Florida School Shooting-- NRA Christians to Blame?
Comments
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If what you argue is the case then no one other than God can be held accountable for actions and decisions. Personal culpability goes out the window for no one can resist their divine destiny or God's programming them. And, in such a paradigm God would be the author of all sin. So, instead of mourning we should then be rejoicing and praising God for these events?
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@Mitchell said:
If what you argue is the case then no one other than God can be held accountable for actions and decisions. Personal culpability goes out the window for no one can resist their divine destiny or God's programming them. And, in such a paradigm God would be the author of all sin. So, instead of mourning we should then be rejoicing and praising God for these events?Since people always do what they want for the reason God sent, they incur the guilt or blessing that results from their choice.
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@Dave_L said:
Since people always do what they want for the reason God sent, they incur the guilt or blessing that results from their choice.How can people do what they want if there is no freedom of will and thus hard determinism? And what does it mean for a reason to be sent? If God sends reason (whatever that means) then God predestining them is still totally ultimately responsible.
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People always do whatever they want most in any situation. But always for a reason. God provides the reasons people base their choices on. People can only will what they want, but they cannot will the reason that led them to choose what they wanted. Another way to say it is, people cannot will the cause that preceded their choice. The will can only react.
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@Dave_L said
People can only will what they want,What do you mean by people can 'will'? At the moment this expression sounds like someone wishing something into existence or some sort of magic ability?
@Dave_L said:
Another way to say it is, people cannot will the cause that preceded their choice.I am not sure people can 'will' anything into existence, but I believe that People can make choices or that they have freedom of choice.
@Dave_L said:
The will can only react.How can a 'will' react? People can react and People can make choices, but how can a will do so?
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@Mitchell said:
@Dave_L said
People can only will what they want,What do you mean by people can 'will'? At the moment this expression sounds like someone wishing something into existence or some sort of magic ability?
@Dave_L said:
Another way to say it is, people cannot will the cause that preceded their choice.I am not sure people can 'will' anything into existence, but I believe that People can make choices or that they have freedom of choice.
@Dave_L said:
The will can only react.How can a 'will' react? People can react and People can make choices, but how can a will do so?
People choose what they want most, or what they think is best from among their options. But God manipulates them by sending all of the reasons, internal and external, that determine their final choice. He controls them, but they always make the choice they want most.
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@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
And I'm tired of the "common sense law" line. They aren't common sense, they don't even work.
Many people were asleep at the switch of responsibility. If the shooter couldn't get the gun of that size and magazine much less would have died. Let's not lose the basic facts.
That is irrelevant if it could have been prevented by other means. The warning signs were abundant.
Stating the obvious is tantamount to carrying the NRA's water.
The warning signs were abundant.
This is all the more why, the necessity for, "common sense Gun Control Laws." Even this, is a compromise to solicit the support of the NRA. CM
No it's not a reason for necessity of gun control laws. It is precisely why there is NO need for more gun control laws. By the way, the NRA is not this evil organization liberals make it out to be. I for one support them wholeheartedly.
@C_M_ said:
Deja vu
The President has changed; yet, nothing has changed.
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-florida-shooting-20180215-story.html
In the wake of tragedy, Trump struggles to show his empathetic side. I wonder why? CM
He is not struggling to show his empathetic side. Good grief.
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@Dave_L said:
But God manipulates them by sending all of the reasons, internal and external, that determine their final choice.
In other words, people do not have freedom of choice, and God is the author of all they do Good or Evil?
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Here is a student at the school who knew the shooter and what he had to say about gun control. And NO this isn't from a conservative news outlet either so there was no bias in favor of guns.
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This is correct to a point. But people freely choose what they want according to the reasons God sends. And this involves them in either the reward or punishment that stems from their actions.
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@GaoLu said:
Horrible as it is, 18 shootings this year is a mouse at best compared to well over 200,000 babies killed in America by knives over that same time.Again, however, the topic of this thread is not abortion, but rather school shootings - in particular, this week's shooting in Florida. I respect your views on abortion, but that is simply not the issue here.
Had the shooter in yesterday's tragedy been armed with "rocks or sharp sticks" rather than the assault-style weapon called an AR-15, do you believe 17 people would be dead today? If you don't - and I bet you don't - then aren't guns at least PART of the problem?
Very likely 17 people would be dead today AR-15 or no. No, guns are not part of the problem. People are the problem. Stack up a thousand guns in a pile with no people around and I assure you, no one will get hurt by those guns.
While it is true that an AR -15 makes mass killings easy, so do many other methods.
With all due respect, there is NO reason to believe that the Florida gunman could have killed 17 (and injured another 14) had he been armed with "rocks or sharp sticks" instead of an AR-15. You don't think other students and/or faculty would have overwhelmed him early in his attack?
We've had 18 school shootings this year. One every three or four days, on average. How many school shootings would we have had to have by now for those shootings, in your view, to be something other than "random"?
In my view, school shootings aren't "random" in our society writ large because they occur so regularly any more as to be considered a characteristic, not an irregularity.
What do you propose we do UNTIL "the heart of America changes"?
If we would all get busy preaching the word, if we would all fast and pray and cry out for America to repent, the change might come far faster than legislation could ever be passed. Of course there are things many we can and should do. Doing all this the wrong way isn't the answer.
None of the actions you propose is one a legislative, executive, or other governmental body would take. So is it your view that until "the heart of America changes" there is nothing governments should do to reduce/prevent the carnage of these shootings?
I hope you smiled, even snickered, as you wrote those words about Trump's support for Christian values.
I did not snicker. In fact, in many ways he does, at least far more than those before him.
In common parlance, I think it can be said you have drank the Trumpster Kool Aid.
Via his public statements in the last week he showed that his first instinct is to support alleged spouse abusers and remain silent on their alleged victims and the problem of spousal abuse writ large.
That is the liberal media twist. I don't believe that and I honestly don't think you do either. But I could be wrong. Really, do you?
Of course I believe. Trump had a chance to express his support for his departing aid, Rob Porter, if he wanted to, AND express concern for the woman WITH THE BLACK EYE in the photo Porter acknowledged he took, AND express concern for the problem of spousal abuse, GIVEN THAT TWO OF PORTER'S EX-WIVES AND ONE OF HIS FORMER GIRLFRIENDS HAD ACCUSED HIM ON THE RECORD OF SUCH ABUSE.
In addition, this week Trump's personal attorney declared that shortly before the 2016 election he paid a porn star $130,000 to keep quiet about... well, whatever it was, it wasn't likely an activity supportive of Christian values.
Who knows. Accusations fly. As was clear above, Christians are not saying Trump represents Christian values or that we endorse his sins. We are saying (for the umpteenth time) that he better supports Christian values than those who came before him. I really think you know what I mean and that you are arguing a point you don't really believe. Correct me if I am wrong.
"Who knows"? What else do you need to know when Trump's attorney tells you that he paid $130,000 to silence a porn star who had claimed to have had a sexual liaison with his client? In your experience, are such payments more often than not expressions of goodwill, or perhaps of appreciation for contributions to society?
And lo and behold, The New Yorker is out now with confirmation from a former Playboy playmate that she wrote an eight page handwritten document summarizing her affair with Trump in 2006, an account for which The National Enquirer paid her $150,000 with the promise that she would never talk about the event. The Enquirer - VERY Trump friendly - never published a story about the alleged affair.
$150,000. $130,000. If such payments support Christian values, I'm in the wrong business!
Trump is a cancer on the office of the presidency. His conduct and character - OVER DECADES, not a few scattered events - are disgusting. His policies express a disdain for people in need in preference for people in the upper echelons of social and economic strata (look at the cuts he's proposed in his most recent budget).
A more timely example: One of the first laws he signed after his inauguration reversed an Obama-era rule that had not yet gone into effect. The rule would have made it easier to share information about people with histories of mental health issues throughout the federal gun background check system. That is, Trump decided it needed to be easier, not harder, for people with mental health issues to get guns. This week, irony or ironies, he's lamented the role of mental health issues in the Florida shooter's life. Was it supportive of Christian values for Trump to make it easier, not harder, for people with mental health issues to get guns?
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@Dave_L said:
But people freely choose what they want according to the reasons God sends.I still have no idea what you mean by reasons to be sent? One can send a letter, a postcard, a present, or their written greetings, but how can reasons be sent (I still have no idea)?
And, if God, as you claim, sends people reasons to sin(whatever that means?) can they(people) choose not to sin or are they compelled to sin by the reasons God has sent(whatever that means) them?
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@Bill_Coley said:
Again, however, the topic of this thread is not abortion, but rather school shootings - in particular, this week's shooting in Florida. I respect your views on abortion, but that is simply not the issue here.
I respectfully disagree and here is why. If a child comes for help with a splinter in her finger and promptly sits on a cactus, would you tell me that the splinter is the topic and the cactus spines are not? Shootings are the issue and abortion is directly related because the backstory is murder in America. I won't be bullied into pretending it is not.
With all due respect, there is NO reason to believe that the Florida gunman could have killed 17 (and injured another 14) had he been armed with "rocks or sharp sticks" instead of an AR-15. You don't think other students and/or faculty would have overwhelmed him early in his attack?
Thank you for your respect. I am saying you are wrong. In places I go, such things do happen without guns. We can speculate all day about what might have happened in a single case. What we know is what actually happens in other cases. I think you know that. Of course in those cases often the 17 are picked off one by one. Same result. Gun control and even rock and stick control won't prevent that. Remember Cain and Abel? The problem is not the gun, it is the heart.
[I understand the argument that a man with an AR-15 has potential to do a lot of damage in a hurry. Some gun control may be a good idea. However such people can do about as much damage to spaghetti with either a spoon or a fork, or kill with any of 100 devices.]
We've had 18 school shootings this year. One every three or four days, on average. How many school shootings would we have had to have by now for those shootings, in your view, to be something other than "random"?
In my view, school shootings aren't "random" in our society writ large because they occur so regularly any more as to be considered a characteristic, not an irregularity.
Hardly a characteristic, but recently it seems to be getting there. You have a strong point there and guns do make such events deadly.
What do you propose we do UNTIL "the heart of America changes"?
If we would all get busy preaching the word, if we would all fast and pray and cry out for America to repent, the change might come far faster than legislation could ever be passed. Of course there are things many we can and should do. Doing all this the wrong way isn't the answer.
None of the actions you propose is one a legislative, executive, or other governmental body would take.
Hmmm. Is that what you think. Then you might consider a couple samples I happened to think about:
It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship. --Mass State Consitution
And another:
ART. 22. Every person who shall be chosen a member of either house, or appointed to any office or place of trust, before taking his seat, or entering upon the execution of his office, shall take the following oath, or affirmation, if conscientiously scrupulous of taking an oath, to wit:
" I, A B. will bear true allegiance to the Delaware State...
And also make and subscribe the following declaration, to wit:
" I, A B. do profess faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore; and I do acknowledge the holy scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration."
--Art 22 from Delaware Stae consititution of 1776
Seems like history is being re-written.
So is it your view that until "the heart of America changes" there is nothing governments should do to reduce/prevent the carnage of these shootings?
I wonder what I said that would make you think I think that. Of course there are things we can and should do.
Among many things, by far the most important is for America to repent and turn her heart back to God. Mock that if you will, but it is biblical. -- 2 Chron 7:14
In common parlance, I think it can be said you have drank the Trumpster Kool Aid.
You found a perjorative way to say it. Another view is that some are Christians and read their Bible and believe it to be true.
Via his public statements in the last week he showed that his first instinct is to support alleged spouse abusers and remain silent on their alleged victims and the problem of spousal abuse writ large.
That is the liberal media twist. I don't believe that and I honestly don't think you do either. But I could be wrong. Really, do you?
Of course I believe. Trump had a chance to express his support for his departing aid, Rob Porter, if he wanted to, AND express concern for the woman WITH THE BLACK EYE in the photo Porter acknowledged he took, AND express concern for the problem of spousal abuse, GIVEN THAT TWO OF PORTER'S EX-WIVES AND ONE OF HIS FORMER GIRLFRIENDS HAD ACCUSED HIM ON THE RECORD OF SUCH ABUSE.
You have my permission to believe what you will.
Trump is a cancer on the office of the presidency. His conduct and character - OVER DECADES, not a few scattered events - are disgusting. His policies express a disdain for people in need in preference for people in the upper echelons of social and economic strata (look at the cuts he's proposed in his most recent budget).
That must look and feel awful to you. At least you understand how Christians felt about the godless reigns of the Clintons and Obama.
A more timely example: One of the first laws he signed after his inauguration reversed an Obama-era rule that had not yet gone into effect. The rule would have made it easier to share information about people with histories of mental health issues throughout the federal gun background check system. That is, Trump decided it needed to be easier, not harder, for people with mental health issues to get guns.
What Trump decided is that Americas still deserve a measure of privacy and freedom. He did not believe that giving up right to privacy was the only way to share information.
Example: The last couple weeks I worked with a case of a man with a mental breakdown in a foreign country. At first, communication growth hospitals and police and embassies seemed like a brick wall. Yet everyone in the system managed to find ways to inform how to communicate critical information. Within a couple days we had HIPAA waivers and were able to communicate what was needed freely. So Trump was right again. Christians and a lot of other Americans are liking that better all the time. Trump is not one's choice for pastor, but he is clearly God's choice for president today.
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@GaoLu said:
@Bill_Coley said:
Again, however, the topic of this thread is not abortion, but rather school shootings - in particular, this week's shooting in Florida. I respect your views on abortion, but that is simply not the issue here.I respectfully disagree and here is why. If a child comes for help with a splinter in her finger and promptly sits on a cactus, would you tell me that the splinter is the topic and the cactus spines are not? Shootings are the issue and abortion is directly related because the backstory is murder in America. I won't be bullied into pretending it is not.
I can't discern the applicability of your splinter and cactus analogy.
I suppose if "murder in America" is the "backstory," then the larger backstory still is crime in America. And as long as we're talking about crime in America, let's talk about the indictments filed on Friday against Russian operatives who operated to benefit the Trump campaign and undermine the Clinton campaign..
Doesn't makes sense, does it - my moving the discussion away from your preferred "backstory" so as to talk about my preferred "backstory"... especially when the thread in which we each raise our backstories is about school shootings, not those backstories. (And for the record, my reminding you that the topic of this thread is a school shooting is not bullying... unless you can be bullied by reminders of thread topics.)
Thank you for your respect. I am saying you are wrong. In places I go, such things do happen without guns. We can speculate all day about what might have happened in a single case. What we know is what actually happens in other cases. I think you know that. Of course in those cases often the 17 are picked off one by one. Same result. Gun control and even rock and stick control won't prevent that. Remember Cain and Abel? The problem is not the gun, it is the heart.
Seventeen are "picked off one at a time" in the same incident? Are you claiming that's happened in the U.S.?
[I understand the argument that a man with an AR-15 has potential to do a lot of damage in a hurry. Some gun control may be a good idea. However such people can do about as much damage to spaghetti with either a spoon or a fork, or kill with any of 100 devices.]
Lots of damage...in a hurry...with more freedom to perpetrate the crime until SWAT teams or other law enforcement professionals arrive. Yes. That IS a major difference between someone armed with an AR-15 and someone armed with "rocks or sharp sticks," and why there are no organized movements seeking tighter "rocks or sharp sticks" control.
In my view, school shootings aren't "random" in our society writ large because they occur so regularly any more as to be considered a characteristic, not an irregularity.
Hardly a characteristic, but recently it seems to be getting there. You have a strong point there and guns do make such events deadly.
Always appreciate common ground.
What do you propose we do UNTIL "the heart of America changes"?
None of the actions you propose is one a legislative, executive, or other governmental body would take.Hmmm. Is that what you think. Then you might consider a couple samples I happened to think about:
How would the oaths you cited lessen the possibility of people using a legally purchased AR-15 to kill and injure dozens of people?
So is it your view that until "the heart of America changes" there is nothing governments should do to reduce/prevent the carnage of these shootings?
I wonder what I said that would make you think I think that. Of course there are things we can and should do.
Among many things, by far the most important is for America to repent and turn her heart back to God. Mock that if you will, but it is biblical. -- 2 Chron 7:14To me, that sounds like a spiritual action of the masses, not a governmental action to intercede in the gun violence crisis.
In common parlance, I think it can be said you have drank the Trumpster Kool Aid.
You found a perjorative way to say it. Another view is that some are Christians and read their Bible and believe it to be true.
How does your view of the Bible's truthfulness contribute to your view of the Trump presidency? For that matter, how does your view of the Bible's truthfulness have anything at all to do with your assessment of the Trump presidency? I don't see a connection between the two.
You have my permission to believe what you will.
Your permission is unexpected. Thanks.
Trump is a cancer on the office of the presidency. His conduct and character - OVER DECADES, not a few scattered events - are disgusting. His policies express a disdain for people in need in preference for people in the upper echelons of social and economic strata (look at the cuts he's proposed in his most recent budget).
That must look and feel awful to you. At least you understand how Christians felt about the godless reigns of the Clintons and Obama.
I don't remember the reigns of any "godless" Clintons or Obamas.
A more timely example: One of the first laws he signed after his inauguration reversed an Obama-era rule that had not yet gone into effect. The rule would have made it easier to share information about people with histories of mental health issues throughout the federal gun background check system. That is, Trump decided it needed to be easier, not harder, for people with mental health issues to get guns.
Christians and a lot of other Americans are liking that better all the time. Trump is not one's choice for pastor, but he is clearly God's choice for president today.
"Not one's choice for pastor" - is that because of his serial lying? or his extra-marital flings with porn stars and Playboy bunnies?
God's choice for president today? You'll never go thirsty if you continue to drink THAT Kool Aid.
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@Mitchell said:
@Dave_L said:
But people freely choose what they want according to the reasons God sends.I still have no idea what you mean by reasons to be sent? One can send a letter, a postcard, a present, or their written greetings, but how can reasons be sent (I still have no idea)?
And, if God, as you claim, sends people reasons to sin(whatever that means?) can they(people) choose not to sin or are they compelled to sin by the reasons God has sent(whatever that means) them?
In the beginning God acted in creation. From that point on, every other movement, is a reaction. God is the only cause, everything else is the effect including secondary causes.
In the thought realm. every choice you make is a reaction to the cause preceding it.
Another way to look at it is: God opens doors and closes doors. We understand this figuratively when we follow Jesus’ words “knock and it shall be opened”. But most likely we understand it as taking place externally in the world around us.
But what about the world within? Where Jesus opens doors and closes them in our thoughts? As Paul says, “he works in us both to will and do of his good pleasure. So he will provide an open door in our thinking towards one course of action, while he closes all other doors we might have been considering.
And this helps explain the seeming puzzle of God’s sovereignty and human freedom. In the end, beginning with our thoughts, our life consists of walking through all of the open doors God places before us, within and without.
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@Bill_Coley said:
@GaoLu said:
@Bill_Coley said:
I can't discern the applicability of your splinter and cactus analogy.
Probably not.
I suppose if "murder in America" is the "backstory," then the larger backstory still is crime in America. And as long as we're talking about crime in America, let's talk about the indictments filed on Friday against Russian operatives who operated to benefit the Trump campaign and undermine the Clinton campaign..
Doesn't makes sense, does it - my moving the discussion away from your preferred "backstory" so as to talk about my preferred "backstory"... especially when the thread in which we each raise our backstories is about school shootings, not those backstories. (And for the record, my reminding you that the topic of this thread is a school shooting is not bullying... unless you can be bullied by reminders of thread topics.)
I don't have a problem with it. I am following these parts fine.
Seventeen are "picked off one at a time" in the same incident? Are you claiming that's happened in the U.S.?
Not that I know.
What do you propose we do UNTIL "the heart of America changes"?
None of the actions you propose is one a legislative, executive, or other governmental body would take.Hmmm. Is that what you think. Then you might consider a couple samples I happened to think about:
How would the oaths you cited lessen the possibility of people using a legally purchased AR-15 to kill and injure dozens of people?
You switched the target of the story by adding other information so that it no longer makes sense. I suspect you did that because you actually understood well.
So is it your view that until "the heart of America changes" there is nothing governments should do to reduce/prevent the carnage of these shootings?
I wonder what I said that would make you think I think that. Of course there are things we can and should do.
Among many things, by far the most important is for America to repent and turn her heart back to God. Mock that if you will, but it is biblical. -- 2 Chron 7:14To me, that sounds like a spiritual action of the masses, not a governmental action to intercede in the gun violence crisis.
They are not mutually exclusive at all as the above constitutional oaths reveal.
In common parlance, I think it can be said you have drank the Trumpster Kool Aid.
You found a perjorative way to say it. Another view is that some are Christians and read their Bible and believe it to be true.
How does your view of the Bible's truthfulness contribute to your view of the Trump presidency?
As I said before, Trump better supports Christian principles than recent former administrations.
For that matter, how does your view of the Bible's truthfulness have anything at all to do with your assessment of the Trump presidency?
Everything, You do not believe the Bible is true, so of course its principles mean relatively little to you. Christians, on the other hand, believe the Bible to be the Word of God and thus it guides them in every aspect of life including law and government.
I don't see a connection between the two.
That is evident.
You have my permission to believe what you will.
Your permission is unexpected. Thanks.
I may surprise you from time to time.
I don't remember the reigns of any "godless" Clintons or Obamas.
Short memory? Try avacados, beets and blueberries.
God's choice for president today? You'll never go thirsty if you continue to drink THAT Kool Aid.
You don't believe the Bible, I know, but I do. It tells us that God sets up and takes down rulers. Trump was God's choice. Hillary was not--she didn't have a chance.
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@Dave_L said:
In the beginning God acted in creation. From that point on, every other movement, is a reaction. God is the only cause, everything else is the effect including secondary causes.Thanks for sharing your definition of 'reaction' and 'secondary causes'. It is always fascinating to see the various us assumptions that lead my Christians brothers/sisters to their respective points of view.
In the thought realm. every choice you make is a reaction to the cause preceding it.
What is the thought realm? Being rational or somewhat rational creatures we always have multiple choices. When I wake up I can choose to first go brush my teeth, to first go outside for a walk, to first check my mail, to first have glass of water, to first jump up and down, to first call my family, to go back to sleep, to first read a book and so on.
Because God allowed me to wake up I have the possibility to continue to make choices, but waking up does not force me in one way or the other. Of course, our freedom of choice is limited by God-given factors like but not limited to health, physical ability, knowledge, and intellect. We, can't choose to jump out of the window of a tall building and fly, we can choose to try, but in the end, we will most likely die.
However, I remember when I was in high school the news story of an individual who attempted to commit suicide by jumping off of the 5th story of a building but only broke his arm because of instead of hitting the concert he landed on the top of a flexible car roof. I think the news reporter joked that the man had so much bad luck, but personally, after hearing this story I thought that rather than luck people have choices but God can control the outcome if he so chooses to.
As Paul says, “he works in us both to will and do of his good pleasure.
The immediate context Philippians 2:13 doesn't seem to lend it's self to the current topic on thought. And, if this verse really is speaking about this matter that would mean that rather than God 'sending us reasons' He makes, forces, or causes us to do things.
And this helps explain the seeming puzzle of God’s sovereignty and human freedom.
I hold to a view similar to that of either 'soft determinism' or 'compatibilism' as that helps me better understand and explain events like the one this thread is about to my non-Christian neighbors.
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@GaoLu said:
As I said before, Trump better supports Christian principles than recent former administrations.
This is, unfortunately, a sad truth if verified. There is an incongruency between the message and the messenger. Mr. Trump's words and behavior has become the message. Jesus didn't "get in bed" with the government of his day to advance his cause.
"No deviation from strict integrity can meet God's approval." Companies and advertisers are very careful about who represent their cause or product. Shouldn't Christians do too?
For that matter, how does your view of the Bible's truthfulness have anything at all to do with your assessment of the Trump presidency?
Everything, You do not believe the Bible is true, so of course its principles mean relatively little to you. Christians, on the other hand, believe the Bible to be the Word of God and thus it guides them in every aspect of life including law and government.
Bill, what is it about God's word you don't believe? This is the second time I am reading this about you. Is there some we need to know about your relationship with the Bible?
GaoLu, you seem to be very well acquainted with Bill's position on the Bible, your statement is very bold. CM
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@C_M_ said:
@GaoLu said:
As I said before, Trump better supports Christian principles than recent former administrations.
This is, unfortunately, a sad truth if verified. There is an incongruency between the message and the messenger. Mr. Trump's words and behavior has become the message. Jesus didn't "get in bed" with the government of his day to advance his cause.
I am evaluating the results of the administration and its leadership, not extolling the moral fiber of the man. Surely a society that moves in the direction favoring Christian values is not a sad truth.
"No deviation from strict integrity can meet God's approval." Companies and advertisers are very careful about who represent their cause or product. Shouldn't Christians do too?
Surely few Christians propose that Trump somehow represents their cause. Have you heard anyone imply such a thing? (I am sure there are some). We have one head, Jesus Christ.
For that matter, how does your view of the Bible's truthfulness have anything at all to do with your assessment of the Trump presidency?
Everything, You do not believe the Bible is true, so of course its principles mean relatively little to you. Christians, on the other hand, believe the Bible to be the Word of God and thus it guides them in every aspect of life including law and government.
Bill, what is it about God's word you don't believe? This is the second time I am reading this about you. Is there some we need to know about your relationship with the Bible?
GaoLu, you seem to be very well acquainted with Bill's position on the Bible, your statement is very bold. CM
Bill and I have known each other for years. He is not bashful about stating his position. I think he will readily do so here for you.
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@Mitchell said:
And this helps explain the seeming puzzle of God’s sovereignty and human freedom.
I hold to a view similar to that of either 'soft determinism' or 'compatibilism' as that helps me better understand and explain events like the one this thread is about to my non-Christian neighbors.
When terms are used I am always curious about who's behind it or started it. I guess it's a bad habit. It helps me to better grasp the concept. In looking back, it's Calvin and Arminius, the recognized founding fathers of compatibilism and non-compatibilism. Behind all this is the unpardonable sin as it is described in the synoptic texts (Matt 12:31, 32; Mark 3:28-30; and Luke 12:10).
For John Calvin (1509-1564) the sin against the Holy Spirit is understood within
the context of divine determinism, compatibilism, and monergism. Evans said _ “Genuine freedom requires an individual to have more than one possibility that is actually possible at the time of choosing, not merely possibilities that would be open if certain facts that do not obtain were to obtain.” _[C. Stephen Evans, Pocket Dictionary of Apologetics (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2002), 26].
Supporters of these views: John Calvin, Abraham Kuyper, Herman Bavinck, and Gerrit Cornelis Berkouwer (1903-1996) is a Dutch Reformed theologian who “emphasized the reformation starting points of sola fide and sola Scriptura.”While James Arminius understands the unpardonable sin within the concept of freedom of the human will, non-compatibilism, and synergism [James Arminius, The Writings of James Arminius, 3 vols., trans. James Nichols and William Nichols (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 1996), 2:531-532.]
Supporters of these views: John Wesley, Adam Clark, and Albert Barnes. He was the editor and primary author of Barnes’ Notes on the Old and New Testaments.
Compatibilists credit God with the election, yet absolve Him from reprobation. If the individual has no role to play, if there is no place for synergism, it opens divine justice to question, for human destiny is then God’s decision—and the responsibility is not man’s—that determines his eternal fate.
According to compatibilists, Christ died for the elect in a different sense than He died for the non-elect. Even though God loves all and wishes to save all, He doesn’t make His salvation available to all. His love compels Him to invite all to believe and repent, but He doesn’t give the reprobate the ability to respond appropriately.
Compatibilists claim that divine sovereignty either elects individuals to salvation or inevitably consigns them to damnation without the involvement of human response, non-compatibilism claims that divine love requires both human choices along with a behavioral response.
In “compatibilism,” freedom does not entail the ability to do otherwise (libertarianism) but rather means freedom from external compulsion. Therefore, everything ultimately happens according to the eternal divine decree. The compatibilist believe that freedom is not removed but humans act in accordance with their own volitions.
C. F. H. Henry said, “God’s foreknowledge does not involve determination that cancels voluntary action, but God knows what man will voluntarily choose.”
“Voluntary action does not, however, depend upon intellectual doubt or divine ignorance, or upon arbitrary subjective power to reverse our each and every decision and deed. It depends rather upon voluntary choice. If humans voluntarily choose to do what God foreknows to be certain, then the conditions of voluntary human agency are fulfilled” (C. F. H. Henry, God, Revelation, 5:282).
Compatibilists argue that there are two categories of human beings: the elect and
the reprobate.Non-compatibilists see all human beings as being essentially on the same ground spiritually at birth; it is the choices they make that eventually divide them into one or the other of those two categories.
For non-compatibilists, both salvation and damnation are conditional upon the individual’s response to divine grace. They see God as, through the Holy Spirit, appealing to the individual’s understanding, will, judgment, and conscience.
For a deeper look for better understanding; not for endorsement:
-- If interested in a contemporary presentation of compatibilism see Millard J. Erickson, What Does God Know and When Does He Know It? (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Zondervan, 2003).
-- For a view for divine foreknowledge but against compatibilism see William Lane Craig, Divine Foreknowledge and Human Freedom: The Coherence of Freedom (New York: Leiden, 1991).
-- William Lane Craig, “Hasker on Divine Knowledge,” Philosophical Studies 67 (1992): 52–78.
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@C_M_ said:
When terms are used I am always curious about who's behind it or started it. I guess it's a bad habit. It helps me to better grasp the concept. In looking back, it's Calvin and Arminius, the recognized founding fathers of compatibilism and non-compatibilism.Really, did they actually use these terms? Just to let you know I have not spent any time reading Calvin nor Arminius but I am curious what leads you to this understanding.
Theological Determinism comes in two flavors:
(a) Hard Determinism
(b) **Soft Determinism **(Compatibilism)opposite point of view is:
indeterminism and/or libertarianismI reject indeterminism and find myself somewhere between Hard Determinism and Soft Determinism(Compatibilism) but closer to the later than the former. Both, the testimony of Scripture and the incidents like the one that started this thread lead me in that direction.
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@C_M_ said:
Bill, what is it about God's word you don't believe? This is the second time I am reading this about you. Is there some we need to know about your relationship with the Bible?As I have posted directly to him C.M. Gao Lu posts false and profoundly misleading summaries of my attitude toward the Bible. It's not clear to me why he continues to post deeply misleading and impossibly simplistic umbrella summaries such as that I "don't believe the Bible is true," even though I have made clear my objections to them in responding posts.
Gao Lu posts that he and I have "known each other for years." Obviously, we have not known each other long enough for him to have correctly understood my view of the Bible.
As for my view of the Bible, here is what I posted on p.12 of the "Is Jesus Deity" thread...
"In rough, on-the-spot, and condensed form, my view of the Bible is that it is the inspired word of God, written and compiled by human beings who were moved, guided, and inspired by the Holy Spirit. Through the writings of the Bible, God spoke to both their original audiences and audiences throughout time since.
"Due to human involvement in the creation of the writings of the Bible, there are errors and mistakes. Some are copyist errors. Some are errors rooted in different source mateiral. Some are errors created by cultural influence. Therefore, the truth of the Bible often cannot be discerned from a single verse or passage, but rather from an engagement with the whole of Scripture (e.g. as to the divinity of Jesus). The presence of errors, in my view, does NOT mean that the Bible is not inspired; it rather means there were humans involved in its creation. The errors also do NOT invalidate 2 Timothy 3.16.
If you want to start a new thread, we can discuss the Bible's inspiration. Such a discussion seems out of place in this thread, which is nominally about the NRA's role in a school shooting tragedy.
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I do not know much about the NRA, but I do not see how Christians, in general, are to blame for the tragic incident that occurred in Florida. I do however get asked a lot about why there aren't stronger gun control regulations in the USA and why it appears that after so many tragic incidences like these new laws or precautions are put into place. Honestly, I do not know?
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- I concur Mr. Trump is not, or has not, professed to be a Pastor, a Priest, or a Pope; Just President of the USA and a starched supporter of the NRA.
- Are all Christians united in the USA on the "moves in the direction favoring Christian" that you say Mr. Trump is going?
- Do all Christians agree with the Trump "administration and its leadership" on the latest tax cuts; what he is doing with the families on DOCA; and the proposed budget to cut "welfare" funds to the needy? If your answer is yes; are there any Christian Democrats in the USA?
"No deviation from strict integrity can meet God's approval." Companies and advertisers are very careful about who represent their cause or product. Shouldn't Christians do too?
Surely few Christians propose that Trump somehow represents their cause. Have you heard anyone imply such a thing? (I am sure there are some). We have one head, Jesus Christ.
Upon second thoughts, who am I to say, whom God should or can use to accomplish His end? If God can use an old donkey to speak to Saul (Paul) on the Damascus Road; I guess, he can use Mr. Trump in all his "baggage." "God can bless any mess, but He doesn't need mess, to bless." CM
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@Bill_Coley said:
If you want to start a new thread, we can discuss the Bible's inspiration. Such a discussion seems out of place in this thread, which is nominally about the NRA's role in a school shooting tragedy.
You have correctly discerned. CM
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@C_M_ said:
If God can use an old donkey to speak to Saul (Paul) on the Damascus Road; I guess, he can use Mr. Trump in all his "baggage." "God can bless any mess, but He doesn't need mess, to bless." CMYou have a way with wit! I found the imagery and wordplay (or pun) to be humorous.
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Upon second thoughts, who am I to say, whom God should or can use to accomplish His end? If God can use an old donkey to speak to Saul (Paul) on the Damascus Road; I guess, he can use Mr. Trump in all his "baggage." "God can bless any mess, but He doesn't need mess, to bless." CM
Where is the like button?
With all due respect, there is NO reason to believe that the Florida gunman could have killed 17 (and injured another 14) had he been armed with "rocks or sharp sticks" instead of an AR-15. You don't think other students and/or faculty would have overwhelmed him early in his attack?
Did I forget to answer that? Oops. Here: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/33-dead-130-injured-china-knife-wielding-spree-n41966
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@GaoLu said:
Upon second thoughts, who am I to say, whom God should or can use to accomplish His end? If God can use an old donkey to speak to Saul (Paul) on the Damascus Road; I guess, he can use Mr. Trump in all his "baggage." "God can bless any mess, but He doesn't need mess, to bless." CM
Where is the like button?
With all due respect, there is NO reason to believe that the Florida gunman could have killed 17 (and injured another 14) had he been armed with "rocks or sharp sticks" instead of an AR-15. You don't think other students and/or faculty would have overwhelmed him early in his attack?
Did I forget to answer that? Oops. Here: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/33-dead-130-injured-china-knife-wielding-spree-n41966
GaoLu, be accurate in your sharing. Listen to your own video clip. There were ten (10) people with long swords. The long knife caused strife and loss of life = Evil. CM
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@Mitchell said:
In the thought realm. every choice you make is a reaction to the cause preceding it.
What is the thought realm? Being rational or somewhat rational creatures we always have multiple choices. When I wake up I can choose to first go brush my teeth, to first go outside for a walk, to first check my mail, to first have glass of water, to first jump up and down, to first call my family, to go back to sleep, to first read a book and so on.
>> All of these choices are reactions to preexisting conditions...
Because God allowed me to wake up I have the possibility to continue to make choices, but waking up does not force me in one way or the other. Of course, our freedom of choice is limited by God-given factors like but not limited to health, physical ability, knowledge, and intellect. We, can't choose to jump out of the window of a tall building and fly, we can choose to try, but in the end, we will most likely die.
>> But God provides the energy behind every movement. Can he blindly underwrite and cause something to happen he did not plan?
However, I remember when I was in high school the news story of an individual who attempted to commit suicide by jumping off of the 5th story of a building but only broke his arm because of instead of hitting the concert he landed on the top of a flexible car roof. I think the news reporter joked that the man had so much bad luck, but personally, after hearing this story I thought that rather than luck people have choices but God can control the outcome if he so chooses to.
>> How can God work all things after the counsel of his own will and allocate somethings to the will of another?
As Paul says, “he works in us both to will and do of his good pleasure.
The immediate context Philippians 2:13 doesn't seem to lend it's self to the current topic on thought. And, if this verse really is speaking about this matter that would mean that rather than God 'sending us reasons' He makes, forces, or causes us to do things.
>> God empowers everyone to make choices according to their nature. “A person plans his course, but the LORD directs his steps.” (Proverbs 16:9)
And this helps explain the seeming puzzle of God’s sovereignty and human freedom.
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@Dave_L said:
All of these choices are reactions to preexisting conditions..._I already said that so we agree on that point
.But God provides the energy behind every movement. Can he blindly underwrite and cause something to happen he did not plan?_
Not, sure what you are referring to here and how it relates to what I wrote or in what way the above is a response to what I wrote.
How can God work all things after the counsel of his own will and allocate somethings to the will of another?_
Again, Dave, I am not sure what you are talking about. This does not seem to relate to what I wrote.
God empowers everyone to make choices according to their nature. “
By their nature, you mean their personality?
