slaughter of innocents? Their membership dues support lobbyists and prevent the enactment of laws to curve this type of killing, over the past ten years. Christians everywhere stands for truth and life of all people. What happened to the American Christians? Have they become so politicized they have forgotten one of the most basic of the Ten Commandments-- "You shall not kill." In a closer translation, it says, "You shall not murder." Please, don't say these laws aren't applicable today or to all men. If you do, you have just endorsed, just another day, in the "good old USA", upholding the rights of the NRA!
Please tell me, would one be justified in saying, that the blood of the victims, in these mass shootings, is on the hands of the Christians, who are members, of NRA in the USA? Can a case be made that they are tired into these killings, not of commission, but of omission? Are we not, our brother's keeper? CM
Comments
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@C_M_ said:
Do Christians in the USA that are members of the NRA, share in the responsibility of what happened today, as well as, all the "mass shooting" of innocent people? Why raise such questions? Think of the many practical, common-sense laws that were drafted and rejected in recent years; some didn't even see the light of day. Isn't it time for Christian NRA Members to speak up and or step out of, the organization that is unwilling to prevent the slaughter of innocents? Their membership dues support lobbyists and prevent the enactment of laws to curve this type of killing, over the past ten years. Christians everywhere stands for truth and life of all people. What happened to the American Christians? Have they become so politicized they have forgotten one of the most basic of the Ten Commandments-- "You shall not kill." In a closer translation, it says, "You shall not murder." Please, don't say these laws aren't applicable today or to all men. If you do, you have just endorsed, just another day, in the "good old USA", upholding the rights of the NRA!You raise a provocative question, C.M. I think we are not nearly as responsible for the actions of organizations we join as we are for the actions of the organizations we choose not to leave.
The NRA is, contrary to popular estimation, the lobbying arm of gun manufacturers. Their opposition to tighter gun control laws is as much rooted in financial self-interest as it is in some principled opposition to the Second Amendment. If fewer guns are sold, then the companies that pay the NRA's salary earn less money...and ultimately value their partnership with NRA less than before.
From what little I have read, I think there are lots of level-headed NRA members, people who see the need for sensible gun law reform in the U.S. The problem is membership dues provide only a small fraction of the NRA's budget, which means NRA leadership bows to the gun industry's hunger to sell more weapons before they bow to the membership's sensibilities.
I can't speak as an NRA member, nor as a gun owner, or even as a Second Amendment enthusiast, but if an organization I belonged to opposed sensible gun law reform the way the NRA does, I would leave the organization.
Please tell me, would one be justified in saying, that the blood of the victims, in these mass shootings, is on the hands of the Christians, who are members, of NRA in the USA? Can a case be made that they are tired into these killings, not of commission, but of omission? Are we not, our brother's keeper? CM
I hold the gunman responsible for the killings. I hold the NRA and others resistant to any change in our management of guns responsible for contributing to the expansive vision of gun rights that has arisen in the last 20 years or so, a vision that has normalized the purchase and use of firearms FAR more dangerous and deadly than is needed by individuals in our society. As a result, modern mass shooting events produce sadness and anger, but not shock or surprise.
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If we want to save the most lives the fastest, stop abortion. If we want to stop people from killing, regardless of the weapon of choice, we have to stop teaching them the killing is entertainment and instill them with Christian values. Be assured, killing in countries without readily available guns is as common as anywhere. Most goes unreported. The numbers we see bear little resemblance if any to reality other than in a few developed countries.
I am in favor of some level of gun control, but really think that all the hoopla distracts from the real problems such as morality and abortion.
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I don't understand Christians arming themselves, much less preparing to use violence to repel violence. So it would be good to understand how Christian NRA members view their role in comparison to Christ.
A cursory reading of the OT shows people normally viewed war and violence as judgement for national sins. And peace and prosperity as rewards for righteousness. Since I believe God controls all events, good or bad, I assume America needs repentance, but this is hard to come by since so many have deluded themselves into thinking there is no supreme law giver.
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God controls all events, good or bad, I assume America needs repentance, but this is hard to come by since so many have deluded themselves into thinking there is no supreme law giver.
If God controls everything at the level you describe, then repentance and delusion would be of no consequence for America outside of what God is doing, Neither would faith or love or hate or killing. It would all be God's doing. Which is not true of course.
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The way I understand it is that God moves us according to his will in many ways. One way is prayer. If you have a burden for America as I do, He provided it. And it could be a sign God will have mercy on our nation.
Paul says to pray for all who are in authority. “correcting opponents with gentleness. Perhaps God will grant them repentance and then knowledge of the truth and they will come to their senses and escape the devil’s trap where they are held captive to do his will.” (2 Timothy 2:25–26)
Think of what it would mean to people if they knew God was behind the afflictions they suffered. And he was not just an impotent bystander that created something he could not control.
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@Bill_Coley The NRA had nothing to do with this mass shooting or any other mass shooting.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Bill_Coley The NRA had nothing to do with this mass shooting or any other mass shooting.In my previous post in this thread, David, you probably noticed that I explicitly held the gunman - NOT the NRA - responsible for the killings in this latest shootings. In said post, I reported that I hold the NRA...
@Bill_Coley said:
"...and others resistant to any change in our management of guns responsible for contributing to the expansive vision of gun rights that has arisen in the last 20 years or so, a vision that has normalized the purchase and use of firearms FAR more dangerous and deadly than is needed by individuals in our society."You may well disagree with THAT assertion, as well, but if so, at least you'll object to a conclusion I've actually come to.
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@Bill_Coley said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Bill_Coley The NRA had nothing to do with this mass shooting or any other mass shooting.In my previous post in this thread, David, you probably noticed that I explicitly held the gunman - NOT the NRA - responsible for the killings in this latest shootings. In said post, I reported that I hold the NRA...
@Bill_Coley said:
"...and others resistant to any change in our management of guns responsible for contributing to the expansive vision of gun rights that has arisen in the last 20 years or so, a vision that has normalized the purchase and use of firearms FAR more dangerous and deadly than is needed by individuals in our society."You may well disagree with THAT assertion, as well, but if so, at least you'll object to a conclusion I've actually come to.
The whole point of the 2nd Amendment was for citizens to have arms. Arms that were capable of carrying out a war. So the idea that you hold that these weapons are "more dangerous and deadly than is needed by individuals in our society" goes directly in the face of what the founders intended.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
The whole point of the 2nd Amendment was for citizens to have arms. Arms that were capable of carrying out a war. So the idea that you hold that these weapons are "more dangerous and deadly than is needed by individuals in our society" goes directly in the face of what the founders intended.You and I disagree as to the intentions of the second amendment and the nature/construction of the "well regulated militia" to which it refers.
That said, I can't see how defending one's home, person, or family, or hunting deer, ducks, or squirrels requires "arms...capable of carrying out a war." Please explain.
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@Bill_Coley said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
The whole point of the 2nd Amendment was for citizens to have arms. Arms that were capable of carrying out a war. So the idea that you hold that these weapons are "more dangerous and deadly than is needed by individuals in our society" goes directly in the face of what the founders intended.You and I disagree as to the intentions of the second amendment and the nature/construction of the "well regulated militia" to which it refers.
That said, I can't see how defending one's home, person, or family, or hunting deer, ducks, or squirrels requires "arms...capable of carrying out a war." Please explain.
Do you know what a militia was for? Hd nothing to do with defending a home or hunting. Perhaps I should send you a history book.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Bill_Coley said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
The whole point of the 2nd Amendment was for citizens to have arms. Arms that were capable of carrying out a war. So the idea that you hold that these weapons are "more dangerous and deadly than is needed by individuals in our society" goes directly in the face of what the founders intended.You and I disagree as to the intentions of the second amendment and the nature/construction of the "well regulated militia" to which it refers.
That said, I can't see how defending one's home, person, or family, or hunting deer, ducks, or squirrels requires "arms...capable of carrying out a war." Please explain.
Do you know what a militia was for? Hd nothing to do with defending a home or hunting.
That's precisely my point, David.
Perhaps I should send you a history book.
You're ever the generous one. But to help more people with your investment, send one to one of your local public schools instead.
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@Bill_Coley said:
The NRA is...the lobbying arm of gun manufacturers. Their opposition to tighter gun control laws is as much rooted in financial self-interest as it is in some principled opposition to the Second Amendment. If fewer guns are sold, then the companies that pay the NRA's salary earn less money...and ultimately value their partnership with NRA less than before.
The problem is membership dues provide only a small fraction of the NRA's budget, which means NRA leadership bows to the gun industry's hunger to sell more weapons before they bow to the membership's sensibilities.
Thanks for your response. I know you're not a spokesperson for the gun manufacturers or the NRA, but what you said is sad! Commonsense laws are denied because of USA Companies' bottom line (money). The value of a USA citizen life? Shame! I don't buy that the fees from members are small compared to the Gun manufacturers. Children are dying. Every dollar collected by the NRA is a support to this organization. All supporters are thereby, culpable.
From what little I have read, I think there are lots of level-headed NRA members, people who see the need for sensible gun law reform in the U.S.A.
"Level-headed NRA members" they may be, but their mouth are locked and their heart of compassion and sympathy appear to be cold and unconcerned for the many victims over the years.
Please tell me, would one be justified in saying, that the blood of the victims, in these mass shootings, is on the hands of the Christians, who are members, of NRA in the USA? Can a case be made that they are tired into these killings, not of commission, but of omission? Are we not, our brother's keeper?
@GaoLu said:
If we want to save the most lives the fastest, stop abortion.Come on, GaoLu, are you serious? I don't want to get off topic or to go down a rabbit hole, but are you placing a greater value upon the "unborn" over those killed by gun mass shooting? Are you comparing something with nothing or the number of people and the unborn? "Unborn" means, no birth. "un" means, NOT (e.g. 0 +0 =0; 0 x 0 = 0; etc.).How can you compare what is not, with person after birth, with a name, social security number, parents, history, vision, dream, decision-makers, in a relationship, learner, taxpayer, and a placeholder in society?
If we want to stop people from killing, regardless of the weapon of choice, we have to stop teaching them the killing is entertainment and instill them with Christian values.
With or without the research, you have a point. Christian parents should do their part to shield their children from "killing is entertainment" in television and movies.
Be assured, killing in countries without readily available guns is as common as anywhere.
Are you trying to say, what America is experiencing are "small potatoes?"
Most goes unreported. The numbers we see bear little resemblance if any to reality other than in a few developed countries.
Do you think America would be better off ignoring mass shooting?
I am in favor of some level of gun control, but really think that all the hoopla distracts from the real problems such as morality and abortion.
Are you serious, GaoLu, "all the hoopla distracts from the real problems such as morality and abortion"? is there any research to support this? If American stop abortions, this will bring an end to mass shootings? I assumed you wrote this in haste and would consider rewriting this statement. Could it be greedy gun-manufacturers, cowardly politicians, selfish and narrow-minded voters, and misguided Christians?
GaoLu, you can't legislate morality, as much as one wants to or the situation may demand it. Selfishness, greed, and narrow-mindedness are driving the train and empowering the NRA. All who support them are in enablers, directly or indirectly.
Those with mental health issues, there should be laws to make it difficult for them to get AR 15 rifles. Besides, the young man, today, doesn't appear to be mentally ill. It was planned with an escape route in mind. Pray, yes; Christians speak up. I guess the same group that gave Mr. Trump a pass on his "immoral living" will give the NRA one too, under the guise of freedom and profits. CM
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@Bill_Coley said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Bill_Coley said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
The whole point of the 2nd Amendment was for citizens to have arms. Arms that were capable of carrying out a war. So the idea that you hold that these weapons are "more dangerous and deadly than is needed by individuals in our society" goes directly in the face of what the founders intended.You and I disagree as to the intentions of the second amendment and the nature/construction of the "well regulated militia" to which it refers.
That said, I can't see how defending one's home, person, or family, or hunting deer, ducks, or squirrels requires "arms...capable of carrying out a war." Please explain.
Do you know what a militia was for? Hd nothing to do with defending a home or hunting.
That's precisely my point, David.
Perhaps I should send you a history book.
You're ever the generous one. But to help more people with your investment, send one to one of your local public schools instead.
If that is your point then how can you call for gun control? I don't think you understand what I am saying. We were meant to have weapons of war.
And I'm tired of the "common sense law" line. They aren't common sense, they don't even work.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Bill_Coley said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Bill_Coley said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
And I'm tired of the "common sense law" line. They aren't common sense, they don't even work.
Doing nothing is better sense? CM
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@GaoLu said:
It would all be God's doing.This would be the logical conclusion if one holds to 'Hard Determinism' theory or argument.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
If that is your point then how can you call for gun control? I don't think you understand what I am saying. We were meant to have weapons of war.Thank you for your insight into what I don't understand. Always appreciated, David.
So in your view, do the "weapons of war" we're "meant to have" advance as weaponry advances? Today's "weapons of war" include tanks, armored personnel carriers, cruise missiles, "bunker busters," jet fighters, machine guns, and nuclear bombs. We're we "meant to have" those "weapons of war"? If not, on what constitutional basis do you forbid people from owning them?
My view is the founders could never have imagined weaponry the likes of which is commonly available today, and hence, their provision of arms for "well regulated militia" could not have countenanced modern firepower. (Ever notice that "well regulated" adjectival phrase? Is it beyond reasonable to assume that "well regulated militia" would be armed with "well regulated" weaponry?)
And I'm tired of the "common sense law" line. They aren't common sense, they don't even work.
And I'm "tired" of our doing nothing to intervene in this societal disease, no matter how many people die when others pull triggers.
Recently, while driving, an undocumented person tragically killed two Americans, including a former NFL player. Our president jumped to his Twitter feed to protest and call for immediate action....
But today, eighteen school shootings into 2018 and who knows how many other deaths in the last twelve months, what's the president's response to seventeen deaths in a Florida high school? Thoughts, prayers, and a visit to Florida to "comfort" the families. He, too, probably thinks additional gun control isn't "common sense" and won't work. He, too, probably thinks we shouldn't "politicize" (do anything about) the shooting...at least not until the next one... which we won't "politicize" (do anything about) either.
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@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Bill_Coley said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Bill_Coley said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
And I'm tired of the "common sense law" line. They aren't common sense, they don't even work.
Doing nothing is better sense? CM
I didn't say that either. But this event could have been prevented. I have two questions.
How was he able to get in the building?
A few months ago he posted on social media he was going to shoot up a school.
This did not have to happen and you did not need more gun control to prevent it.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
And I'm tired of the "common sense law" line. They aren't common sense, they don't even work.
Doing nothing is better sense? CM
I didn't say that either. But this event could have been prevented. I have two questions.
Sorry, David. Whoever said it, the question remains.
How was he able to get in the building?
A few months ago he posted on social media he was going to shoot up a school.
Many people were asleep at the switch of responsibility. If the shooter couldn't get the gun of that size and magazine much less would have died. Let's not lose the basic facts.
This did not have to happen and you did not need more gun control to prevent it.
There is a connection of a combination of things-- self, greed, and low regard for the lives of others and their safety. American politicians aremasters at kabuki conversations. Prepare for another round, from American Law-makers, of more of the same-- A big fat "Nothing Burger" of concerns. Needs heart and backbone. CM
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Not greater, but the same. Why would they be less. God gave both lives the same way. Murder is no less murder whether it be by bullet or being ripped apart in a mother's womb.
I also want to stay on topic, but if we are concerned about stopping murder, then let's not miss the elephant by magnifying the mouse. At least, let's be honest about the matters which are quite related--both being murder problems in America.
Are you comparing something with nothing or the number of people and the unborn? "Unborn" means, no birth. "un" means, NOT (e.g. 0 +0 =0; 0 x 0 = 0; etc.).
"Unborn" has no bearing on the meaning of life. If a person is in their house or out of it, in a womb or out of it does not define their life or beingness.
How can you compare what is not, with person after birth, with a name, social security number, parents, history, vision, dream, decision-makers, in a relationship, learner, taxpayer, and a placeholder in society?
I can't fathom your argument here. A child created by God in the womb is not an "is not." Maybe this is for another thread.
Be assured, killing in countries without readily available guns is as common as anywhere.
Are you trying to say, what America is experiencing are "small potatoes?"
Of course not. I am only saying that guns are not the problem any more than big rocks or sharp sticks are. The problem is sin in people's hearts.
Do you think America would be better off ignoring mass shooting?
Certainly not. I wonder what I said that implied that?
I am in favor of some level of gun control, but really think that all the hoopla distracts from the real problems such as morality and abortion.
Are you serious, GaoLu, "all the hoopla distracts from the real problems such as morality and abortion"? is there any research to support this?
Yes. I am not aware of any research on this matter. That would be enlightening to have. Yes, I think moral problems and some specifics such as abortion are far greater, monumentally greater than random shootings. Cut off the former root and you probably eliminate most of the latter fruit.
If American stop abortions, this will bring an end to mass shootings? I assumed you wrote this in haste and would consider rewriting this statement. Could it be greedy gun-manufacturers, cowardly politicians, selfish and narrow-minded voters, and misguided Christians?
If the heart of America changes, both will end. If a tree produces wormy figs, the solution isn't to pluck off wormy figs. Nurture a healthy tree and the tree will produce good figs from all its branches.
GaoLu, you can't legislate morality, as much as one wants to or the situation may demand it. Selfishness, greed, and narrow-mindedness are driving the train and empowering the NRA. All who support them are in enablers, directly or indirectly.
I agree we cannot legislate morality. I do not know about your speculation on NRA and politics. You likely know much better than I do. I do believe that moving people toward the heart of God, so they encounter Him and accept His offer of salvation, so that they experience the change of heart and mind He offers is the only answer. I also think Christians interfacing with the Kingdoms of this world should never cease to hold up that standard and aim for that goal.
Those with mental health issues, there should be laws to make it difficult for them to get AR 15 rifles. Besides, the young man, today, doesn't appear to be mentally ill. It was planned with an escape route in mind. Pray, yes; Christians speak up. I guess the same group that gave Mr. Trump a pass on his "immoral living" will give the NRA one too, under the guise of freedom and profits. CM
Sort of off topic, but I think your evaluation may be askew for many of us. I did not vote for Trump. He gets no free pass. On the other hand, he supports Christian values better than any President in recent times. I favor the many ways he supports Christians and their values. I think that is what you may be seeing that looks like a "free pass." The NRA....I know little about.
You expressed many good thoughts. I always appreciate your posts.
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Mitch, you're right. Unfortunately, one holding this view in a quest to explain the School's shooting; 'Hard Determinism' theory or argument, it is as bad as the incident, itself.
One scholar defined determinism to be "God as an overpowering force with man as His pawn." The pages of history say, in the theology of Martin Luther (1483-1546), God wills evil. While God wills all “should be bound by His laws, He does not will that all fulfill them.” It shows an acceptance on the part of Luther of a certain divine determinism.
With a deeper look, we see examples of "determinism" and "human free will" are present in Jewish apocalyptic. For example, the Book of Jubilees (5:13; 41:24 ff.) expresses the idea of an individual's future, as being fixed in the heavenly tablets, but at the same time urges each person to choose righteousness so that condemnation may not be recorded against him or her in the heavenly annals. Psalms of Solomon 14:5 and 2 Enoch 53:2 are additional examples that express the same sentiments.
While determinism or predeterminism is defined as the expressed belief that all actions are predetermined by God, predestination refers specifically to the predetermined election or rejection of particular human beings; neither of these can be used to explain yesterday's mass school shooting. It was an act of evil. Pray for the family those loss love ones and have injured children; and the politicians, who went home early today; to do right by the people of the USA and break ranks with the NRA.--CM
SOURCE:
Berkouwer, Divine Election 25-26.
Luther’s Works, 25:162-163; 25:376 -
@GaoLu said:
I also want to stay on topic, but if we are concerned about stopping murder, then let's not miss the elephant by magnifying the mouse. At least, let's be honest about the matters which are quite related--both being murder problems in America.To my reading of it, the topic of this thread is reducing a particular kind of murder: murder by mass shooting events. That we have experienced 18 such shootings in American schools since the beginning of the year doesn't much sound like a "mouse" to me.
Of course not. I am only saying that guns are not the problem any more than big rocks or sharp sticks are. The problem is sin in people's hearts.
Had the shooter in yesterday's tragedy been armed with "rocks or sharp sticks" rather than the assault-style weapon called an AR-15, do you believe 17 people would be dead today? If you don't - and I bet you don't - then aren't guns at least PART of the problem?
Yes. I am not aware of any research on this matter. That would be enlightening to have. Yes, I think moral problems and some specifics such as abortion are far greater, monumentally greater than random shootings. Cut off the former root and you probably eliminate most of the latter fruit.
We've had 18 school shootings this year. One every three or four days, on average. How many school shootings would we have had to have by now for those shootings, in your view, to be something other than "random"?
If the heart of America changes, both will end. If a tree produces wormy figs, the solution isn't to pluck off wormy figs. Nurture a healthy tree and the tree will produce good figs from all its branches.
What do you propose we do UNTIL "the heart of America changes"?
Sort of off topic, but I think your evaluation may be askew for many of us. I did not vote for Trump. He gets no free pass. On the other hand, he supports Christian values better than any President in recent times. I favor the many ways he supports Christians and their values. I think that is what you may be seeing that looks like a "free pass." The NRA....I know little about.
I hope you smiled, even snickered, as you wrote those words about Trump's support for Christian values. Via his public statements in the last week he showed that his first instinct is to support alleged spouse abusers and remain silent on their alleged victims and the problem of spousal abuse writ large. In addition, this week Trump's personal attorney declared that shortly before the 2016 election he paid a porn star $130,000 to keep quiet about... well, whatever it was, it wasn't likely an activity supportive of Christian values.
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@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
And I'm tired of the "common sense law" line. They aren't common sense, they don't even work.
Doing nothing is better sense? CM
I didn't say that either. But this event could have been prevented. I have two questions.
Sorry, David. Whoever said it, the question remains.
How was he able to get in the building?
A few months ago he posted on social media he was going to shoot up a school.
Many people were asleep at the switch of responsibility. If the shooter couldn't get the gun of that size and magazine much less would have died. Let's not lose the basic facts.
That is irrelevant if it could have been prevented by other means. The warning signs were abundant.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
And I'm tired of the "common sense law" line. They aren't common sense, they don't even work.
Many people were asleep at the switch of responsibility. If the shooter couldn't get the gun of that size and magazine much less would have died. Let's not lose the basic facts.
That is irrelevant if it could have been prevented by other means. The warning signs were abundant.
Stating the obvious is tantamount to carrying the NRA's water.
The warning signs were abundant.
This is all the more why, the necessity for, "common sense Gun Control Laws." Even this, is a compromise to solicit the support of the NRA. CM
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Deja vu
The President has changed; yet, nothing has changed.
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-florida-shooting-20180215-story.html
In the wake of tragedy, Trump struggles to show his empathetic side. I wonder why? CM
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@Bill_Coley said:
To my reading of it, the topic of this thread is reducing a particular kind of murder: murder by mass shooting events. That we have experienced 18 such shootings in American schools since the beginning of the year doesn't much sound like a "mouse" to me.
Horrible as it is, 18 shootings this year is a mouse at best compared to well over 200,000 babies killed in America by knives over that same time.
Had the shooter in yesterday's tragedy been armed with "rocks or sharp sticks" rather than the assault-style weapon called an AR-15, do you believe 17 people would be dead today? If you don't - and I bet you don't - then aren't guns at least PART of the problem?
Very likely 17 people would be dead today AR-15 or no. No, guns are not part of the problem. People are the problem. Stack up a thousand guns in a pile with no people around and I assure you, no one will get hurt by those guns.
While it is true that an AR -15 makes mass killings easy, so do many other methods.
We've had 18 school shootings this year. One every three or four days, on average. How many school shootings would we have had to have by now for those shootings, in your view, to be something other than "random"?
I am not following your point here. Are you saying these shootings are some kind of master-planned events?
What do you propose we do UNTIL "the heart of America changes"?
If we would all get busy preaching the word, if we would all fast and pray and cry out for America to repent, the change might come far faster than legislation could ever be passed. Of course there are things many we can and should do. Doing all this the wrong way isn't the answer.
We have a choice: put a fence at the top of the cliff or an ambulance down in the valley.
Sort of off topic, but I think your evaluation may be askew for many of us. I did not vote for Trump. He gets no free pass. On the other hand, he supports Christian values better than any President in recent times. I favor the many ways he supports Christians and their values. I think that is what you may be seeing that looks like a "free pass." The NRA....I know little about.
I hope you smiled, even snickered, as you wrote those words about Trump's support for Christian values.
I did not snicker. In fact, in many ways he does, at least far more than those before him.
Via his public statements in the last week he showed that his first instinct is to support alleged spouse abusers and remain silent on their alleged victims and the problem of spousal abuse writ large.
That is the liberal media twist. I don't believe that and I honestly don't think you do either. But I could be wrong. Really, do you?
In addition, this week Trump's personal attorney declared that shortly before the 2016 election he paid a porn star $130,000 to keep quiet about... well, whatever it was, it wasn't likely an activity supportive of Christian values.
Who knows. Accusations fly. As was clear above, Christians are not saying Trump represents Christian values or that we endorse his sins. We are saying (for the umpteenth time) that he better supports Christian values than those who came before him. I really think you know what I mean and that you are arguing a point you don't really believe. Correct me if I am wrong.
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@C_M_ said:
Unfortunately, one holding this view in a quest to explain the School's shooting; 'Hard Determinism' theory or argument, it is as bad as the incident, itself.A very salient point! And, I found the rest of your post to be helpful, articulate, and thoughtful.
Trying to make sense of tragic events (and having to have to explain these events) like these make me lean more to a Compatibilist point of view or at least one that allows for individual freedom of choice and thus individual culpability.
This is a very tragic event, and one in a long list of other related incidents that seem to be part of a larger epidemic.
Whenever incidents like these occur people around me turn to me for help understanding what is happing in the U.S.A or at least an for a Western/American point of view(and something specifically for a Christian point of view). Unfortunately, theology especially of the philosophical/theoretical remains a weak spot for me. My understanding of theodicy is still a work in progress. At this time I believe that the individual worked according to a choice he made and not because he was programmed to or that there was some irresistible force controlling him to commit the crime.
Personally, I feel safer to live somewhere where there are strong gun laws. Others may feel safer to live somewhere they can and others can easily obtain guns (and that's okay). I understand and respect that there are differences of opinions and views on this issue.
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@Mitchell said:
Personally, I feel safer to live somewhere where there are strong gun laws. Others may feel safer to live somewhere they can and others can easily obtain guns (and that's okay). I understand and respect that there are differences of opinions and views on this issue.
I appreciate what you say here. Interesting how our environment and experience shapes us. I grew up around guns. I raised my family in Alaska where they were essential to safety. My teen daughter was consistently the best shot in the family with a .44 mag. Yet, where I am today, in a large city, I am rather glad for very strong gun laws.
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@Mitchell said:
@C_M_ said:
Unfortunately, one holding this view in a quest to explain the School's shooting; 'Hard Determinism' theory or argument, it is as bad as the incident, itself.A very salient point! And, I found the rest of your post to be helpful, articulate, and thoughtful.
Trying to make sense of tragic events (and having to have to explain these events) like these make me lean more to a Compatibilist point of view or at least one that allows for individual freedom of choice and thus individual culpability.
This is a very tragic event, and one in a long list of other related incidents that seem to be part of a larger epidemic.
Whenever incidents like these occur people around me turn to me for help understanding what is happing in us or at least an for a Western/American point of view(and something specifically for a Christian point of view). Unfortunately, theology especially of the philosophical/theoretical remains a weak spot for me. My understanding of theodicy is still a work in progress. At this time I believe that the individual worked according to a choice he made and not because he was programmed to or that there was some irresistible force controlling him to commit the crime.
Personally, I feel safer to live somewhere where there are strong gun laws. Others may feel safer to live somewhere they can and others can easily obtain guns (and that's okay). I understand and respect that there are differences of opinions and views on this issue.
There are many ways to look at this tragedy. But scripture shows not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God. And that he empowers all things according to his will. Even the day of everyone's death is certain.
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Indeed God is absolutely sovereign (although the point of Matthew 10:28-31in context is actually a reminder of the power God after one's physical death not about his sovereignty in general), and at the very same time, people are absolutely culpability for the decisions they make (James 1:13-15 and Romans 6:23).
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@Mitchell said:
Indeed God is absolutely sovereign (although the point of Matthew 10:28-31in context is actually a reminder of the power God after one's physical death not about his sovereignty in general), and at the very same time, people are absolutely culpability for the decisions they make (James 1:13-15 and Romans 6:23).But people always have a reason behind each choice. And the reason is beyond their control. Yet God controls all things, including the reasons people base their choices on, according to his will.
