Florida School Shooting-- NRA Christians to Blame?
Comments
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@Mitchell said:
BK, you need to "show previous quotes" to see my reply.
@Dave_L said:
All of these choices are reactions to preexisting conditions..._I already said that so we agree on that point
.But God provides the energy behind every movement. Can he blindly underwrite and cause something to happen he did not plan?_
Not, sure what you are referring to here and how it relates to what I wrote or in what way the above is a response to what I wrote.
It goes back to what I said originally. Every choice we make has a reason or a cause leading up to it. We merely react to the forces within and surrounding us all of which are under God's design and control. God is the only one who acts, everything he created reacts.
How can God work all things after the counsel of his own will and allocate somethings to the will of another?_Again, Dave, I am not sure what you are talking about. This does not seem to relate to what I wrote.
You mentioned something like God can step in and prevent or observe any given situation and let it lay. As if he is a mere spectator and the universe finds its energy in a source other than him. But this does not square with scripture who says God created all, including our choices.
God empowers everyone to make choices according to their nature. “By their nature, you mean their personality?
Yes. God energizes everyone and everything. But people are sinful by nature so they use his energy for sinful purposes, but only according to his plan for them. He gives those in Christ a new nature, so they use his energy for good ends, according to his predetermined plan.
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@GaoLu said:
@Bill_ColeyWith all due respect, there is NO reason to believe that the Florida gunman could have killed 17 (and injured another 14) had he been armed with "rocks or sharp sticks" instead of an AR-15. You don't think other students and/or faculty would have overwhelmed him early in his attack?
Did I forget to answer that? Oops. Here: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/33-dead-130-injured-china-knife-wielding-spree-n41966
I asked you whether the Florida gunman could have killed 17 and injured another 14 had he been armed with "rocks or sharp sticks," the weapons to which you had referred in a previous post. In an apparent attempt to demonstrate that the gunman COULD have perpetrated such horror, you link to a four year old story about a group of five, likely trained, terrorists - not one 19 yr old - armed with knives - not "rocks and sharp sticks" - who between them, killed 29 people and injured 130.
Five terrorists killed about six people each. Horrific. But they didn't kill seventeen people each, like the former high school student did with his AR-15.
And over the four years since the Chinese terrorist attack, the six deadliest mass shooting incidents in the United States have taken 179 lives, or an average of about 30 per incident.
That I can find six incidents to your one over the last four years is one thing (and those are just the six most deadly ones). That in those six incidents, the average gunman killed five times as many people per incident as in the Chinese tragedy proves my point.
The other way to prove my point is to ask you to find a second incident, one in which the perpetrator killed a double-digit number of people with knives or rocks or sharp sticks.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
No it's not a reason for necessity of gun control laws. It is precisely why there is NO need for more gun control laws. By the way, the NRA is not this evil organization liberals make it out to be. I for one support them wholeheartedly.
David-- an appeal to the preacher,
I'm surprised as a parent, Pastor, and anti-abortionist, you would support such group (NRA). So, this recent school shooting is just another day in America with guns? I assume you own a gun (you don't have to say one way or the other) in your home? If you do, what are you protecting? You don't trust God to take care of you and your family? Are you concern about this weapon in your home with a little one there? What do you teach your members? Do you carry a gun (openly or concealed)? Do you have one in your church? How many armed guards do you have in your church? When will you take a life? If you are so worked up over the "unborn" (is not), how do you justify taking the life of the truly grown and born? Are you sure you don't need to stop and think anew, your attitude, status, position as a person and your support of the NRA? Have you forgotten:
“Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.” -- Psalms 20:7
“For I will not trust in my bow, neither shall my sword save me.”-- Psalms 44:6
As a conservative, Born-again, baptized, blood-washed, blood-bought, Holy Ghost -filled, Republican, gun-owner, Trump-loving, "Bible-thumping", proud card-carrying member and supporter of NRA; why do you need them? What is this organization about? What can they give you God can't provide? Do you pray with the intruder before you shoot him, or afterward? Don't you think you would be a better witness to everyone without a gun? If you don't have a gun, why would you encourage others to carry or have one and be a member of the NRA? Then said Jesus unto him, "Put up..thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Matthew 26:52).
When an intruder comes to harm you or your family, remember:
"No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD" (Isaiah 54:17 ).
“In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.” Psalms 56:4
“It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.” -- Psalms 118:8
Recommit yourself to the Lord's Army--Jesus, prayer, faith, Bible studies, and trust in Divine Power. “In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.”-- Psalms 56:4
Sing this song with family and members each night:
1.
Be not dismayed whate’er betide,
God will take care of you!
Beneath His wings of love abide,
God will take care of you!
God will take care of you,
Through every day o’er all the way;
He will take care of you;
God will take care of you!
2
Through days of toil when heart doth fail,
God will take care of you!
When dangers fierce your path assail,
God will take care of you!
3
All you may need He will provide,
God will take care of you!
Trust Him, and you will be satisfied,
God will take care of you!
4
Lonely and sad, from friends apart,
God will take care of you!
He will give peace to your aching heart,
God will take care of you!
5
No matter what may be the test,
God will take care of you!
Lean, weary one, upon His breast,
God will take care of you!Be at peace with all men. " God will take care of you!" ...CM
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@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
No it's not a reason for necessity of gun control laws. It is precisely why there is NO need for more gun control laws. By the way, the NRA is not this evil organization liberals make it out to be. I for one support them wholeheartedly.David-- an appeal to the preacher,
I'm surprised as a parent, Pastor, and anti-abortionist, you would support such group (NRA). So, this recent school shooting is just another day in America with guns? ...
I am surprised how many here join in into the "we need stricter gun control laws" and "this terrible evil NRA organization..." as if those point were the cause for this recent Florida shooting or other recent shootings.
Some questions:
Were there such frequent mass shootings (in particular in schools) in the 1940ies, 1950ies, etc?
Were there stricter gun control laws in those decades?
Was the NRA non-existent then?It seems to me as clear as day that there must be reasons for the increase in mass shootings in more recent decades which have nothing whatever to do with gun control laws or the NRA ...
Why is nobody addressing the issues which are the reasons for programming and brain washing many or most of the US society to forsake moral values, forsake common sense, forsake decency, forsake the desire for peaceful living, etc ???
The empire is reaching a state of utter decadence ... hypocrisy and greed are reaching new heights. And the ones pulling the strings behind the scenes are having a hay day seeing how their plans are working rather effectively.
It's a joke that the US public for the most part gets terribly upset when a woman's bare nipple is seen on TV for 3 seconds .... and those same folks sit in front of the TV enjoying 3 criminal soap shows in a row with 4 murders plus many minutes of shootouts and violence of most severe grade where the blood almost comes flowing out from the TV screen.
And more, and more, and more ....
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@Bill_Coley said:
@GaoLu said:
Did I forget to answer that? Oops. Here: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/33-dead-130-injured-china-knife-wielding-spree-n41966I asked you whether the Florida gunman could have killed 17 and injured another 14 had he been armed with "rocks or sharp sticks," the weapons to which you had referred in a previous post. In an apparent attempt to demonstrate that the gunman COULD have perpetrated such horror, you link to a four year old story about a group of five, likely trained, terrorists - not one 19 yr old - armed with knives - not "rocks and sharp sticks" - who between them, killed 29 people and injured 130.
Right. I answered the first question above elsewhere as you know (and then you pretend you didn't).
I alluded to your question with this rather amazing recent proof that you are wrong in your underlying premise regarding the OP. Read the statement that you wrote it. Did it sink in at all?
Five terrorists killed about six people each. Horrific. But they didn't kill seventeen people each, like the former high school student did with his AR-15.
Bombs can do even better and sometimes do. I would not say that fact that an AR-15 can kill a lot of people is irrelevant to the conversation but tertiary at best. It isn't the problem, plain and simple.
That I can find six incidents to your one over the last four years is one thing (and those are just the six most deadly ones). That in those six incidents, the average gunman killed five times as many people per incident as in the Chinese tragedy proves my point.
You just don't know. Vastly more have happened. If you really want to know, research just a teensy bit more. I am not going to enter an argument about that here
The other way to prove my point is to ask you to find a second incident, one in which the perpetrator killed a double-digit number of people with knives or rocks or sharp sticks.
Isolating exact details of a specific case from context is a red herring--Bill's fashion statement. The case I gave is relevant. I could readily give you dozens of cases much like you describe, though I think you can find them yourself. Obviously, such events are not promoted by pop liberal news media. It contradicts their politics. So research means you have to google a second or third time to do research. I have to leave off this specific topic now, but I trust readers will know what I am talking about.
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@GaoLu said:
I alluded to your question with this rather amazing recent proof that you are wrong in your underlying premise regarding the OP. Read the statement that you wrote it. Did it sink in at all?But your "rather amazing recent proof" 1) isn't of the size or scope of mass shootings such as the recent one in Florida (it's about 1/5 the size and scope, as I noted), and 2) does not reflect a pattern in American society that has produced any national outcry... because mass-knifings are not a problem in the U.S. You found one four year old example IN CHINA. Where's your U.S. example(s)?
Here's a challenge you won't take on: In the U.S. in the last five years, how many people have died in mass knifing incidents? Mass shooting incidents are commonly defined as incidents in which four or more people die, so let's use that as the definition. How many have died in mass knifings in the U.S. in the last five years? Then we'll compare that number to the number who have died in mass shooting incidents in the same time frame. If you're right - that the weapon is not the issue - then those two numbers ought to be reasonably similar.
Bombs can do even better and sometimes do. I would not say that fact that an AR-15 can kill a lot of people is irrelevant to the conversation but tertiary at best. It isn't the problem, plain and simple.
And how many have died in mass bombing incidents in the U.S. over the last five years? Again, we'll compare numbers.
Knives. Bombs. Sarin gas. Rabid alligators. ICBMs. Cracks in the earth's surface that swallow entire school buildings. ALL of those COULD do "better" than AR-15s or other weaponry, BUT THEY DONT! The numbers don't lie. America does not have a mass knifing or bombing problem. America has a mass shooting problem. Killers use guns because they are readily available and more effective any other means of death.
And by the way, I'm guessing that the students who could have run from a knife-wielding killer but couldn't run from the ammunition from the AR-15 that killed them would disagree with your assertion that "the fact that an AR-15 can kill a lot of people" is "tertiary at best," and "isn't the problem." I bet their families and friends would disagree with your point as well.
You just don't know. Vastly more have happened. If you really want to know, research just a teensy bit more. I am not going to enter an argument about that here
The truth is you won't enter the argument - about what's happening in AMERICA - because the facts don't support your view. FAR MORE people die in mass shootings than in mass knifings or mass bombings, because guns are Americans' weapon of choice.
Isolating exact details of a specific case from context is a red herring--Bill's fashion statement. The case I gave is relevant. I could readily give you dozens of cases much like you describe, though I think you can find them yourself. Obviously, such events are not promoted by pop liberal news media. It contradicts their politics. So research means you have to google a second or third time to do research. I have to leave off this specific topic now, but I trust readers will know what I am talking about.
The red herrings, Gao Lu, are the knife attacks and bomb scares you raise as if they compare in both threat and reality to the effects of mass shootings, when they don't... at all... at least not in the United States. The numbers don't lie.
Initially I challenged you to find a second incident in which a lone knife-wielding assailant killed a double-digit number of people in a single incident. You declined the challenge. But that challenge was a FAR easier task than the one I should have requested from you: identifying such an incident in the U.S.
We're entitled to our own opinions, but not our own facts. You have yet to produce facts to demonstrate that knives or bombs or any other weapons cause death at rates comparable to guns. You've tossed out shiny objects to distract attention to reality of guns in the U.S. But no facts.
We will welcome your citation of facts to buttress your point.
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@Bill_Coley :
You have offered your best arguments. Thanks. -
@Bill_Coley said:
Here's a challenge you won't take on: In the U.S. in the last five years, how many people have died in mass knifing incidents? Mass shooting incidents are commonly defined as incidents in which four or more people die, so let's use that as the definition. How many have died in mass knifings in the U.S. in the last five years? Then we'll compare that number to the number who have died in mass shooting incidents in the same time frame. If you're right - that the weapon is not the issue - then those two numbers ought to be reasonably similar.Seems to me that I already took on this challenge, albeit from a slightly different perspective, in my recent post ....
Why were there far less mass shooting incidents in the United States in earlier decades, for example prior to the 1970ies? Were the gun control laws at that time more severe? If the same gun control laws were in effect then, quite obviously then, that the cause for the higher number of mass shootings in recent decades in the United States has nothing to do with gun control laws but with something else?
How is a problem solved? by adjusting measures to deal with symptoms and outcomes? or by eliminating the cause of the problem?
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Good point Wolfgang. I realized above that I was pondering Cause while Bill was arguing by Correlation. It isn't the same argument and couldn't go anywhere that way. You made that clear.
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@Wolfgang said:
Seems to me that I already took on this challenge, albeit from a slightly different perspective, in my recent post ....Wolfgang, the challenge I offered asked how many people in the U.S. had died in mass knifing incidents, so I don't agree with your contention that your previous post took on that challenge "from a slightly different perspective." More accurately, it seems to me, your response addressed a very different issue.
Why were there far less mass shooting incidents in the United States in earlier decades, for example prior to the 1970ies? Were the gun control laws at that time more severe? If the same gun control laws were in effect then, quite obviously then, that the cause for the higher number of mass shootings in recent decades in the United States has nothing to do with gun control laws but with something else?
From a brief online search, I conclude there are multiple factors that explain America's problem with mass shootings, among which is the per capita gun ownership rate. According to a 2012 Congressional Research Service study, that rate effectively doubled between 1968 and 2012, from approximately one gun per every two persons in '68, to one gun per every one person in '12 (remedial statistics reminder: A per capita rate is an AVERAGE! It does NOT mean every person in America has a gun! Lots of people have more than one gun... which produces the average)
In August 2015, the LA Times summarized sociologist Adam Lankford's presentation of the role of gun ownership in mass shootings this way...
"But the association between national firearm ownership rates and number of mass shooters per country showed clear statistical significance, he found. Behind the United States' top spot, Finland and Switzerland rank third and fourth, respectively, in per-capita gun ownership. While both countries enjoy vaunted reputations as safe places to live, both (along with No. 2 Yemen and No. 5 Serbia) ranked in the top 15 countries internationally for mass shooters per capita."
There ARE other factors that contribute to mass shootings, and solutions to the problem must therefore be multi-dimensional! But the proliferation of guns in the nation is among those factors.
How is a problem solved? by adjusting measures to deal with symptoms and outcomes? or by eliminating the cause of the problem?
One way to affect the problem - no ONE step is going to solve it! - is to reduce the proliferation of guns.
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@GaoLu said:
@Bill_Coley :
You have offered your best arguments. Thanks.Your approach to debate here assures that you will leave the conversation convinced of the truth of your claims because when you're challenged to backup your claims, you simply bow out by thanking the other person for his or her "best arguments."
Well played, Gao Lu, but let's be clear: You made claims. I asked you to back them up. You didn't back them. That's not a matter of "best arguments." That's a matter of supporting evidence...or lack thereof.
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@Bill_Coley
Hi Bill. I backed my claims well. Yes, I debate on my terms, not yours. I am often not interested in your kind of argument which is largely game-playing with wits, word-games and politics and goes nowhere. I am sure you are able to respect that. Maybe you can find another fun partner for that.If you ever want to talk from a Biblical perspective, I am all in. At this point you admit you do not believe the Bible to be true (though you sometimes waffle all over the topic). Not much of interest for me to engage there for long.
On the other hand, I do like your interest in photography and you have informed interesting insights on liberal politics, criticism of all things Christian, and life in general. You are an interesting, engaging person and have offered some good thoughts. Thanks for those.
Here is one school that likely won't have a shooting problem:
https://www.onenewsnow.com/education/2018/02/19/armed-staff-makes-w-texas-students-feel-safePost edited by GaoLu on -
@GaoLu said:
@Bill_Coley
Hi Bill. I backed my claims well. Yes, I debate on my terms, not yours. I am often not interested in your kind of argument which is largely game-playing with wits, word-games and politics and goes nowhere. I am sure you are able to respect that. Maybe you can find another fun partner for that.My "kind of argument" is grounded in provable assertions of fact. I don't need to prove the truth of my conclusions about matters. But I do need to prove the facts upon which I base those conclusions. I hold the people who "argue" with me to the same standard.
In our exchange, you claimed that the fact that "an AR-15 kills a lot of people" is "tertiary, at best" to the needed conversation, and "isn't the problem, plain and simple." In defense of your claim, you suggested that "big rocks and sharp sticks," knives, and bombs could be just as deadly. In fact, you posted, "guns are not the problem any more than big rocks or sharp sticks are."
In support of your claim, you cited a four year old example from China in which five terrorists killed 29 and injured more than 100. Since at issue are mass murders in the U.S. not China, I asked you for examples of mass knifings (or "stick-ings" or "rock-ings") my point being that in the US, we don't have a mass knifing or stick-ing problem. We have a mass shooting problem.
That's when you thanked me for my best arguments.
MY "kind of argument" is that if you contend knifes and sticks are as much the problem as are guns, then show us the data that prove you're right. You have yet to do so... primarily, in my view, because you can't do so.
No "games," word- or otherwise. No politics. Not even much wit. Just simple requests for facts... which you haven't granted.
If you ever want to talk from a Biblical perspective, I am all in. At this point you admit you do not believe the Bible to be true (though you sometimes waffle all over the topic). Not much of interest for me to engage there for long.
The issue in this thread is the Florida school shooting. The issue in our exchange has been the comparative threat posed in America by AR-15s and "big rocks and sharp sticks." I invite you to initiate the thread(s) of your choice regarding the Bible's counsel on issues of American society's violence. I would gladly contribute.
As I have made clear to you in several other posts, your claim that I "do not believe the Bible to be true" is destructively simplistic, profoundly misleading, and in the end, just plain false. My inclination is to assume that you, as a follower of Jesus, would not continue to repeat simplistic and misleading characterizations of others once alerted to their objections about them. That my objections have had no impact on you - save for your introduction of a "waffle all over the topic" phrase - is disturbing.
You're bearing false witness against me, Gao Lu. Stop it.
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@GaoLu said:
Here is one school that likely won't have a shooting problem:
https://www.onenewsnow.com/education/2018/02/19/armed-staff-makes-w-texas-students-feel-safeI've been thinking about teachers I know of being armed. And I don't think it is a good move. That is, to use any teacher, already worn to a frazzle, in the place of unbiased trained law enforcement. They need to put trained cops in and add the expense to the tax codes.
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You raise a good point.
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@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
No it's not a reason for necessity of gun control laws. It is precisely why there is NO need for more gun control laws. By the way, the NRA is not this evil organization liberals make it out to be. I for one support them wholeheartedly.
David-- an appeal to the preacher,
I'm surprised as a parent, Pastor, and anti-abortionist, you would support such group (NRA). So, this recent school shooting is just another day in America with guns? I assume you own a gun (you don't have to say one way or the other) in your home? If you do, what are you protecting? You don't trust God to take care of you and your family? Are you concern about this weapon in your home with a little one there? What do you teach your members? Do you carry a gun (openly or concealed)? Do you have one in your church? How many armed guards do you have in your church? When will you take a life? If you are so worked up over the "unborn" (is not), how do you justify taking the life of the truly grown and born? Are you sure you don't need to stop and think anew, your attitude, status, position as a person and your support of the NRA? Have you forgotten:
You realize God also justified the taking of life in certain situations?
“Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.” -- Psalms 20:7
“For I will not trust in my bow, neither shall my sword save me.”-- Psalms 44:6
As a conservative, Born-again, baptized, blood-washed, blood-bought, Holy Ghost -filled, Republican, gun-owner, Trump-loving, "Bible-thumping", proud card-carrying member and supporter of NRA; why do you need them? What is this organization about? What can they give you God can't provide? Do you pray with the intruder before you shoot him, or afterward? Don't you think you would be a better witness to everyone without a gun? If you don't have a gun, why would you encourage others to carry or have one and be a member of the NRA? Then said Jesus unto him, "Put up..thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Matthew 26:52).
The organization is about protecting our Constitutional rights.
When an intruder comes to harm you or your family, remember:
"No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD" (Isaiah 54:17 ).
“In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.” Psalms 56:4
“It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.” -- Psalms 118:8
Recommit yourself to the Lord's Army--Jesus, prayer, faith, Bible studies, and trust in Divine Power. “In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me.”-- Psalms 56:4
Love the classic out of contexts and grossly misrepresented texts.
The NRA did not cause this shooting. Gun laws would not have prevented this shooting. However, you know what would have? If the FBI was more interested in doing their jobs than trying to pin down Trump every step of the way.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
The organization is about protecting our Constitutional rights.
Are you suggesting using violence against God's civil magistrate?
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
The organization is about protecting our Constitutional rights.
Are you suggesting using violence against God's civil magistrate?
????
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@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
The organization is about protecting our Constitutional rights.
Are you suggesting using violence against God's civil magistrate?
????
Do you think the purpose of the NRA is to protect the Constitution with guns if necessary?
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
The organization is about protecting our Constitutional rights.
Are you suggesting using violence against God's civil magistrate?
????
Do you think the purpose of the NRA is to protect the Constitution with guns if necessary?
The NRA is a lobby group to keep the Constitution protected by way of legislation or lack of legislation. What in the world are you talking about?
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@Dave_L said:
There are many ways to look at this tragedy. But scripture shows not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God. And that he empowers all things according to his will. Even the day of everyone's death is certain.
Dave,
The time of a person’s life on this earth is limited, and every grave speaks of this truth. Molded from the dust of the ground (Gen 2:7), one’s only opportunity is to live between birth and death (Gen 3:19, 22). However, it must be understood that death is also an eschatological event. It means, that the reversal can be and will be made only at the resurrection. This is why all hope of a life beyond the grave centers on the resurrection and resurrection alone, at the same time excluding any idea about a disembodied state. [See texts: Deut 32:39; 1 Sam 2:6; 1 Kgs 17:22; Job 14:12; 19:25-27; Pss 1:6; 16:10; 17:15; 49:15; 71:20; 73:24; 88:10; Isa 26:14,19; 53:11; 66:24; Ezek 37:10; Dan 12:2; Hos 6:2; Luke 37, 38; John 6:39, 40; 1 Cor 15:16-23].
The scholar, Murray Harris, made it crystal clear when he said, “Man is not immortal because he possesses or is a soul. He becomes immortal because God transforms him by raising him from the dead,” and “resurrection is the sole means of acquiring immortality.”
May the families of lost loved ones find hope and comfort in the resurrection. CM
Sources:
-- John F. A. Sawyer, “Hebrew Words for the Resurrection of the Dead,” VT 23 (1973): 218-234.
-- Menahem M. Kasher, Encyclopedia of Biblical Interpretation: A Millennium Anthology (New York: American Biblical Encyclopedia Society, 1953), 94.
-- Murray Harris, “Resurrection and Immortality: Eight Theses,” Themelios 1, no. 2 (Spring 1976): 53-54. -
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
The organization is about protecting our Constitutional rights.
Are you suggesting using violence against God's civil magistrate?
????
Do you think the purpose of the NRA is to protect the Constitution with guns if necessary?
The NRA is a lobby group to keep the Constitution protected by way of legislation or lack of legislation. What in the world are you talking about?
When you say "protect the Constitution" what do you mean? I can view this in several ways. Stockpiling guns just to show you can do it under the second amendment. Or launching a violent overthrow of any government that tampers with the Constitution.
So I ask, how do you define using guns to protect the Constitution?
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@C_M_ said:
@Dave_L said:
There are many ways to look at this tragedy. But scripture shows not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God. And that he empowers all things according to his will. Even the day of everyone's death is certain.
Dave,
The time of a person’s life on this earth is limited, and every grave speaks of this truth. Molded from the dust of the ground (Gen 2:7), one’s only opportunity is to live between birth and death (Gen 3:19, 22). However, it must be understood that death is also an eschatological event. It means, that the reversal can be and will be made only at the resurrection. This is why all hope of a life beyond the grave centers on the resurrection and resurrection alone, at the same time excluding any idea about a disembodied state. [See texts: Deut 32:39; 1 Sam 2:6; 1 Kgs 17:22; Job 14:12; 19:25-27; Pss 1:6; 16:10; 17:15; 49:15; 71:20; 73:24; 88:10; Isa 26:14,19; 53:11; 66:24; Ezek 37:10; Dan 12:2; Hos 6:2; Luke 37, 38; John 6:39, 40; 1 Cor 15:16-23].
The scholar, Murray Harris, made it crystal clear when he said, “Man is not immortal because he possesses or is a soul. He becomes immortal because God transforms him by raising him from the dead,” and “resurrection is the sole means of acquiring immortality.”
May the families of lost loved ones find hope and comfort in the resurrection. CM
Sources:
-- John F. A. Sawyer, “Hebrew Words for the Resurrection of the Dead,” VT 23 (1973): 218-234.
-- Menahem M. Kasher, Encyclopedia of Biblical Interpretation: A Millennium Anthology (New York: American Biblical Encyclopedia Society, 1953), 94.
-- Murray Harris, “Resurrection and Immortality: Eight Theses,” Themelios 1, no. 2 (Spring 1976): 53-54.Thanks for the comments. But what I'm saying is that there are no accidents or tragedies apart from God. Not even a sparrow drops dead apart from his will. And we need to interpret the days we live in according to this.
The message is to fear God who is bringing mayhem about as a judgement for sin, and to escape his wrath through Christ.
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
The organization is about protecting our Constitutional rights.
Are you suggesting using violence against God's civil magistrate?
????
Do you think the purpose of the NRA is to protect the Constitution with guns if necessary?
The NRA is a lobby group to keep the Constitution protected by way of legislation or lack of legislation. What in the world are you talking about?
When you say "protect the Constitution" what do you mean? I can view this in several ways. Stockpiling guns just to show you can do it under the second amendment. Or launching a violent overthrow of any government that tampers with the Constitution.
So I ask, how do you define using guns to protect the Constitution?
Honestly I would support both of those options. That is the reason for the 2nd Ammendment. To protect against enemies both foreign and domestic.
But I actually did not say use guns to protect the Constitution did I? No, what I said was the NRA exists to protect our Constitutional right to bear arms.
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
The organization is about protecting our Constitutional rights.
Are you suggesting using violence against God's civil magistrate?
????
Do you think the purpose of the NRA is to protect the Constitution with guns if necessary?
The NRA is a lobby group to keep the Constitution protected by way of legislation or lack of legislation. What in the world are you talking about?
When you say "protect the Constitution" what do you mean? I can view this in several ways. Stockpiling guns just to show you can do it under the second amendment. Or launching a violent overthrow of any government that tampers with the Constitution.
So I ask, how do you define using guns to protect the Constitution?
Honestly I would support both of those options. That is the reason for the 2nd Ammendment. To protect against enemies both foreign and domestic.
But I actually did not say use guns to protect the Constitution did I? No, what I said was the NRA exists to protect our Constitutional right to bear arms.
Thanks. But if this is the case, the NRA is then in part a "sleeper cell"? And why I originally asked about the possibility of attacking God's Civil Magistrate.
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@davidtaylorjr said:
The NRA is a lobby group to keep the Constitution protected by way of legislation or lack of legislation...
Please, David T,
What Christian in general, and Preacher, in particular, needs the NRA?
What is the NRA, ministering angels from heaven to the USA, to "keep the Constitution protected?" What about the rest of the world?What has the NRA done for Christians, at any time, in their history? What are they doing for Christians or churches today? Christians want to collect guns, and do what?
God is our protector. Why isn't He enough?What was in place before the NRA and what bearing did it had on the Christians or the churches? Why are you so BEHOLDING to this group? Is it them or the Republican Party?
The Constitution was NOT written by the finger of God and handed down to the NRA. Nor was she ordained to minister it to the American People. CM
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@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
The organization is about protecting our Constitutional rights.
Are you suggesting using violence against God's civil magistrate?
????
Do you think the purpose of the NRA is to protect the Constitution with guns if necessary?
The NRA is a lobby group to keep the Constitution protected by way of legislation or lack of legislation. What in the world are you talking about?
When you say "protect the Constitution" what do you mean? I can view this in several ways. Stockpiling guns just to show you can do it under the second amendment. Or launching a violent overthrow of any government that tampers with the Constitution.
So I ask, how do you define using guns to protect the Constitution?
Honestly I would support both of those options. That is the reason for the 2nd Ammendment. To protect against enemies both foreign and domestic.
But I actually did not say use guns to protect the Constitution did I? No, what I said was the NRA exists to protect our Constitutional right to bear arms.
Thanks. But if this is the case, the NRA is then in part a "sleeper cell"? And why I originally asked about the possibility of attacking God's Civil Magistrate.
No you are just bat crazy as usual.
@C_M_ said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
The NRA is a lobby group to keep the Constitution protected by way of legislation or lack of legislation...
Please, David T,
What Christian in general, and Preacher, in particular, needs the NRA?
What is the NRA, ministering angels from heaven to the USA, to "keep the Constitution protected?" What about the rest of the world?I don't understand your point here.
What has the NRA done for Christians, at any time, in their history? What are they doing for Christians or churches today? Christians want to collect guns, and do what?
God is our protector. Why isn't He enough?Not sure how this is relevant.
What was in place before the NRA and what bearing did it had on the Christians or the churches? Why are you so BEHOLDING to this group? Is it them or the Republican Party?
??
The Constitution was NOT written by the finger of God and handed down to the NRA. Nor was she ordained to minister it to the American People. CM
Not sure how this is relevant.
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
The organization is about protecting our Constitutional rights.
Are you suggesting using violence against God's civil magistrate?
????
Do you think the purpose of the NRA is to protect the Constitution with guns if necessary?
The NRA is a lobby group to keep the Constitution protected by way of legislation or lack of legislation. What in the world are you talking about?
When you say "protect the Constitution" what do you mean? I can view this in several ways. Stockpiling guns just to show you can do it under the second amendment. Or launching a violent overthrow of any government that tampers with the Constitution.
So I ask, how do you define using guns to protect the Constitution?
Honestly I would support both of those options. That is the reason for the 2nd Ammendment. To protect against enemies both foreign and domestic.
But I actually did not say use guns to protect the Constitution did I? No, what I said was the NRA exists to protect our Constitutional right to bear arms.
Thanks. But if this is the case, the NRA is then in part a "sleeper cell"? And why I originally asked about the possibility of attacking God's Civil Magistrate.
No you are just bat crazy as usual.
If the NRA will use violence to overthrow the Civil Magistrate, where do you as a Christian fit in?
-
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
The organization is about protecting our Constitutional rights.
Are you suggesting using violence against God's civil magistrate?
????
Do you think the purpose of the NRA is to protect the Constitution with guns if necessary?
The NRA is a lobby group to keep the Constitution protected by way of legislation or lack of legislation. What in the world are you talking about?
When you say "protect the Constitution" what do you mean? I can view this in several ways. Stockpiling guns just to show you can do it under the second amendment. Or launching a violent overthrow of any government that tampers with the Constitution.
So I ask, how do you define using guns to protect the Constitution?
Honestly I would support both of those options. That is the reason for the 2nd Ammendment. To protect against enemies both foreign and domestic.
But I actually did not say use guns to protect the Constitution did I? No, what I said was the NRA exists to protect our Constitutional right to bear arms.
Thanks. But if this is the case, the NRA is then in part a "sleeper cell"? And why I originally asked about the possibility of attacking God's Civil Magistrate.
No you are just bat crazy as usual.
If the NRA will use violence to overthrow the Civil Magistrate, where do you as a Christian fit in?
Dave the NRA is not an army. You are using outrageous ideas. Let me ask you this, what is your opinion of the American Revolution?
-
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
@Dave_L said:
@davidtaylorjr said:
The organization is about protecting our Constitutional rights.
Are you suggesting using violence against God's civil magistrate?
????
Do you think the purpose of the NRA is to protect the Constitution with guns if necessary?
The NRA is a lobby group to keep the Constitution protected by way of legislation or lack of legislation. What in the world are you talking about?
When you say "protect the Constitution" what do you mean? I can view this in several ways. Stockpiling guns just to show you can do it under the second amendment. Or launching a violent overthrow of any government that tampers with the Constitution.
So I ask, how do you define using guns to protect the Constitution?
Honestly I would support both of those options. That is the reason for the 2nd Ammendment. To protect against enemies both foreign and domestic.
But I actually did not say use guns to protect the Constitution did I? No, what I said was the NRA exists to protect our Constitutional right to bear arms.
Thanks. But if this is the case, the NRA is then in part a "sleeper cell"? And why I originally asked about the possibility of attacking God's Civil Magistrate.
No you are just bat crazy as usual.
If the NRA will use violence to overthrow the Civil Magistrate, where do you as a Christian fit in?
Dave the NRA is not an army. You are using outrageous ideas. Let me ask you this, what is your opinion of the American Revolution?
I don't think the NRA is an army. But I feel uneasy with your position of defending the Constitution with force if they think it necessary. What about the American Revolution? Would you have prefered the killing of British Christians or the killing of Colonial "revolutionary" Christians?
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